![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 435 to 459 of 735. Go back in thread:
Posted by AIK on September 27, 2004, at 16:17:09
In reply to Re: Effexor -tapering Q, posted by Dave001 on September 24, 2004, at 0:37:39
In response to the post below regarding dissolving the Effexor XR capsules in water or another solvent, please, any of you tapering down, do not do this unless you ask your doctor or pharmacist (someone who has expertise in this area). In refuting Dave's recommendation I have following input.
1. The contents of the capsule will not dissolve in water. It is formulated to dissolve at various pH levels throughout the GI tract. This is done in order to provide an extended release action.
2. Even if you are able to find a suitable solvent, you would be changing from the extended release action to an immediate release dose of Effexor. Changing dosage forms should never be done without the supervision and recommendation of a health professional.
It is unfortunate that this site has become a pissing contest for us that are looking for support with others during our experiences with the drug Effexor, whether it being the usage or it's withdrawal symtoms.
I am fortunate to say that since I logged on to this site a few weeks ago I have gained more knowledge and support from the same withdrawal symtoms I experienced (because I thought I had contracted a virus, infection, whatever) to find out it was the improper stoppage of the Effexor. I am also happy to say that since I have properly decreased by dosage slowly, I had the most energetic weekend that I can remember. We are on this site to support, share, and be there for one another. I don't want to sound disrespectful Dr.
Bob, "but you knocked off the wrong the person". I would appreciate it if you would post this message, at your discretion of course, so others will not attempt to concoct the "XR capsule recipe" into a tapering down formulation. This is not the place for a lay person to reformulate Effexor. I was under the assuption that this was a support group..like I said before, you knocked off the wrong person.
> > I have read a lot of posts about tapering and "cutting the pills". My effexor is in caplets (I think...plastic containers with little particles inside them). Is there some way to open these up and separate the contents? I have a whole bunch of 75mg that I am supposed to start next week, but I would rather stick to 37.5 for a while (what I am on now). Is it ok to dissolve the effexor in water or mix it in food or something instead of just taking the whole capsule?
>
> If I were concerned about withdrawal from Effexor, this is what I would do: check a recent copy of the Merck Index to find out the solubility of venlafaxine. Choose an appropriate solvent and dissolve the contents of the capsules into a solution from which you can easily measure precise
> amounts. By using a lot of solvent, you could make it easy to dispense doses with a reasonable accuracy of +/- 1/mg. I would probably fill a 100 ml graduated cylinder with the solution, and then use that to prefill syringes (you can get oral syringes from the supermarket) with the desired amounts for each day. For obvious reasons the most you would need per day in a solution would be < 37.5 mg if you have 37.5 mg caps, or < 75 mg if you have 75 mg caps. Don't know the stability of venlafaxine but you should refrigerate the solution, and preferably use something other than water.
>
> I doubt you would notice any withdrawal symptoms if you reduced the dose by 1 mg/day. If there's no pressing need to discontinue the drug, why not? :-)
>
> Dave
Posted by Dave001 on September 27, 2004, at 18:56:47
In reply to Re: Effexor -tapering Q, posted by AIK on September 27, 2004, at 16:17:09
> In response to the post below regarding dissolving the Effexor XR capsules in water or another solvent, please, any of you tapering down, do not do this unless you ask your doctor or pharmacist (someone who has expertise in this area). In refuting Dave's recommendation I have following input.
> 1. The contents of the capsule will not dissolve in water. It is formulated to dissolve at various pH levels throughout the GI tract. This is done in order to provide an extended release action.Wrong! Actually, I never said to dissolve in water. I said to check the Merck Index for solubility data, and specifically recommended *against* using water. However, seeing as how you've made the claim that it will *not* dissolve in water, I feel the need to correct your misinformation.
I just grabbed my copy of the Merck Index and have it right here in front of me, and it states the solubility of venlafaxine HCl is 572 mg/ml in water! And its partition coefficient is 0.43 (octanol/water). Not only will it dissolve in water, its water solubility is so high that I retract my original statement and actually *recommend* using water as the solvent. Just be sure to keep it refrigerated and don't dissolve too many days worth at once. Also, use distilled water; don't use tap.
> 2. Even if you are able to find a suitable solvent, you would be changing from the extended release action to an immediate release dose of Effexor. Changing dosage forms should never be done without the supervision and recommendation of a health professional.I think the intelligence of the OP is high enough to realize that dissolving (dissociating the drug into individual *molecules*) the Effexor will destroy the integrity of the extended release formulation! Sheesh! :-) Obviously, you just take several smaller doses spread out to maintain a consistent level.
I am by no means suggesting this is a convenient or even desirable method of tapering, but if the withdrawal effects are *that* bad, then it would certainly seem worth it to me.
Dave
<snip>
Posted by AIK on September 28, 2004, at 9:43:01
In reply to Re: Effexor -tapering Q, posted by Dave001 on September 27, 2004, at 18:56:47
You are right. I am wrong. The spheroids are not ph dependent. Would they be time dependent however? (for those of you who are following us, we are referring to the white balls inside the capsule). This has created some interest and experimentation on my part (like I don't have enough to do). Support group, this has nothing to do with ingesting the drug...don't attempt it at this point. In fact, Dave did say earlier that it may be an alternative to tapering with capsules, but doesn't recommend it. I think he has raised the hair on the back of our necks when he minimizes our physical and mental pain. Also using asterisks when he refers to "if the withdrawal effects are *that* bad". Yes, it is *that* bad for these readers or they wouldn't be on this site. Dave has contributed a good part to this as well. It has raised our awareness that playing around with dosage changes or altering dosage forms, (tablets/capsules in this case) other than what was prescribed for YOU without supervision, is not acceptable. You could wind up being more of a mess than when you started. To my support group I'd like to add that I'm on my 6th day of a dosage decrease and I haven't experienced throwing up or dizziness (like I did initially), and the mood swings have lessened as well. Just get these bursts of energy. In fact, on Saturday, it was non-stop. Upon awakening, I got cleaned up and dressed and motored the entire day. The "old me" would shuffle to the kitchen and perch somewhere (kitchen, sofa, desk) and remain there as the day passed by. Day after day. That's when I was on the drug. (To refresh your memory, I was put on this for pain, not anxiety; it didn't do "squat" for my pain...was I that brain-dead not to have realized this sooner?)OK folks, have a good one and a better one tomorrow. I'm here if you need to talk.
