Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 13781

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Re: Effexor = No sleep

Posted by BarbaraD on April 15, 2005, at 12:38:57

In reply to Effexor = No sleep, posted by heather3781 on April 15, 2005, at 10:35:16

I have also been helped alot by this site. It's comforting to have all of you out there to help me put things into perspective. I've experienced quite a few side effects from Effexor XR but, so far, nearly all have gone away with the exception of sleep disturbances and dehydration. For me, the positive effects outweigh the negative (so far). Most of my problems appear to have to do with entering menopause and perhaps the Effexor intensifies some of my physical problems. Sure has helped my mood though. I had no idea that it was such a powerful drug until I found this site. The withdrawal sounds like a nightmare. I don't plan on attempting that for a while.

 

ADD

Posted by Rhonda Jo on April 15, 2005, at 14:29:19

In reply to Re: Effexor = No sleep, posted by BarbaraD on April 15, 2005, at 12:38:57

> I have also been helped alot by this site. It's comforting to have all of you out there to help me put things into perspective. I've experienced quite a few side effects from Effexor XR but, so far, nearly all have gone away with the exception of sleep disturbances and dehydration. For me, the positive effects outweigh the negative (so far). Most of my problems appear to have to do with entering menopause and perhaps the Effexor intensifies some of my physical problems. Sure has helped my mood though. I had no idea that it was such a powerful drug until I found this site. The withdrawal sounds like a nightmare. I don't plan on attempting that for a while.

welcome to the club!!!
all of this will get better!!! take the ambien. It works! the restlessness:
1. you can walk in the afternoon, it helps
2. take a calcium suppliment, that helps with restless leggs- I have that and I take a parkinson drug for it.
3. Know that you will get better. I went throught the custody battle also and I had to finally go to 150mg. but I am on an even course now. I am going to this site for a ADD problem and have found a lot of people on a combo of Effexor EX and ritalin.
oh how the body goes as it ages, but I like getting older. I know more, and I know myself better. as my husband says.......this too shall pass, and life will continue. enjoy!!
good luck, Heather!!
RJ

 

Re: Effexor = No sleep » BarbaraD

Posted by Colleen D. on April 16, 2005, at 14:26:25

In reply to Re: Effexor = No sleep, posted by BarbaraD on April 15, 2005, at 12:38:57

I too had difficulty sleeping when I first started Effexor, but I had insomnia before taking anyway which is apparently one of my symptoms of depression and anxiety. Effexor has been wonderful for me. I switched to Cymbalta for a couple of months just to try it (also a SNRI) but Effexor does way more for me than Cymbalta. I had no problem switching over to Cymbalta either. I guess I exprected some kind of negative physical response from myself after all the horror stories I've read here, but I was fine. Perhaps you'll find the same thing when and if you discontinue it.

:-) Colleen

 

Re: Effexor = No sleep » heather3781

Posted by Jen2 on April 16, 2005, at 16:15:00

In reply to Effexor = No sleep, posted by heather3781 on April 15, 2005, at 10:35:16

Hi all,

I started Effexor last January and have had good success with it, but I've had to put up with a whole series of side effects. If you like, go back and read some of my old posts - and those of others too. Effexor seems to have some common effects on most people, but some people get really wacky effects. So it's good to know that almost anything can happen, and at almost any time throughout your treatment.

I most recently have been experiencing late menstrual periods - last month was 4 days late, and this month was 5. My pdoc says the 'big book of medications' doesn't list this as a side effect of Effexor, but she also says that it's not completely out of the question that Effexor causes it - perhaps it's just underreported.

In my experience, the side effects do come and go. So if you have something now - like sleeplessness - it will likely be relatively temporary. Although, YMMV.

Jen

 

Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR? » Priss

Posted by Jen2 on April 16, 2005, at 16:25:18

In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR? » BarbaraD, posted by Priss on April 13, 2005, at 21:40:39

Hi Priss,

I was started at 75mg Effexor and found it extremely problematic - the first 12 days I was a f*cking mess. The side effects threw me for a vicious loop.

