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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Angel Girl on March 25, 2004, at 15:01:04
In reply to Re: How long does withdrawal from Effexor last?, posted by John Andrews on March 25, 2004, at 6:03:14
> I was off for about 6 months and he put me back on because the anxiety came back, not because of the side affects. I was just thinking that the 75 was not enough to cause the brain zaps and now i am on 150 so i may experience them now?
JohnNot necessarily. I did but not until my dosage became higher than yours is. As you can see by reading posts from others here, the good majority only experienced brain zaps while weaning off of Effexor.
Angel Girl
Posted by caritasrainbow on March 25, 2004, at 15:02:28
In reply to Re: How long does withdrawal from Effexor last? » caritasrainbow, posted by Angel Girl on March 25, 2004, at 14:51:16
> CONGRATULATIONS on the negative cancer test. You must be so relieved. :) YIKES!!!! about your car being totalled though. Are you ok? You didn't say when the baby was due.
car was a hit and run, i wasn't in it. i am not okay, but that's not why.
i'm due late november, just barely pregnant. this will be #4. i thought i was done. also this one does not belong to the same father as my last two. the one i live with... too much to deal with. long long story, won't bore anyone here. my email is still caritasrainbow@yahoo.com if you truly want the horrid details of my stupid behavior. and i only offer because i honestly have no one to turn to, no one to talk to...
and yes, i have told the one i live with i'm pregnant. he knew i was seeing someone else and i didn't have to tell him it's not his. okay, i'll quit now... wish i had some meds.. lol!
Posted by Jeano on March 25, 2004, at 22:54:40
In reply to Re: How long does withdrawal from Effexor last? » caritasrainbow, posted by Angel Girl on March 24, 2004, at 21:58:43
Hey you guys...
Ya see what I'm talkin about? After reading about "brain zings" and nightmares, etc. using Effexor XR (even the smallest dose) for depression seems like a crazy thing for me (personally) to do.
Posted by roomy on March 26, 2004, at 7:03:51
In reply to Re: How long does withdrawal from Effexor last?, posted by Jeano on March 25, 2004, at 22:54:40
> Hey you guys...
>
> Ya see what I'm talkin about? After reading about "brain zings" and nightmares, etc. using Effexor XR (even the smallest dose) for depression seems like a crazy thing for me (personally) to do.Hey, dont let us scare you. I was on Effexor (or one of its sidekick friends, serezone,paxil,wellbutrin) for about 6 years. It did help me when I needed it and IF (and only if) you are good about taking it and dont skip a dose, or run out, you may have good luck with it too! Over the 6 years, I had to keep changing meds or increasing them to get any benefit. Only after the increase, did I start to notice any negative side effects. (the lack of sex drive and weight gain) If I would have had any of these or other side effects early on I certainly wouldnt have stayed on it for 6 years! Just beware that if you want to get OFF the drug, its not a pleasant thing but you can do it. And now that you have read up on it, and done your homework and researched it, you can watch for side effects and know the proper way to wean off when and if you should feel the need to. Knowledge of the drug is a good thing. I wish I would have had that. I prolly still would have been on it and then gone off it...but I would have known what to expect and it would have been my choice. Dont let us scare you, if you need it, go for it. Sometimes you can be "talked into" side effects that you normally wouldnt even notice. I, personally wouldnt take it if it were going to be a life long medication because you will need to continually increase the dose to where the side effects will become noticable. But if its just a temporary thing to get you over a hard time its not that bad of a drug. Just be careful getting OFF it when the time comes!!!
-dont worry! Be Happy!
-Roomy
Posted by Caleb96 on March 26, 2004, at 10:27:24
In reply to Re: How long does withdrawal from Effexor last?, posted by John Andrews on March 24, 2004, at 7:13:04
OK Folks,
I'm going to relate MY experience with going C/T from 300 mg/day of Effexor. KEEP IN MIND THAT EVERTHING I WRITE IS FROM MY PERSONAL ANECTDOTAL EXPERIENCE AND IS NOT A RECOMMENDATION FOR ANY ONE ELSE. DON'T STOP TAKING YOUR MEDS WITHOUT YOUR DOCTOR'S OK (OR AT LEAST INFORM HIM/HER BEFORE YOU DO)!!!