> > In response to the post below regarding dissolving the Effexor XR capsules in water or another solvent, please, any of you tapering down, do not do this unless you ask your doctor or pharmacist (someone who has expertise in this area). In refuting Dave's recommendation I have following input.
> > 1. The contents of the capsule will not dissolve in water. It is formulated to dissolve at various pH levels throughout the GI tract. This is done in order to provide an extended release action.
>
> Wrong! Actually, I never said to dissolve in water. I said to check the Merck Index for solubility data, and specifically recommended *against* using water. However, seeing as how you've made the claim that it will *not* dissolve in water, I feel the need to correct your misinformation.
>
> I just grabbed my copy of the Merck Index and have it right here in front of me, and it states the solubility of venlafaxine HCl is 572 mg/ml in water! And its partition coefficient is 0.43 (octanol/water). Not only will it dissolve in water, its water solubility is so high that I retract my original statement and actually *recommend* using water as the solvent. Just be sure to keep it refrigerated and don't dissolve too many days worth at once. Also, use distilled water; don't use tap.
>
>
> > 2. Even if you are able to find a suitable solvent, you would be changing from the extended release action to an immediate release dose of Effexor. Changing dosage forms should never be done without the supervision and recommendation of a health professional.
>
> I think the intelligence of the OP is high enough to realize that dissolving (dissociating the drug into individual *molecules*) the Effexor will destroy the integrity of the extended release formulation! Sheesh! :-) Obviously, you just take several smaller doses spread out to maintain a consistent level.
>
> I am by no means suggesting this is a convenient or even desirable method of tapering, but if the withdrawal effects are *that* bad, then it would certainly seem worth it to me.
>
> Dave
>
> <snip>
Posted by dbh on September 28, 2004, at 13:20:52
In reply to Re: Effexor -tapering Q, posted by AIK on September 28, 2004, at 9:43:01
AIK, that was an incredibly "lucid" post. I'm serious, that was a joy to read. It went right to the heart of the matter, IMO.
I started my own "tapering" process yesterday, stepping down from my normal 75mg XR to 37.5. My doctor (a GP), first suggested going to 37.5 for "a week or two" and then stopping completely. I said I would be more comfortable tapering off more slowly than that, so he then suggested alternating 75 and 37.5, then going to 37.5, then taking 37.5 every other day. How long I stayed at each level he left up to me. He gave me a box of 37.5 capsules plus a script for another 30. He then said he would see me in 6 weeks. :-/
So, here I am, "on my own" for the next 6 weeks, left to my own devices for deciding how much to take and for how many days.
I am going to follow his original advice and drop straight to 37.5 and just see how that goes. If it goes real easy, I might stay there for only two weeks. If it goes real bad, I will start alternating 37.5 and 75, although I am concerned about a possible "roller coaster" effect. I have read where the "half-life" of venlafaxine (Effexor) is only like 5 hours, but I don't know about the XR (timed release) version. So my concern is that by alternating dosages, my body could get even more screwed up than purely reducing the dosage.
In other words, this feels like a chemistry experiment.
So far (this is just the beginning of my second day at 37.5) I have had no strong symptoms. I have had MAYBE some mild symptoms, but so far nothing worth mentioning.
BTW, I tend to post a LOT, so if there is a more "appropriate" place for me to post, such as a new thread, please let me know.
David
Posted by AIK on September 28, 2004, at 13:49:47
In reply to Beginning my tapering off, posted by dbh on September 28, 2004, at 13:20:52
Call or better yet, go talk to your pharmacist and he/she will give that information to you as far as "half-life" of the drug and other questions you may have. If you do mail order for your medication, you may not get the response in a timely manner and have that "one on one" thing going on as you would face to face. If you can get through the next few days without getting severely ill with what your doctor told you to do, that would be great. Only your body, not mine or anyone else's, will determine it's own reactions, if any (please be one of the fortunate ones!).
> AIK, that was an incredibly "lucid" post. I'm serious, that was a joy to read. It went right to the heart of the matter, IMO.
>
> I started my own "tapering" process yesterday, stepping down from my normal 75mg XR to 37.5. My doctor (a GP), first suggested going to 37.5 for "a week or two" and then stopping completely. I said I would be more comfortable tapering off more slowly than that, so he then suggested alternating 75 and 37.5, then going to 37.5, then taking 37.5 every other day. How long I stayed at each level he left up to me. He gave me a box of 37.5 capsules plus a script for another 30. He then said he would see me in 6 weeks. :-/
>
> So, here I am, "on my own" for the next 6 weeks, left to my own devices for deciding how much to take and for how many days.
>
> I am going to follow his original advice and drop straight to 37.5 and just see how that goes. If it goes real easy, I might stay there for only two weeks. If it goes real bad, I will start alternating 37.5 and 75, although I am concerned about a possible "roller coaster" effect. I have read where the "half-life" of venlafaxine (Effexor) is only like 5 hours, but I don't know about the XR (timed release) version. So my concern is that by alternating dosages, my body could get even more screwed up than purely reducing the dosage.
>
> In other words, this feels like a chemistry experiment.
>
> So far (this is just the beginning of my second day at 37.5) I have had no strong symptoms. I have had MAYBE some mild symptoms, but so far nothing worth mentioning.
>
> BTW, I tend to post a LOT, so if there is a more "appropriate" place for me to post, such as a new thread, please let me know.
>
> David
Posted by Dave001 on September 28, 2004, at 13:52:48
In reply to Re: Effexor -tapering Q, posted by AIK on September 28, 2004, at 9:43:01
> You are right. I am wrong. The spheroids are not ph dependent. Would they be time dependent however? (for those of you who are following us, we are referring to the white balls inside the capsule). This has created some interest and
I don't know anything about the specifics of how the extended release preparation was designed. The entire issue becomes obsolete once you're dissolving things.
> experimentation on my part (like I don't have enough to do). Support group, this has nothing to do with ingesting the drug...don't attempt it at this point. In fact, Dave did say earlier that it may be an alternative to tapering with capsules, but doesn't recommend it. I think he has raised the hair on the back of our necks when he minimizes our physical and mental pain. Also using asterisks when he refers to "if the withdrawal effects are *that* bad". Yes, it is *that* bad for these readers or they wouldn't be on this site.
