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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Susan47 on August 1, 2004, at 10:12:12
In reply to Re: everyones advice, posted by Jadah on July 31, 2004, at 18:10:25
I hope I haven't been unsupportive. In actual fact, and you may have guessed this, part of me envies the experiences you're having, even as another part of me goes "omigod what torture". If my therapist weren't married I would've really wanted to have an affair with him. I mean, I wanted to anyways, although knowing he was unavailable as a real partner in life, is what stopped me .. and the unwillingness to be part of that kind of deceit .. I couldn't help imagining what it must be like for the wife to be betrayed. THAT's NOT A JUDGEMENT ON YOU. Please understand that, Jadah. It's just how I think about my own situation, my ex-therapist (remember he fired me) etc.
I'm learning to withdraw from my ex-T and it's been easier than I expected. Him letting me go, I think, had everything to do (in my own situation) with being able to separate reality from fantasy.
I think about you frequently; partly envious, partly anxious. Please don't stop coming here. Your experience is teaching everyone something, and I do care about you, even though this is cyberspace. I know if I met you we would have big hugs. For ((((Jadah)))
Susan
Posted by Jadah on August 3, 2004, at 16:06:07
In reply to Re: everyones advice, posted by kindgirl on July 31, 2004, at 21:37:36
your name suits you. You do seem very kind and whole hearted. Thank you for the lack of judgement and support. Actually, today I am feeling very scared and insecure. I have, due to circumstances, missed my last two appointments with my T, I think the lack of contact has rendered me scared like a small child about to lose their favorite blanket. I did run in and get a hug from him, i left right after. My gut is wrenching, I just feel that he will end this soon. Last week I would have completely counterdicted this, I felt that he was becoming much more comfotrable with the whole affair. He helped take care of me when I was sick...did things for me that made it feel that we were in a "real" relationship. I was soooo happy that he took care of me and was there. I dont know what I am going to do when this ends. I cant see myself without him, literally. I dont know if I could handle that. We are talking about the ULTIMATE REJECTION, and I dont handle that well regardless. I am scared. Usually he comes over on Wednesdays (as well as other days), thats tomorrow. We'll see. I always get mad when he has other priorities, I feel like, "well arent I important too?" Family will always come first, I know. I lay in bed on the lonely nights and long for him. He sprayed my "security blanket" with Armani so I could smell him when he is not there. It hurts. So does the guilt knowing that I am, or potentially could be a "home wrecker". Im just full of mixed feelings today. IM IN LOVE WITH A MAN I CANT HAVE.....the story of my life..... Thanks for listening. How are you doing????
Jadah
Posted by Jadah on August 3, 2004, at 16:17:47
In reply to Hi Jadah, posted by Susan47 on August 1, 2004, at 10:12:12
Thank you for all of your support. I hope I am in some way helping you. HOLD ONTO YOUR FANTASIES, remember thogh that that is exactly what it is, which means no one can take that away from you and like i said, fantasies are always better than the real thing. Dont ever cross the line or try to see how far you could get (manipulate) your T, the pain and umbrella of emotions is more than a handful, a handfull Im sure was already over flowing or you wouldnt have gone to therapy in the first place. Today I am feeling really insecure, afraied he will leave me. I couldnt handle that. I had missed our last two appointments b/c I was sick, he did however take care of me... got my prescriptions, held me, fed me... it was as if we were in a "real" relationship. It always turns out the same though, he goes home to his wife. OUCH! I lie on my bed with my "security blanket" that he sprayed with Armani so that I could smell him even when he's not there. It hurts to long for something that you know has limitations. I AM IN LOVE WITH A MAN I CANT HAVE. I know the hurt is coming. I have a feeling he will try to control this relationship soon. Im scared, I know this cant go on forever, and I dont like feeling like I do not have control. I would do it over again, but I hate never knowing when..... I couldnt bare to live without him. Im really sensitive and insecure today. Can you tell??? How are you doing????
Jadah
Posted by starlight on August 3, 2004, at 16:21:51
In reply to Re: Susan, posted by Jadah on August 3, 2004, at 16:17:47
Hi Jadah,
Hang in there. Have you looked into finding another therapist? It's so hard when you're in love. You have all of my compassion and good thoughts.
starlight
Posted by pinkeye on August 3, 2004, at 16:51:49
In reply to Re: kindgirl, posted by Jadah on August 3, 2004, at 16:06:07
You need to get out of this. It is really dangerous for yourself to be in this situation, for your own good. Atleast, try finding anohter therapist and have a preliminary session. Your T will take control of this situation sooner or later, and you will be devastated when it happens. So prepare yourself first.