I've been taking 300 mg/day of Effexor for three years. Unfortunately, Effexor has the same sexual side effects as the SSRIs. After taking it for several months, I was literally 'chemically castrated.' The upside of Effexor is its short half-life--if you stop, full sexual function returns in a few days (BTW, I'm 45, so I'm not exactly a kid anymore). I guess everyone knows the downside of stopping Effexor by tapering or cold turkey.
I have had no problems taking Effexor, and it's done wonders for my depression with no side effects other than the sexual issue. The times I've stopped C/T, the only side effect I've experienced is a g*dawful, splitting headache that starts on the second or third day, and lasts a day or two. Standard therapy of NSAIDS (drugs like aspirin, ibuprofen, ketoprofen, and to a lesser extent naproxen, NOT Tylennol[acetominofen]) help take the edge off the pain, but don't 'cure' it like they would a normal headache. After the second day or third day, I generally feel fine and my 'mojo' comes back. By day five I can perform like a 20 year old (no Viagra necessary). Enough of my sex life.
Now, about a year ago, my dentist sent me to a neurologist because my TMJ had gotten much worse and was not responding to a simple acrylic bite guard any longer. The neurologist determined that I had trigeminal neuralgia, a very painful problem that is characterized by sharp pain radiating across the face (in my case into my right eye and upper jaw). He prescribed a drug called gabapentin (Neurontin) 300 mg/3 times a day. That helped a little but I was still having a lot of pain. Last summer he prescribed a stronger drug called carbamazepine (Tegretol). Some of you might recognize that as an anti-epiletic. In fact, there are only two uses for Tegretol--epilepsy and (believe it or not) trigeminal neuralgia.
Tegretol/carbamazepine is an anticonvulsant and specific analgesic for trigeminal neuralgia. From what I've read, it is believe to act on chloride channels in a variety of neurons (I presume it partially depolarizes the neurons by allowing an influx of chloride ions) but the exact mechanism is apparently still unknown. What is known is that carbamazepine has a tonic effect on neurons and thus prevents uncontrolled firing of a variety of neuronal pathways. Think of Tegretol as having a similar effect as the benzodiazepines, only more subtle and widespread throughout the brain.
Having said all that let me get to the point. Recently, I stopped taking Effexor cold turkey (with my psych's permission); at the same time, I was taking Tegretol (300 mg/4 times per day) because my TG neuragia was acting up. I was also taking 1 to 2 mg clonazepam (Klonopin) per day for general anxiety and the heebie geebies. To my surprise, I experienced NO withdrawal effects due to stopping the Effexor (300 mg/day) cold turkey--even after 2+ weeks I feel fine. I am attributing this to the Tegretol, and its ability to prevent major and 'minisezures' and its general calming effect on the brain. CAVEAT: I could be totally wrong. However, I know that Klonopin and/or NSAIDS are not the cause of my lack of withdrawal symptoms, since they have only been of minor help in the past (and I haven't taken any NSAIDS in the past two weeks). I started out on 300 mg Tegretol 4X/day for the first week, dropping to 300 mg 2X/day during the second week. My mood has also remained stable. Keep in mind, however, that Tegretol has side effects of its own--dizziness, drowsiness, light-headed feeling, etc. and in some people it can cause changes in white blood cell counts if taken long term.
I'm curious to know if Dr. Bob has heard any of anecdotal experiences like mine. I don't know if this would work for anyone else, but I would think it's worth a try given some of the posts I read on this site.
Posted by callmedutch on March 27, 2004, at 6:02:28
In reply to Re: How long does withdrawal from Effexor last?, posted by fastblackZZR on March 5, 2004, at 17:57:26
One respectful complaint about this thread -- i haven't seen anyone conclusively answer the question (how long do side effects last?) Is this not documented anywhere? I've heard "weeks" and "months." Is there a range that someone has nailed down. Anyway, my two cents below.
I'm afraid i've had it better than most of you but this is still no day at the races.I did Effexor 150 for nearly three years. I was tired of the side effects -- weight gain (i topped 200 lbs for the first time in my life last summer -- that was great for my mental health) sex, etc.
I knew there would be side effects because even when i was taking 150 (time release variety) once per day i would occasionally miss a dose for whatever reason -- and then the dizziness, "clicking" that you've all described very faithfully.