Nothing I said was intended to minimize anyone's pain. I've already said that, but I guess it's not enough. Yes, I used asterisks when I said, "if the withdrawal effects are *that* bad." That just means what it says: if they are *that* bad for *you*. Some people don't find the withdrawal that big of a deal; others have a lot of difficulty. It varies. For someone not having great difficulty tapering the conventional way, it probably wouldn't be worth the hassle to fiddle with the capsules. That's all that was meant. The OP didn't indicate having a problem with tapering; IIRC, she had not yet even begun the process.
> Dave has contributed a good part to this as well. It has raised our awareness that playing around with dosage changes or altering dosage forms, (tablets/capsules in this case) other than what was prescribed for YOU without supervision, is not acceptable. You could wind up being more of
Not acceptable to whom? I assume we are all adults here. I think it is the individual's choice whether to ask their doctor for "permission," which they will not receive, to reduce the dose in the manner described. A compounding pharmacist whom has specifically prepared custom Effexor formulations would likely know more about this than your doctor.
Dave
<snip>
Posted by AIK on September 28, 2004, at 14:10:35
In reply to Re: Effexor -tapering Q, posted by Dave001 on September 28, 2004, at 13:52:48
Amen to that Dave. A compounding pharmacist is the way to go as far as knowledge in reformulation of drugs. (Finding a doctor that works along with the pharmacist for an individual's special needs are hard to come by).
> > You are right. I am wrong. The spheroids are not ph dependent. Would they be time dependent however? (for those of you who are following us, we are referring to the white balls inside the capsule). This has created some interest and
>
> I don't know anything about the specifics of how the extended release preparation was designed. The entire issue becomes obsolete once you're dissolving things.
>
> > experimentation on my part (like I don't have enough to do). Support group, this has nothing to do with ingesting the drug...don't attempt it at this point. In fact, Dave did say earlier that it may be an alternative to tapering with capsules, but doesn't recommend it. I think he has raised the hair on the back of our necks when he minimizes our physical and mental pain. Also using asterisks when he refers to "if the withdrawal effects are *that* bad". Yes, it is *that* bad for these readers or they wouldn't be on this site.
>
> Nothing I said was intended to minimize anyone's pain. I've already said that, but I guess it's not enough. Yes, I used asterisks when I said, "if the withdrawal effects are *that* bad." That just means what it says: if they are *that* bad for *you*. Some people don't find the withdrawal that big of a deal; others have a lot of difficulty. It varies. For someone not having great difficulty tapering the conventional way, it probably wouldn't be worth the hassle to fiddle with the capsules. That's all that was meant. The OP didn't indicate having a problem with tapering; IIRC, she had not yet even begun the process.
>
> > Dave has contributed a good part to this as well. It has raised our awareness that playing around with dosage changes or altering dosage forms, (tablets/capsules in this case) other than what was prescribed for YOU without supervision, is not acceptable. You could wind up being more of
>
> Not acceptable to whom? I assume we are all adults here. I think it is the individual's choice whether to ask their doctor for "permission," which they will not receive, to reduce the dose in the manner described. A compounding pharmacist whom has specifically prepared custom Effexor formulations would likely know more about this than your doctor.
>
> Dave
>
> <snip>
Posted by Dave001 on September 28, 2004, at 14:16:56
In reply to Beginning my tapering off, posted by dbh on September 28, 2004, at 13:20:52
> AIK, that was an incredibly "lucid" post. I'm serious, that was a joy to read. It went right to the heart of the matter, IMO.
>
> I started my own "tapering" process yesterday, stepping down from my normal 75mg XR to 37.5. My doctor (a GP), first suggested going to 37.5 for "a week or two" and then stopping completely. I said I would be more comfortable tapering off more slowly than that, so he then suggested alternating 75 and 37.5, then going to 37.5, then taking 37.5 every other day. How long I stayed at each level he left up to me. He gave me a box of 37.5 capsules plus a script for another 30. He then said he would see me in 6 weeks. :-/
>
> So, here I am, "on my own" for the next 6 weeks, left to my own devices for deciding how much to take and for how many days.
>
> I am going to follow his original advice and drop straight to 37.5 and just see how that goes. If it goes real easy, I might stay there for only two weeks. If it goes real bad, I will start alternating 37.5 and 75, although I am concerned about a possible "roller coaster" effect. I have read where the "half-life" of venlafaxine (Effexor) is only like 5 hours, but I don't know about the XR (timed release) version. So my concern is that by alternating dosages, my body could get even more screwed up than purely reducing the dosage.
>
> In other words, this feels like a chemistry experiment.
>
> So far (this is just the beginning of my second day at 37.5) I have had no strong symptoms. I have had MAYBE some mild symptoms, but so far nothing worth mentioning.You could alternatively try taking 37.5 mg every 16 hours for an even smoother effect than alternating between 37.5 and 75 mg, but there would not likely be any noticable difference.
You are on a very low dose, and I would be shocked if you noticed any significant withdrawal effects. I really think that all these horror stories being posted are likely to do more harm than good, since they can set one up psychologically to expect an unrealistic and horrific response, in effect creating an adverse placebo effect. I don't see how that can rightfully be called "support." If you have a bad withdrawal reaction, certainly don't be ashamed of it or hesitant to post your experience, but don't needlessly set yourself up to experience one either. Many people have been on and off Effexor at doses over 5-fold greater than yours with minimal trouble discontinuing, so try not to worry or think about it too much.
Dave
Posted by AIK on September 28, 2004, at 14:42:21
In reply to Re: Effexor -tapering Q, posted by Dave001 on September 28, 2004, at 13:52:48
Forgot to add to Dave's response to me (AIK),that his statement "getting a doctor's "permission" which you won't get" (referring to tapering) is probably 100% correct.
> > You are right. I am wrong. The spheroids are not ph dependent. Would they be time dependent however? (for those of you who are following us, we are referring to the white balls inside the capsule). This has created some interest and
>
> I don't know anything about the specifics of how the extended release preparation was designed. The entire issue becomes obsolete once you're dissolving things.