I would definitely suggest that you take it as easy as possible and book off as much as you can for at least a week. Don't worry - you will feel better - you will feel better - YOU WILL FEEL BETTER - but it will take a little while. So just sit on the couch, go for walks if you can, take it easy. Your body is getting used to the medication, and it could take a little while.

Personally, I don't like Lorazepam because it makes me feel kind of dead inside. But I never thought of taking the two together - now that I think about it, the Lorazepam might take the edge off the side effects of the Effexor that you'll experience for that first while.

You might consider taking your Effexor at night before you go to bed. There's lots of debate about which is better, but I prefer it.

Anyway, all the best. My best advice is to just take it easy and give yourself lots of time. And be prepared to feel worse before you feel better.

Jen

 

Re: ADD » Rhonda Jo

Posted by winddancer on April 16, 2005, at 23:07:27

In reply to ADD, posted by Rhonda Jo on April 15, 2005, at 14:29:19

So where is the site for the ADD and Effexor?? My daughter (now 27) was diagnosed when in 3rd grade - at my suggestion - since she exhibited signs of the symptoms. Now my counselor thinks that I may also have this, since I'm so easily destracted and perhaps I need meds for that and not needing anti-depressents. (I just finished weaning off Effexor and glad to be rid of all the side-effects)

winddancer

 

Re: ADD » winddancer

Posted by Phillipa on April 16, 2005, at 23:12:07

In reply to Re: ADD » Rhonda Jo, posted by winddancer on April 16, 2005, at 23:07:27

Welcome back winddancer! Fondly, Phillipa

 

Re: Anyone have their biochemistry evaluated? » Jen2

Posted by winddancer on April 16, 2005, at 23:25:01

In reply to Re: Anyone had success on Effexor XR? » Priss, posted by Jen2 on April 16, 2005, at 16:25:18

I have been experiencing some other things that I now think are a result of the Effexor experience, either directly or indirectly. I am anemic, perhaps because I was taking pain pills (Aspirin, Ibuprophen, etc)to combat the headaches and body ache caused by the medicine. I was so constipated. I couldn't sleep deeply (I'm still working on having a good nights sleep, without the help of Ambian. My body is not processing calcium and absorbing it in my bones - that and hi oxalates are the ingredients for kidney stones. With the lack of sleep - everything gets out of whack!! My hormone levels are low and for some reason I am experiencing intense joint and muscle pain in every area of my body.

I'm seeing an alternative doctor - an Internist MD,who has evidence from his patients that when he thoroughly evaluates a person and corrects inbalances in their bio-chemistry that they no longer suffer from much depression and panic attacks and remain overall more healthy and for women less negative sideeffects of being post menopausal. He recommends natural only hormone replacement after analyzing what each individual needs to balance it out - from compounding pharmacies so that the dose is very individualized. It all makes good sense to me since I didn't experience my first episode of depression until I was going through menopause. Main stream MD's don't seem to go for evaluating a person's chemical make-up and hormone levels, before prescribing some pretty powerful stuff - and sometimes it would seem that they prescribe it "by the seat of their pants" depending on which pharmaceautical company courted them last and put their "spin" on the assumption that only medicine can correct a problem. Now don't get me wrong! I'm all for meds - but can't we first take a look at our "healthy or not" choices for nutrition and lifestyle before prescribing a drug that can potentially be dangerous. Of course there is not as much money kickbacks from prescribing good nutrition, personal evaluation of each individual before putting them on powerful drugs, as there is with the prescription drug companies.

winddancer

 

Re: ADD

Posted by winddancer on April 16, 2005, at 23:28:07

In reply to Re: ADD » winddancer, posted by Phillipa on April 16, 2005, at 23:12:07

Thanks, Phillipa,

I've been so busy this week getting extensive evaluations of my challenging medical irregularities that I haven't had time to post. I've been wondering how you're doing.

winddancer

 

Re: Effexor = No sleep » Colleen D.

Posted by BarbaraD on April 17, 2005, at 8:28:02

In reply to Re: Effexor = No sleep » BarbaraD, posted by Colleen D. on April 16, 2005, at 14:26:25

Thankyou Colleen for your encouraging input. I have stopped taking the sleeping med Temazepan. Made me too groggy when I woke up. Figured the dose was mild enough to discontinue without experiencing withdrawals. I feel better without it and will just be patient. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I'll sleep better someday when menopause is over. In the meantime, I'll just take a nap when I can during the day. I'll have to work on not allowing the weird dreams to carry over into the daylight hours. One more thing... I find that I have an increasing inability to tolerate the sun/heat. I did a little yardwork yesterday and woke up with a nasty headache this morning which is typical for me. Have you noticed that your dehydration has decreased over time as well?