I told my doc I wanted out and she basically said, "ok, well just stop taking it over time. you know, gradually." Not the best , most specific advice but i figured it must not be that hard... yeah, funny , i know.
So i'm down to 37.5 mg every 2 to 2.5 days until i can't stand feeling like i just left happy hour. then it starts again. no end in sight. this is depressing.
Posted by roomy on March 27, 2004, at 7:41:56
In reply to Re: How long does withdrawal from Effexor last?, posted by callmedutch on March 27, 2004, at 6:02:28
How long do the withdrawl side effects last? Its kinda funny that you should have to ask since you are right...it is the name of the thread!!!I BEGGED for that same answer when I was trying to stop! Here is my guess and if I am wrong I am sure you will get other people's two cents as well and still be as confused as you are now! lol
What I personally think is this: no matter how slowly you wean/taper/cut back... you will still suffer the worse withdrawl symptoms after you stop taking it all together. How long those symptoms last I would think, has a lot to do with how long your body was used to them and how slowly you tapered. I tapered in about a month and then finally stopped all toghether after being on it for like 6 years. You say that you are on the 37.5 and are taking in every two days? My guess is that you are dragging out the weaning time and you are still gonna suffer withdrawl after you stop so just find a time where you can take a few days off and just stop! About 5 days of the headaches, zaps, dizziness, tired, etc. Then after that....I was just TIRED TIRED TIRED and ocassionally dizzy. Some people take meds to help with the withdrawl symptoms like I took antivert (motion sickness medication) for the dizziness (and it knocked me out) Other people say the benedryl helped them (again they were prolly just knocked out. When I did have to get out and about I took the over the counter anti-sleep stuff (no-doz or stingers or something like that) The real bad side effects last about 5-10 days I would guess and then is just a matter of getting yourself back to normal (what ever that is)I have been off it since January 1st and I am not sure I feel "normal" yet but I sure as heck feel better!!!! Plus I lost 14 pounds and have my sex drive back. I know my hubby feels better!!!heheheheh
sorry so lengthly! good luck! hang in there and tuff it out. -Roomy
Posted by flygirl on March 27, 2004, at 8:45:16
In reply to Re: How long does withdrawal from Effexor last? » callmedutch, posted by roomy on March 27, 2004, at 7:41:56
HELP! Please give me some info ASAP! My husband has been taken off of 300mg zoloft (tapered) and tapered onto 150mg effexor. Just this past week he is up to the full 150 dose and completely off the zoloft. During this past week he has had horrible side effects...no zaps yet (he had those once after cold turkey stopping the zoloft and learned his lesson) but horrible chills/sweats, headache, the runs, twitches constantly and feels he can't control that, feels he's loosing it in his brain and will never be the same again. He's not withdrawing as he is still on it...but could he be taking too much??? As in he had wonderful results from taking just the 3 pills a day for about 2.5 weeks...then when he got to the 4 and off the zoloft completely, this all started! Now he's anti Dr.'s (which I don't totally blame him) and swearing he will go off all meds entirely asap! I want to help him with the best info I can. He won't call his Dr. yet...(I will be soon)
Lastly, his job is safety related so he is not allowed to work, by law, while taking any sort of anti depressants.....does anyone know of any "wholeistic" (sp?) ways to fight depression?
Please help asap!
thanks
flygirl
Posted by flygirl on March 27, 2004, at 8:49:59
In reply to Re: How long does withdrawal from Effexor last? » roomy, posted by flygirl on March 27, 2004, at 8:45:16
Hello again...please excuse my learning how to use this site...I just registered and am trying to learn asap.
thanks again
flygirl
Posted by Jeano on March 27, 2004, at 11:27:51
In reply to Re: How long does withdrawal from Effexor last? » roomy, posted by flygirl on March 27, 2004, at 8:45:16
> HELP! Please give me some info ASAP! .....does anyone know of any "wholeistic" (sp?) ways to fight depression?
I know that a lot of Chiropracters are into wholelistic healing methods. Try one in your area. I have been off Effexor XR for 2 days now. I was only on it for a week but after reading here about withdrawal symtoms, I said, "NO WAY AM I GOING TO DO THIS!" Now I'm taking St John's Wart and another product (mail order only) called Prime One. I have had NO side effects, yet.
Plus I take Advil Cold and Sinus for allergy relief right now. Maybe that's curbing the possibility of headaches?