>
> > experimentation on my part (like I don't have enough to do). Support group, this has nothing to do with ingesting the drug...don't attempt it at this point. In fact, Dave did say earlier that it may be an alternative to tapering with capsules, but doesn't recommend it. I think he has raised the hair on the back of our necks when he minimizes our physical and mental pain. Also using asterisks when he refers to "if the withdrawal effects are *that* bad". Yes, it is *that* bad for these readers or they wouldn't be on this site.
>
> Nothing I said was intended to minimize anyone's pain. I've already said that, but I guess it's not enough. Yes, I used asterisks when I said, "if the withdrawal effects are *that* bad." That just means what it says: if they are *that* bad for *you*. Some people don't find the withdrawal that big of a deal; others have a lot of difficulty. It varies. For someone not having great difficulty tapering the conventional way, it probably wouldn't be worth the hassle to fiddle with the capsules. That's all that was meant. The OP didn't indicate having a problem with tapering; IIRC, she had not yet even begun the process.
>
> > Dave has contributed a good part to this as well. It has raised our awareness that playing around with dosage changes or altering dosage forms, (tablets/capsules in this case) other than what was prescribed for YOU without supervision, is not acceptable. You could wind up being more of
>
> Not acceptable to whom? I assume we are all adults here. I think it is the individual's choice whether to ask their doctor for "permission," which they will not receive, to reduce the dose in the manner described. A compounding pharmacist whom has specifically prepared custom Effexor formulations would likely know more about this than your doctor.
>
> Dave
>
> <snip>
Posted by Bubblehead on September 28, 2004, at 20:51:42
In reply to Re: Effexor -tapering Q, posted by Dave001 on September 28, 2004, at 13:52:48
> I think it is the individual's choice whether to ask their doctor for "permission," which
they will not receive, to reduce the dose in the manner described. A compounding
pharmacist whom has specifically prepared custom Effexor formulations would likely
know more about this than your doctor.>
Sorry Dave, but I've got to disagree with ya here. I did not even ask my doctor to do this
(mixing the stuff in water) and guess what? Yep, He told me to. Actually he told me to
just dump out half of the capsule and take it that way. After reading what you all have
said about this; it makes me wonder what kind of ding-dong I was going to. See Dave,
this is what I was trying to express before. These Doctor's are not educated on the meds
and we are the ones paying the price for thier ignorance.
>> experimentation on my part (like I don't have enough to do). Support group, this has
nothing to do with ingesting the drug...don't attempt it at this point. In fact, Dave did say
earlier that it may be an alternative to tapering with capsules, but doesn't recommend it. I
think he has raised the hair on the back of our necks when he minimizes our physical and
mental pain. Also using asterisks when he refers to "if the withdrawal effects are *that*
bad". Yes, it is *that* bad for these readers or they wouldn't be on this site.>Nothing I said was intended to minimize anyone's pain. I've already said that, but I guess
it's not enough. Yes, I used asterisks when I said, "if the withdrawal effects are *that*
bad." That just means what it says: if they are *that* bad for *you*. Some people don't
find the withdrawal that big of a deal; others have a lot of difficulty. It varies. For someone
not having great difficulty tapering the conventional way, it probably wouldn't be worth
the hassle to fiddle with the capsules. That's all that was meant. The OP didn't indicate
having a problem with tapering; IIRC, she had not yet even begun the process.<
Oh my Dave, I think we all have seen the worst in you without even noticing the good. I
think your post about the withdrawl and the need to sue has given you a bad reputation.
Don't be confused, I am still in disagreement with you about this; but from reading your
prior posts I see where you are coming from. Let me see if I have this right. You feel that
by sueing the Drug company we are saying that there will be an end to them finding great
cures and helps for the others that need it in the world. Is that it? If I am right, let me just
say that, that is not our intentions. Have you seen what has been going on lately with the
Effexor? Children and young kids are killing themselves not only from the withdrawl but
some are doing it just from taking the meds. Now I don't know if you have kids, but I do
and I will do anything, I mean "ANYTHING" within my power to protect them. If my
child killed himself from taking this medicine and the company that produces the drug had
knowledge of its effects, I sure as heck am not going to stand by and take a slap on the
cheek. I assume you are trying to, for the drug companies, protect the rights to develop
new things by saying we should not sue. But like you we also are trying to protect. By
sueing we are protecting ourselves, others, and children most of all; from ever having to
suffer like this again. Do you understand what I am saying?Anyhow, I think we all need to agree to disagree and move on. We need to get back to
supporting one another through these hard times. Yes Dave, they really are hard. I
wanted to kill myself last night but couldn't because I have to much resposibilty to others
(sometimes that makes me angry). That responsibility is all that keeps me here somtimes
(especially during this withdrawl process).Kelly
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 28, 2004, at 22:20:48
In reply to Re: Effexor -tapering Q, posted by AIK on September 28, 2004, at 9:43:01
> I think ... he minimizes our physical and mental pain.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by AIK on September 29, 2004, at 7:48:03
In reply to Re: Effexor -tapering Q » Dave001, posted by Bubblehead on September 28, 2004, at 20:51:42
Good Morning Kelly,
The horrible withdrawal you're experiencing seems to have you in a whirl-wind; please call or go see someone who has the ability to pull you through this. Your family needs & wants you, this site needs & wants you, and you need to want you!
The withdrawal has brought you here to defend and protect this generation and you have my support and respect for that. If you read my post yesterday with my attempted experiment, I took the spheroids out of an Effexor capsule and put them in 30 ml of water. @ 8:45 am yesterday. 24 hours later, they're all still accounted for
and have not dissolved. I do not have the equipment available to measure how much of the venlafaxine permeated into the water and/or if any remained inside the spheroids. In order to be consistant with tapering with the appropriate dosage, one would have to count the spheroids inside the capsule, divide them up equally, and go from there. Sounds ridiculous to me. I thought possibly to crush the spheriods before adding water but that may or may not change the action from sustained release to immediate release. It reminds me of what they do on the streets. Get a hold of oxycontin, crush them, and snort it. It's just wrong. Changing a drug form for which it was intended should not be done in a kitchen, but in a controlled environment. I also agree with you that there are ding-dongs out there and the great thing is that you realize it. Our knowledge has increased significantly and you will aid in educating others. Please write back to me and let me know how you're doing this morning. AIK
> > I think it is the individual's choice whether to ask their doctor for "permission," which
> they will not receive, to reduce the dose in the manner described. A compounding
> pharmacist whom has specifically prepared custom Effexor formulations would likely
> know more about this than your doctor.>
>
>
> Sorry Dave, but I've got to disagree with ya here. I did not even ask my doctor to do this
> (mixing the stuff in water) and guess what? Yep, He told me to. Actually he told me to
> just dump out half of the capsule and take it that way. After reading what you all have
> said about this; it makes me wonder what kind of ding-dong I was going to. See Dave,
> this is what I was trying to express before. These Doctor's are not educated on the meds
> and we are the ones paying the price for thier ignorance.
