![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 29 to 53 of 100. Go back in thread:
Posted by Quintal on February 21, 2007, at 17:45:07
In reply to Re: opiates for depression, posted by linkadge on February 21, 2007, at 16:02:22
>I don't think it is fair at all for somebody to say that anyone using opiates for depression is merely chasing a high.
I agree. I'm not sure to whom this post was directed, if anyone in particular, but I'll respond anyway........
>It is just like how drugs for ADHD are not treating ADHD *by* causing euphoria. Euphoria is simply a side effect. The theraputic effect is not due to dopamine release in the neucleus accumbens, but rather dopamine release in the frontal cortex.
I think it's hard to tell link, since there are no drugs that specifically release dopamine only in the frontal cortex (that I'm aware of) that could prove it conclusively. The performance of treatments for ADHD that operate selectively via the noradrenergic system, like Strattera seem less impressive than those that (perhaps incidentally) increase dopamine release in the nucleus accumbens. I think to some significant extent the increased efficiency and tolerability of amphetamines used to treat ADHD is due to increased desire and greater capacity to feel reward caused by release of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens, as well as increasing attention span and organisation etc, by releasing dopamine in the frontal cortex. I say this because again, drugs that increase attention span alone and cause little if any euphoria, like Strattera seem to be less effective (and less well tolerated) overall.
I really think a drug that's subjectively more pleasant in its effects will have more treatment responders, because more people will be willing to persevere for the full length of the trial even if the actual benefits aren't that good.
>Similarly, I think it is possable that opiates do something in addition to their abuse poetneial. There is a link, for instance between depression and pain. Opiates affect the activity of substance P for instance. Substance P inhibitors are being investigated as a means to treat depression without euphoria.
I'm sure you know opiates affect many chemicals in the brain link, most of the usual mood-altering culprits dopamine and serotonin for example, as well as any action on substance P. We already have a whole gamut of antidepressants that supposedly treat depression without causing euphoria. They seem to be less effective overall than those that do cause euphoria, especially for treatment resistant depressives, and that is what most of this debate has been about.
That reminds me, didn't the legendary Elizabeth of Buprenorphine disappear off babble radar right after announcing she was considering being a participant in a clinical trial for a substance P blocker? I wonder if she ever did attend? Ominous.
Q
Posted by pearlcat on February 21, 2007, at 20:40:39
In reply to Re: opiates for depression » pearlcat, posted by Larry Hoover on February 21, 2007, at 15:36:01
Sometimes I think it is all a plot by the Government! Maybe if they did not hang over docs heads about controlled drugs some of us could get better out there instead of going through years of hell to find out what works. I agree that you do build a tolerance to opiates. However because it can make you feel normal and then help you sleep soundly , maybe that is why people abuse them. Not to get high just to feel happy and motivated. At least that is what is does to me. But, instead you get crap like EFFEXOR and you gain weight, and have a terrible time coming off of it. Maybe to alleviate some of the withdrawel of effexor they should prescribe opiates!!!
Posted by pearlcat on February 21, 2007, at 20:48:19
In reply to Re: opiates for depression, posted by linkadge on February 21, 2007, at 16:02:22
Thank you!!! It IS NOT about chasing a high. Its about getting through life and enjoying it with this illness or illnesses. And if it were to work than why not try it, research it more instead of slamming it and assuming that those of us that it helps are drug addicts.
Posted by linkadge on February 21, 2007, at 20:58:11
In reply to Re: opiates for depression, posted by Quintal on February 21, 2007, at 17:45:07
>I think it's hard to tell link, since there are >no drugs that specifically release dopamine only >in the frontal cortex (that I'm aware of) that >could prove it conclusively.
Caffiene is an example of a stimulant drug which increases dopamine release much more in the frontal cortex than in the neucleus accumbens. While caffine is not patentable, it is probably the number one choice for ADHD for a number of undiagnosed.
But, my point was that there are plenty of drugs that are eupohriants (ie NAA dopamine release) wich are not effective for ADHD. So, the effect of ritalin is not simply due to euphoria.
Just like, for a while people thought the mood effects of amphetamines were inseperable from the weight loss properties. Amphetamine derivitives like fenfluramine however seem to proove this assumption wrong.
