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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Glydin 3.9 on January 8, 2009, at 20:16:34
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » SLS, posted by ricker on January 8, 2009, at 18:30:33
Maybe better inflammatory fighters are what's needed. I don't know that killing (or not killing) a pathogen with "bug juice" is necessarily going to equal the going away of inflammatory changes.
I get a little, ah, antsy when I think of antibx and where their widespread use has led. I guess I've seen too much methcil resistant, vanc resistant, everything resistant super bugs and the complicated recoveries (sometimes, non-recoveries) arising from antibx overuses. Also, yeast balls in the heart on echocardigrams are none too attractive either.
Sign me,
Too close to the dark side of antibx use
and
Just another take.....
Posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 2:05:32
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by Glydin 3.9 on January 8, 2009, at 20:16:34
Not sure which cytokines it inhibits, but it seems in general there are easie rways to reduce inflammation. What about this drug is unique?
-d/r
Posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 8:27:24
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 2:05:32
> Not sure which cytokines it inhibits, but it seems in general there are easie rways to reduce inflammation. What about this drug is unique?
>
> -d/rDoxycycline inhibits cytokine production in the brain, even if it weren't to kill a single bug. It just happens to have antibiotic properties as well. One drug - two unconnected, yet synergistic properties. This is not a property shared by other types of antibiotics.
Tetracycline resistance already exists. I doubt that treating a few depressives would make things much worse. It sucks to have to give up global altruism for one's own health, but...
Producing an anti-inflammatory effect with more specific drugs would be nice. This is where the neurokinin receptor antagonists might come in.
- Scott
Posted by Jimmyboy on January 9, 2009, at 15:19:08
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 8:27:24
great post, the link between chronic inflammation and many many cases of depression is an open and closed argument in my book. Taking things that attenuate inflammation and lower inflammatory cytokines has been a god send and changed my life where as all AD'd did was make it suck worse.
And yeah, anti-biotic resistance is already here and the majority of those bacteria that have mutated have been the rampant use of anti-biotics used on livestock. A large majority of anti-biotics used in the US go to them and not people. The effect of the comparitively small amount of people using it for mental health purposes would be negligible.
Posted by West on January 9, 2009, at 16:49:35
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 8:27:24
Scott I would be concerned about long term effects on good bacteria in the gut and yes resistance is quite likely.
Posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 17:34:10
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 8:27:24
What makes you think the antibiotic aspect is improtant though? Does this affect some specific cytokine that you think is important?
-d/r
Posted by Sigismund on January 9, 2009, at 18:42:24
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 17:34:10
These black tea flavins are in my arthritis mixture, but I have drunk black tea like mad for years and I don't know what good it has done.
Posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 18:45:12
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by West on January 9, 2009, at 16:49:35
> Scott I would be concerned about long term effects on good bacteria in the gut and yes resistance is quite likely.
Good points. I don't know what the symptoms of disturbed intestinal flora are. During the 6 months of taking doxycycline, I don't recall having any problems.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on January 9, 2009, at 20:24:01
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 18:45:12
Even with infections resistance has built to antibiotics. Ear infections in kids no longer respond all the time to first line antibiotics. MRSA is rampant both in hospitals where it much more complex with flesh eating bacteria as vancomyacin no longer works. Personally have seen a lady have to have whole left leg amputated as she was unresponsive to vancomyacin. Docs are suggesting no antibiotics for some infections. Goodle MRSA as it is in the community and takes a long time to heal. It's suggested takeing probiotics with antibiotics to help keep healthy intestinal flora. We have good bugs in the intestine that protect us. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on January 9, 2009, at 20:38:54
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by Phillipa on January 9, 2009, at 20:24:01
Just one article of many Phillipa
Posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 20:50:22
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by Sigismund on January 9, 2009, at 18:42:24
> These black tea flavins are in my arthritis mixture, but I have drunk black tea like mad for years and I don't know what good it has done.
>
> http://search.lef.org/cgi-src-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0&page_id=57&query=inflammatory%20cytokines&hiword=CYTOKINE%20CYTOKINEBASED%20CYTOKINESIS%20INFLAMMATION%20INFLAMMATIONS%20INFLAMMATORIES%20cytokines%20inflammatoryyes exactly there are many ways to decrease inflammation.
-d/r
Posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 21:55:53
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 20:50:22
> yes exactly there are many ways to decrease inflammation.
I'm sure there are.
The thing with doxycycline is that it seems to work in clinical settings. Unfortunately, the many other substances mentioned along this thread have not been tested to the best of my knowledge.
