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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by BarbaraCat on August 29, 2003, at 14:12:52
In reply to Hysteria in Tsunami! » fluffy, posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 1:01:02
Dearest Katia,
If you were feeling waaaaay up and nasty, you'd be surfing that tsunami like a bronco. But you're not, you're tired and heartbroken and you've been under such a seige. This stuff is so hard on the body and soul. It's like a thought or a body feeling starts somewhere and then this toxic chemistry takes over and spins it into this tornado (or tsunami - wonderful analogy!).First of all, what you're in sounds like a mixed state, pure and simple. If you can trace the beginning of it to taking Depakote, well then, seems pretty clear to me. It might be destabilizing you. Who the hell knows why since it's supposed to be doing the opposite. But we BP's are such delicate creatures with crossed wires all over the place. In reading over your posts, dear Katia, it's my observation that there's a chemical fire going on in your brain, and it's a very recent one.
There have been a few posts on here that say that Zyprexa will cut the shit you're going through in 30 minutes or so. Not to be taken daily or anything, just when these waves of zsdk%%!##^f!!! engulf you. I don't know what your insurance situation is, but you know that you've got to get some help about all this, and soon. You've been suffering like this too long, Katia. Ultra rapid cycling. Something ain't right with you med combo. I'd be pounding on someone's door and insisting on help, real honest to God HELP – right now!! I'm not telling you anything you don't know, this is just my observation as a concerned buddy whose been there way too many times. Taking 1 or 2 benzos helped during the worst of it, but ultimately it turned out to be the other meds I was taking and the FEAR that took over that has it's own life. I thought it was panic attacks, but have come to recognize it as mixed states (same thing as panic, I suppose). I can't encourage you enough to NOT DRINK during this time and get yourself some righteous benzos.
Right now, you're in that maelstrom, holding on. It's hard to see anything outside that whirling black energy because it takes over and you're engulfed in it. But you know that there is life outside that hellish place. There's also your wise and calm self, that strong and beautiful blessed being who is You and who lovingly looks upon and holds everything with compassion and calmness. I know you have spiritual practice, but if you're anything like me, it goes out the window when I'm in terror, so here's a reminder and something that works for me.
If you can ask yourself the question 'Who is it that's having this experience of terror, fear, etc.', then you can begin to separate yourself from the experience itself and the frightened one having it, and realize that there is Someone/Something observing and asking that question. That Someone is the You who witnesses all without judging, who is not tossed about by anything, who is connected to Source and always, always is there - for it is You. When we're in the loud blaring static of our pain, it's hard to feel that connection, but it's there and it's where healing and the wisdom of knowing what's best for you resides. If you can grok that there is a consciousness separate from your pain who is watching and asking that question and then move back just one step into the safe presence of that calm being, you've moved out of the hurricane and into it's calm eye. You can then step back just one more step to observe what your Witness sees, and perhaps merge with it, to view the whirlwind of your mind from a place of centered compassion and out of the spin cycle. You can safely rest in that unflappable presence, and just watch, removed from the immediate terror of it. There truly is safety there, if I could only convince you of this now when you probably don't trust that anything will help. The worst of it hits when fear takes over and fear is mindless emotion that feeds on itself.
The idea behind this practice is to reach a place that has no spinning emotion but is able to observe dispassionately and yet compassionately. This place of quiet observation will also enable you to take good care of yourself, tell you when to use the turn blinker in the car, make that phone call, pay that bill, etc – be mindful. This practice of dissociating from the wobbles (bobbles?) of the spin cycle and taking refuge in the calm unchanging centerpoint stops that fear spin in its tracks. Simply by asking 'who is it that's having this experience?' and then identifying with the asker. You'll also find yourself wondering Who it is that's having the experience. The experience is not You and the frightened experiencer is also not You. You are something much bigger, and awsome, and not afraid of anything. Remembering this can help get you through the bad times. We need to get our meds straightened out, but they can't do it all for us. I've found this to be a worthy practice to cultivate for all the time (when I can remember to do it).
I don't know if you pray, or who you pray to, but if you don't have a Diety or anything like that, praying to Life to help you to withstand and understand it's many lessons helps. Hang in there and God go with you, dear friend. And lose that feeling of no friends, no one likes you, etc. That's just your fearful mind talking, not real, and the least of what you need to concentrate on right now. Just call out, your Babble-Buddies will be there for you. Aren't you glad you have friends who know what the f**ck you're going through (and love you all the more because you know what the f**ck we go through)? - Barbara
Posted by fluffy on August 29, 2003, at 14:56:44
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami! » fluffy, posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 13:47:10
Hey Katia--
I know what you mean about leaning on friends. I only tell you because I know I felt like a burden to my friends during my last full episode, but they helped me through some really really rough spots. Some people shyed away from me b/c they were scared of me--seeing me not well. They didn't understand. But SOME of my friends came through with flying colors. And I can't tell you how important those people are to me now. You may feel like a burden, but I'm sure there are a couple of trusted friends who would be able to see you through at least some of this.
When I felt like you are feeling now (newly diagnosed and not over a major depression) I often wished that the "friends" who were like--"ick--she doesn't seem well--she's depressed--like, she's crazy--she cracked up--can you believe it?", I wished they knew what it was like to be me and to deal with what was on my plate. (the mean side of me wanted "the cheese to slide off of their cracker" and see how they felt!!--maybe give them an empathetic bone). Basically, through my ordeal I was able to tell who the real friends were, and who the true humanitarians were (or at least, the friends to lean on and the friends to just say "hi" to).