>
>
> >> experimentation on my part (like I don't have enough to do). Support group, this has
> nothing to do with ingesting the drug...don't attempt it at this point. In fact, Dave did say
> earlier that it may be an alternative to tapering with capsules, but doesn't recommend it. I
> think he has raised the hair on the back of our necks when he minimizes our physical and
> mental pain. Also using asterisks when he refers to "if the withdrawal effects are *that*
> bad". Yes, it is *that* bad for these readers or they wouldn't be on this site.
>
> >Nothing I said was intended to minimize anyone's pain. I've already said that, but I guess
> it's not enough. Yes, I used asterisks when I said, "if the withdrawal effects are *that*
> bad." That just means what it says: if they are *that* bad for *you*. Some people don't
> find the withdrawal that big of a deal; others have a lot of difficulty. It varies. For someone
> not having great difficulty tapering the conventional way, it probably wouldn't be worth
> the hassle to fiddle with the capsules. That's all that was meant. The OP didn't indicate
> having a problem with tapering; IIRC, she had not yet even begun the process.<
>
>
> Oh my Dave, I think we all have seen the worst in you without even noticing the good. I
> think your post about the withdrawl and the need to sue has given you a bad reputation.
> Don't be confused, I am still in disagreement with you about this; but from reading your
> prior posts I see where you are coming from. Let me see if I have this right. You feel that
> by sueing the Drug company we are saying that there will be an end to them finding great
> cures and helps for the others that need it in the world. Is that it? If I am right, let me just
> say that, that is not our intentions. Have you seen what has been going on lately with the
> Effexor? Children and young kids are killing themselves not only from the withdrawl but
> some are doing it just from taking the meds. Now I don't know if you have kids, but I do
> and I will do anything, I mean "ANYTHING" within my power to protect them. If my
> child killed himself from taking this medicine and the company that produces the drug had
> knowledge of its effects, I sure as heck am not going to stand by and take a slap on the
> cheek. I assume you are trying to, for the drug companies, protect the rights to develop
> new things by saying we should not sue. But like you we also are trying to protect. By
> sueing we are protecting ourselves, others, and children most of all; from ever having to
> suffer like this again. Do you understand what I am saying?
>
> Anyhow, I think we all need to agree to disagree and move on. We need to get back to
> supporting one another through these hard times. Yes Dave, they really are hard. I
> wanted to kill myself last night but couldn't because I have to much resposibilty to others
> (sometimes that makes me angry). That responsibility is all that keeps me here somtimes
> (especially during this withdrawl process).
>
> Kelly
>
Posted by AIK on September 29, 2004, at 9:32:03
In reply to Re: please be civil » AIK, posted by Dr. Bob on September 28, 2004, at 22:20:48
Dear Dr. Bob,
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I will remember this in future posts.
Respectfully, AIK
> > I think ... he minimizes our physical and mental pain.
>
> Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused.
>
> If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>
> Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
Posted by Bubblehead on September 29, 2004, at 14:46:49
In reply to Re: Effexor -tapering Q, posted by AIK on September 29, 2004, at 7:48:03
Thank you AIK for being so sweet. I'm doing okay. I really shouldn't have even wrote that. I'm so embarassed. No one needs to worry about me. There are others who need more concern than I do. I just have issues with anger. Unfortunatly, through my upbringing I learned that anger is not allowed. Due to this, I have somehow learned to turn the anger in upon myself. Which leads to, yep you guessed it, suicide. I punish myself for being angry. Pretty strange huh? The Effexor helped this problem but not in the way it should have. At 450mg I was in what I like to call "The Effexor Coma." Like a coma, I could not feel things like emotions and I could not express them. I know they were in there but there was something blocking them (the Effexor). I left my Doctor and started tapering the Effexor about 3 months ago. I went very slowly and I did well...until I took my last half a capsule. That was two weeks ago tomorrow. What a nightmare. I feel for each and every person who is going through withdrawl symptoms. I've never had to experience any type of withdrawl before this. I don't know how actual drug addicts do it. I used to be so mean thoughted about addicts going through withdrawl thinking that they deserved it. Now, my heart even goes out to them. No one desrves this.
Any how, I am gradually day by day getting better. I do have a support family through my church. Thank God for them. Somedays are just a bit harder than others and I apologize for that. I really shouldn't have put that in that post. That is information that people really don't want to see or hear.
Again, thank you. You are such a sweetheart for being so concerned.