We'll see.Jeano
Posted by worm on March 27, 2004, at 21:26:04
In reply to Re: How long does withdrawal from Effexor last?, posted by Jeano on March 27, 2004, at 11:27:51
Just be careful. I have heard that St. John's wort can interfere with birth control pills. There are other complications that I can't remember now.
Posted by Marjean on March 31, 2004, at 18:24:22
In reply to Effexor withdrawal - very bad news, posted by janey on November 1, 1998, at 16:30:34
I have been on Effexor XR for three years b/c of mild to severe panic attacks, mild depression, etc. Initially, I didn't want to take the meds but started them out of desperation--gynecologist wrote me a prescription; go figure. At first I had some icky side effects-- insomnia, racing heart, stomach aches-- but once they subsided I was very thankful for the neds until like many of you I missed a pill or tried to stop taking them. Just like all of you I experienced vertigo, nausea, the inability to think clearly or make decisions, incontrollable crying, diahreah, shakiness. When I wetn to see a doctor about easing off or switching meds-- because frankly the withdrawal side effects freaked me out-- she insisted that I wasn't taking enough medication and upped me from 75mg a day to 225mg a day. At first that seemed okay but I ended up with the same problems and a strong desire to try again med-free.
I have been easing myself off of effexor for the past three weeks without the help of a doctor and have met with success! While the other times I had tried, I ended up so sick I went right back on the meds this time is different. Partly, I think it is because I was prepared but also I have decided to try to counteract the withdrawal symptoms with herbs, vitamins, and homeopathic meds. I don't know if this will work for you-- I know that everyone is different-- but it may help.
I take a multivitamin-- Nature's Plus "Source of Life-- Original Formula" every morning, and then a dose of "Hi-Stress B&C" with Herbs by Source Naturals once or twice a day. I have also been taking a homeopathic medicine for motion sickness whenever I feel lightheaded, nauseous, or dizzy-- Cocculus Indicus distributed by Boiron. I also have a prescription for colonopin which I usually only use in emergencies but it has been helpful for me to take one every evening while I am working my way off of effexor. (Otherwise, I generally have bad nightmares and have found that the end of the day is worse for me than the beginning.)
I was able to ease down to 75mg fairly easily but started having trouble after that. I have been dividing my capsules up and am now taking less than 37mg a day. I do get light-headed, dizzy, and can become easily emotional when triggered but I am aware that this is all due to the withdrawal and I am dealing with it. Aside from that, I actually feel great wich surprised me. I am a middle scool teacher and am able to conquer my day still! That should attest to something. I wish everyone trying to live med-free or switch from effexor the best of luck. It's a hard road but it's possible!
Posted by cyclegrrrl on March 31, 2004, at 21:51:30
In reply to I may have good news!, posted by Marjean on March 31, 2004, at 18:24:22
I went cold turkey from 150 mg about two weeks ago. The first 5 days I had really bad dreams, felt tired, had an upset stomach, and itched like crazy. Two weeks later, the bad dreams are gone, I'm feeling MUCH better (no longer have that unpredictable bottom falling out of my life fatigue that the effexor was giving me, which feels really really good, and was the primary reason I went off the drug). My stomach is still a bit touchy, but much better. The itching, however, has not let up. But at least I know from the posts of others that this too will go away eventually. I just WISH my doctor or the effexor information sheet would have warned me that these are withdrawal symptoms because it wasn't until about four days ago when I decided to google "effexor withdrawal" that I found these posts by others explaining what was happenind to me. I am MAD that the drug companies, at the very least, don't disclose this information, at least I didn't see it anywhere. It would have made enduring the bad dreams and discomfort a lot easier. To everyone out there getting Effexor -- hang in there, it does get better...
peace.
Posted by Marjean on March 31, 2004, at 22:53:53
In reply to itchy, bad dreams... so it's not me!, posted by cyclegrrrl on March 31, 2004, at 21:51:30
The more I read the more I feel confident that I am not completely crazy. I also have been uncontrollably itchy at times-- esp since the doc upped my dose. I would scratch my skin raw and thought I was having a reaction to the climate or something-- although the climate hadn't changed?!? I never related that to the drug. Epiphany! Also, I never related my nightmares or digestive problems with effexor but they completely coincide. No doctor or drug company was honest about this info. The only thing I found was medical documentation on SSRI withdrawal which cites many of these problems. I am so happy to hear that you were able to quit cold turkey. I have more faith.