Posted by Susan47 on August 3, 2004, at 18:39:45
In reply to Re: Susan, posted by Jadah on August 3, 2004, at 16:17:47
Quickly I'll answer your question about how I'm doing. I'm angry at my ex-therapist for refusing to see me anymore.
I feel good about it at one level, because I did ask him to do that. On another, I'm angry because of all the times he let me down in the past and I ignored them all. Now this. I know that doesn't make much sense standing alone, but I'm counting on my week's history on the board to try and explain myself here.
Jadah, I was lucky because even in my fantasies, there was an end-point where my therapist would let me down. Such as going home to the wife, the person I suspect causes him grief; but also, his security in life.
I always knew that no matter what kind of man he was sexually, in the end it was his security that would matter; he has a long history with his family and no one who cared for him, could deny him that. Which made me realize, of course, that there were limits to how much *I* would be willing to sacrifice. And which suddenly made the whole thing impossible. Wow. I've never admitted that to myself before now.
I don't believe my therapist was a bad man, not at all. I think he *is* committed to the idea of his marriage, and I think he tries very hard, at times, to remind himself of this. And quite honestly, that's the very thing I love him and respect him for the most; so to jeopardize that love by trying to bring the man down from his pedestal *at the same time* I was gratifying one of my deadliest emotional needs (don't ask me why I say that, no clue), was self-defeating. Somehow I was lucky enough to recognize some part of me that was telling me that all along. If my ex-therapist were to read this, he might laugh at me, and I believe it wouldn't be the first time, but it is truth. (As I see it at this moment!!)
Jadah, you seem like such a sensitive, intelligent woman. I believe that you'll come through this whole, with a new understanding of how to help others.I believe (and please take note, I've been wrong before!!) that this somehow was your choice; even as it was his responsibility to deny both of you.
I hope you can feel my support. (((Jadah)))
Posted by Susan47 on August 3, 2004, at 18:45:46
In reply to Re: Susan, posted by Susan47 on August 3, 2004, at 18:39:45
Posted by Susan47 on August 3, 2004, at 19:19:40
In reply to Which responsibility wasn't lived up to (nm) » Susan47, posted by Susan47 on August 3, 2004, at 18:45:46
Omigawd I just realized....
I was the "other woman" before, with..ohmiugod. But I don't think it was ever played out.
Posted by Susan47 on August 3, 2004, at 19:23:39
In reply to May trigger, posted by Susan47 on August 3, 2004, at 19:19:40
Therapist was my dad, reconstructed into a man who would never let anything come between himself and his wife. Least of all his daughter. Sorry everybody. That's me. Go tit.
Posted by Jadah on August 3, 2004, at 19:25:31
In reply to Re: Susan, posted by starlight on August 3, 2004, at 16:21:51
hi, yes, I have a T in mind if I need to change. Im scared of that though. I dont know if I could ever trust anyone like my T, nor do I think anyone could meet my emotional needs like he does. My concerns: I dont want my T to feel betrayed that I am trying to replace him, I am afraid of strong transference with another T whom would reject me and between the rejection and the longing I dont know if I could get passed that to do good work. My T knows literally everything about me. I dont want to go thrrough that process again of having to repeat all of those painful things, of learning to trust and cry again, of feeling safe with this person, of knowing that they'll be there even outside of the appointments when i need them, feeling judged..... My T goes out of his way to meet my emotional needs when I am doing poorly. He worries about me and takes me seriously, he doesnt question what i am capable of doing and he therefore is there whenever I need him, even if it just means a late night phone call to calm me down, or a quick hug. Sex aside, he is the best goddamn therapist on the face of my planet and believe me, over the years Ive been to many and no one has ever helped me and succeeded in my growth like he has. We have worked together 5yrs. now and he hasnt failed me yet.I dont know. Even the sexual part of it is theraputic, and we never mix business with pleasure, in fact there has been times when ive tried and he has said "no, thats not why Im here" (if i was upset). For now, one day at a time. Believe me though, when this comes crashing down, I WILL definately need everyones support and a shoulder to cry on. I will always love him. I am so grateful that I have found this place, and all of you. It was no accident. Take care of yourself.Talk to you soon.