Kelly
Posted by AIK on September 29, 2004, at 16:07:37
In reply to Re: Effexor -tapering Q » AIK, posted by Bubblehead on September 29, 2004, at 14:46:49
Kelly,
Like I said before, you don't have to tow this load alone. I have been through counseling at certain stages of my life. If finances won't warrent it, there are free services listed in the front pages of most phone books. There is always someone to take your call. You don't have to give your name if you choose not to, just talk about what is going on. Since you mentioned that you have gotten support from your church (if of the Christian or Jewish faith), then you need to hold on to what the walk and talk with what God asks of you. That is not to take your own life. Life is the most precious thing that we have been given; you, me and the guy next door. We all are a part of God's plan, and if you leave us, we would all lose by you not being here. Do you know how wonderful it is to me that you answered my post? I know that some readers out there might think this sounds "hokey"; this is for you, me and the rest that are seeking survival for God's will, as we know him. If you need any help in locating a professional, ask for it, and it's yours. Dr. Bob informed me yesterday that I spoke out of line toward Dave, and I apologized for that. I sincerely hope that we don't get any negative remarks concerning the condition you are in, only support; I'm sure Dr. Bob would agree with that. I've come to realize that Dave is knowledgeable concerning medication, so I shouldn't have judged him as being a rebel toward our cause. So if he has suggestions for you how to taper your Effexor, it is worth a try (whether I agree with it or not). The important thing here is your survival during withdrawal. Do you know that during severe withdrawal symtoms, a doctor can put you on another drug to get you through it? It is dosed appropriately so you don't get hooked on it either. I don't know your age, however, could your depression or change in behavior being placed on Effexor initionally, be due to the fact of hormonal changes? Pre-or post menstral symptoms, pre-or post menapause symptoms? I know of a gal who is going into early menapause, and she hasn't even hit 30 years old! Sometimes that is overlooked by physicians and the Effexor is an alternative to getting to the root of the problem. Perhaps it's genetic. All of the above is me. It has passed on to my nieces as well. Yes, I am sweet, but also direct. I want the best for you, Kelly, that the future has to offer. I will do the best that I can to get you through this. Write me back. AIK> Thank you AIK for being so sweet. I'm doing okay. I really shouldn't have even wrote that. I'm so embarassed. No one needs to worry about me. There are others who need more concern than I do. I just have issues with anger. Unfortunatly, through my upbringing I learned that anger is not allowed. Due to this, I have somehow learned to turn the anger in upon myself. Which leads to, yep you guessed it, suicide. I punish myself for being angry. Pretty strange huh? The Effexor helped this problem but not in the way it should have. At 450mg I was in what I like to call "The Effexor Coma." Like a coma, I could not feel things like emotions and I could not express them. I know they were in there but there was something blocking them (the Effexor). I left my Doctor and started tapering the Effexor about 3 months ago. I went very slowly and I did well...until I took my last half a capsule. That was two weeks ago tomorrow. What a nightmare. I feel for each and every person who is going through withdrawl symptoms. I've never had to experience any type of withdrawl before this. I don't know how actual drug addicts do it. I used to be so mean thoughted about addicts going through withdrawl thinking that they deserved it. Now, my heart even goes out to them. No one desrves this.
> Any how, I am gradually day by day getting better. I do have a support family through my church. Thank God for them. Somedays are just a bit harder than others and I apologize for that. I really shouldn't have put that in that post. That is information that people really don't want to see or hear.
> Again, thank you. You are such a sweetheart for being so concerned.
> Kelly
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 29, 2004, at 22:37:21
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by AIK on September 29, 2004, at 9:32:03
Posted by Bubblehead on September 30, 2004, at 10:51:05
In reply to Re: Effexor -tapering Q, posted by AIK on September 29, 2004, at 16:07:37
> Like I said before, you don't have to tow this load alone. I have been through counseling at certain stages of my life.
I guess I failed to mention that I have been through various types of counseling during my life. I'm not afraid to call one when I need to. I actually still have a close enough relationship with one to have and action plan, just in case I ever think I might follow through with my thoughts. I also have mmy pastor and his wife to turn to. They are good family friends.
> Since you mentioned that you have gotten support from your church (if of the Christian or Jewish faith), then you need to hold on to what the walk and talk with what God asks of you. That is not to take your own life. Life is the most precious thing that we have been given; you, me and the guy next door. We all are a part of God's plan, and if you leave us, we would all lose by you not being here. Do you know how wonderful it is to me that you answered my post? I know that some readers out there might think this sounds "hokey"; this is for you, me and the rest that are seeking survival for God's will, as we know him.
I am Christian and do rely upon God. I just get caught up in the flesh of this world sometimes. I have suffered with depression all of my life. I do have actual chemistry related depression but a majority of it comes from circumstance. The garabage from those circumstances is in my face daily, not because I won't let go but because I still live in the town I grew up in. The depression is differnt this time though. I don't know if it is the withdrawl or if the Effexor changed my chemistry. The depression sort of reminds me of Bipolar. I am have extremely high and happy days and I am having very low and down days. You caught me on a low day with that post. On the low days, I feel like a demon has moved into my house and taken over my body and mind. I am not myself. Those are the days God carries me. I know that God is letting this so that I will move closer to him and learn from it. I'm just not there yet.
> The important thing here is your survival during withdrawal. Do you know that during severe withdrawal symtoms, a doctor can put you on another drug to get you through it?Yes, my Doc put me on Zoloft. Unfortunatly, he did not give me a ray of hope with it. Here is his point to me, "I'll put you on the Zoloft but, like the all other antidepressants you have tried, it either won't work or you'll have the exact same side affects as you had with them all. Which therefore means that you will have to go on the old time drugs and learn to deal with those side affects." Lovely huh? I am on NO antidepressants (I am scared of them now). I am taking 1200mg of fish oil a day and it has helped some. I am going to a naturalist (who is also a very close Christian friend) who will help me find the right combination eventually.
>I don't know your age, however, could your depression or change in behavior being placed on Effexor initionally, be due to the fact of hormonal changes? Pre-or post menstral symptoms, pre-or post menapause symptoms? I know of a gal who is going into early menapause, and she hasn't even hit 30 years old!
I'm 29 and was placed on the Effexor for major depressive disorder/Post tramatic along with postpartum sycosis. I tried many other Ad's that failed before the Effexor. The Effexor actually was stressing my body so much that I was going into peri-menopause.
My Mom went early so I know I will, but 29 is just crazy.
> I want the best for you, Kelly, that the future has to offer. I will do the best that I can to get you through this. Write me back. AIK
>Thank you. Your spirit is uplifting. I'm in a time of transition and I know God will see me through. He already is, he placed you in my path! Thank you. Kelly
Posted by AIK on September 30, 2004, at 14:02:23
In reply to Re: Effexor -tapering Q » AIK, posted by Bubblehead on September 30, 2004, at 10:51:05
Have you been educated about Bio-Identical Hormone Replacement for mood swings? Since my early twenties I was diagnosed as being "bi-polar". Mis-diagnosed at that. Flipping out here and there, then becoming very happy (and along with it a sex drive). Until 7 years ago. I was talking to a pharmacist about my condition. She asked me to keep track how long my depression lasted (along with the onset and end of my menstral cycle) and my happy, good-feeling times. After the second month the pattern was evident. My mood changes were consistant with my cycle. I was a tyrant for 2 weeks prior to getting my period. During my period I would start to become more rational and more tolerant of my surroundings. The day following the last day of my period, I'd get this "sex drive". Unfortunately for my husband that is the one day that it is extremely powerful. The next 2 weeks I was in my "happy mood"...then I'd ovulate, and the crap mood came back until I got my period again. Some gals get in worse moods than I and others less. All I can say is that if it wouldn't have been for that pharmacist, I'd still be living a yo-yo life. If you go on the web and type in bio-identical hormone replacement mood swings, you can some info there. The formulations they use are not the cancer causing synthetic estrogens or synthetic progestins (progesterone is the natural chemical that is in your body already). Adjustments are made at some points when my body ages. Check it out. Glad to hear you're having a better day! AIK
> > Like I said before, you don't have to tow this load alone. I have been through counseling at certain stages of my life.