>The performance of treatments for ADHD that >operate selectively via the noradrenergic >system, like Strattera seem less impressive than >those that (perhaps incidentally) increase >dopamine release in the nucleus accumbens.
Thats probably because straterra doesn't increase frontal cortex dopamine as much as it does frontal cortex noradrenaline. This drug doesn't make a lot of sense for ADHD since a number of studies indicate noradrenaline is hyperactive compared to dopamine in ADHD. (but thats beside the point)
>I think to some significant extent the increased >efficiency and tolerability of amphetamines used >to treat ADHD is due to increased desire and >greater capacity to feel reward caused by >release of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens, as >well as increasing attention span and >organisation etc, by releasing dopamine in the >frontal cortex. I say this because again, drugs >that increase attention span alone and cause >little if any euphoria, like Strattera seem to >be less effective (and less well tolerated) >overall.
Well, I'd like to comment. For starters we only really have Straterra, which as I mentioned above doesn't really increase frontal cortex dopamine so I wouldn't even use it as a comparitor. Certain supplements like omega-3 have utility in ADHD. The 0-3 fatty acids increase frontal cortex dopamine, but do not directly activate the reward systems. So, I'd say we need more drugs in order to fully know for sure.
Another argument that I would make is that many people who are trying drugs like strattera have already been primed to the reward of ritalin. As such, they are unlikely to find other drugs as effective.
Only time, and more test drugs will fully determine whether activating the reward systms is actually necessary for ADHD drug effect. One would also need to ascertain wheather the reward system in ADHD is actually dysfunctional, because we do know that long term stimulant treatment can make the reward systems dysfunctional.
Another consideration is that ADHD drugs can continue to work, long after the subjective high has subsided.
Kids who take ritalin for years, are unlikely to be getting any buzz from it, but it still helps their attention.
>I really think a drug that's subjectively more >pleasant in its effects will have more treatment >responders, because more people will be willing >to persevere for the full length of the trial >even if the actual benefits aren't that good.That is certainly true.
>We already have a whole gamut of antidepressants >that supposedly treat depression without causing >euphoria. They seem to be less effective overall >than those that do cause euphoria, especially >for treatment resistant depressives, and that is >what most of this debate has been about.I agree. But, all I am saying is that with some of these drugs, even the ones that cause euphoria, there may still be undetermined mechanisms of theraputic action that could be unrelated to euphoric properties. The neucleus accumens quickly adapts to chemical alterations, so I would argue that if a long term theraputic response is attained, then there is likely something else going on.
Linkadge
Posted by flmm on February 21, 2007, at 21:11:37
In reply to Re: opiates for depression, posted by pearlcat on February 21, 2007, at 20:48:19
Declan,Quintal, you are both in total denial! Yes, something that gets you high can be considered an antidepressant. That is not how ssri meds work. That's probably why a lot of people don't like them. The dreaded "poop out" everyone speaks about here, is merely the leveling out of the medication. You guys think the high should last forever!
Good luck and party on dudes...........
Posted by Quintal on February 21, 2007, at 21:43:07
In reply to Re: opiates for depression, posted by flmm on February 21, 2007, at 21:11:37
>Declan,Quintal, you are both in total denial!
You think we're in denial of what exactly?
>The dreaded "poop out" everyone speaks about here, is merely the leveling out of the medication.
'Poop out' as I understand it is the return of the original symptoms. It is not the levelling out of antidepressant response though some will no doubt claim it is. Yes, the MDMA-like high I got off 20mg escitalopram did fade out over a few weeks.
> You guys think the high should last forever!
????!!!! What have I said to make you think that?
Q
Posted by FredPotter on February 21, 2007, at 22:10:02
In reply to Re: opiates for depression » flmm, posted by Quintal on February 21, 2007, at 21:43:07
yes and the high I got from Paxil lasted one afternoon then it was straight back to the old symptoms. "In denial" sounds a bit AA-like to me
Fred
Posted by kelv on February 21, 2007, at 23:35:07
In reply to Re: opiates for depression » Quintal, posted by FredPotter on February 21, 2007, at 22:10:02
Opiates were commonly used for mood/psych disorders until~1950.
It's fact that some people ONLY get relief from their psychic torment with Opi's, this is a very controversial area to be sure, Opi's are medically restricted to pain relief most hardenly.
It makes sense that Sero/Dopa/Norp are not the only players in mood disorders. Pain, whether from a broken leg or MDD is registered in the same brain area.