Sometimes I would just have to get away from everyone and just cry and cry until I couldn't cry anymore. The only other thing I could manage to do most of the time was chain-smoke and knit. But in between, there was a wonderful friend who was even able to stomach my admission that I was feeling suicidal. She didn't blink--just told me that if I felt that way again to make sure and call her, or call my pdoc right away.
So if you have a friend that you think can take it, then give him/her a whirl if you really need to lean on someone. (and try not to feel guilty--it's hard!!)
As to your medication, I hope your doctor can help you to find what will work best for you. Please keep our little support group updated.
The psychobabblers are here for you always!*sniff*
take care
Katy
Posted by fluffy on August 29, 2003, at 15:12:29
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami! » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on August 29, 2003, at 14:12:52
Katia--
Barb-cat's advice is good (about separating yourself from what you're feeling). Hard to do, but I think that's how I got through my alone times experiencing mixed symptoms. Barb-cat knows how to put that stuff into words!! I'm going to try to remember that next spell I have.
Both you guys rock!
Katy
Posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 15:18:00
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami! » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on August 29, 2003, at 14:12:52
> First of all, what you're in sounds like a mixed state, pure and simple.
The odd thing about "mixed states" is that it really was like a Tsunami. It came quickly and went quickly(ish). I slept the night thru' and have woken up feeling mildly/mod low, but nothing like last night. yes, I know alcohol played a part in it. But i have had one-two drinks previously in the week and did not have this reaction.
>If you can trace the beginning of it to taking Depakote, well then, seems pretty clear to me. It might be destabilizing you. Who the hell knows why since it's supposed to be doing the opposite. But we BP's are such delicate creatures with crossed wires all over the place.
Well, the beginning of Depakote made me racy and my pdoc said to ramp it up to 500mg (the min. therapeutic level). I felt something happening, something stable-like interspersed with mild highs and mild lows. Some trouble sleeping (you know all about it - trouble falling asleep due to the nightowl in me and then periodic waking and then sleeping soundly thru' the morning 'til noonish). I can't have a life like this. So maybe I still need to go up further on the Dep. I'll call my pdoc today.
>>In reading over your posts, dear Katia, it's my observation that there's a chemical fire going on in your brain, and it's a very recent one.
See, for me, it feels like I've been cycling like this "chemical fire in my brain" for years. This doesn't feel new to me. again, maybe if I up the Depakote, I'll even out more.
> There have been a few posts on here that say that Zyprexa will cut the shit you're going through in 30 minutes or so. Not to be taken daily or anything, just when these waves of zsdk%%!##^f!!! engulf you. I don't know what your insurance situation is, but you know that you've got to get some help about all this, and soon. You've been suffering like this too long, Katia.
I know - it's time to be content and at peace!!!!! The thing about taking a benzo is that my moods swing so quickly that it's over with by the time the benzo probably sets in. I can ask about it. My insurance is none. I pay out of pocket - an empty pocket that is.
>>Taking 1 or 2 benzos helped during the worst of it, but ultimately it turned out to be the other meds I was taking and the FEAR that took over that has it's own life. I thought it was panic attacks, but have come to recognize it as mixed states (same thing as panic, I suppose). I can't encourage you enough to NOT DRINK during this time and get yourself some righteous benzos.
Barbara, I'm not sure because emotions are masked in so many different ways, but I can't help but feel like my main issue is utter despair. It's not so much fear as simply utter despair, with high energy.
I totally agree with you about the no drinking bit.
In regards to the witness stance, I know about this and do practice this too and it has helped me over the years get perspective (more than just perspective). Thanks so much for your lengthy guidance in that. Much much appreciated! I always have a hard time distinguishing between witnesses and repressing. Sometime, these wild emotions need a voice and when I step to witness, it diminishes it somewhat. Which is the point and is probably good, but I think I feel frustrated because I don't have an outlet for these wild emotions. They need to come out.
I'm trying to find healthy ways to do this.
anyway, there's so much to it. figuring all this out. And on top of it, i'm sick todeath of being alone. But i isolate myself because I can't let anyone see me go thru' this and when I have, I've ended up ruining some fantastic relationships or started unhealthy ones that got out of hand. So I isolate myself out of fear of how to BE like this in front of someone. Will I ever sort this out?????
anyway, thank you so much for your care and concern and kind words.
Katia
Posted by Ponder on August 29, 2003, at 15:47:29
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami! » fluffy, posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 13:47:10
Katia,
Hypersensitivity to real or imagined rejection is actually a bipolar trait (yes, this IS a cruel disease). Somehow it helps me to know that, even though the feelings persist. I think it helps with that distancing that Barbara talks about--recognize that the illness is not you and that your current perceptions are a part of the illness, not an accurate reflection of reality.There was even an interesting little study about how bipolar people perceive facial expressions differently from non-bipolars. We are like the control group in our perceptions with one interesting exception--we are WAY more likely to pick up on an expression of disgust. Even a split second of someone else feeling disgusted registers with us. Mind you, it may have nothing to do with us. The person may be having a momentary flashback to a bad moment with their boss, or a conflict with a neighbor. But we see it and usually feel certain that we are the cause and object.
I agree, by the way, that what you are experiencing is a mixed state. The irritability, quick temper, and general emotional hyperreactivity is a give-away, especially since it is out-of-character for you.
You are remarkably articulate and expressive, particularly considering what you're going through at this time. It tells me you have a lot of internal resources to draw on. You should also know that you are making valuable contributions to all of us on this board. Your personality, courage and insight come through strongly in your posts.