 

Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain

Posted by Keemo on April 17, 2005, at 15:25:35

In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » Janie, posted by Lynn V on March 17, 2001, at 22:51:46

> Leo and All
> > I am now into my 3-4 week of weaning off the Effexor XR,
>
> I am very interested in feedback on joint pain, mentioned above. I have been on aspirin for many years for arthritis. The joint pain became worse while I was taking Effexor, and I have recently been placed on Celebrex to control my arthritis. Have others experienced complications involving the joints? I did not make the connection until reading this post.
>
>
> My daughter (18yo)had been on 300mg for 2 years. I am weaning her off slowly and she is now down to 150mg. She has muscle and joint pain. It is so bad she has to sleep on 3 layers of feather mattress covers. She never had this AT ALL until Effexor XR. Since she has been weaning down it is starting to get a little better. She can not do very much. She had to take her GED and she can't work. She recently has started aquatherapy to get some strength back. I TOTALLY blame Effexor XR for ruining my daugters life. We thought is was so wonderful in the beginning to. Then her health deteriorated. I made the connection only by accident. The thought of suing has crossed my mind.
>
> Weaning so far is ok I guess. Lots of stomach problems. She is having to take Compazine for severe nausea. I have to force her to eat most of the time. She has lost 35 lbs. in 6 weeks.
>

I am on day 6 of my weaning process. The Dr. cut my 150mg dose of Effexor XR down to 75mg Mentally I feel OK but physically is another story. I have been lightheaded, I have pressure in my sinuses that feels like my nose is going to bleed, headaches, and since yesterday I have excruciating lower back pain. I can barely stand up when it's at it's worst. I have been taking 2 extra-strengh Robaxacet to take the edge off. I have a family and a house to take care of.

I thought I was all in my head until I read some of these posts. I knew I had not injured my back and couldn't understand why I was in so much pain. How can something that is supposed to help you cause so much agony when you want to stop it? And why do the Dr's tell you that it is not addicting when your body goes through hell trying to purge it? Even doing it slowly hurts. I just don't get it.

I will not give up though, I will keep on weaning until this poison is out of my body. I am not saying to not try it if you need to, because it did work for me but if I knew how hard it would be to come off of I would have thought twice.

I'm so thankful for this site and the people who share here, now I know it's not just my imagination, this is really happening to my body. And I can't wait for it to be over. Has anyone succesfully, endured this to the end? And how long did it take? Please reply.

"aching for an answer"

 

Re: Anyone have their biochemistry evaluated? » winddancer

Posted by Jen2 on April 17, 2005, at 19:50:37

In reply to Re: Anyone have their biochemistry evaluated? » Jen2, posted by winddancer on April 16, 2005, at 23:25:01

Winddancer,

I would love to see someone like your Internist. I believe strongly that western medicine does more harm than good, and that more holistic approaches like the one you've found make much more sense, both physically, emotionally, and spiritually.

Are you in Canada? Where does one find an Internist such as you describe?

Jen

 

Sweating and/or heat intolerance is a common SE... » BarbaraD

Posted by Colleen D. on April 17, 2005, at 20:59:06

In reply to Re: Effexor = No sleep » Colleen D., posted by BarbaraD on April 17, 2005, at 8:28:02

and I continue to be dehydrated if I'm not strict about drinking as much water as possible during the day. I take stool softener as well as needed and my sinuses are drier than normal. My doc gave me Nasonex to help and I have used an OTC moisturizing nasal spray to keep my nose comfy. I am perimenopausal so the hottness probably has something to do with hormones as well. Good luck!

Colleen

 

Re: Sweating and/or heat intolerance is a common SE... » Colleen D.