Not everyone treated with Opi's seeks an ever increasing dose, Jerrypharmstudent who used to visit here often was scripted 5mgs Hydro 4x daily and maintained it for several years, with little loss of effectiveness-apparently.
I wonder why Oxycontin (Hillybilly Heroin) is public enemy no1 amoung script meds in the US?
Posted by flmm on February 21, 2007, at 23:54:09
In reply to Re: opiates for depression, posted by kelv on February 21, 2007, at 23:35:07
Never been to AA! Never b een addicted to anything! Maybe opiates were used for depression in the 50s! People used to smoke cigarettes in the doctor office in the 50s also! So what..........
Posted by kelv on February 22, 2007, at 0:26:34
In reply to Re: opiates for depression, posted by flmm on February 21, 2007, at 23:54:09
> Never been to AA! Never b een addicted to anything! Maybe opiates were used for depression in the 50s! People used to smoke cigarettes in the doctor office in the 50s also! So what..........
"So what"
Well Mr "Thats not how SSRI's work" i was simply explaining that the early 1900's were a dope fiends paradice, with Morphine, Laudanum, Cocaine available OTC in substantial doses, and were scripted to patients with affective disorders up till ~the 50's.
Listen dude, not everyone who has run the gamut of meds and Doc merry go round typical AD reguime seeking relief from their everyday psychic pain is 'chasing a high'-actually this expression often refers to smoking Heroin of foil,
I have taken:
-Codeine~300-400mgs
-DHC~240mgs
-MSIR~60-80mgs
-MSSR~100mgs
and found they sure did a number on a depressed mood, althought i didn't take them long enought to experience tolerance.
Posted by yxibow on February 22, 2007, at 1:23:47
In reply to Re: opiates for depression, posted by kelv on February 21, 2007, at 23:35:07
> Opiates were commonly used for mood/psych disorders until~1950.
>
> It's fact that some people ONLY get relief from their psychic torment with Opi's, this is a very controversial area to be sure, Opi's are medically restricted to pain relief most hardenly.
>
> It makes sense that Sero/Dopa/Norp are not the only players in mood disorders. Pain, whether from a broken leg or MDD is registered in the same brain area.
>
> Not everyone treated with Opi's seeks an ever increasing dose, Jerrypharmstudent who used to visit here often was scripted 5mgs Hydro 4x daily and maintained it for several years, with little loss of effectiveness-apparently.
>
> I wonder why Oxycontin (Hillybilly Heroin) is public enemy no1 amoung script meds in the US?
Its because its abused the most in the US to the point where most pharmacies lock up anything that isnt C-IV or so or lesser, because there have been bold and brazen holdups of pharmacies caught on tape many times.
Yes, we can blame the media cycle and all that, but the fact is, people know its available, its manufactured in fair quantities because its good for modest to fairly strong pain and if you can't treat an illness the do no wrong credo among progressive doctors is to treat pain.
And the number one way to treat pain in people who don't respond to OTC ibuprofen (People would fall asleep at the 800mg I take for pain, I guess I'm a fast metabolizer of most of what I take) or esoteric prescription NSAIDs that most people haven't even heard of like mefenamic acid and ketoprofen other wierd things that aren't prescribed much any more, is opiates.
They're restricted to pain because doctors who have advocated for it and even have had small trials of it for mood disorders recently, have had their medical license yanked or put on probation. And if your psychiatrist doesn't have a license, you're sh*t out of luck to put it bluntly.
Yes, we can all blame the DEA and the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 and the Misuse of Drugs Act in Great Britain in 1971, but the fact is for better or worse, things like oxycontin compete with meth for street drugs in the US. Xanax and Valium pale in comparison.
Should we convince the NIMH and other government agencies to have trials of things like bupenorphine for depression -- I don't see why not. A good majority of drug trials in the US don't necessarily start in big pharma -- they start in state sponsored places, universities, government health agencies, and when molecules are tested in small trials and proven effective, they're sold to drug companies. The drug companies further contract out to smaller pharmaceutical agencies to further pursue trials of medications, through phase trials and the like. I know its a royal pain to wait for the next big thing. I want the next big thing because I want my life back after it was inexplicably robbed five years ago. But some of that has to come from within.Have doctors petition the FDA to run small trials -- I know I'm sounding silly and pedantic but maybe it will work. Doctors really do want to hold on to their license and what they put on a prescription goes to a pharmacy. In fact an unnamed pharmacy who I am familiar with and like the pharmacist had a conversation with my doctor just to see what the diagnosis since I am on polypharmacy. Things go noticed by good pharmacists that prescriptions are being given for valid reasons. No worries there, but what if the pharmacist questioned your doctor about an opiate? Ultimately there are rules about having to report things, and I don't know what they are but they exist. You don't want to lose your doctor. That's all I can say.
