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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 484 to 508 of 1313. Go back in thread:
Posted by shadows721 on February 3, 2004, at 23:11:28
In reply to Sad story of Effexor gone wrong, posted by Roomy on January 30, 2004, at 6:18:03
I am so sad for your loss. I haven't withdrawn from Effexor, but I have from Klonopin. It was Hell on Earth. I became suicidal and homicidal. So, I could understand if this fine man became suicidal from withdrawing too fast from this powerful medication. The fact remains; no one knows the real reason for his feelings or why he was suffering.
Please don't blame yourself for this. Surely, there were things that you may have not known about this man. This may have had nothing to do with the Effexor. It may have been about a situation he felt he no longer deal with in his life. Further, even if you told him what you know, he may not have listened to you.
The truth is that blaming yourself will not bring him back. Certainly, he would not want you to torture yourself by taking the blame for something you had nothing to do with in his life. Presently, you can use your power to empower others with knowledge about this medication.
Posted by shadows721 on February 3, 2004, at 23:58:04
In reply to brain zaps - similarity to Lhermitte's sign, posted by justjustine on February 1, 2004, at 14:27:34
I didn't know what anyone was talking about with brain zaps. After reading your article, I realized I had those when I got off of Klonopin. Gosh, there are so many similiarities to me in my withdrawal from Klonopin to those withdrawing from Effexor. It really does sound like to me Effexor has a strong physically chemically dependent aspect to it. This drug needs to be strongly warned about by the manufacturer. It sounds like this medication needs to be classified as physically dependent as a benzo category. I am not saying they are the same, but just in the classification of physical dependency. What's your thoughts?
Posted by fayeroe on February 4, 2004, at 6:40:06
In reply to Effexor and Klonopin w/d similiarity, posted by shadows721 on February 3, 2004, at 23:58:04
> I didn't know what anyone was talking about with brain zaps. After reading your article, I realized I had those when I got off of Klonopin. Gosh, there are so many similiarities to me in my withdrawal from Klonopin to those withdrawing from Effexor. It really does sound like to me Effexor has a strong physically chemically dependent aspect to it. This drug needs to be strongly warned about by the manufacturer. It sounds like this medication needs to be classified as physically dependent as a benzo category. I am not saying they are the same, but just in the classification of physical dependency. What's your thoughts?
I agree with you. Totally. AND Effexor has two weight issues.....some people gain a huge amount of weight, while others, like myself, lose too much. I lost 38 pounds. I was down to 99-100 lbs. I only ate every TWO to THREE days. And then I had to force myself to take something in. My doctor would not even dicuss the possibility that it was the Effexor. I've never felt worse than I did when I was at that point. My head felt like it was full of rocks. I could work but just barely. I went to work, came home, went to bed, got up and did it again. I halved my dose from 75 mg. to 37.5 and then just reduced the dosage until I was off of it. It took quite awhile. There should definitely be warnings that are much more detailed than is on the drug. I will campaign again it against the rest of my life. Pat p.s. that is very interesting that you had the brain zaps coming off K...first I've heard of it. Medicine is a two-edged sword and sometimes it definitely isn't worth it!
Posted by Roomy on February 4, 2004, at 8:21:52
In reply to Re: Sad story of Effexor gone wrong, posted by shadows721 on February 3, 2004, at 23:11:28
> Please don't blame yourself for this. Surely, there were things that you may have not known about this man. This may have had nothing to do with the Effexor. It may have been about a situation he felt he no longer deal with in his life. Further, even if you told him what you know, he may not have listened to you.
>
> The truth is that blaming yourself will not bring him back. Certainly, he would not want you to torture yourself by taking the blame for something you had nothing to do with in his life. Presently, you can use your power to empower others with knowledge about this medication.Thank you (and others) for your kind words and words of wisdom. My life is FINALLY coming together. I can post here and not cry. I can be awake during the day and have energy and motivation now to do the things I used to do. My days are now routine. I have applied for a second job outside the house (I currently manage a mobile home park from my home), my house is back in order and neat and tidy, my grocery shopping trips are organized and planed. I never thought I would find this old me again. But I am back....With avengence! I even pulled out my oil paints and painted a beautiful picture that I will frame and hang as soon as it dries. I am feeling so angry now that 7years of my life were a waste! Effexor may have helped me briefly but it surely was not worth the 7 years that I feel like I have lost. If there is ever a civil law suit against this drug, I will be first on the
list. But, that too, is behind me. I have a lot of years to make up! I have no time now to waste on the "if only" and "what might have been". Good luck to everyone going off this deamon drug and any other drug like it. Hang in there and find the real you. It's so worth it!!!