Posted by Marjean on March 31, 2004, at 23:04:46
In reply to Re: How long does withdrawal from Effexor last? » roomy, posted by flygirl on March 27, 2004, at 8:45:16
As far as holistic meds, I made a suggestion earlier but I don't think that my "treatment" will work in your case. I would consult either a holistic/internal medicine doctor or an acupuncturist (although those will be expensive ~$150-200 first vist and maybe $90 thereafter with no insurance coverage) or visit a local co-op that has a herbs/vitamins counter and/or an herbalist (many work in wellness, yoga, or eastern medicine centers). Depression, etc are very serious but I really question these meds. It sounds like what you husband is gong throuh is horrible and that only complicates the initial problem. Do you exercise? Diet is another consideration. No drug should make a person feel worse. That has happened to me several times and it makes me very angry. Best of luck. Keep us posted.
Posted by jeano on April 1, 2004, at 0:19:06
In reply to itchy, bad dreams... so it's not me!, posted by cyclegrrrl on March 31, 2004, at 21:51:30
I went off of Effexor XR cold turkey one week ago, today. I was on a very low dose though so I didn't think it would effect me that much. Wrong! At times my legs feel like lead and I ache all over. And my stomach upset (especially the runs) has been horrible.
I went to a health food store today and the nutritianist there told me that I need to be taking an Acidoophilus supplement to put the "good bacteria" back in my digestive system. I bought some and took it earlier today. I can already feel my stomach beginning to calm down.
Also, I too am MAD at the whole Effexor thing because I tried talk to my doctor about side effects but he just blew me off and said "rarely are there side effects involving AD..." Right then and there, I decided to quit taking the Effexor. It hasn't been easy but I'm NOT going to take this drug again! I too am trying nutritional alternatives.
Posted by flygirl on April 1, 2004, at 9:34:22
In reply to for husband/wife with zoloft/effexor issue, posted by Marjean on March 31, 2004, at 23:04:46
<< Depression, etc are very serious but I really question these meds. It sounds like what you husband is gong throuh is horrible and that only complicates the initial problem. Do you exercise? Diet is another consideration. No drug should make a person feel worse. That has happened to me several times and it makes me very angry. Best of luck. Keep us posted.>>
Thanks for your info. We went to pdoc on Monday and he virtually dismissed any chance of "serotonin syndrome". We kept asking "what happened then..." and he said he didn't know. Finally, I put him on the spot and asked if possibly he could have increased his does of effexor too quickly! His reply was a sheepish, "well, that's a possiblity...." Of course he wouldn't admit to any mistake! ARGH!
He is now taking just 75mg of effexor...nothing else...doing well so far...but we are so "gun shy" from previous experiences that we're afraid to get our hopes up. Plus, my husband is DREADING the day that he has to go off of the effexor....trust us, it will be at a VERY VERY slow rate....regardless of what the pdoc says! Let the pdoc experience these sideaffects and then see what he has to say!
Hubby used to exercise adn eat right and have spirituality in his life...but depression has stolen all of that...in fact, anything that was/is good for him.....we are slowly working on trying to bring those things back into his life.
Sleeping at night and not during the day would be a good start!!!
I'll keep you posted!
wife of hubby!
Posted by worm on April 1, 2004, at 12:42:37
In reply to Re: for husband/wife with zoloft/effexor issue » Marjean, posted by flygirl on April 1, 2004, at 9:34:22
I have been weaning off 150s by taking out first about half the little pills in the capsule, and then about 3/4, and since I had some time off of work, I decided to stop completely. I have been off totally for 3 days now, and my muscle weakness is gone, my brain is clearing up (I had no idea how "fuzzy" I was - I can now remember names of people, and I can have a continuous thought for more than 2 seconds) I feel so much better already, and I know I'm not totally there yet! The only problem is every so often I get sad and weepy, melancholy. As long as I can "ride out" these spells, I think I'm going to make it. Fortunately, they only last a few minutes.
At least I feel like its worth it to hang in there until tomorrow - when I was taking Effexor, I was positively despondant, thought there was nothing worth living for. Strange for an antidepressant to do this, but like we have all discovered, everyone is different!