Posted by Corafree on April 17, 2005, at 21:28:39

In reply to Sweating and/or heat intolerance is a common SE... » BarbaraD, posted by Colleen D. on April 17, 2005, at 20:59:06

Since discontinuing Eff-XR (month or two now ?), have lots of hot-flash type sweats. It could be a coincidence, since am 53, but onset was @ exact same time of discontinuing the Eff-XR. I just don't know for sure. I am seeing a GYN soon so will bring it up. I've had HRT in the form of patches since TAH-BSO in 1992. I wasn't and am still not sure if my body has or will go through 'another', 'but we think you have organs' menopause. cf

 

Re: 4 Weeks off Effexor - joint pain » Janie

Posted by winddancer on April 17, 2005, at 22:20:20

In reply to Re: 4 Weeks off Effexor » Leo, posted by Janie on March 15, 2001, at 11:11:08

I am glad that someone else mentioned joint pain. I too have been experiencing excruciating joint pain. Also all over muscle pain - If any of you have been taking aspirin or other NSAID's for the pain and are fatigued - you might want to have your dr. do a check for anemia - I did and my iron level is very low - I'm having a colonoscopy this week to see if my gut is bleeding from anything else now that I stopped the aspirin. It didn't take long to get anemic - some of the problem may be not eating as healthy a diet as I should since I feel so lousy with all the pain that I don't spend much time preparing meals; and living alone, no one else around to cook and feed me.

I also had my hormones checked since 4 months ago I stopped the Primpro HRT I had taken for about 9 years. So in addition to being anemic, my hormone levels are very low, so I'm now getting iron/B12 shots and taking DHEA which is a precursor for hormones. My doctors, both main-stream and alternative are hoping to figure out if my body/joint/muscle ache can be from anemia and/or low hormone levels. The pdr and my MD just don't seem to want to consider that any of this can be the result of taking the Effexor - but I'm hoping to educate them. They seem unwilling to believe anything I'm experiencing can be due to the drug, since the pharmaceutical co. didn't list it as a side-effect. Yikes!! this is scary.

Also someone mentioned using calcium to help with the restless legs - but you might want to have your calcium/oxalate levels checked in blood and urine. I have learned that I have high Ca and Ox - the precurser to kidney stones -so I certainly don't need to be adding more calcium to my diet.

I mentioned in another post about finding a dr. who studies and analyzes people's biochemistry processes in order to individualize what medications and supplements are optimum. Every person doesn't need the same supplements. This dr. is quite impressive but is not covered as a preferred provider and the procedures he uses are not main-stream enough to have insurance pay much of it so it's all out-of-pocket. I'll just have to see what I think I can afford.

winddancer

 

Re: Anyone have their biochemistry evaluated? » Jen2

Posted by winddancer on April 17, 2005, at 22:37:19

In reply to Re: Anyone have their biochemistry evaluated? » winddancer, posted by Jen2 on April 17, 2005, at 19:50:37

I'm in the Puget Sound area in the U.S. Here is the URL for the clinic and the doctor in Federal Way:

www.paracelsusclinic.com

http://www.dormanpub.com/index.htm

In addition to the all-over joint and muscle pain I have lots of low back pain which all my doctors and therapists beleive to be due to sacroiliac joint misallignment and some consequential deterioration of discs in my lower spine and mid-spine. This doctor is only one of 4-5 in the country who performs a special kind of treatment for this sacrum pain - using injections into the ligaments around the SI joint. This is not cheap and it is not usually covered by insurance so I'm not sure I will be able to afford to do it. I'm going to wait until I'm completely weaned off Effexor for a few months and wait until my anemia is alliviated and my hormones are balanced out, and then see how much pain endures.

So - if this dr is too far away for you, I'm sure his clinic would share with you the name of someone else closer to you who follows this line of evaluation and healing. Good luck. Where in Canada are you located??

winddancer

 

Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain

Posted by Keemo on April 18, 2005, at 12:35:00

In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain, posted by Keemo on April 17, 2005, at 15:25:35

Well, day 7 and still have headaches,excruciating lower back pain and I'm tired as all get out.

I noticed that some of you wrote about "hot flashes and sweats" I started getting the hot flashes, night sweats and a weird red blotches all over my neck and chest, about a year after starting Effexor XR. And I was 35 then. I had my hormones checked thinking I was starting early menopause (which runs in my family) but my hormones were fine.

