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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 273 to 297 of 1313. Go back in thread:
Posted by jerseydevil on December 11, 2003, at 16:09:16
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by bsj on December 11, 2003, at 16:03:20
I agree. If I survive getting off of Paxil completely, I may initiate the class-action in New Jersey (there already is one in California). So it sounds like while withdrawl from Effexor may be bad, it is the lessor of two "evils". Although, if I have sexual side effects with Effexor, I'm weaning off it. I may be in my mid-life crisis years, but I like sex and think it is good for self-esteem issues.
Posted by Blissful_Girl_NOT on December 11, 2003, at 16:12:16
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by bsj on December 11, 2003, at 16:03:20
I'd have to agree...Paxil can be nasty stuff. The problem I had was that it really did not even begin to touch the anxiety problem that it was prescribed for...and in fact the complete loss of sex drive and being able to have orgasms made me even MORE anxious!
My sister takes it and actually likes it and says it works well for her but...again always with the buts...she has been trying for almost a year to be weaned off of it without success (she still is on a very small dose, but the minute that small dose is not taken the withdrawal symptoms kick up, she's ended up in hospital twice because of it).
It never ceases to amaze me how many of the drugs for treating anxiety, dpression, etc., are handed out by docs like candy without ever really discussing what your life is going to be like once you're on them...or god forbid...once you have to go off of them.
-Bliss
Posted by bsj on December 11, 2003, at 16:44:59
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by Blissful_Girl_NOT on December 11, 2003, at 16:12:16
"It never ceases to amaze me how many of the drugs for treating anxiety, dpression, etc., are handed out by docs like candy without ever really discussing what your life is going to be like once you're on them...or god forbid...once you have to go off of them."
ADs are the modern laudanum: they're handed out for anything and everything. And if you try to give many of them up, you run into the same problem as laudanum. We don't know enough about the longterm effects of these drugs to use them so readily. I'm beginning to think that stimulants should be a first-line treatment for depression; amphetamine's been with us for 100+ years, and we know far more about it than any modern AD.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 11, 2003, at 18:12:51
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by bsj on December 11, 2003, at 16:03:20
> Paxil is poison.
Please don't exaggerate. I've asked you to be civil before, so now I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by theo on December 11, 2003, at 19:17:34
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news » Blissful_Girl_NOT, posted by jerseydevil on December 11, 2003, at 14:47:07
Effexor was 10 times worse than Paxil. My pdoc said he just attended a meeting and Effexor was ranked the highest withdrawal AD.
Posted by theo on December 11, 2003, at 19:20:44
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by bsj on December 11, 2003, at 16:03:20
Along with Effexor
Posted by CrazyMe on December 11, 2003, at 23:29:50
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - Life AFTER Effexor, posted by Blissful_Girl_NOT on December 11, 2003, at 13:34:23
I am a 38-year-old unemployed college educated single mother. As of 10:30pm today it has been 96 hours since my last effexor. I took the taper down route. First I tapered myself down from 150 on the XR's to 35.5 on the non-xr, then I was cutting the 37.5 tablets in half and wondering why I felt so odd (and awful) less than 24 hours later. Even though I am unemployed and without health insurance I finally talked myself into going to see my doctor and she educated me.
I learned that the tablets are not time release so they were dropping out of my system that much faster causing me to suffer from SSRI discontinuation syndrome that much sooner. She gave me a few weeks worth of 37.5XR samples and instructed me to go back on the 37.5 once a day for at least a week, then to go every other day for a week or two, then to stop.
I followed these instructions right up until I discovered that going every other day wasn't as easy as it sounded. The first couples of doses were not too difficult but in retrospect I imagine I still had somewhat of a backlog of the meds in my system buffering me. After that I barely made it 36 hours and then 24 again.
Desperately I turned to the Internet. I looked up SSRI discontinuation syndrome and it's treatments. Unfortunately the all around recommended treatment appears to be to go back on whatever medicine you are quitting which isn't what I wanted to do. A recently released study suggests that a B vitamin deficiency can cause or increase depression so I decided to add that to my regimen. Further research suggested that the addition of amino acids would also be helpful. So I added that too. Another article suggested that Sam-e and 5-htp were beneficial so I added that as well.