About calling the doctor: I find that I have the hardest time calling my doctor when I am feeling the worst and need his help the most. I don't quite understand that dynamic. Part of it is the general tendency to withdraw, but sometimes I also fear that he will be disappointed in me because I haven't responded better to his treatment choices (like it's my fault, somehow) or that he'll be disgusted with me. :-) Anyway, I know the feeling, but would like to chime in with your other friends on the board in encouraging you to call in the calgary, your doctor being first in line.
Posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 16:06:13
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami! » katia, posted by Ponder on August 29, 2003, at 15:47:29
Hi Ponder,
I feel so supported! It's great.
Yes, I can sense that my reactions are overly exaggerated and I'm hypersensitive. That's why I tend to withdraw sometimes and brood over the fact that "no one loves me :-(" Because part of me realizes how irrational I"m being and does not want to draw friends into this turmoil. But there comes a time (like today) when I just need to say something about how a "friend" has hurt me - regardless if I'm being overly sensitive or not. And it does diminsh that energy - that energy that feeds off isolation of "no one loves me or I could die and no one would miss me,etc.".In regards to calling the pdoc, I too get that resistance!!! I felt it today but forced myself to call him. I stuttered and mind went blank as to what I actually had been going thru' but I think I got the point across as I had written down things before the call so as not to forget. I, too, when in the face of the doctor forget totally about my struggles and put on a face. I think it comes from years and years of having two worlds. One face of internal suffering and one external of putting on the right face for the situation because I can't show what a lunatic I really am!!! "hold on until I get alone and then let the lunatic out!"
anyway, it's also about honoring what I'm feeling and taking it seriously and then being able to portray this to the doctor and friends/family. For so many years, I've learned to hide what I'm feeling, even to myself, and to not take what I'm feeling seriously and forgetting about it.
Ponder thanks for your supportive words!
Katia
> Katia,
> Hypersensitivity to real or imagined rejection is actually a bipolar trait (yes, this IS a cruel disease). Somehow it helps me to know that, even though the feelings persist. I think it helps with that distancing that Barbara talks about--recognize that the illness is not you and that your current perceptions are a part of the illness, not an accurate reflection of reality.
>
> There was even an interesting little study about how bipolar people perceive facial expressions differently from non-bipolars. We are like the control group in our perceptions with one interesting exception--we are WAY more likely to pick up on an expression of disgust. Even a split second of someone else feeling disgusted registers with us. Mind you, it may have nothing to do with us. The person may be having a momentary flashback to a bad moment with their boss, or a conflict with a neighbor. But we see it and usually feel certain that we are the cause and object.
>
> I agree, by the way, that what you are experiencing is a mixed state. The irritability, quick temper, and general emotional hyperreactivity is a give-away, especially since it is out-of-character for you.
>
> You are remarkably articulate and expressive, particularly considering what you're going through at this time. It tells me you have a lot of internal resources to draw on. You should also know that you are making valuable contributions to all of us on this board. Your personality, courage and insight come through strongly in your posts.
>
> About calling the doctor: I find that I have the hardest time calling my doctor when I am feeling the worst and need his help the most. I don't quite understand that dynamic. Part of it is the general tendency to withdraw, but sometimes I also fear that he will be disappointed in me because I haven't responded better to his treatment choices (like it's my fault, somehow) or that he'll be disgusted with me. :-) Anyway, I know the feeling, but would like to chime in with your other friends on the board in encouraging you to call in the calgary, your doctor being first in line.
Posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 16:15:31
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami!, posted by fluffy on August 29, 2003, at 14:56:44
Hi Katy,
As far as friends go; yes I get that. And the weeds are trimmed away quickly. One friend in particular - I feel she is a good friend, but (is it my hypersensitivity or is it real???) she sometimes feels to me like she doesn't really believe that I'm suffering from an illness = bipolar/depression. I asked her about once and she said "the important thing is that YOU believe it". Sounds not too supportive eh? I responded by saying "no, it's important for other's to take this seriously and validate it as such for some understanding and compassion". She's had quite a good and charmed life and is so stable that she just can't understand it. And i think unless the "cheese slides off people's crackers" they WON'T get it. There is that whole misconception of "you can snap out of it - we all go thru' depressed periods" "work it out in therapy" i have tried the latter and it doesn't work without meds. So part of my not reaching out is I don't want more salt to the wound by people not understanding and actually making light of what I'm going thru'. I don't need insult to injury.
It's a tough one. My motto in life is "no one understands me or sees me for who I am!". (are you familiar with the Enneagram? I "do" a four very strongly.
anyway fluffers, thanks for being there!
how's your first day on Lithium?
Katia
> When I felt like you are feeling now (newly diagnosed and not over a major depression) I often wished that the "friends" who were like--"ick--she doesn't seem well--she's depressed--like, she's crazy--she cracked up--can you believe it?", I wished they knew what it was like to be me and to deal with what was on my plate. (the mean side of me wanted "the cheese to slide off of their cracker" and see how they felt!!--maybe give them an empathetic bone). Basically, through my ordeal I was able to tell who the real friends were, and who the true humanitarians were (or at least, the friends to lean on and the friends to just say "hi" to).
>
> Sometimes I would just have to get away from everyone and just cry and cry until I couldn't cry anymore. The only other thing I could manage to do most of the time was chain-smoke and knit. But in between, there was a wonderful friend who was even able to stomach my admission that I was feeling suicidal. She didn't blink--just told me that if I felt that way again to make sure and call her, or call my pdoc right away.