So take heart, people, and do whatever works for you. There is life after Effexor.
msg
Posted by Marjean on April 1, 2004, at 19:31:33
In reply to Re: for husband/wife with zoloft/effexor issue » Marjean, posted by flygirl on April 1, 2004, at 9:34:22
I just wanted you to know that your in my thoughts. Depression and the factors that lead to depression, coupled with the problems faced with meds can be so disabling. I am glad to hear that your husband is doing better on the 75mg. I hope that you both can find a way to regain the beauties in life. Please keep me posted.
Posted by triedalldrugs on April 2, 2004, at 9:40:18
In reply to Re: How long does withdrawal from Effexor last?, posted by fastblackZZR on March 7, 2004, at 19:33:17
I have just quit Effexor cold turkey. I was only on 75 mg a day but couldn't stand the insomnia and other side effects from taking this drug. I am so thankful for this thread! I thought I was going (more) crazy with all the weird withdrawal side effects, which I wouldn't have even known were side effects if it weren't for this thread!! Thank you all. My question is, should I continue cold turkey (I am on day 4), or empty out the capsules and taper off gradually as you have suggested. If I am already through the worst of it, I don't want to start up the Effexor again. But some of you have said that the withdrawal lasts for weeks, and I don't know if I can handle that.
Thanks for any help.
Posted by Christina Ann on April 2, 2004, at 15:02:51
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal - my approach, posted by suzicreamcheese on January 1, 2004, at 1:19:53
I don't think going off is a great idea. I just found this website doing research on exercise addiction. I ran a gym for 8 yrs. There is no way that one can find that missing seratonin through exercise. I did tried. And I went nutty. I have been on all kinds of anti-depressants and Effexor XR is the only one that has actually worked. If I miss a day or two, look out. I am a firm believer in not taking meds, but along with the birth control patch, this is the only thing that I have that's prescribed, and I wouldn't change it at all. Been there...hated it. But good luck if you feel this is something you need to do.
Christina
Posted by annesand on April 5, 2004, at 7:31:19
In reply to Re: How long does withdrawal from Effexor last?, posted by triedalldrugs on April 2, 2004, at 9:40:18
About three weeks ago, I started opening up my 150 capsules and taking about 1/4 of the little dots inside. The first few days were rough, but now side effects are minimal, and I am down to just a few "dots" per day. I took vacation time last week because I thought I might not feel well, but I felt fine. Some brain zaps, especially first thing in the morning before taking the dots, but otherwise able to work, function, play, enjoy things. In short, it is going better than I thought it would. Planning to stop all together on Friday. Thanks for your collective wisdom. It helps so much!
Posted by ku4ns on April 6, 2004, at 20:24:23
In reply to Re: How long does withdrawal from Effexor last?, posted by annesand on April 5, 2004, at 7:31:19
Why not get a lower dose? 37.5 mg is available. If it works I guess that great, but there are lower dosages. I'm a few days out from no effexor, but i'm using prozac to help rid myself of the effexor. Good luck. John
Posted by flygirl on April 7, 2004, at 9:51:32
In reply to Re: for husband/wife with zoloft/effexor issue, posted by Marjean on April 1, 2004, at 19:31:33
> I just wanted you to know that your in my thoughts. Depression and the factors that lead to depression, coupled with the problems faced with meds can be so disabling. I am glad to hear that your husband is doing better on the 75mg. I hope that you both can find a way to regain the beauties in life. Please keep me posted.<
Thanks againe Marjean. I'm finding it tough for myself these days, just to keep doing what "needs" to be done! I'm long past the fact that "dust will wait" and "laundry will wait".....how about the serious things like returning calls to his employment supervisors who are checking in on him?!? Looking into more avenues of financial reimbursement through his union and disability etc...ARGH! On good days he says he's going to do these things...either that day, shortly or tomorrow...and I hesitantly believe him...but somehow they never seem to get done and I struggle with waiting...it just adds to my stress. My therapist has upped my prozac to 40mg to help me get by. That seems to have helped a little bit...but overall the stress is just killing me. Thanks for listening, I just needed to vent!
Posted by Christina Ann on April 7, 2004, at 19:12:58
In reply to Re: How long does withdrawal from Effexor last?, posted by ku4ns on April 6, 2004, at 20:24:23
Why is everyone so intent on getting off? Is it that bad? Is someone not telling me something?
Christina
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