So as of 96 hours ago that’s what I was doing.
- 400 mg Sam-e first thing in the morning on an empty stomach.
- 50 mg 5-htp half an hour to an hour later with food.
- 37.5 mg effexor whenever the last one ran out.
- 1 B-Formula with C multivitamin,
- 3 natural multi-amino acid gel caps,
- 10 mg ambien, and
- 100 mg metoprolol (for my blood pressure) at bedtime.But I still felt awful. Shocks, dizziness, nausea, hot flashes, other flu like symptoms. A trip to the pharmacy first thing in the morning, wait patiently outside for the pharmacist to open the door. I've already got Dramamine and some seasickness acupressure cuffs in my hands (got to stop this dizziness and nausea!) I tell the pharmacist that I've got SSRI discontinuation syndrome and ask him if what I have in my hands will help. Yes he says, that and Benedryl. Really? Benedryl? Yes he says, but it might make you drowsy. Not a problem I say, if I can sleep through this, all the better.
I make my purchases and choke down a Dramamine and a Benedryl in the car and head home where I put on the acupressure cuffs (ouch those are tight!) and fall back into bed. Do they work? I dunno, but I took them off after sleeping for a hour or so because my hands were swelling a little and they were uncomfortable. A while later I woke up with that pulsing in my ears and a feeling of vertigo. I hastily slipped them back on and I swear I felt the vertigo fade away.
I have been taking everything on it’s recommended schedule ever since. Except the effexor. My memory is terrible so I made an excel spreadsheet to track what I was taking and when and the times and days of the effects I was feeling. According to the spreadsheet the last effexor I took was December 7, 2003 at 10:30 pm.
I’m still experiencing some mild shocks and some whooshing in my ears but I think I can deal with it with the help of everything else. I had a screaming fit of frustrated rage today, no doubt brought on by a combination of a stupid search engine on an Internet job board, the general facts of my life, the effexor withdrawal and the fact that I started my period today.
I expect the next week to be rocky, but I also expect it to get better. I was full of trepidation when I reached that 48 hour mark and decided to just keep going but I think I’m gonna make it. I hope this information will help some of you. I know that your trials certainly helped (are helping) me through mine.
Good luck to everyone!
Posted by Blissful_Girl_NOT on December 11, 2003, at 23:58:51
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - Life AFTER Effexor » Blissful_Girl_NOT, posted by CrazyMe on December 11, 2003, at 23:29:50
Greetings CrazyMe :-)
Reading your post I couldn't help but think that you sound alot like me...except that I'm over 2 weeks off of Effexor and feeling pretty great physically. Shocks, dizziness, nausea, hot flashes, other flu like symptoms...all gone. Well, honestly the shocks still happen very mildly when I'm over tired but they are really very mild. You will get past this point and be all the stronger for it.
Don't know if this helps you much, but consider yourself virtually hugged...getting off this drug was one of the toughest things I've ever gone through and finding this board and realizing that others were going through or had already gone through the same thing made a world of difference for me.
Take care of yourself...it sounds like you're trying hard to do that, so stick with it!
-Bliss
Posted by CrazyMe on December 12, 2003, at 0:15:23
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - Life AFTER Effexor, posted by Blissful_Girl_NOT on December 11, 2003, at 23:58:51
I think I saw a virtual hug displayed once as <<HUGS>>.
Thank you and I hope to be where you are by...Christmas! What a gift!