>
> So if you have a friend that you think can take it, then give him/her a whirl if you really need to lean on someone. (and try not to feel guilty--it's hard!!)
>
> As to your medication, I hope your doctor can help you to find what will work best for you. Please keep our little support group updated.
> The psychobabblers are here for you always!
>
> *sniff*
> take care
> Katy
>
Posted by fluffy on August 29, 2003, at 16:59:24
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami! » fluffy, posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 16:15:31
Hey Katia--
Yup--I hear you loud and clear about the friend support/understanding issue. I had a friend who kept suggesting that I stop my meds (even though she knew I had just been diagnosed bipolar---AND SHE"S A FREAKING PSYCHOLOGIST!) It really helps to have someone objective, friend or not to believe that there is something chemical and physical going on, and that it needs to be corrected (first and foremost) with meds. With time, I'm sure you'll find that someone will understand this beyond your doctor. Not everyone in the world is a sh*t-head!
You know--I'm a '4' on the Enneagram scale, too!! My friend who helped me (through the suicidal crud) is a '4' too. I forget what my "wings" are, though. I haven't read any of that stuff, but my friend "diagnosed" me as a #4. I'd say it fits like a glove.
Lithium is ok, i guess. I'm nowhere near a blood level to tell if it's working or if I'll tolerate it. I'm having these weird salty burps...eeeew!
I'll keep you posted.Katy
Posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 20:36:51
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami!, posted by fluffy on August 29, 2003, at 16:59:24
Wow, that's pretty impressive that your psychologist friend encouraged you to stop the meds. What was her reasoning?
People really don't understand it. For me, I was at my end and medication was the only thing left. If meds don't work, then I'll have to resort to something else. Who knows what that'll be. I contacted my pdoc and he said (all answering machine stuff) that since we have an appt. next week, it's too lengthy to get into over the phone; this is the trickiest part - finding the right med. He said from my message, he says that there is a gray area between Mixed? or depressed? and he wasn't sure which it was with me. he told me to take all my medication at night instead of two times per day. because I was also complaining about always being tired; whether I'm having a good or bad day. Anyway, I see him in one week, so I do that and just see how I go.
as far as the enneagram. I scored a definite 4. I read it and almost cried. It was like someone called my bluff. A bluff I didn't know i had on a conscious level. The very close second was a 7. So it's quite interesting b/c at first I thought "what absolute opposites!" pre-dx of BP. and now it makes sense. The seven extrovert enthusiast who gets involved in lots of things, but never finishes them and the four, meloncholic, artist, tragic victim, romantic, "special one" whom no one understands. its' really interesting.
take care Katy,
Katia
p.s. how old are you?> Hey Katia--
>
> Yup--I hear you loud and clear about the friend support/understanding issue. I had a friend who kept suggesting that I stop my meds (even though she knew I had just been diagnosed bipolar---AND SHE"S A FREAKING PSYCHOLOGIST!) It really helps to have someone objective, friend or not to believe that there is something chemical and physical going on, and that it needs to be corrected (first and foremost) with meds. With time, I'm sure you'll find that someone will understand this beyond your doctor. Not everyone in the world is a sh*t-head!
>
> You know--I'm a '4' on the Enneagram scale, too!! My friend who helped me (through the suicidal crud) is a '4' too. I forget what my "wings" are, though. I haven't read any of that stuff, but my friend "diagnosed" me as a #4. I'd say it fits like a glove.
>
> Lithium is ok, i guess. I'm nowhere near a blood level to tell if it's working or if I'll tolerate it. I'm having these weird salty burps...eeeew!
> I'll keep you posted.
>
> Katy
Posted by katia on August 30, 2003, at 0:50:14
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami!, posted by fluffy on August 29, 2003, at 11:02:29
HI Katy,
You mention it's been seven months since your dx of bp. and you also mentioned some med trial runs that were unsuccessful. What were they?
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 30, 2003, at 2:43:50
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami! » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on August 29, 2003, at 15:18:00
>>It's not so much fear as simply utter despair, with high energy.
**Yeah, sounds like mixed states. Welcome to the 'worst kind of bipolar or any other mental state' club. Truly, that's what 'they' say! At least you know it doesn't get worse than this and it sounds like you have a rapid cycling kind where you at least get a breather. Pity poor me who had to go through it year after year for months on end, no relief, no good days, only doom and panic. I marvel I'm still here.
The fear enters in when the despair and high energy turn into panic because you don't know what the hell is going on. I had no idea what was happening to me, that there was a name for it. I only knew that it didn't sound like any garden variety depression I'd ever heard of and the garden variety depression drugs were making it worse. I forget who said 'If you can name it, you can tame it'. I can't tell you how relieved I was the day I realized I had Bipolar Mixed States and was not instead lost and wandering around in Edgar Allen Poe's brain.
>>I think I feel frustrated because I don't have an outlet for these wild emotions. They need to come out. I'm trying to find healthy ways to do this.
**How about some bhastrika pranyama? Forgive me for explaining since I'm sure you know it, but any of those reading might be interested in how it's done cause it's a great release. It's known as the 'bellows breath'.
You sit or kneel with knees lower than hips so that your abdomen isn't compressed and raise your arms over your head with hands facing front and fingers spread open wide. All breathing is done from the nose. You vigorously pull your hands down in front of your shoulders closing them into fists and contracting the stomach to whoosh the air out of your nose.