Brain inflammation as a characteristic of Alzheimers Dementia:
Doxycycline is effective in reducing inflammation by inhibiting matrix metalloproteinases:
A trial of doxycycline in Alzheimers Disease:
Taken together, these abstracts suggest that doxycycline reduces brain inflammation via a mechanism unrelated to its antibiotic effects, and that this drug is effective in treating Alzheimers Disease behavioral and mood aberations, presumably by reducing brain inflammation.I am sure that not all anti-inflammatories are built alike. I would be cautious in wanting to declare all anti-inflammatory substances of equal value in treating the various neuropsychiatric illnesses.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2009, at 0:20:21
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 21:55:53
Seriously is there a reason you're concerned with Alzheimer's? They do have new meds requip and others for Alzheimers. I think no sure there is also a test for Alzheimer's gene or something like that. I'd think periodic MRI's of brain would at least show normal aging of brain. Love Phillipa
Posted by desolationrower on January 10, 2009, at 1:34:23
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 21:55:53
> > yes exactly there are many ways to decrease inflammation.
>
> I'm sure there are.
>
> The thing with doxycycline is that it seems to work in clinical settings. Unfortunately, the many other substances mentioned along this thread have not been tested to the best of my knowledge.
>
> Brain inflammation as a characteristic of Alzheimers Dementia:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18673008?ordinalpos=19&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
>
>
> Doxycycline is effective in reducing inflammation by inhibiting matrix metalloproteinases:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19088876?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
>
>
> A trial of doxycycline in Alzheimers Disease:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14962152?ordinalpos=11&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
>
>
> Taken together, these abstracts suggest that doxycycline reduces brain inflammation via a mechanism unrelated to its antibiotic effects, and that this drug is effective in treating Alzheimers Disease behavioral and mood aberations, presumably by reducing brain inflammation.
>
> I am sure that not all anti-inflammatories are built alike. I would be cautious in wanting to declare all anti-inflammatory substances of equal value in treating the various neuropsychiatric illnesses.
>
>
> - ScottYes, there is a multitude of inflammatory cytokines, but this thread is hardly littered with links to studies showing this particular drug is an effective antidepressant. I can't tell if you are arguing that it would be one, because it is antinflammatory, or that the reason it is effective is the antiinflamatory action. Either way i don't see much evidence.
-d/r
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2009, at 3:32:22
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by desolationrower on January 10, 2009, at 1:34:23
> Yes, there is a multitude of inflammatory cytokines, but this thread is hardly littered with links to studies showing this particular drug is an effective antidepressant.
> Either way i don't see much evidence.
For new ideas and anecdotal observations, there is often very little scientific study to yield the kind of evidence you are looking for.
I cannot personally attest to the efficacy of doxycycline. It did not produce a therapeutic effect for me. Nor can I point to another person as an example.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2009, at 3:42:32
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » SLS, posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2009, at 0:20:21
> Seriously is there a reason you're concerned with Alzheimer's?
Always. I tend to be attracted to the phenomenology of CNS disorders.
Here, I use Alzheimers as an example of a brain disorder for which inflammation has been observed, and the efficacy of doxycyline documented. Furthermore, the symptoms that were reduced included depression and behavioral aberations.
> They do have new meds requip and others for Alzheimers.
Hmm. I didn't know Requip was therapeutic in Alzheimers.
> I think no sure there is also a test for Alzheimer's gene or something like that.
Depression, too. Linkage studies point the finger at a number of different chromosomes.
> I'd think periodic MRI's of brain would at least show normal aging of brain.
You lost me on this one.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by raisinb on January 10, 2009, at 13:10:25
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
Very,very interesting. Wouldn't it be wonderful if that worked for a substantial subset of depressed patients?
Not so good for those of us prone to yeast infections, however ;)
Posted by bulldog2 on January 10, 2009, at 13:18:53
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
> Hi.
>
>
> It might sound weird at first, but some of us might be candidates for doxycycline therapy. My guess is that the brain is in a state of chronic inflammation. These people are full of cytokines, which produce inflammation. This inflammation is aggravated each time one suffers a systemic infection, as bacteria induce the production of cytokines by the immune system. Doxycycline does more than just kill little critters, which in itself could be an enormous help. It also acts as an anti-inflammatory in the brain by inhibiting cytokine production. The idea is to prevent infections and reduce cytokine-induced inflammation of the brain. People who are treated with doxycycline for depression must remain on it for quite awhile before results are seen - sometimes six months. If it works, you just stay on it indefinitely. Doxycycline is generally benign with regard to side effects. Of course, if you are allergic to the tetracyclines, you must put this idea aside. Signs of subsyndromal infection and/or inflammation include a chronic increase in the number of white blood cells (WBC), particularly monocytes. One could go for a cytokine immunoassay, but I do not believe it is worth the expense. The bottom line is that this stuff is for real, and one cannot be sure if targeting brain inflammation will help until it is tried. One interesting observation by my doctor is that some people will actually feel worse at first. He believes this is actually a good sign. My guess is that the accumulation of dead bacteria and their lysing provides an increase in the proteins that stimulate phagocyte production. The process of phagocytosis stimulates the secretion of cytokines by these active phagocytes. I really don't know for sure.