Posted by justjustine on February 4, 2004, at 10:05:49
In reply to Re: Effexor and Klonopin w/d similiarity » shadows721, posted by fayeroe on February 4, 2004, at 6:40:06
couldn't agree with you more. effexor should be classed as a dependency causing drug. but they won't call it addictive because it causes no "drug-seeking behavior."
i may never convince my doctors that it was the effexor (and later the withdrawal) that made me sick, but i know.
Posted by fastblackZZR on February 4, 2004, at 13:43:51
In reply to effexor = bad when you want to stop, posted by justjustine on February 4, 2004, at 10:05:49
i had only been on effexor xr for a month, but i adjust and depend very quickly. i knew i needed to change the medication. i went from 150 mg. to 75.5. within a couple of days i felt a sense of doom and despair. i cried hysterically.
after reading a suggestion on the net, my husband went to the health food store and bought two things : a bottle of choline & inositol (500mg tabs) and a bottle of DHA. i began taking wellbutrin XL on top of the tapering doses of effexor, along with the above mentioned supplements. i noticed a difference within a day or two. during the couple of days i had horrid crying spells, vivid nightmares were also a part of my withdrawal. i went down to the 35.5 mg effexor for three days. i am on my second day without effexor and am taking 300 mg. wellbutrin XL. for the past two days i have had severe irritablilty and my head feels very uncomfortable. (like the shocks that paxil withdrawl can produce)i can deal with this easier than i can deal with the crying and nightmares, and i can see the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel.
by no means am i saying this is the way to do it for everyone. this is what i have done and i believe the supplements have made a big difference. it's worth a try. when you are going crazy from withdrawl, most anything sane is worth a try.
Posted by Althea8869 on February 4, 2004, at 16:13:30
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal, posted by Virginia NP on February 3, 2004, at 10:05:20
> I entered here to find a solution for myself as well as my patients. Thank you ALL for the education from the patient perspective. I feel so fortunate that my own withdrawal has been minor in comparison to so many. I have only experienced the sort of "migraine without pain" that several have described. I was on a 75mg XR maintenance dose for 4 years. My tapering began with a 75 mg capsule every other day for a week. I followed this with roughly 32.5 mg for a week. The symptoms were fairly mild and were experienced briefly the morning I was due for a dose. MOST helpful has been the 20mg of fluoxetine (Prozac) for 2-3 days until symptoms abate. I found this tip from another clinician posting on this site. I needed just one dose, however & feel GREAT now.
> Just wanted to post a positive----Good luck to everyone finding resolution to your withdrawal.
>
> > Well today was a bit better than yesterday. I managed to complete a project i've had sitting for many weeks, I even helped my husband make a closet today, but about mid afternoon I seem to go downhill, but I have to admit I feel better than I did a week ago. Is this feeling of sleepyness part of the withdrawl, and hot and cold flashes?
> >
> >
> > > Norma, it does get better. I'm now at around 2 weeks off Effexor (from a careful taper-down schedule) and except for a few twinges, I'm no longer sick or unable to function. However, my emotions are fluctuating wildly and I feel frustrated that I can't get a grip. Rebound depression is serious.
> > >
> > > Hang in there. Best wishes.
> > > KDi in TX
> >
>
>The prozac trick as well as DHA/Inositol/Klonopin trick really seems to work very well for a lot of people, the prozac being perhaps the most helpful. When I quit effexor (i was at 300mgXR), I read as many posts as could possibly be found and then followed up with a family friend who is psychpharm professor at Harvard - he was the one who reccomended to me this method and he reccomends it to most of his patients who he is trying to get off effexor for obvious reasons. Bottom line, where this drug not as successful as it is for so many people, I suspect it would have to be pulled from the shelves because of the viscious, protracted withdrawl. Anyway, glad youre feeling better.