Reach up while inhaling and filling the abdomen and lungs and spreading fingers open like in the beginning. The up and down makes one rep. It's like a bellows where you use the arms to pump the air in and out of the lungs. The whooshing out breath is emphasized cause it makes the correct inhale a natural response. It's moderately rapid with each rep lasting about 1 second. One breath cycle is 24 reps with 3 slow deep breaths in between each cycle. After about the 4th or 5th cycle I'm usually crying like a baby and rolling around on the floor kicking and drooling and IT FEELS SO GOOD to wring that crap out and get the oxygen in!!!
Posted by fluffy on August 30, 2003, at 12:06:53
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami! » fluffy, posted by katia on August 30, 2003, at 0:50:14
> HI Katy,
> You mention it's been seven months since your dx of bp. and you also mentioned some med trial runs that were unsuccessful. What were they?
> KatiaHey Katia--
Forgive me if I'm sounding like a broken record, and for the lengthy explanation....
When I first started suspecting BP instead of major depression, I was already taking Lexapro, which was spinning me into mixed states almost "24-7". (this was in October, actually--so I guess it's been longer than 7 months) If they were anything as intense as Barb-cat's, then I'm surprised she tolerated it for as long as she did.
Barb-cat--you are one hell of a trooper!!
Then, I expressed to my pdoc that I wasn't sleeping for nights on end, was feeling suicidal and "agitated" and on the verge of feeling violent, he calmly prescribed another SSRI for me--Zoloft, and added on 100mg of Neurontin. (big help that was!) Well I started having the same mixed feelings 3 weeks into it.
Like Barb-cat, I basically diagnosed myself, as my arrogant psychiatrist was not listening to my reactions to the SSRI's. I went to this board for help, and I was sure after reading others' posts and hearing descriptions of "mixed states" that I'd experienced them before, w/o the "aid" of antidepressants.
I called my pdoc in tears and told him I was feeling suicidal and "jumpy". After telling him my theory that I might possibly be BPII at my next appt., he prescribed 100mg Tegretol (basically, air) and instructed me to get my blood levels tested.
At this point (I think this is where I was feeling like you right now) I was completely confused, disheartened, deeply depressed. I decided to not get my blood tested, and I thought "f*ck psychiatry to bloody hell!" I went a couple more months, feeling nothing and decided to find the clinic I'm now going to. I continued to ramp up the Tegretol, but just felt depressed still.
Then I tried Lamictal for the past 5 months, which has been the most promising yet--SOMETHING happened--unlike the other meds just making things worse or not working at all. Now I'm trying Li to get a full remission of my symptoms. Hopefully it will work.
So in short, here's my history, FWIW:
1st major depressive episode, no panic symptoms, (19 yrs. old)
--no meds2nd episode with panic attacks, short-lived depressive episode (24 yrs. old)
--no meds3rd episode with panic, mixed states, major depressive episode (26 yrs. old)
--Paxil (1 yr)4th episode, with first clear hypomanic eurphoric state, followed by mixed states and a major depression (28-29 yrs. old)
--Lexapro (5 weeks)
--Zoloft, Neurontin (3 weeks)
--Tegretol 200mg (2 months)--Lamictal 200mg (5 months)
--Lithium ???I'm 29 years old now, and I've been going through med trials intensively for almost a year. trying to resolve the most recent and devistating episode, working towards remission (hope! hope!)
As to my psychologist friend who suggested I quit my meds...Well, she's known me practically my whole life, and I think it's hard for her to accept that over time, I'd become more critically ill. And being a psychologist, "talk therapy" is supposed to overcome depression. She is very uncompliant with ANY medication, so I think she was projecting her fear of medications onto me. Needless to say, I don't consult here anymore when I'm frustrated!!
Anyway--I hope this helps!
Best of luck,Katy
Posted by fluffy on August 30, 2003, at 12:10:46
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami! » fluffy, posted by katia on August 30, 2003, at 0:50:14
Katia--
Oh yeah--I forgot to say that the clinic I'm going to now is a mood disorders clinic, and they confirmed my diagnosis of BPII.
What is your history, Katia? I recall it being similar in terms of meds you tried. How old are you? If you feel like explaining it, I'm curious to know.
Katy
Posted by katia on August 30, 2003, at 14:06:26
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami! » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on August 30, 2003, at 2:43:50
> **Yeah, sounds like mixed states. Welcome to the 'worst kind of bipolar or any other mental state' club. Truly, that's what 'they' say! At least you know it doesn't get worse than this and it sounds like you have a rapid cycling kind where you at least get a breather.It really varies Barb. Which is why it's been so tough for me to dx.
>>Pity poor me who had to go through it year after year for months on end, no relief, no good days, only doom and panic. I marvel I'm still here.
Yes, I marvel that I am still here too. After years of not being able to "name it nor tame it", I know what you mean.
thanks for the bellow's breath, I'll give it a try. I mean more of a creative outlet. I'm having trouble finding that and feel stuck and frustrated/blocked.
I recently just heard on another post that depakote can cause PCOS (poly cystic ovarian syndrome), which can basically mean BARREN. I want kids one day and especially with my history of heartbreaking pregnancies, I can't gamble with this one. have you heard about this?
Katia
Posted by katia on August 30, 2003, at 14:33:34
In reply to Re: Hysteria in Tsunami!, posted by fluffy on August 30, 2003, at 12:10:46
Hi Katy,
NO, forgive ME for having to ask again. My memory is zilch; I'm surprised I'm even making it thru' this life on my own!I'm recently 33 yrs. old.