>
> I guess I failed to mention that I have been through various types of counseling during my life. I'm not afraid to call one when I need to. I actually still have a close enough relationship with one to have and action plan, just in case I ever think I might follow through with my thoughts. I also have mmy pastor and his wife to turn to. They are good family friends.
>
>
>
> > Since you mentioned that you have gotten support from your church (if of the Christian or Jewish faith), then you need to hold on to what the walk and talk with what God asks of you. That is not to take your own life. Life is the most precious thing that we have been given; you, me and the guy next door. We all are a part of God's plan, and if you leave us, we would all lose by you not being here. Do you know how wonderful it is to me that you answered my post? I know that some readers out there might think this sounds "hokey"; this is for you, me and the rest that are seeking survival for God's will, as we know him.
>
> I am Christian and do rely upon God. I just get caught up in the flesh of this world sometimes. I have suffered with depression all of my life. I do have actual chemistry related depression but a majority of it comes from circumstance. The garabage from those circumstances is in my face daily, not because I won't let go but because I still live in the town I grew up in. The depression is differnt this time though. I don't know if it is the withdrawl or if the Effexor changed my chemistry. The depression sort of reminds me of Bipolar. I am have extremely high and happy days and I am having very low and down days. You caught me on a low day with that post. On the low days, I feel like a demon has moved into my house and taken over my body and mind. I am not myself. Those are the days God carries me. I know that God is letting this so that I will move closer to him and learn from it. I'm just not there yet.
>
>
> > The important thing here is your survival during withdrawal. Do you know that during severe withdrawal symtoms, a doctor can put you on another drug to get you through it?
>
> Yes, my Doc put me on Zoloft. Unfortunatly, he did not give me a ray of hope with it. Here is his point to me, "I'll put you on the Zoloft but, like the all other antidepressants you have tried, it either won't work or you'll have the exact same side affects as you had with them all. Which therefore means that you will have to go on the old time drugs and learn to deal with those side affects." Lovely huh? I am on NO antidepressants (I am scared of them now). I am taking 1200mg of fish oil a day and it has helped some. I am going to a naturalist (who is also a very close Christian friend) who will help me find the right combination eventually.
>
> >I don't know your age, however, could your depression or change in behavior being placed on Effexor initionally, be due to the fact of hormonal changes? Pre-or post menstral symptoms, pre-or post menapause symptoms? I know of a gal who is going into early menapause, and she hasn't even hit 30 years old!
>
> I'm 29 and was placed on the Effexor for major depressive disorder/Post tramatic along with postpartum sycosis. I tried many other Ad's that failed before the Effexor. The Effexor actually was stressing my body so much that I was going into peri-menopause.
> My Mom went early so I know I will, but 29 is just crazy.
>
>
> > I want the best for you, Kelly, that the future has to offer. I will do the best that I can to get you through this. Write me back. AIK
> >
>
> Thank you. Your spirit is uplifting. I'm in a time of transition and I know God will see me through. He already is, he placed you in my path! Thank you. Kelly
Posted by ants on September 30, 2004, at 14:41:42
In reply to Re: Effexor -tapering Q, posted by AIK on September 30, 2004, at 14:02:23
I have a question about the hormon-related mood swing issue. I have recently gone on effexor-i told my doc I was moody, irritable, and had frequent crying bouts and this was his solution. A female doctor who was also there asked if i had kept a journal to see if it was related to my cycle. I said no and she suggested that, but now that I am on this medication I haven't bothered to do that...
Now, my question is-is there some way to figure out if it was related to my cycle now that I am on medication? Will I still get moody and crazy even with the medication and then i will know? Or will it "mask" that problem...I don't want to go off effexor (for fear of withdrawal) just to find out I actually need it, but i also don't want to stay on it if its not what i needed...
any ideas?
Posted by AIK on September 30, 2004, at 15:45:43
In reply to Re: Effexor -tapering Q » AIK, posted by ants on September 30, 2004, at 14:41:42
Yep, I sure do. Make an appt. with your OB/GYN and have him order a hormone level test (lipids, etc). If your doctor won't work with you on this, contact a compounding pharmacy and they will lead you in the right direction finding an open-minded doctor. There is also a saliva test available that I purchased that you send back to the lab and then get the results. Your compounding pharmacist and doctor will be able to read it and if your levels are low in one or more of the hormones, they'll come up with a dosage to meet your needs. I was put on Effexor for pain associated with some of my conditions and have been tapering off this because it hasn't helped to relieve the pain. Happy to say that today I reduced down to 1/2 of 37.5 mg tablet a day and hope for a peaceful tomorrow & the next week at this low dose. Next Friday, (Oct 8th) hopefully, I will be Effexor free!!!) Good luck in your search for alternatives to Effexor. If your mood swings are not hormone related, then I would continue with the Effexor (or some other SSRI or SNRI since it helps you. AIK
> I have a question about the hormon-related mood swing issue. I have recently gone on effexor-i told my doc I was moody, irritable, and had frequent crying bouts and this was his solution. A female doctor who was also there asked if i had kept a journal to see if it was related to my cycle. I said no and she suggested that, but now that I am on this medication I haven't bothered to do that...
>
> Now, my question is-is there some way to figure out if it was related to my cycle now that I am on medication? Will I still get moody and crazy even with the medication and then i will know? Or will it "mask" that problem...I don't want to go off effexor (for fear of withdrawal) just to find out I actually need it, but i also don't want to stay on it if its not what i needed...