So I think the flashes etc. are another side affect of the drug. I still get them periodically but not as often anymore. The red blotchy deal is a nuisance I could do without though.

 

Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » Keemo

Posted by Colleen D. on April 18, 2005, at 13:13:55

In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain, posted by Keemo on April 17, 2005, at 15:25:35

I find this discussion very interesting about joint pain being a side effect of taking and/or discontinuing Effexor. Effexor is actually often prescribed for people with chronic joint pain as in fibromyalgia. I have chronic joint pain and that is one of the reasons my doc decided on prescribing Effexor for me. It has done miracles for my joint pain. At one time I saw a chiropractor weekly to get some relief from it, but once I began taking Effexor I no longer needed that kind of treatment.

Colleen

 

Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » Colleen D.

Posted by winddancer on April 18, 2005, at 15:02:04

In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » Keemo, posted by Colleen D. on April 18, 2005, at 13:13:55

Clearly this drug can cause a lot of odd symptoms - I have never had such joint pain as I have now. It's hard to be sure just what causes what. My pdoc seemed to dismiss my joint pain being related since she said that Effexor is sometimes used for pain control as is Neurontin which I was taking for awhile but it's just too odd that I didn't have this total body joint and muscle pain prior to the Effexor. I too am seeing a chiropractor for my low back pain; and a physical therapist; and I had an MRI and will be seeing an orthopedic spine specialist for his view of the situation; so far everyone seems to agree that my low back pain is a clear case of sacroiliac joint misalignment and some disintegration of some spinal discs in that area as a result. I also stopped HRT about 5 months ago and my hormones are low; so it will be interesting to see when I get my hormones balanced out and am completely off the Effexor for a couple months, if I still suffer from the same pains. If the pain goes away - I don't think I'll be too interested in taking Effexor again to check it out. Somehow I believe that my being on Effexor, xanax, Neurontin, Clonapin, etc had either an indirect or direct connection to all the pain I'm suffering from.

It's too bad that there's not enough money in it to do double blind studies with natural remedies, like nutrition support, but the only way big research studies get done is if the potential result is that an expensive drug can be marketed to absorb the cost.

It really is interesting that Effexor gets rid of pain for some and causes pain for others. Clearly it is a tricky drug to anticipate results for different individuals. I'd be interested to see more details about how the drug was evaluated - on the other hand I don't really want to spend that much time reading.

winddancer

 

Re: Anyone have their biochemistry evaluated? » winddancer

Posted by Elroy on April 18, 2005, at 16:51:16

In reply to Re: Anyone have their biochemistry evaluated? » Jen2, posted by winddancer on April 16, 2005, at 23:25:01

Excellent posting.

I too have wondered about this.

Why prescribe powerful SSRI medications - which create the artifical effect of increasing serotonin levels - when an individual's problem might be a lack of dopamine and NOT serotonin.. or maybe it's a lack of GABA neurotransmitters (especially if it is an anxiety problem instead of a depression problem)???

Just over the last couple of days I was reading through the following links (which was why I still happened to have them handy)...

http://www.neuroreplete.com/default.htm
http://www.neuroreplete.com/bal.htm

Also:

http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/dep5-1.htm

I would also check out the book on brain neurotransmitters by a Dr. Eric Braverman (I can't recall the actual title right now).

Have you checked out the alternatives board?

I would search for postings by a Larry Hoover. He seems to be an amazing source of information.

I wish you good results with your alternative doctor.
Would like to find someone like him (or Dr. Braverman) who practices in the NE Ohio area!