My depression/mood history: (and ALL this time, i was never diagnosed or treated until last summer).11 yrs. old - first major depression after/during summer camp
Teenage depression starting around 13.
First "manic" episode at 17 - spring semester of senior year going into summer.
18 - first year at college - major depression. A distinct mood change from the previous six or so months.
apart from few brief moments of feeling "normal", i've been increasingly getting more and more depressed and disabled as the years go by.
19-20 depressed.
21 - went into a nice content clear headed phase and then I think I went hypomanic/mixed during the winter; came crashing into a depression.
21-23 mixed. depression.
23 yr. old found myself in France with beautiful french lover working at a ski resort - felt WONDERFUL. and felt intermittently/paradoxically sad all at the same time.
24-major crisis pushed me into the first real suicidal depression and I stayed there for years - never really to recover - brief periods where it went to something milder like "dsythimia (sp?".
25-28 I travelled a lot running from it - even joined the Peace Corps and went to Siberia. Fell into another horrible depression that winter.
blah blah blah more travelling more love affairs....
finally made my way back to U.S. in 98' when I was 28 and was again deeply depressed.
By 2000, I started grad school and I couldn't "shake this thing".
By 2001, I met another foreign man - Scottish, dated him for six months and then picked up and left to live in Scotland with him for a brief while. It was horrendous. My mild/mod depressive state was turning to severe that fall as I was in grad school/doing a yoga teacher training and working in wine sales! (and maintaining this relationship). I crashed when Igot to the U.K. in the DEAD of winter. I could barely pull myself out of bed; cry cry cry, crawl to the shower to get up; drank, fought, and you know what else with him. It was completely insane. I was wild. I even challenged him with his own sword one night (he's a black belt). I tried to rip my own throat out with my fingernails, right in front of him. I was in such such agony and he was NO help thinking that it was him and "us" causing me such grief - big ego thing. not being able to see that I needed serious help.
anyway, after the end of four months, I found out I was pregnant and he sent me home with a one way ticket to Cal. I was catapulted to the DEEPEST of hells ever imaginable. The only place for me to go was to a "friend's" house, who really didn't want me there and we are now no longer friends. Iwon't even begin to describe here what depths of hell I entered last summer; but needless to say that did it for me. I knew w/o a doubt I needed to get professional help.
med history:
Celexa 10 weeks - nada. just insomnia/a slight raise for one day maybe and then I came crashing again.
Effexor - four months. It worked at first, but in a "wierd" way. basically I was hypo/mixed on it. So it got me up and moving that's for sure.
Zoloft - 3 months. made me a zombieeeeeeee.
Serzone - 2 months? As soon as I started it, I went zippy hypo. And that made me realize that I'm probably BP. I was at overworked clinics and no one was paying attention to me, so I took out more student loans and went to a private pdoc.
And so here I am trying out Depakote.
So that's my history (in short - if you can believe it!).
Katia
Posted by fluffy on August 30, 2003, at 15:24:15
In reply to Histoire de Katia » fluffy, posted by katia on August 30, 2003, at 14:33:34
Wow Katia-
Interesting to hear your experiences (I know they were painful to you--thank you for sharing that stuff)
I'd definitely say that you're on the right track as far as your treatment goes. From what you've told me, it sounds as though the BP diagnosis fits (personal history coupled with your reactions to anti-depressants). I'm no doc, but I have faith that you'll get a response from a mood stabilizer.
I can't say that my manic episodes are similar. "My" manias consist of a flurry of activities (like too many home improvement projects), increased energy, quick thoughts. When it's been its most severe, I've told people off, written bad things about friends or important people in my career on message boards (that they all read!--completely ruined career connections and friendships), planned parties for everyone I knew, drank 3-4 nights a week, in love with 2-3 guys at a time....etc...
Have you read "And Unquiet Mind" yet? It's required reading for the newly diagnosed. (in my opinion)
keep in touch,
katy
Posted by fluffy on August 30, 2003, at 15:33:11
In reply to Re: Histoire de Katia, posted by fluffy on August 30, 2003, at 15:24:15
Hi Barb-cat--
I re-read your post about your experiences with Li. So can I infer that you had some annoying side effects that went away over time (on that dose)?
I've been on this stuff for 2 days, and my head feels a little fuzzy. I don't much like the feeling--it's hard to explain--not SLEEPY--just weird. A bit nauseous. Did the fuzzy head thing fade? I know it's only been two days--I can be patient. When I read about Lithium, it sounds like ---you tolerate it, or you don't---. I don't hear about side effects fading over time.
Hope you are doing well,
Katy
Posted by katia on August 30, 2003, at 15:33:35
In reply to Re: Histoire de Katia, posted by fluffy on August 30, 2003, at 15:24:15
> Wow Katia-
>
> Interesting to hear your experiences (I know they were painful to you--thank you for sharing that stuff)
>
> I'd definitely say that you're on the right track as far as your treatment goes. From what you've told me, it sounds as though the BP diagnosis fits (personal history coupled with your reactions to anti-depressants). I'm no doc, but I have faith that you'll get a response from a mood stabilizer.
>
> I can't say that my manic episodes are similar. "My" manias consist of a flurry of activities (like too many home improvement projects), increased energy, quick thoughts. When it's been its most severe, I've told people off, written bad things about friends or important people in my career on message boards (that they all read!--completely ruined career connections and friendships), planned parties for everyone I knew, drank 3-4 nights a week, in love with 2-3 guys at a time....etc...