>
> any ideas?
Posted by CarolinaGuy on September 30, 2004, at 22:47:05
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal inevitable, posted by ants on September 23, 2004, at 11:59:00
I have tapered my effexor for the past month. I also started Wellbutrin about three weeks ago. I took my last 37.4 on Sunday, it is now Thursday. I never could have imagined that I could feel this sick. I have felt the need to vomit since Sunday night. I went through some awful physiological, pschological, and physical pain. I found this website yesterday and it has felt like the biggest blessing. Knowing that others have gone through this, that I am not going crazy. I can not thank all of you enough. My question is, how much longer of this? What can I do to feel better? Is there anything OTC or herbal or anything to make the withdrawl better? Thank you so much, I have not watched this much tv or ordered this much pizza in my life. I am ready to feel like myself again.
Posted by AIK on October 1, 2004, at 6:43:26
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal inevitable, posted by CarolinaGuy on September 30, 2004, at 22:47:05
If you didn't have the stomach upset when you began your tapering, but have it since you stopped completely...this is what I have been doing. I reduced my dosage by 1/2 a tablet every 7 days. I'm down to 1/2 tablet of a 37.5 a day (I'm at day 2 of this dosage). Last night was the first night I didn't have a 1/2 tablet, but will take it this am. I'm hoping not to have the fog and stomach upset. Your tablets are scored to break in half so you might want to do what I was doing by taking 1/2 tablet in the am and 1/2 tablet a night for 7 days, then reduce to only 1/2 tablet for 7 days. All I know is that I was sick as a dog a few days after I stopped taking the 37.5 mg tablet completely, so I went back on it so I could function. That's when it was suggested to me to taper my dose down by a half tablet every 7 days. I have not been sick to the stomach or foggy in the head doing it this way...so far anyway. The next few days will tell if my body will be OK on only the 1/2 tablet per day. I don't have my herbals book here at the moment which will also list drug interactions, since you're taking Wellbutrin. As far as OTC's, I was chewing up all kinds of anti-acids, but got no relief (I belched a lot though!) Someone will reply to how long their stomach sickness lasted when they stopped completely. I'll get back to you later with the herbal info.
> I have tapered my effexor for the past month. I also started Wellbutrin about three weeks ago. I took my last 37.4 on Sunday, it is now Thursday. I never could have imagined that I could feel this sick. I have felt the need to vomit since Sunday night. I went through some awful physiological, pschological, and physical pain. I found this website yesterday and it has felt like the biggest blessing. Knowing that others have gone through this, that I am not going crazy. I can not thank all of you enough. My question is, how much longer of this? What can I do to feel better? Is there anything OTC or herbal or anything to make the withdrawl better? Thank you so much, I have not watched this much tv or ordered this much pizza in my life. I am ready to feel like myself again.
Posted by AIK on October 1, 2004, at 8:27:02
In reply to Re: effexor withdrawal inevitable, posted by AIK on October 1, 2004, at 6:43:26
This is what I found:
Ginger root 1 g doses, repeated as necessary (no adverse interaction with Effexor or Wellbutrin, but no not take if you're on warfarin (Coumadin)).
Raspberry leaf tea 1.5 to 2.4 g/day. (no adverse interaction with Effexor or Wellbutrin but do not use if you're pregnant or lactating).
There is more on the list. Your pharmacy should be able to provide you with a printout with herbal/drug interactions.***CAUTION***DO NOT take St. John's Wort while taking any prescription or nonprescription drugs before contacting your health care professional! It alters the metabolism of many drugs***Thought I needed to pass this along since you brought up herbals. Before seeking relief on your own for your upset stomach, please call your doctor and inform him that you are suffering nausea and feel it's due to the withdrawal of the Effexor and ask about the ginger root and raspberry leaf tea. He/she may have something else to offer that will give you relief. Better Health To The Days Ahead!> If you didn't have the stomach upset when you began your tapering, but have it since you stopped completely...this is what I have been doing. I reduced my dosage by 1/2 a tablet every 7 days. I'm down to 1/2 tablet of a 37.5 a day (I'm at day 2 of this dosage). Last night was the first night I didn't have a 1/2 tablet, but will take it this am. I'm hoping not to have the fog and stomach upset. Your tablets are scored to break in half so you might want to do what I was doing by taking 1/2 tablet in the am and 1/2 tablet a night for 7 days, then reduce to only 1/2 tablet for 7 days. All I know is that I was sick as a dog a few days after I stopped taking the 37.5 mg tablet completely, so I went back on it so I could function. That's when it was suggested to me to taper my dose down by a half tablet every 7 days. I have not been sick to the stomach or foggy in the head doing it this way...so far anyway. The next few days will tell if my body will be OK on only the 1/2 tablet per day. I don't have my herbals book here at the moment which will also list drug interactions, since you're taking Wellbutrin. As far as OTC's, I was chewing up all kinds of anti-acids, but got no relief (I belched a lot though!) Someone will reply to how long their stomach sickness lasted when they stopped completely. I'll get back to you later with the herbal info.
>
> > I have tapered my effexor for the past month. I also started Wellbutrin about three weeks ago. I took my last 37.4 on Sunday, it is now Thursday. I never could have imagined that I could feel this sick. I have felt the need to vomit since Sunday night. I went through some awful physiological, pschological, and physical pain. I found this website yesterday and it has felt like the biggest blessing. Knowing that others have gone through this, that I am not going crazy. I can not thank all of you enough. My question is, how much longer of this? What can I do to feel better? Is there anything OTC or herbal or anything to make the withdrawl better? Thank you so much, I have not watched this much tv or ordered this much pizza in my life. I am ready to feel like myself again.
>
>
Posted by Jiggitykid on October 4, 2004, at 14:52:17
In reply to Re: blocked for week » Jiggitykid, posted by Dr. Bob on September 26, 2004, at 19:32:07
I apologize for the accusatory tone in the post.
> > the patronizing tone of the posts
> >
> > to imply what your original post ... did ... is insulting.
>
> Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused.
>
> I've asked you to be civil before, so now I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
>
> If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>
> Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 5, 2004, at 1:44:14
In reply to Re: blocked for week » Dr. Bob, posted by Jiggitykid on October 4, 2004, at 14:52:17
Go forward in thread:
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