Posted by Jasamigo on December 12, 2003, at 2:31:38
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by bsj on December 11, 2003, at 16:03:20
I have been taking effexor for the past 9 months and I am ready to stop. I told my doctor that I cannot handle the terrible side effects. I take 225mg a day, and when I miss one day's worth, I start to freak out. First of all, I end up sleeping 20 hours+, wake up in a panic, and find myself feeling very alone. I start crying, basically just because my mind tells me it is the right thing to do. I cry and cry until--well i just continue crying. I cannot function. I can't go to work, or school. I just have to sit in bed for the next 24 hours until it goes away. I live alone, but when I have withdrawl, I have to go to my parents house. I cannot be alone. I make my mother stay home from work and sit in the room with me. I cry if she leaves. I have no idea why-- i have never been a "home-sick" sort of person. I get these vicious domino-effect anxieties about life and dying and love and not having a husband and not have kids and being sick and feeling alone and dying alone. And, thus, it just spirals out of control. It is a very upsetting feeling when I dont have a dose of Effexor, not to mention nauseating. Has anyone every experienced the feeling like a sheet of saran-wrap is in front of your eyes? Like, everything is fuzzy and no matter how hard you try, your vision is scratchy. Anyways, I cannot wait to get off of this medicine. Tomorrow I start decreasing. I am worried.
Jennifer
Posted by CrazyMe on December 12, 2003, at 7:13:49
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by Jasamigo on December 12, 2003, at 2:31:38
Yes, saran wrap over the eyes and cotton in the ears - everything muffled, set away from you a small distance putting you inside a bubble.It's a true feeling of being out of touch.
Posted by jeenobeano on December 12, 2003, at 12:03:49
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by jeenobeano on December 10, 2003, at 14:45:09
> > It's not very scientific to open the capsule and dump out say approx one half of the beads, but I've done it successfully to make up capsules of 1/2 of 37.5 which is about 19 mg.
> >
> > I bought a big bag for $5 or $6 of the empty gel caps from the health food store to split them up. But you can just dump half out if you aren't as thifty as I was.
> >
> > I stayed on 19 for several weeks when tapering off and it helped.
> >
> > The 3rd day of none was the worst, but it got better. And going from 19 to 0 is better than going from 37.5 to zero.
> >
> > *john*
> > > Does anyone know if it's safe to open the capsules and take out a few grains of medicine the way I did? Or is the pharmacist that pours the drugs smarter than I'm thinking s/he is?
> > >
> > > Impatient for my pdoc appt this Friday...
> >
> >
>
>
Well, I finally got an appt with my new pdoc (since I just moved to this part of the country), and what he advised me has me a little worried. He told me that since my first attempt to get off this was so horrible, that taking out 5 granules a week *is* probably the only way I'll be able to get off this and still function.He also prescribed me Lexapro and said I should start taking that before starting the taper. I said I wanted to make a go of things unmedicated for a while, but he said that would probably be unwise.
Does anyone out there with more knowledge than me think this guy knows what he's talking about? Is it ok to take Lexapro while still on Effexor? Thanks in advance.
I haven't posted here much, but reading all these posts definitely makes me feel like I'm not alone in all this. Thanks to everyone.
-- jeeno
Posted by Blissful_Girl_NOT on December 12, 2003, at 12:34:03
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by jeenobeano on December 12, 2003, at 12:03:49
Hi :-)
Well, I've never been on Lexapro (I'd check out some of the threads about it on this board though to give you some insight), but my doc had me switch to Remeron at exactly the same time I stopped the Effexor. The Effexor withdrawals were still bad, but the Remeron at least didn't seem to make matters worse.
I just saw a new pdoc on Wednesday...during this bout of anxiety/depression/stress it has been my regular doc who prescribed the Effexor. Both my regular doc & my pdoc told me that the standard practice (in Canada at least) now is to prescribe a single dose of Prozac to any patient who is going off of Effexor. The Prozac is taken on Day 2 or 3 of withdrawal depending on how bad your symptoms are.
Both docs had just recently read an article (I'm trying to track it down) that showed that tapering and cold turkey withdrawal of Effexor produce the SAME results in people who are predisposed to having withdrawal problems from this med. In otherwords, neither method worked better than the other. My pdoc wryly commented that tapering just seemed to draw out the same withdrawal problems over a longer period of time.