>
> Have you read "And Unquiet Mind" yet? It's required reading for the newly diagnosed. (in my opinion)
>
> keep in touch,
> katyHi Katy,
I have read An Unquiet Mind ironically enough about eight years ago! Something was drawing me to read stuff like that; but it just took me this long to wake up to it within myself.You're "highs" sound very similar to mine. I can't tell you how many friends I've lost due to my irrational reactions!!!!
As far as treatment goes, I'm ready to throw in the bag with Depakote. I just read the it can cause PCOS (polycystic ovarian syndrome) which can cause infertility and a host of other things.
Have you heard this? Maybe I'll be joing the Li/Lam chain gang soon!
Katia
Posted by fluffy on August 30, 2003, at 16:10:13
In reply to Re: Histoire de Katia » fluffy, posted by katia on August 30, 2003, at 15:33:35
Hey Katia--
I have heard about the PCOS thing. I don't think it ALWAYS happens. And I wonder if PCOS always makes a woman infertile?? I was just tested out for that very thing (to research if Lamictal does the same). I'm sure there are warning signs if you start to develop it (cramps, bleeding). And maybe it goes away if you discontinue? Make a list and ask your doctor. Depakote has been around awhile, so I'm sure there are stats on the PCOS thing.
Don't throw in the towel yet. How is your mood now? ( Aside from the tsunami?)
take care,
katy
Posted by katia on August 30, 2003, at 20:57:06
In reply to Re: Histoire de Katia, posted by fluffy on August 30, 2003, at 16:10:13
I won't stop taking it yet. I'll talk to my pdoc about it. I have had ovarian cysts before and I have pains in my abdomen. So who knows!? My mood today? It feels ridiculous, but i feel I have no friends, no one loves me, people only call me when they're desperate and have nothing else to do or need something, everyone else has a life but me, lonesome, etc. I hate holidays, no matter what form. They just remind me of how alone I am in this world. That's how I feel today.
I'm irritable too. I just took a yoga class and I couldn't relax in the savasana because some woman had the loudest nose/breathing and it annoyed me to no end. It ignited anger, hatred, a feeling of being caged/trapped/nowhere to go; I just wanted to cry out of frustration for being me. I just wanted to go and punch her and ask her how dare she take a yoga class with such a noisy nose! This is the insanity I'm talking about. It's no fun to be me. Is this obsessive disorder? What is with me??????
So that's my mood today.
and you>?
Katia
> Hey Katia--
>
> I have heard about the PCOS thing. I don't think it ALWAYS happens. And I wonder if PCOS always makes a woman infertile?? I was just tested out for that very thing (to research if Lamictal does the same). I'm sure there are warning signs if you start to develop it (cramps, bleeding). And maybe it goes away if you discontinue? Make a list and ask your doctor. Depakote has been around awhile, so I'm sure there are stats on the PCOS thing.
>
> Don't throw in the towel yet. How is your mood now? ( Aside from the tsunami?)
>
> take care,
> katy
Posted by fluffy on August 31, 2003, at 12:08:05
In reply to Re: Histoire de Katia » fluffy, posted by katia on August 30, 2003, at 20:57:06
Hey Katia--
Glad to hear you won't discontinue the Depakote--Boy do I know how tempting it is to just chuck it all. Seems like it would feel good sometimes. But the alternative--living with feeling horribly depressed and pissing people off around you---well it ain't pretty. It's especially tempting when it seems the meds aren't doing a hill of beans worth of good.
It sounds as if you are experiencing a classic, agitated depression--a state that I know well. (you're probably like--duh!!). I had to laugh about the loud breathing thing. Usually for me, my boyfriend is the target--what he's wearing, how he's walking, what his voice sounds like--AAARRGH! That's a horrible way to veiw the world. I hope you feel better really soon Katia. I guess you'll see your doc soon?
So guess what?? I'm feeling NORMAL today--yeah--NORMAL. Pretty fuckin' cool, huh? The first two days of Li made me think that I don't want to take this stuff--I wouldn't want to feel like I did those past couple of days every day of my life, that's for sure. But I think I was overblowing the side effects b/c I honestly didn't want to take the stuff even though it could help. In fact, I had much worse side effects with Paxil. So it seems the side effects have subsided already. Just a word of warning if you ever take it. The first few days SUCK. I was all confused and disconnected--my brain felt like it wasn't mine (if that makes any sense). I couldn't remember things, and I felt blunted. Not today, though!! We'll see what my blood level is and/or if I get a therapeutic response from "sub-therapeutic" levels.
cyber-hugs,
Katy
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 31, 2003, at 12:10:22
In reply to Barb-cat (or anyone else)--quick Lithium question, posted by fluffy on August 30, 2003, at 15:33:11
Hi Katy,
Yep, lots of side fx that went away. Let's see if I can remember:
1. Nausea, especially if I took on an empty stomache and headache, but only for 1 week
2. Trembly feeling inside and shakey hands
3. Metallic taste in mouth, thirst all the time
4. Smelly pee, lots of it and clear
5. Craving for salt (which you should take more of anyway cause all that peeing depletes it)
6. Tiredness
7. Just feeling weird, kinda in a Limbo place
8. Fuzzy headThese diminished in 1.5 to 3 weeks. They were never incapacitating the way some of the other meds made me feel. It was a little hard to get going in the morning, but no big deal. The fuzzy headed was annoying, but no worse than other meds and I knew from experience that it would subside eventually (tho' that is usually the last to go).
Important: TAKE WITH FOOD.