>
> If you are interested to research this yourself, you can find supportive literature for all of these pieces of this puzzle. However, you are going to have to put the pieces together for yourself. I haven't yet found any one article that would produce an explanation as I have here.
>
> I tried doxycycline for 6 months. Nothing good - nothing bad. Systemic infections do not make my depression worses. However, if you do experience a worsening of depression associated with an infection, you might want to look further into doxycycline treatment. Doxycycline is preferred over monocycline. I think doxycycline inhibits more potently the secretion of cytokines.
>
> I almost forgot to mention: Some of the drugs in the antidepressant pipeline are neurokinin (NK1 and NK2) receptor antagonists (blockers). Neurokinin is a subtype of cytokine. This is an elegant way to prevent brain inflammation. Even if cytokine levels are elevated, its target receptor never sees it and thus does not respond with an inflammation reaction.
>
>
> - ScottAlso there is a theory that arthritis is caused by infection and that antibiotic treatment may work better than many of the current painkillers being used.
Posted by Sissy35 on January 10, 2009, at 15:31:11
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
I understand your premise but do you think this would work on someone who has MS with so many brain lesions the MRI looks like swiss cheese?
Plus our brains and spinal cords are more or less inflamed in one area most of the time. If so it would seem to me this would be a breakthrough treatment. You should go into research if so.Thanks MR S
sissy 35
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2009, at 15:48:37
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » SLS, posted by Sissy35 on January 10, 2009, at 15:31:11
> I understand your premise but do you think this would work on someone who has MS with so many brain lesions the MRI looks like swiss cheese?
> Plus our brains and spinal cords are more or less inflamed in one area most of the time. If so it would seem to me this would be a breakthrough treatment. You should go into research if so.About all I knew about MS is that it was an autoimmune disease that attacked Schwann cells and demyelinated nerve fibers.
Since you asked...
Combination therapy with interferon beta-1a and doxycycline in multiple sclerosis: an open-label trial.
Hee hee.
- Scott
Posted by Sissy35 on January 10, 2009, at 15:58:29
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » Sissy35, posted by SLS on January 10, 2009, at 15:48:37
Allergic to interferon beta but will check it out anyway. I can't take any of the MS drugs anymore. IMO they don't work anyway. I would rather rely on LDN, more luck than with other drugs.
bye mr s
sissy35
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2009, at 16:08:45
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » SLS, posted by Sissy35 on January 10, 2009, at 15:58:29
Wait for the neurokinin-1 antagonists that are being developed for depression. They might help MS as well.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2009, at 18:57:34
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » SLS, posted by Sissy35 on January 10, 2009, at 15:58:29
Sissy write with a girl from another country on LDN funny you mention as invited to join a group for LDN I could find the link if you like? She takes it for sjornes another autoimmune disease. Wonder if it helps with all the autoimmune diseases? Love Phillipa
Posted by psychobot5000 on January 10, 2009, at 23:41:09
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
Let me approach this from a slightly different angle. I know a patient, mid twenties I guess, who like many of us here has severe depression. The two outstanding areas of his health (as far as i know) are this depression and...severe allergies to a vast assortment of things: cats, pollen, you name it. And he says his mood gets worse on 'bad allergen days.'
Well, don't allergies cause inflammation in various areas of the body--granted, focused on the lungs, nose or wherever peripheral contact is made, but I'm pretty sure I've read that allergens tend to penetrate deep within the body as well. Mightn't some allergens get to the brain, and cause inflammation there? Might not the two outstanding aspects of this case (to an observer), i.e. the depression and his body's tendency to overreact to a wide variety of microscopic foreign bodies, be related? Well, in any case, I'm throwing the thought out there to see if it's useful at all. Severe Environmental allergies>>nervous system inflammation>>caused or exacerbated depression.
I suppose that allergy shots might be a theoretical way of trying to treat such a patient's depression...(based on the doxycycline hypothesis)... since they also suppress the inflammatory reaction.
Just a thought.
Posted by Sissy35 on January 11, 2009, at 0:03:58
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by psychobot5000 on January 10, 2009, at 23:41:09
Actually the way alergies work is the body sees it as a toxic agent so the body builds up antibodies against these agents, and they float all through the blood stream, including the brain. When the toxic agent (say peanuts) enters the body it goes into all out attack mode.
Allergies can and do cause depression and you are correct allergy shots do help. I do't see how antibiotics could help, but have been wrong before(but I'm Not} unlike Scott who was only wrong once.
Sissy35
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