Another thing my pdoc did was sit down with me and go over the (very long) list of AD's and anxiety meds I've been off and on over the past 15 years. The drugs have worked sometimes, but eventually they all either stop working for me, or become to difficult to stay on because of side effects. His point of doing this review was to say that maybe I need to look to something other than just medication to heal myself, so rather than up my Remeron, or add some new RX to the mix, he upped my visits with him. He looked me right in the eye and said "After 15 years of medication yoyo-ing we're going to try something new, we're going to talk about whats bothering you."
He's given me books to read and workbooks with excercises that I will need to do as "homework". I'm still on Remeron, and I have no idea if this "talk therapy" is going to help, but it is definitely not going to hurt. I have a long history of this type of illness in my family. I have no doubt in my mind that some of my problem is chemical imbalance...but I also no longer have any doubt that some of my problem is that I have not learned how to COPE with this illness. I've been chasing that magic pill that is going to "fix" everything for 15 years...and while I've found lots of bandaid pills, I've found no cures. I think I'll start looking inside myself for that.
Thanks for letting me rant...Jeeno I know that didn't answer your question...but think about this: If your instincts are making you question anything about the course of your treatment, listen to those instincts and ask questions, lots of questions and look for options...lots of options. Getting you off of Effexor should not be about finding you another AD (Lexapro) to go on.
-Bliss
Posted by jenneh on December 12, 2003, at 15:49:40
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by jeenobeano on December 10, 2003, at 16:08:36
Hye there
Ok that is just weird = I just passed the bar too! In Canada) Anyways, I know what you're saying about people thinking its rational to feel this way considering our choice of careers. However, what they dont realize is that (at least for me) even with major things to focus on, I still gt fixated and obsessive about stupidity. Ack!
Posted by jeenobeano on December 12, 2003, at 16:37:50
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by jenneh on December 12, 2003, at 15:49:40
> Hye there
> Ok that is just weird = I just passed the bar too! In Canada) Anyways, I know what you're saying about people thinking its rational to feel this way considering our choice of careers. However, what they dont realize is that (at least for me) even with major things to focus on, I still gt fixated and obsessive about stupidity. Ack!
That's so wild that you're an attorney as well. I dont' know about you, but I met more people in my 3 years of law school who had GAD, OCD, and other anxiety problems than I've met in the entire rest of my life.Having said all of that, I've decided I want to live med-free for a little while. This Effexor w/d stuff is making the idea of trying a new drug pretty darn off-putting. :-P
Posted by KimberlyDi on December 12, 2003, at 17:06:36
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by Blissful_Girl_NOT on December 12, 2003, at 12:34:03
Great post. I've been trying a combo of both. I go to weekly marriage counseling with my husband, plus my own individual sessions with my therapist. I expect the AD's that I'm on to prevent me from driving my car into a tree, or worse. But I'm not expecting them to make me happy. I'm a people pleaser and have a very difficult time knowing what *I* want to do.
Good luck!
KDi in TX
Posted by jenneh on December 12, 2003, at 17:48:28
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by jeenobeano on December 12, 2003, at 16:37:50
Yep. There are certainly some real personalities in law school.. I have never met more people with type A personalities, in fact. So where do you live anwyways?