Then when I increased from 600mg to 900mg, which was where my pdoc wanted me based on the blood work, I got those same side fx again, only this time it felt disruptive and uncomfortable, like it was definitely too high. I backed down to 600mg. Even tho my therpeutic zone wasn't even in the 'low' range, I felt it was working good enough for me. 600mg seems perfect, 300 is definitely too low and I get the disorganization and frenetic stuff at that level. Sometimes some hypomania will break through and I wonder if I should be taking more, but it does pass eventually and I'm glad I held the course. Kay Redfield Jamison said that she eventually decreased because she didn't like the deadening effects and, although she gets the breakthroughs, all in all she's happy with her decision - riding the edge.
At one point when I was complaining about tiredness at first, he had me take it all at night instead of spacing it out (I think I might have been on 900mg at this point as well). I felt TERRIBLE the next morning, just awful, like that awful shakey blurpy feeling after drinking way too much. So I imagine this is what it can feel like if it's increased too fast - yuck. But it never was bad like that for me.
One other time when I went on nortriptyline, all those same things surfaced, but I'll never know if it was the combo, nortriptyline's effects, or what. The point is, all of these went away in time. I felt a nice calmness come upon me at about 3 weeks within each new settling in - nothing remarkable, just a 'normal' feeling that also made my other meds work better.
The only one that has not gone away, and for me is the most worrisome is the thyroid issue. I've been hypothyroid for at least 20 years and have it controlled through meds. Improperly treated, I'm miserable. I knew lithium could be problematic and could replace thyroxine hormone, but I didn't think it would happen to me. It did and I'm still trying to get my levels normal. Docs say 'Oh, that's easy to treat. Just take more thyroid hormone'. A rather typical response. But I'm worried about what it's doing to my thyroid long term. But that's the ONLY complaint I have about it.
I wouldn't want to raise lithium higher into my 'therapeutic window' because I feel it probably would interfere with creativity, sesitivity, spontaneity, thyroid, and such.
I've heard it said that it causes weight gain, but I've been on so many weight gaining meds (Remeron, nortriptyline, blobbing around) that I doubt lithium would make that much difference. I really do have to watch my exercise levels and diet, but hell, most women my age do anyway, and so should everyone for that matter.
You could ask your pdoc for extended release lithium. I think we talked about this before and they were too expensive for you? I've never taken, but heard the extended form greatly diminishes problems. I most definitely would not say that it either works for you or doesn't, based on transient side effects. Give it time, maybe even more than you're comfortable with, because it's definitely worth it. You may need to take measures into your own hands as to time of dosing, strength of dosing, etc. Take more salt (sea salt) and get your thyroid checked regularly and don't let your TSH go over 3.0 NO MATTER what the docs say. You do NOT want a low thyroid. I can't remember why others stopped lithium, what reasons interferred (it was usually fear of anticipated effects rather than real), but I can't recall anyone claiming it didn't help them greately. I don't think it even matter if you're not classic BP. Lithium augments any AD or mood stabilizer, simply by the way it (seems) to act on the ion gates and electrical potential of the neuronal axon. It target another mechanism and even increase Brain Derived Neuronal Factor which makes dendrites grow and is a very good thing.
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 31, 2003, at 12:26:31
In reply to Re: Barb-cat (or anyone else)--quick Lithium question » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on August 31, 2003, at 12:10:22
When I take my lithium pills now (300mg morning and night), it's like taking a vitamin pill. This is the one pill I can truly say causes no side effects that I'm aware of. Maybe something's going on subsurface (like the thyroid thing, but as long as I'm taking thyroid, no big deal). I don't believe it's causing any ticking time bomb in any other way. It's the most effective, least problematic, cheapest med I've ever taken. I resisted for SOOOOO LONG! Here are my reasons for resisting. I hope to hear from you. It will be enlightening.
1. Lithium! Awwwk! That means I'm really crazy.
2. What will my friends/family think if they know I'm taking it? Won't they relate to me differently? (Awwwk! She's really crazy!) (I still hide the bottle when I have company).
3. It will take away my creative juices and I will be dull, dull, dull.
4. I like being hypomanic, if only I could sustain it
5. I will get fat and mushy
6. I'm sick of taking pills and I don't want one more pill!
7. I'm worried about the supposed toxicity of going over that narrow therapeutic window.
8. I'm really bummed about the blood tests (BTW, after I decided to go subtherapeutic, I have bloodwork every 6 months. Before that it was once a month).So, there's my litany. I'm particularly interested in hearing what made those who dedided on Depakote or some other mood stabilizer, do so in leiu of lithium. Thanks. Barbara
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 31, 2003, at 12:34:55
In reply to Re: Histoire de Katia » fluffy, posted by katia on August 30, 2003, at 20:57:06
Heh, Heh. Can really relate to the honkin breathers. I also have an overpowering urge to emerge from my samadhi and go over and deck the creep. I've pounded my poor long suffering husband on the back - really pounded - and yelled "YOU INSENSTIVE A**HOLE, YOUR F**ING SNORING WOKE ME UP!!!!" snarl, slobber, growl. I'm very sensitive to noise and can't sleep if there's the faintest sound of a TV far away. Have always been this way as far back as I remember.
So, I always have a spare of earplugs in my purse wherever I go. Just knowing they're there helps me get through alot of situations. I ALWAYS use them for savasana. - Barbara
Posted by Ima on August 31, 2003, at 12:50:17
In reply to Snores and such » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on August 31, 2003, at 12:34:55
For those who have reported sucess
taking lamictal,
are you still on it
and for how long?I go to new pdoc this week
and want to have some ideas worked out.Thanx
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