Jadah
Posted by kindgirl on August 3, 2004, at 21:00:20
In reply to Re:starlight, posted by Jadah on August 3, 2004, at 19:25:31
I worry about you Jadah. I just see this as a no win situation for you and that makes me sad. It is easy for an outsider to say "just end it" but it didn't "just start" so ending it is going to be tricky, and you are right, there is always the chance that he says one day, "I can't do this anymore," and you WILL be heartbroken. I am glad you are preparing yourself for that.
The thing that makes me so sad is the fact that you said he IS a good therapist and you have built this trust over the years, and you are right, starting over with someone new will be a lot of work, and you probably don't or won't have the energy for that. Perhaps you could look for someone who specializes in this area (are there such people?)...someone that has been a therapist for many years...
I don't think there is any way you CAN'T or WON'T feel like you are betraying him in some way. It is just going to feel that way because you interpret going to another therapist as a secret lover as well or something.
I don't know about you, Jadah, but one thing I am discovering for the first time in my life is to fight for me. For myself. Though I still struggle big time with self esteem, my therapist tells me every time I come that it is "good self care" and I am taking care of the wounded parts of me in taking her to therapy. I would ask you to think about how you can best take care of you. You are the main focus...not how he will react or how he will feel...this is why we go to therapy!!!! That is what makes your situation so sticky. You are in therapy to learn past history and I think you said that you have a past of abuse by men...and here is a man you trust and you are worried about him...always worried about him. What about you? Isn't Jadah worth taking care of? You are worth it, Jadah.
I back you 100 percent in whatever you do...just the little kid/wounded parts of me want you to be careful and look out for yourself. I don't want you getting devastated in all of this. It is good to keep coming here and venting, asking...just keep coming and keep writing. Even if something happens and you don't think you can go on...please let us know. You have a place where you belong here. No matter what.
Hugs,
KG
Posted by JenStar on August 4, 2004, at 1:54:51
In reply to Re:starlight, posted by Jadah on August 3, 2004, at 19:25:31
Jadah -
You said "we have worked together 5yrs. now and he hasnt failed me yet"
When I read your post, sadly, all I see *is* failure on his part: Failure to treat you with proper respect, failure to treat his wife & family with respect, failure to honor the oaths and legalities by which he is supposedly bound, and failure to encourage real growth in you.
If you were reading a case study about a beautiful, talented, empathetic woman who was in your situation with a therapist...what would you think? Would you think that this woman had made the best decision for herself and her future and her happiness? After 5 years of this, would you truly consider that this woman had made the right emotional and spiritual progress? Wouldn't you want this woman to find a man who could commit fully to her and make her a never-ending part of his life?
You deserve better. I hope you make a choice that brings the 'better' people in life to you.
JenStar
JenStar
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 4, 2004, at 7:13:53
In reply to Re:starlight, posted by Jadah on August 3, 2004, at 19:25:31
You mentioned that you are afraid that, if you went to a new therapist, you would become enmeshed in strong transference feelings once again, and wouldn't be able to "get past" them so as to do good work. In my experience, the strong feelings themselves are the "gold coin" of therapy. You would want to work *with* them, rather than consider them obstacles. You have mentioned other, natural feelings that you have: not wanting to betray your T. by moving to another, not wanting to give up the relationship itself, which has been very powerful and fulfiling for you in many ways.
But think what lies ahead. The relationship is going to end, even though it is very hard for either of you to do that. Here's one possible scenario: YOU end it, letting him know that it's the hardest thing you've ever done, that you found fulfilment and grew sexually, and as a person, during it. You could say that, as wonderful as it has been in so many ways, you want to grow into a healthy woman who will have her own fulfilling relationship in her own life, outside of therapy. If you wait for him to end it, you will feel awful, and may not be able to maintain the gains you have made in therapy so far. I think you will feel victimized and then thrown aside.
It was his professional responsibility to have never let this happen, but to have helped you grow through verbal-only interactions about your intense feelings for him. Hard as it will be, wouldn't it be better for your own well-being and health to be the one who finds the strength to end it? You have a lot of support available to you- another therapist, all of us here at Babble, TELL (the web organization I mentioned, which is reportedly tremendously supportive). No-one here wants to see you get rejected and abandonned, but, if you don't do something yourself, I am afraid that is what will happen. Why not bite the bullet and put an end to it yourself? I feel very confident that you'll be glad you did in the long run. We are all here for you, thinking of you, not at all judgemental, and we can empathize fully; many of us have said that, if our therapists did not maintain appropriate boundaries, we would have done what you did. I feel pretty sure I would have, when my feelings were running at their highest.