X
X
X
X


> I have been experiencing some other things that I now think are a result of the Effexor experience, either directly or indirectly. I am anemic, perhaps because I was taking pain pills (Aspirin, Ibuprophen, etc)to combat the headaches and body ache caused by the medicine. I was so constipated. I couldn't sleep deeply (I'm still working on having a good nights sleep, without the help of Ambian. My body is not processing calcium and absorbing it in my bones - that and hi oxalates are the ingredients for kidney stones. With the lack of sleep - everything gets out of whack!! My hormone levels are low and for some reason I am experiencing intense joint and muscle pain in every area of my body.
>
> I'm seeing an alternative doctor - an Internist MD,who has evidence from his patients that when he thoroughly evaluates a person and corrects inbalances in their bio-chemistry that they no longer suffer from much depression and panic attacks and remain overall more healthy and for women less negative sideeffects of being post menopausal. He recommends natural only hormone replacement after analyzing what each individual needs to balance it out - from compounding pharmacies so that the dose is very individualized. It all makes good sense to me since I didn't experience my first episode of depression until I was going through menopause. Main stream MD's don't seem to go for evaluating a person's chemical make-up and hormone levels, before prescribing some pretty powerful stuff - and sometimes it would seem that they prescribe it "by the seat of their pants" depending on which pharmaceautical company courted them last and put their "spin" on the assumption that only medicine can correct a problem. Now don't get me wrong! I'm all for meds - but can't we first take a look at our "healthy or not" choices for nutrition and lifestyle before prescribing a drug that can potentially be dangerous. Of course there is not as much money kickbacks from prescribing good nutrition, personal evaluation of each individual before putting them on powerful drugs, as there is with the prescription drug companies.
>
> winddancer
>
>

 

Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » winddancer

Posted by Corafree on April 18, 2005, at 21:26:19

In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » Colleen D., posted by winddancer on April 18, 2005, at 15:02:04

Hi Windancer. Sorry you are having joint pain. I take Voltaren 2x a day and Flexeril 3x a day. They have helped tremendously. Also, I drink a lot of water.

I'm looking into a natural HRT. Am planning to call a large nutrition store in my city where my PCP says there is a woman that is very knowledgeable about all the different varieties out there. There are sooo many, and I just wonder if you may know of any particular brands w/ the herbs and vites, well some just have the herbs, and some just the vites, and some are all alone, like a bottle of black cohosh. I need to find one where these are meshed together in one tab! I hate having a million alternative med bottles sitting in my kitchen, but more importantly, maybe would be a better way to get right amounts of ingredients. So, have you, or anyone heard of any in particular. I've just read a little book and it is 'plugging' Estro-Logic. Tks cf

 

Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » Corafree

Posted by Phillipa on April 18, 2005, at 21:51:43

In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » winddancer, posted by Corafree on April 18, 2005, at 21:26:19

Corafree, My OBGYN had a formulary drug store mix up a cream that was in a syringe when I was going through menopause. Insurance wouldn't cover it but it's the completely natural hormones. You can apply it once a day or twice a day. You just rub it in. i stopped this summer as I had used them for about 3 yrs, and the doctor and pharmacist said that was long enough. Fondly, Phillipa

 

Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » Keemo

Posted by Corafree on April 19, 2005, at 22:50:04

In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain, posted by Keemo on April 18, 2005, at 12:35:00

This is so NOT weird. I posted about the hot flashes type sweating! I also have a red blotchy area on my leg. Been off Eff-XR at least month to month and a half. I'm having my hormones checked too! Oh dear; well thinking was correct decision, discontinuing it. best wishes cf

 

Re: Anyone have their biochemistry evaluated?

Posted by Corafree on April 19, 2005, at 22:56:31

In reply to Re: Anyone have their biochemistry evaluated? » winddancer, posted by Elroy on April 18, 2005, at 16:51:16

Winddancer - I am on mainstream HRT. I use Vivelle patches. Saw my PCP yesterday and showed him the alternatives black cohosh, clover, etc. etc. and he said he couldn't name one, but thought would be good direction. Can you name one? Would certainly be appreciated. I cannot afford to go to a naturopath. Instead, I find myself standing in front of a HRT counter with 50 different blends and names. Any help would really HELP. TKS cf

 

Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » Phillipa

Posted by Corafree on April 19, 2005, at 23:02:58

In reply to Re: 4 Wks off Effexor-/joint pain » Corafree, posted by Phillipa on April 18, 2005, at 21:51:43

My OB used to have a place that mixed up 'patient particular' recipes too, but they were mixing varying amounts of estrogen, progesterone, testosterone, estradiol.

Maybe that same pharmacy mixes a natural blend like you have suggested.

I will ask him; but affording it may be a horse of a different color!

Thanks! cf


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