Posted by fastblackZZR on February 4, 2004, at 18:54:02
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal, posted by Althea8869 on February 4, 2004, at 16:13:30
you know, information can be our best friend or our worst enemy, depending on the situation. in the case of this board, it's our best friend. you cannot possibly explain to someone who hasn't been there the sickening, vivid nightmares that seem to penetrate your very soul and leave you disoriented. or the uncontrollable crying, feelings of wanting to die, shock sensations in your head, etc. withdrawal from effexor is very real and very difficult. having this board to log into and read allows us the comfort of knowing someone out there empathizes completely. i have gone back and read many of the posts this afternoon. empathy doesn't take the nightmarish symptoms of withdrawal away, but it certainly makes the burden a little easier to bear.
Posted by Althea8869 on February 4, 2004, at 20:13:26
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal, posted by fastblackZZR on February 4, 2004, at 18:54:02
> you know, information can be our best friend or our worst enemy, depending on the situation. in the case of this board, it's our best friend. you cannot possibly explain to someone who hasn't been there the sickening, vivid nightmares that seem to penetrate your very soul and leave you disoriented. or the uncontrollable crying, feelings of wanting to die, shock sensations in your head, etc. withdrawal from effexor is very real and very difficult. having this board to log into and read allows us the comfort of knowing someone out there empathizes completely. i have gone back and read many of the posts this afternoon. empathy doesn't take the nightmarish symptoms of withdrawal away, but it certainly makes the burden a little easier to bear.
I suspect that for many, this board is as close to a therapist as they might get. Which is both unfortunate and fortunate at the same time. As a scientist(actually mathematician) I would be very interested to find out what sort of useful scientific information could be distilled from all of the postings on this board. So many people tell so much of themselves that the total collected contents of this board would provide as much if not more info than any of those 'double blind/placebo' studies that all of us have read at one time or another looking for hope. I think that the most important conclusion that I have taken from all the reading I have done is that, at this stage of the game, we really know so little about the myriad faces of mental illness and diagnostics for planning treatment. I actually saw my pdoc today and we were discussing the fact that despite all the pharmaceutical options available, the single most successful cure for depression(and many other mental disorders as well) is ECT. Its clinical success rate still is staggeringly greater than any pharmacological/nutritional solution - and many suspect that this will remain the case for many years to come. Interesting.
Anyway, all the best.
Posted by baddog55 on February 4, 2004, at 21:19:12
In reply to Effexor Withdrawls » fastblackZZR, posted by Althea8869 on February 4, 2004, at 20:13:26
I apologize in advance for my ignorance, but what is ETC? Hopefully I am not the only one here who does not know this.
> > you know, information can be our best friend or our worst enemy, depending on the situation. in the case of this board, it's our best friend. you cannot possibly explain to someone who hasn't been there the sickening, vivid nightmares that seem to penetrate your very soul and leave you disoriented. or the uncontrollable crying, feelings of wanting to die, shock sensations in your head, etc. withdrawal from effexor is very real and very difficult. having this board to log into and read allows us the comfort of knowing someone out there empathizes completely. i have gone back and read many of the posts this afternoon. empathy doesn't take the nightmarish symptoms of withdrawal away, but it certainly makes the burden a little easier to bear.
>
>
>
> I suspect that for many, this board is as close to a therapist as they might get. Which is both unfortunate and fortunate at the same time. As a scientist(actually mathematician) I would be very interested to find out what sort of useful scientific information could be distilled from all of the postings on this board. So many people tell so much of themselves that the total collected contents of this board would provide as much if not more info than any of those 'double blind/placebo' studies that all of us have read at one time or another looking for hope. I think that the most important conclusion that I have taken from all the reading I have done is that, at this stage of the game, we really know so little about the myriad faces of mental illness and diagnostics for planning treatment. I actually saw my pdoc today and we were discussing the fact that despite all the pharmaceutical options available, the single most successful cure for depression(and many other mental disorders as well) is ECT. Its clinical success rate still is staggeringly greater than any pharmacological/nutritional solution - and many suspect that this will remain the case for many years to come. Interesting.
> Anyway, all the best.