Posted by starlight on August 4, 2004, at 14:11:16
In reply to Re:starlight, posted by Jadah on August 3, 2004, at 19:25:31
Jadah,
You can see someone else without telling your current Pdoc. And you can discuss these issues without revealing his name. I think if you're expecting that it will come crashing down at some point, you should be prepared by having some sort of support mechanism and by feeling good about yourself and your choices. I think that feeling good about your choices is paramount. The decision to engage in this relationship was made by both of you, so I believe, despite what others say, that you can turn this into a positive healing experience. But you also have got to work on feeling confident that you can emerge from this (if it changes) a stronger, more experienced, more compassionate and understanding human being. You must be non judgemental towards yourself and him, so that you can avoid any guilt feelings that may arise. This is paramount.Believe in yourself and your ability to emerge victorious and be agressive in seeking some support, be it a good friend, a therapist - someone. Just in case.
I was a severe bulimic during my late teens and early twenties. We're talking severe - basically at times, going from place to place, eating and vomiting. It was pretty uncontrollable and I didn't think I'd ever be free from the compulsion to do that. It was so bad that I would usually head for the nearest all you can eat restaurant right after leaving my therapy session.
Then I embarked on a self improvement journey. I started taking classes at my community college and making straight A's, I started painting and studying classical voice. I started working out and in general feeling stronger and better about who I was as a person. Then one night, I had a dream, where my ex fiance walked into the bathroom and caught me vomiting and he looked at me and said "starlight, you've really got to stop this." And the next morning I woke up and the urge to do it was gone. Gone!!! And it's been gone ever since. But I firmly believe that the reason I was able to break through was because I felt better about myself as a person.
So, feel strong in who you are without him, try to eliminate your dependency on him. I know it will be hard, but it will help you in the long run.
starlight
Posted by pinkeye on August 5, 2004, at 13:43:43
In reply to Re:starlight, posted by Jadah on August 3, 2004, at 19:25:31
Hi Jadah,
Something else occurred to me. Actually your relationship with your current T has definitely helped you. You have said that yourself. So far so good. Let us not try to judge him. As far as you are concerned, it has helped you immensely and that is all that matters for us.
So where do we go from here? Now you are left feeling very insecure in the relationship. I don't know if you can muster enough courage and srength to call this relationship off. And I suspect that you don't have enough courage to go to another therapist now, since you think it will offend your current T and might end the relationship prematurely.So, why don't you instead focus of building a better self esteem now? You can continue your relationship with your T for now. And side by side, build a better healthy relationship with yourself. If you can't get another T, work on it yourself. Do something positive for yourself, like diverting your mind to other areas where you will feel good about yourself. Slowly slowly, you will have more courage to either end the relationshp or atleast escape without being completely devastated when the relationship ends.
Also it looks as if our T's are the only ones who will understand us, nurture us and loves us. But it is not so. If you look around, you will find plenty of men who are as good, as honest and as caring as your T. Life is a mirror that reflects our own assumptions about ourselves. If you become a self reliant person, you will definitely attract more men who are willing to be with you. I read a message yesterday, which said, Don't try to get good men, instead be a person where good men come to you.
And remember, you deserve someone who is fully committed to you, who can share his life fully with you. Who will be there by your side through your ups and downs, day and night. Who will be happy to have you as his wife, as you would be happy to have him as your husband.
Pinkeye.
Posted by Jai Narayan on August 5, 2004, at 17:07:29
In reply to Jadah, posted by Pfinstegg on August 4, 2004, at 7:13:53
that sounds like really good advice. I like how you described the 'Gold Coin' of therapy. I will take that with me. Thank you.