-- tidings
Posted by TheMeanReds on February 22, 2007, at 13:13:31
In reply to opiates for depression, posted by pearlcat on February 19, 2007, at 13:52:09
Its informative, sarcastic, and just plain horrible sometimes. Its great.
Posted by liliths on February 22, 2007, at 16:11:29
In reply to opiates for depression, posted by pearlcat on February 19, 2007, at 13:52:09
sigh... I initially wanted nothing to do with this thread as it is such a volatile subject but some of what I read really upset me. I've been the target of that thinking and I must tell you, it sucks
everybody IS different. YES WE ARE. and everybody responds differently to meds... WE ALL KNOW THAT
so why is everybody so damned polarized about this? Just because a person has a bad experience with a med, that means it's bad for all?? Come on here... nothing's that simple
I was on a therapeutic dose of hydrocodone for approx. 5 years - I didn't become addicted - if that means needing more. If I took more, I didn't get the AD effect, I got 'high' and that WASN'T what I wanted from the drug. The dose I took energized me, helped me focus and made me LESS DEPRESSED, not stoned
when I went off it, I tapered down just like I would any AD, and with little side effects other than feeling more depressed. No black death. Just my same old horrible, crushing depression.
that said, because our society is so against it and people are so freaked out about "addiction", (and I won't even get into "that" word here) because I was on pain meds for depression, I was denied a license by the state to practice as a massage therapist, unless I was willing to be monitored like a drug addict for 5 years. And that was despite being deemed "safe and stable" by an outside psychiatrist. All they had to do was say the word "narcotic" and the board went berserk.
the bugaboo is simply ridiculous. There's a ton of evidence pointing to the efficacy of opiods as ADs for some people.
soooo... if you don't have to deal with a bureaucracy for licensing or take drug tests for your job, then I wish you luck in finding a pdoc who will help you.
and please, I am not requesting follow-ups to this post. I am not getting into arguments with people over their opinions.
I wish you all well.. I wish you all peace
let's just try and treat our individuality with a modicum of respect for a change
I apologize in advance if anyone finds this post offensive. It wasn't meant to be. Reading some of the responses here obviously pushed by buttons. I sold my house to go back to school, graduated with a 3.95 GPA and scored "high" on my national boards, but because I was taking a pain medication for my depression, all of it means sh*t now.
am I pissed off because of the old-fashioned, fear-based reactions I've endured? YOU BETCHA
so to answer your original question:
> Has anyone experienced that opiates seemed to help with depression,anxiety and add?the answer is: YES, YES, and YES
namaste,
lilith> Has anyone experienced that opiates seemed to help with depression,anxiety and add? I know it sounds crazy but it is true . I feel more motivated on these . I guess that is why they are addictive. Yet you cannot get them easily. But you can get crap like lamictal and effexor that can really screw you up! Too bad you cant get them on the internet!
Posted by TheMeanReds on February 22, 2007, at 17:02:29
In reply to opiates for depression, posted by pearlcat on February 19, 2007, at 13:52:09
(J.Wozniak)
Long long ago, In China I'm told
To England was traded some teaAnd so sealed the fate
In pieces of eight
All England and all of the world
Yeah...poppiesWhen soon his majesty
sent soldiers and thieves
To India Searching for gold
Instead from the ground
Some magic they found
Something far better I'm told
Yeah...poppies
Yeah...poppiesAnd now this story told
from days of our own
When gossamer doggies ran ran
They'd patiently wait
With pieces of eight
So everybody could smile one more time
Yeah...poppies
Yeah...poppies-Complete histories of Hong Kong and this period can be found
at nearly every local library, or on the internet.
Posted by Declan on February 22, 2007, at 17:51:40
In reply to Re: opiates for depression » Quintal, posted by FredPotter on February 21, 2007, at 22:10:02
Can tough love be far behind?