Posted by fastblackZZR on February 4, 2004, at 21:44:19
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawls, posted by baddog55 on February 4, 2004, at 21:19:12
etc. = abbreviation of et cetera. meaning: and other things. example: "we are going to the store for milk, eggs, butter .etc."
please don't feel embarassed or ignorant!
it would hurt me to know anything i say causes anyone any kind of discomfort. the effexor withdrawals are more than enough discomfort for us all!
love to all -
Posted by Althea8869 on February 4, 2004, at 21:48:47
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawls, posted by baddog55 on February 4, 2004, at 21:19:12
ECT refers to electro convulsive therapy. Basically the patient is given a strong muscle relaxant as well as a sedative and has electrodes attached to his brain. The current is ran through the electrodes, through the brain inducing a seizure - which is monitored on a chart. Usually last for 45 to 60 seconds. The patient never knows what is happening because he is 'under' and he wakes up shortly after the seizure ends. The bad news is that it can affect short term memory, the good news is that its success rate, after just one session, in treating depression is nothing short of extraordinary. For obvious reasons there is a nasty stigma associated with it, in no small part because in the early days of this therapy, there were not strong muscle relaxants necessary to control the patients seizure. It was not unusual for a patient to reawaken with a broken wrist, strained neck or more serious injuries. With todays muscle relaxnts, this is no longer an issue and with our ability to monitor the brain during the process, it is much safer. It should be said that, like other methods, exactly why it works is not well understood. Some believe that is results in a complete rebalancing of the brains neurotransmitters. Who knows, who cares, the fact is that it is still, by far, the most successful method of treating serious mental disorders.
Posted by justjustine on February 4, 2004, at 22:50:51
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawls, posted by Althea8869 on February 4, 2004, at 21:48:47
i am interested to hear from anyone who has tried ECT and how it worked for them.
thanks!
> ECT refers to electro convulsive therapy. Basically the patient is given a strong muscle relaxant as well as a sedative and has electrodes attached to his brain. The current is ran through the electrodes, through the brain inducing a seizure - which is monitored on a chart. Usually last for 45 to 60 seconds. The patient never knows what is happening because he is 'under' and he wakes up shortly after the seizure ends. The bad news is that it can affect short term memory, the good news is that its success rate, after just one session, in treating depression is nothing short of extraordinary. For obvious reasons there is a nasty stigma associated with it, in no small part because in the early days of this therapy, there were not strong muscle relaxants necessary to control the patients seizure. It was not unusual for a patient to reawaken with a broken wrist, strained neck or more serious injuries. With todays muscle relaxnts, this is no longer an issue and with our ability to monitor the brain during the process, it is much safer. It should be said that, like other methods, exactly why it works is not well understood. Some believe that is results in a complete rebalancing of the brains neurotransmitters. Who knows, who cares, the fact is that it is still, by far, the most successful method of treating serious mental disorders.
Posted by fastblackZZR on February 5, 2004, at 10:37:16
In reply to ECT - anyone here tried it?, posted by justjustine on February 4, 2004, at 22:50:51
i realize today that i tried to go off the effexor too quickly. i had only been on it one month. today would have been 3 days without it - taking 300mg. wellbutrin XL. i woke up this morning disoriented from bad dreams, my head was swimming and i have had a pain in my lower back that has been pretty consistant for a week now. i took 37.5 mg. effexor a few minutes ago. i am in tears, tired of my children seeing me like this...
has anyone else experienced pain with the withdrawal?
Posted by on-the-wave on February 5, 2004, at 11:07:12
In reply to someone help, posted by fastblackZZR on February 5, 2004, at 10:37:16
Your best bet is to go back to the dose you were taking three days ago. Then go see your doc and get a proper schedule for tapering.
From 300mg, i went 2 weeks 225mg, 2 weeks 150mg, 2 weeks 75mg, 1 week 37.5mg. I have been off completely now for 10 days. Today is the first day i am starting to feel reasonably "normal". Still some SE but generally feeling better.
I "designed" my own schedule based on my personal reaction to the tapering. But your Dr should know best.
Posted by fastblackZZR on February 5, 2004, at 11:26:15
In reply to Re: someone help, posted by on-the-wave on February 5, 2004, at 11:07:12
> Your best bet is to go back to the dose you were taking three days ago. Then go see your doc and get a proper schedule for tapering.
>
> From 300mg, i went 2 weeks 225mg, 2 weeks 150mg, 2 weeks 75mg, 1 week 37.5mg. I have been off completely now for 10 days. Today is the first day i am starting to feel reasonably "normal". Still some SE but generally feeling better.