Posted by Jadah on August 22, 2004, at 20:48:23
In reply to Jadah, posted by Pfinstegg on August 4, 2004, at 7:13:53
I ended it on Saturday. Niether of us were happy about it but I knew it was coming soon. He felt so guilty about what he was doing to the marriage. For now, I have been having phone sessions with him, as it is too hard and risky for me to see him. To be together can easily mean a slip and a viscious on again off again cycle. Im very depressed. Dont know what Im going to do. Right now dont care much about anything. The rest of my life is in shambles to begin with (it seems) without him fully Im lost. Sighhhh.... I hope people have learned from my experience. Now that this affair is over, I can only wish that I am not pregnant with his child. Although, that might not necessarily be a bad thing, I already told him I would raise it myself if he chose not to be involved. He said that would bother him, he couldnt allow that. Who knows. Im sure it will work out. I'll be back eventually, I really need you all. Take care. Im movin' on.
Jadah
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 22, 2004, at 23:21:09
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg, posted by Jadah on August 22, 2004, at 20:48:23
That showed so much courage- it must have been the hardest thing you have ever have had to do. You know you have a tremendous amount of support from everyone here, but I hope you can find a new and wonderful therapist for yourself. Since you are having phone sessions with him, still, you have time to interview several to see who *feels* the best. I really think that's worth doing- I did it, and of the four I saw, the one I'm with now just seemed right the moment I walked into his office. You do want to be a bit choosy, as you will be feeling so much loss, and a powerful mixture of good and bad feelings about what has occurred- you do need someone- male or female- who can deal with that situation with sophistication and empathy- as well as the issues which originally brought you to therapy.
Thank you for letting us know what you did; many of us have had you in mind, and were concerned not to see you posting. I just have to say it once more: what you did is the ultimate in courage and strength. I think it's so healthy that YOU did it, rather than waiting for him- that might have meant more lost years when you didn't progress towards finding a loving man just for you. Please post when you feel like it, and let us know how things are going. Therapy is so often intensely painful, but what he allowed to happen adds so many other intense feelings- loneliness, anger, regret for having to give up the wonderful parts of that relationship, doubt about the future, etc. I feel confident that a really good therapist whose boundaries you can trust will help tremendously in lessening the pain you must be feeling now. I hope you will keep us informed.
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 22, 2004, at 23:24:52
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg, posted by Jadah on August 22, 2004, at 20:48:23
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 1:05:22
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg, posted by Jadah on August 22, 2004, at 20:48:23
Jadah, if we can help you we will. Please keep in touch, don't stop posting if it helps you. What you're going through is probably horrible. For your sake honey, I hope you're not pregnant because it's so hard to be hurt by the father of your child. I spent eight years or so talking to a ghost after he deserted us. Please be okay.
How did you end it?
Posted by kindgirl on August 23, 2004, at 9:13:23
In reply to You can do this and be okay...., posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 1:05:22
Jadah,
You are so courageous, and so brave, and good for you. You probably won't do anything harder in your life. When my affair ended (he dumped me) I was devastated. I wish I was the one who ended it...so to hear that you did makes me smile today.I think you knew there was no easy way out of this....it was getting messy being in the relationship and it was going to be messy getting out. It is all a huge mess right now. I am so sorry. You are stuck between a rock and a hard place in a lot of ways.
But I think you standing up for yourself and realizing that no matter how "good" this felt you have decided to keep trying for something better...something healthy...something good for Jadah. There is true love out there for you, Jadah. You sound like such a warm and caring person and I know you will find love again when you are ready. Right now I imagine you just want to bury your head under the covers. That's okay too.
I am praying for you today, if that is okay. Keep updating here because I know all of us worry about you and want to help you in any way we can. (((((((((((jadah))))))))))
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 10:19:41
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg, posted by Jadah on August 22, 2004, at 20:48:23
...is really wonderful Jadah. Would you be willing to take it as an option?
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 22:45:23
In reply to Re: Babblemail, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 10:19:41
Am I scaring Jadah away? I can be quiet if you want me to, I will.
Posted by Jadah on August 29, 2004, at 17:34:56
In reply to Re: You can do this and be okay...., posted by kindgirl on August 23, 2004, at 9:13:23
I hate him, I love him..... I hurt. There is a whole in my heart and an even bigger one in the pit of my stomach. I cant cry anymore, I just want to curl up in a ball for a while and disapear. I need you guys. Im falling apart, my friends are worried about me and are angry because I am not being honest about what is really going on with me. Im reaching for anything at this point. I just dont want to feel. I hate him.....I love him. It is truley over. Be back later....
Jadah
Posted by Susan47 on August 29, 2004, at 22:14:56
In reply to Re: Im hurting so bad, posted by Jadah on August 29, 2004, at 17:34:56
Oh Jadah we're here.
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