Posted by Declan on February 22, 2007, at 18:38:42
In reply to Re: opiates for depression, posted by kelv on February 21, 2007, at 23:35:07
I had a long term opiate addiction and stopped.
I also use an AD, even though it may not be quite a real one (bit suss, these psychotonics).Any treatment that comes anywhere near euphoria (suffering we can take for granted) will stir up feelings, but it isn't neccessary to have an emotional investment in the subject.
Posted by Phillipa on February 22, 2007, at 19:39:32
In reply to Re: opiates for depression, posted by flmm on February 21, 2007, at 21:11:37
flmm I broke my arm and was given percocet for pain. I only took one at night for the pain. But my husband noticed right away that I was laughing during the day and haven't in years. If I could get a scrip for percocet I'd take l nightly and feel good during the day. Was never high. I hate that feeling just want to relax and be me which I was when taking. Love Phillipa
Posted by Quintal on February 22, 2007, at 20:15:34
In reply to Re: opiates for depression, posted by linkadge on February 21, 2007, at 20:58:11
>Caffiene is an example of a stimulant drug which increases dopamine release much more in the frontal cortex than in the neucleus accumbens. While caffine is not patentable, it is probably the number one choice for ADHD for a number of undiagnosed.
Caffeine seems to mostly increase alertness and still isn't as effective as amphetamines though and it is less well tolerated at doses needed to have the desired effects; most people with ADHD seem to prefer amphetamines. Caffeine doesn't seem to be an impressive treatment for ADHD in spiders(!): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Caffeinated_spiderwebs.jpg
>Thats probably because straterra doesn't increase frontal cortex dopamine as much as it does frontal cortex noradrenaline. This drug doesn't make a lot of sense for ADHD since a number of studies indicate noradrenaline is hyperactive compared to dopamine in ADHD. (but thats beside the point)
That is the point I'm getting at link. This drug does make sense in theory because there have also been a number of studies that indicate a deficit in the nordrenergic systems of people with ADHD. Just as with dopamine, according to my textbook, there has been a noradrenaline deficit hypothesis in ADHD (it seems) whenever it has been convenient to market a new drug that operates via that mechanism.
>For starters we only really have Straterra, which as I mentioned above doesn't really increase frontal cortex dopamine so I wouldn't even use it as a comparitor.
That's the whole point I'm getting at link; you can increase attention span with drugs that act on neurotransmitters other than dopamine, yet they don't seem to be as good for treating the overall problem.
>Another consideration is that ADHD drugs can continue to work, long after the subjective high has subsided. Kids who take ritalin for years, are unlikely to be getting any buzz from it, but it still helps their attention.
You can say the same thing about benzos and point to people who have been taking them for decades and feel they are helping their anxiety long after the initial sedation and euphoria have faded. That might be true for some, but as studies suggest (in benzos for example), most are receiving little real benefit from the drugs at that point (hard though it is for them to believe). They have little more than placebo brought on by conditioning. I think a lot depends on the rate at which each person develops tolerance. For some it's rapid and the anxiety slaps them in the face and they have no choice but to admit the drug is no longer working. For others I suspect it's more insidious, creeping up over the years so gradually that they have time to adjust and develop coping mechanisms. In effect they've gradually withdrawn from the drug in the therapeutic sense, in that it is doing little to help the original problem, yet they are still dependent on it, but mostly to maintain equilibrium.
>Another argument that I would make is that many people who are trying drugs like strattera have already been primed to the reward of ritalin. As such, they are unlikely to find other drugs as effective.
Why would such drugs be any less effective for ADHD if the reward systems played no part in the therapeutic response? I seem to have put myself in the position of defending the 'ADHD drugs get you high' camp, which wasn't the intention I began with. I posted those comments about amphetamines because here in the UK you would certainly not be prescribed a stimulant for depression because tolerance to those effects develop quickly and they are notorious for precipitating particularly severe depressions on withdrawal. For those reasons amphetimes are considered inappropriate for treating depression here, and I'm inclined to agree. It seems unwise to give such drugs to people already prone to depression and mood swings for the risk of exacerbating the problem in the long run, whatever the temporary gain.