>
> I "designed" my own schedule based on my personal reaction to the tapering. But your Dr should know best.thank you for your response. i was trying to "do it my way" which is a dead giveaway to my faults.
what i did wrong was NOT do what my doctor told me in the tapering schedule. i went too quickly because i felt i could do it. i have resumed the dose i took 3 days ago and will taper VERY slowly. i had no idea this medication was such a demon. i am so proud of your 10 day accomplishment. i long to be in your place so my children can see me "normal" again. i feel like a failure as a mom... again, much appreciation for your quick response and for your concern. this board is such a blessing.
Posted by baddog55 on February 5, 2004, at 19:01:36
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawls » baddog55, posted by fastblackZZR on February 4, 2004, at 21:44:19
I know what etc means, lol, I transposed the letters. In your post you said ECT, and that's what I wanted to know.
> etc. = abbreviation of et cetera. meaning: and other things. example: "we are going to the store for milk, eggs, butter .etc."
> please don't feel embarassed or ignorant!
> it would hurt me to know anything i say causes anyone any kind of discomfort. the effexor withdrawals are more than enough discomfort for us all!
> love to all -
Posted by Althea8869 on February 5, 2004, at 19:54:02
In reply to Re: someone help, posted by fastblackZZR on February 5, 2004, at 11:26:15
By the way FastBlack, how are you faring. Drop a post so we know you are doing ok.
Posted by justjustine on February 5, 2004, at 23:22:52
In reply to Re: someone help, posted by fastblackZZR on February 5, 2004, at 11:26:15
best of luck to you! i found the taper from 37 to 0 was too abrupt. i was on 150mg for a bit over a year, and got very, very sick from the withdrawals.
i've been off effexor for one month now, and it wasn't until this past weekend that i saw any real difference in my physical withdrawal symptoms.
the beauty is that now i am so much better every day!
still, i recommend that you stretch out your tapering as you find you need it to be.
my doctor did not/does not know what is best for me - i have to work to figure that out with them. and if i didn't do that work they would have me on all sorts of crap. please don't disregard how crucial your own input is in deciding your medications and dosages! no one can make you take anything.
thanks! and i'm wishing you all the best. the mountain does have another side...
> > Your best bet is to go back to the dose you were taking three days ago. Then go see your doc and get a proper schedule for tapering.
> >
> > From 300mg, i went 2 weeks 225mg, 2 weeks 150mg, 2 weeks 75mg, 1 week 37.5mg. I have been off completely now for 10 days. Today is the first day i am starting to feel reasonably "normal". Still some SE but generally feeling better.
> >
> > I "designed" my own schedule based on my personal reaction to the tapering. But your Dr should know best.
>
> thank you for your response. i was trying to "do it my way" which is a dead giveaway to my faults.
> what i did wrong was NOT do what my doctor told me in the tapering schedule. i went too quickly because i felt i could do it. i have resumed the dose i took 3 days ago and will taper VERY slowly. i had no idea this medication was such a demon. i am so proud of your 10 day accomplishment. i long to be in your place so my children can see me "normal" again. i feel like a failure as a mom... again, much appreciation for your quick response and for your concern. this board is such a blessing.
>
Posted by fastblackZZR on February 6, 2004, at 6:28:45
In reply to Re: someone help, posted by justjustine on February 5, 2004, at 23:22:52
i felt better yesterday evening after having taken the 37.5 around lunch. no nightmares last night. i woke up about 15 minutes ago feeling pretty refreshed. (of course i have several people praying really hard for me right now, so i attribute much to that.)i understand now that this will be a long process - longer than my doctor thought, as he had me on a 2 week discontinuation process - i tried to do it in one week - we were BOTH wrong.