Posted by pala on December 13, 2003, at 16:28:19
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by Jasamigo on December 12, 2003, at 2:31:38
Jennifer,You are absolutely right, because your eyes get strained so much during the withdrawal,
you can't read anything, this is all part of these deadly medications, we will
have to ask these Psychiatrists first to experience this and then prescribe to others, they just victimize us.But certainly your mental shocks (or zaps) will totally vanish after 3 or 4 months, mild dizziness will remain for some
more time, but all other symptoms will vanish too.If you have developed post nasal drip which I did, this takes good 6 to 7 months before you see
this subsiding, try not to loose temper during these withdrawal days as it can be nasty as mental
ups and down are pretty intense during this period.Start with mild exercise, don't breach excessively, as lack of co2 in the body may certainly cause
you panic and more dizziness, once you are normal after few months, you can
do intense exercise, which is exactly I am doing, you will feel awesome and your mind will not even
think of touching those horrible medications.I wish you good luck and certainly you will need somebody's help when you are going though this
withdrawal hell.Please, anybody who is experiencing withdrawal symptoms, I can offer some good suggestions
which makes things more manageable as I have gained good experience going through this personally.pala
Posted by Roomy on December 15, 2003, at 12:39:07
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by jeenobeano on December 12, 2003, at 12:03:49
its me Roomy again. I was the one going 75mg one day and then 37.5 the next for like 20 days and then just on 37.5 every day for 20days and NOW just this weekend I am supposed to skip and take it every other day. Well...I skipped saturdays dose and was fine but just write off Sunday! I was useless! 37.5 is sooooo freakin small of a dose and I only skipped ONE day!!! WHATS THE DEAL??? I so thought this was gonna work! Sunday I took my meds so today I am better but today I didnt so tomorrow will suck. I am tired of doctors and going back and going back and I KNOW that just dumping out half of the capsule and taking it is bad.....*heavy sigh*...anyway...the doctor said he wanted to put me on Wellbutrin during the weaning process but I, too, didnt want anything to do with any other drugs. Here is my question: everyother day until the drug is gone (I have about 15 pills left) that 30 days. Will I feel like this for thirty days? and what happens when the drug is gone? will I feel WORSE?
Posted by jeenobeano on December 15, 2003, at 14:11:42
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news » jeenobeano, posted by Roomy on December 15, 2003, at 12:39:07
> its me Roomy again. I was the one going 75mg one day and then 37.5 the next for like 20 days and then just on 37.5 every day for 20days and NOW just this weekend I am supposed to skip and take it every other day. Well...I skipped saturdays dose and was fine but just write off Sunday! I was useless! 37.5 is sooooo freakin small of a dose and I only skipped ONE day!!! WHATS THE DEAL??? I so thought this was gonna work! Sunday I took my meds so today I am better but today I didnt so tomorrow will suck. I am tired of doctors and going back and going back and I KNOW that just dumping out half of the capsule and taking it is bad.....*heavy sigh*...anyway...the doctor said he wanted to put me on Wellbutrin during the weaning process but I, too, didnt want anything to do with any other drugs. Here is my question: everyother day until the drug is gone (I have about 15 pills left) that 30 days. Will I feel like this for thirty days? and what happens when the drug is gone? will I feel WORSE?
Hi Roomy,
I'm not doing so well myself. With my doctor's assistance I've begun weaning myself off 75mg verrrrrrry slooooowwwly. With his approval I removed 2 measly granules from the 75mg capsule on Friday, and I've been doing the same every evening since then. Friday and Saturday I felt totally fine, no symptoms whatsoever. Last night I started feeling a bit jittery, and today I'm incredibly jittery. All this from 2 measly granules!!!!!!!!!!!!
That said, I'm feeling much better than when I was impetuous enough to remove TEN granules at a time. However, at this rate I'm going to be on this stuff for the rest of my life. If I start to feel better soon I'm going to try to remove more like 5-8 per week (less than the horrible 10 per week, but more than the ridiculously small 2 per week).
As long as I'm able to function I don't really care if it takes me 6 months or longer to get off this stuff. I just simply can't take 2 months of sick leave at this point in my career.
Posted by jerseydevil on December 15, 2003, at 14:11:55
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news » jeenobeano, posted by Roomy on December 15, 2003, at 12:39:07
I've been on Welbutrin for the past year, along with wean off of Paxil (down to 7.5mg) and just started on 37.5mg of Effexor, NO problems or side effects that I can attribute to Welbutrin. I decided to try starting Effexor after reading some of this thread, because I cannot see how the withdrawl can be worse than Paxil for me, and I still want the right cocktail. One of the recent postings on this thread indicated that there is no difference between withdrawl from a full dose or weaning with Effexor. I am not saying this is not true, just be cautious. Weaning may not be fun with Paxil, but cold turkey allegedly caused a former Paxil user to become homicidal and suicidal and act on both, resulting in a lawsuit in Wyoming. I intend to wean off Effexor, when it is time, unless I am convinced that I can safely (within SSRI withdrawl funtime limits) stop entirely all at once.
jd
Posted by Blissful_Girl_NOT on December 15, 2003, at 14:29:48
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by jerseydevil on December 15, 2003, at 14:11:55
Hi Jersydevil :-)
I think the post you are referring to about there being no difference between weening or going cold turkey, is from me.