I was hoping to add some perspective on flmm's comments about opiates by highlighting the fact that some people here have been prescribed amphetamines for this purpose and no such objections are raised to this as they are with opiates. I've also noticed some people with chronic depression deciding that because they have poor concentration and trouble organising themselves they must have ADHD, and therefore need stims to treat this newly discovered co-morbid disorder. That seems a little dubious to me, hence my comments.
Q
Posted by FredPotter on February 22, 2007, at 21:29:28
In reply to Re: opiates for depression, posted by Quintal on February 22, 2007, at 20:15:34
Quintal thanks for your observations on benzos. I was very reluctant to admit that the Xanax I'd been taking for years (and benzos in general for 42 years) wasn't working anymore. But not so long ago I surprised myself by saying to the Dr that "I believe they work, that's the point". My general anxiety isn't abated but as I haven't had a panic attack for years I believe it's because Xanax makes them impossible. But maybe I've just grown out panic attacks.
The truth can never hurt you, they say. Perhaps it can if you're undermining a robust placebo response
Fred
Posted by flmm on February 22, 2007, at 21:43:41
In reply to Re: opiates for depression » flmm, posted by kelv on February 22, 2007, at 0:26:34
Hey Kelv, that's quite an impressive list! I won't bother showing you mine. Needless to say, I have a little experience myself. Funny how niave you are, despite your impressive resume.......
Posted by Quintal on February 22, 2007, at 21:44:07
In reply to Re: opiates for depression » Quintal, posted by FredPotter on February 22, 2007, at 21:29:28
Thank you Fred. I don't want to spark another heated benzo debate, or go down that particular path right now. I was using the example of benzo tolerance because it's the one I'm most familiar with, but that might not apply to amphetamines. I don't know, but it might. I think it's possible.
Q
Posted by mattye on February 23, 2007, at 0:40:08
In reply to opiates for depression, posted by pearlcat on February 19, 2007, at 13:52:09
Yeah nothing works better than opiates! LOL! But that is exactly the problem. As a seasoned opiate abuser, I can say from experience that using potent opiates for depression is just wishful thinking. I don't know about bupe... but take any opiate for awhile and you will have withdrawls and depression.
I have developed a permanant tolerance to opiates. Even when I haven't done any opiates in months, it still takes about 10 percocets on an empty stomach to get me high. I barely feel hydrocodone anymore (that's Vicodin).
Seriously, though, don't take opiates unless you absolutely have to. They are addictive - especially for depressed people. I have a lifelong addiction to these drugs that I have only been abstain from for a few years at a time. They always come back to haunt me, especially when I relapse on my depression / anxiety. I have been clean from heroin for a long time, but I don't think I will ever be able to kick the pills. They do come in handy if I am in a deep black depression. Rips me right out but dumps me right back when the high wears off.
> Has anyone experienced that opiates seemed to help with depression,anxiety and add? I know it sounds crazy but it is true . I feel more motivated on these . I guess that is why they are addictive. Yet you cannot get them easily. But you can get crap like lamictal and effexor that can really screw you up! Too bad you cant get them on the internet!
Posted by yxibow on February 23, 2007, at 0:47:44
In reply to Re: opiates for depression » flmm, posted by Phillipa on February 22, 2007, at 19:39:32
> flmm I broke my arm and was given percocet for pain. I only took one at night for the pain. But my husband noticed right away that I was laughing during the day and haven't in years. If I could get a scrip for percocet I'd take l nightly and feel good during the day. Was never high. I hate that feeling just want to relax and be me which I was when taking. Love Phillipa
If you want to relax and be you, I'd suggest an occasional use of Kava. And no dime store version, one that actually lists kavalactone quantities on it because these things vary wildly. Yes, there are liver questions about it but if you use it like once or twice a week, its nothing more than Xanax but somewhat different. Don't take it with alcohol.
Posted by Declan on February 23, 2007, at 1:47:33
In reply to Re: I'm an addict, posted by mattye on February 23, 2007, at 0:40:08
Declan
Themeanreds
Quintalbut not Mattye.
Is that right?
Posted by Declan on February 23, 2007, at 1:55:51
In reply to Who is in denial?, posted by Declan on February 23, 2007, at 1:47:33
What about pearlcat? He sounded like he was in denial.
What about you Fred? Do you think you're in denial?
I take it as read that flmm is not.
How about Yxie?
What about you, PJ?
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