Posted by Althea8869 on February 6, 2004, at 9:37:20
In reply to Re: someone help, posted by fastblackZZR on February 6, 2004, at 6:28:45
Well just hang in there - as I had said in an earlier post you really should talk to your doctor about adding prozac or similar to smooth the decline. Wont make what your feeling go away, but I can tell you from expereince that this WAS the key for me. Im actually kind of surprised that with all the bad press on effexor withdrawl that there isnt some 'best practice' method recommended for stopping. The titrating method of course works, but the cost in pain and suffering is immeasurable. In fact I would be willing to bet you that one of these drug companies will come up with a pill specifically designed to aid in the withdrawl off effexor and some of the other really bad ones like paxil etc. If they do, buy stock in that company and we'll both retire very rich. That said, chin up - it'll pass. What I found was not a gradual decline in withdrawl symptoms every day, but rather no improvement for a few days and then a very noticeable change. Then that continued for a few days with no improvement and then again a noticeable change....that type of thing. Good luck and keep posting on progress.
Posted by fastblackZZR on February 6, 2004, at 9:56:18
In reply to Re: someone help, posted by Althea8869 on February 6, 2004, at 9:37:20
i began wellbutrin XL the day i began tapering off of effexor. i'm taking 300 mg. of the wellbutrin. i am guessing it's helping. you know how different we all are - i don't tolerate prozac well. it changes my personality for the worse. i agree with your comment on the drug companies.
when you were tapering the effexor and then not taking it at all, did you experience intense feelings of doom and uncontrollable crying?
Posted by Althea8869 on February 6, 2004, at 12:18:28
In reply to Re: someone help, posted by fastblackZZR on February 6, 2004, at 9:56:18
> i began wellbutrin XL the day i began tapering off of effexor. i'm taking 300 mg. of the wellbutrin. i am guessing it's helping. you know how different we all are - i don't tolerate prozac well. it changes my personality for the worse. i agree with your comment on the drug companies.
> when you were tapering the effexor and then not taking it at all, did you experience intense feelings of doom and uncontrollable crying?
The emotional symptoms I had were not nearly as bad as the physical/mental ones I had - the "brain shock" as theyre often referred to as were really debilitating. Emotionally I simply did the best I could to rationalize the situation. Just a sidbar here, but I have found that happiness, to some extent, can be found in knowing that there is something to look forward to. Just try to concentrate on anything and everything that you have to look forward to(im sure that despite the way you feel, there are many things - not the least of which is feeling better - which you will - trust me).Incidentally, how is the wellbutrin working for you, i think thats the drug Im going to try next. Im on remeron right now and it hasnt done a thing for me except to help me sleep, which seems to be tru of many who take it, I think its like trazodone in that way, great for sleep, not widely effective for depression. Speaking of wellbutrin, I found an excellent article on it online, I'll see if I can find it and post you.
Hang in there.
Posted by fastblackZZR on February 6, 2004, at 13:26:56
In reply to Re: someone help, posted by Althea8869 on February 6, 2004, at 12:18:28
i think the wellbutrin is helping. it's the XL form. it provides a good bit of energy, so i take it in the mornings. i take ambien to sleep at night. eventually i want to be to the point where i can sleep sound and peacefully without anything.
Posted by justjustine on February 6, 2004, at 16:44:14
In reply to Re: someone help, posted by Althea8869 on February 6, 2004, at 9:37:20
my experiences were similar - plateaus between improvements. i'm just past 4 weeks, and have finally started to cut back on the vicodin this week. in fact i'd be off it altogether if i hadn't gotten a nasty head/chest cold and can't get in to the doctor until tuesday. i don't need it to mask my withdrawal symptoms anymore! yay!!
and mentally i feel quite good. that's actually atypical for me - in the past whenever i've been physically ill, i've had emotional trouble to complement it.
i'm wishing you all the best.
> Well just hang in there - as I had said in an earlier post you really should talk to your doctor about adding prozac or similar to smooth the decline. Wont make what your feeling go away, but I can tell you from expereince that this WAS the key for me. Im actually kind of surprised that with all the bad press on effexor withdrawl that there isnt some 'best practice' method recommended for stopping. The titrating method of course works, but the cost in pain and suffering is immeasurable. In fact I would be willing to bet you that one of these drug companies will come up with a pill specifically designed to aid in the withdrawl off effexor and some of the other really bad ones like paxil etc. If they do, buy stock in that company and we'll both retire very rich. That said, chin up - it'll pass. What I found was not a gradual decline in withdrawl symptoms every day, but rather no improvement for a few days and then a very noticeable change. Then that continued for a few days with no improvement and then again a noticeable change....that type of thing. Good luck and keep posting on progress.
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