I was referring to the withdrawal symptoms. There has been some very basic studies into the actual physical withdrawal side-effects and the severity of these withdrawal symptoms were seen as the same whether people tapered off or quit cold turkey under a doctors supervision. The main difference was the time...the people who quit cold turkey did not have as long a period of the withdrawal symptoms as those who weened off. And for those who quit cold turkey a single dose prescribed by their doc for 1 20mg dose of Prozac releived most of the major withrawal symptoms.
Again, I'm not saying either method is the best. But I can speak to the cold turkey method. I had a total of 3 days when I was not able to do my regular things (3 sick days in effect), the rest of the time, while I did not feel well, I was still totally functional. Now, three weeks since my last dose, I have been feeling really pretty good for the past week and a half.
-Bliss
p.s. I'm trying to get my doc to e-mail me a copy of the report she and my pdoc are referring to. If I get it I will post a link to it on here.
Posted by jeenobeano on December 15, 2003, at 14:45:11
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by Blissful_Girl_NOT on December 15, 2003, at 14:29:48
> Hi Jersydevil :-)
>
> I think the post you are referring to about there being no difference between weening or going cold turkey, is from me.
>
> I was referring to the withdrawal symptoms. There has been some very basic studies into the actual physical withdrawal side-effects and the severity of these withdrawal symptoms were seen as the same whether people tapered off or quit cold turkey under a doctors supervision. The main difference was the time...the people who quit cold turkey did not have as long a period of the withdrawal symptoms as those who weened off. And for those who quit cold turkey a single dose prescribed by their doc for 1 20mg dose of Prozac releived most of the major withrawal symptoms.
>
> Again, I'm not saying either method is the best. But I can speak to the cold turkey method. I had a total of 3 days when I was not able to do my regular things (3 sick days in effect), the rest of the time, while I did not feel well, I was still totally functional. Now, three weeks since my last dose, I have been feeling really pretty good for the past week and a half.
>
> -Bliss
> p.s. I'm trying to get my doc to e-mail me a copy of the report she and my pdoc are referring to. If I get it I will post a link to it on here.Bliss,
It makes sense to me that the TOTAL amount of withdrawal symptoms could be similar if you taper vs. if you withdraw. However, just from my own personal experience, the day-to-day w/d symptoms I've suffered from sloooowwww tapering have been a fraction of what they were when I sped up the tapering process. Maybe I'm gonna suffer just as much overall, but each day's allotment of pain will be tiny -- which I can handle.
I'm an attorney and the sole breadwinner in my family. I'm also no hero; rather, I'm a total wimp with a very low pain threshhold. I can afford to feel kind of not-great for 6 months. I CANNOT afford to be incapacitated for any amount of time.
Posted by jerseydevil on December 15, 2003, at 14:53:43
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by jeenobeano on December 15, 2003, at 14:45:11
I hear ya, Bean, I have an expert dep to take next week and I hope I'm up to it with the change in meds. But I lost 2 months last summer (SLI) due to a major crash which could have put me in the hospital. Part of that crash I attribute to a step down from 10 to 7.5mg on Paxil. But I had a few other things going on too. I am planning on finishing off the Paxil wean once I'm at two weeks on Effexor. I hope it doesn't trash my holidays.
Posted by Roomy on December 15, 2003, at 17:04:01
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by jerseydevil on December 15, 2003, at 14:53:43
I do worry about the holidays approaching and attempting to wean off completely as well. I am hoping that the distraction of the holiday hustle and bustle will help. It will be my best christmas present to be completely off medication and feeling like the old me again. (see..I can type rather controlled today cuz I have yesterdays dose in me...its tomorrow I worry about since today is my 'skip' day) I hope you all have a great holiday and wanted to tell you how much this chating helps.
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