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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 33 to 57 of 63. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on June 25, 2014, at 22:33:29
In reply to Thanks, Phillipa (nm), posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 22:14:32
so... i feel a little like baseball... i feel... like i would feel different. i would feel hurt and betrayed and stuff... but with the world more generally, rather than with him in particular. but maybe... that would be too much. so... it's easier to feel that way about him in particular? or something... i don't know.
sometimes i feel like you have an alien psychology to me. i only say this because... mostly i feel like you are one of the very very few people in the world who understands me so well. and because a place like babble... one of the most wonderful things about it (for me) was that i felt like i could always be genuine about what i did and at times what i did not identify with. because there were OTHER people and there was ALWAYS a few who could. so i didn't ever feel like i had to... sort of... pretend to... when i didn't.
some of the times i think i've learned the most on babble... have been times when i really didn't feel that i understood where you were coming from at all. and you were good enough to put considerable time and effort into trying to explain to me or bob or whomever... and i think i came to understand a bit more. not perfectly, but a bit more. things like... therapists and washing machines... about particular vs role... stuff about choral colonies... small groups... inclusion exclusion... so much...
i empathise with feeling... hurt and let down. really very. meltdown... i get that. what happened with my t once i got back to australia... i can empathise with your feeling like things are irreperable. i understand your feeling... but i guess i don't really see how this prompted it. or something. i don't quite feel like i'm following along.
with respect to the privacy / confidentiality thing... i think that insofar as it affects you and is something that you are processing... i would think that you could disclose it. but perhaps not. i understand you feeling that it is not your place to talk about him... but this is about how something about him is affecting you. how you are dealing with it... anyway... i don't entirely know what i'm saying.
i'm glad you are here.
Posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 22:56:50
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on June 25, 2014, at 22:33:29
I've explained it as well as I could. Those who understand, if anyone does, will understand. Those who don't understand just will have to not understand because I can't make my thoughts any clearer than I already have. And I feel guilty enough about saying as much as I have about *his* circumstances. I am not going to say more.
I'm not really asking for advice. I just thought people might like to know how things ended.
They know now.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 25, 2014, at 23:44:35
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 25, 2014, at 22:56:50
i understand bits, i think. but maybe not other bits.
i am hoping that time will help. will help with the feeling, i mean. i know that to start with it really doesn't feel like that. i'm remembering back in my own life... back to when i got back from the us... and i felt like my t had really dropped me. and i felt like there was no way that i could ever forget that or forgive him for having done that... i think that maybe that is a little like how you are feeling now?
time did help. it didn't fix it. ever. but i did end up with working with him again... things were never the same. i didn't feel i could trust him.
but then i never felt like i could trust him before, either. so. i ... uh... don't know what to say.
i guess i'm .. well.. i thought this might not be the end. that in time... you might choose to see him again. even if it is about processing this... for however long it takes.
but i don't know.
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 0:06:56
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on June 25, 2014, at 23:44:35
It's not the end of seeing him ever. If I have something specific to process I'll see him.
What I won't do is see him week in and week out, never knowing when the other shoe will drop. When he will again do exactly the same thing he did this time and hurt me horribly again.
I'm not sure what's so hard to understand. Therapist caused me incredible pain. I don't like pain. I know therapist could very well cause me that sort of pain again. Therapist doesn't even pretend that he would do anything differently. I don't want to be hurt again so I don't want to see therapist on a regular basis again. In fact, it may be some time before I can see him for a single session. I think therapist, I think pain. Simple aversion psychology. Even my dog exhibits it with the oven timer.
Perhaps some people could just accept that from time to time incredible pain will happen. Or accept that at any time he could just abandon me with barely a mass email and no real explanation at all. And just enjoy the time we have together. But I can't. I wouldn't enjoy the time together.
And I certainly am not going to *pay* for the possibility of suffering incredible pain and the certainty of constantly being vigilant and afraid that something will happen and I won't know when, where or why.
How can time affect that? Twenty years of building a relationship didn't stop it from occurring. A few more years of him being around without abandoning me won't keep me from being aware it could happen at any moment.
Is that really hard to understand?
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 0:27:10
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 0:06:56
I'm even repelled by his new office. I associate it with pain and hysterics and stupid bitch referred therapist luring me there under false pretenses. More aversion training.
I dislike her intensely, and I even dislike the other therapists I've only seen but not yet met. I guess the whole feeling of aversion has rubbed off on them. My skin crawls at the idea of seeing them and being in that office.
Office = stupid bitch referred therapist = pain
Therapist = pain
Dinah ~ avoid pain
Posted by alexandra_k on June 26, 2014, at 0:58:07
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 0:06:56
i understand wanting to avoid pain. and i understand... shying away from a person who has caused pain.
i guess... i'm a bit hung up on the attribution. maybe this is what baseball is wondering too, i don't know.
i hear that he WAS concerned about you. traditional therapists... wouldn't have told you anything at all. wouldn't have told you where they went or why they went. certainly wouldn't have told you anything at all to the effect that they cared about you most-est, or whatever.
and of course i wouldn't last 5 minutes with a traditional therapist. i'd be a psychotic mess... i'd almost certainly punch them. one or two, or five or six times... or whatever. so... no arguments from me on that one, at all...
but he's not one to make up stories - yeah? and he told you... that he was concerned about you *in particular*. that in his distressed moment he was aware that he *didn't know what to do about you* he *didn't know what was appropriate for him to do*. he has decided that he should disclose this stuff to you (later). many therapists would advise him not to do this...
he... probably needed to take their advise. they didn't know you from a barge pole. they needed to decide whether it was more likely that he was right - that you needed something significantly different from the traditional line... clearly that bitch woman you talked to *did not get it at all*. my experience is that most mental health workers are cut from that very cloth. but, uh, what was he to do?
under the circumstances, what was he to do?
i guess i feel that, very strongly. while also feeling... how i felt when my therapist promised he'd email me a couple times after his wife had a baby (when it took a month off) and he didn't email me for three and a half weeks... and i got to thinking that his wife died or the baby died or both. or the baby was very sick or his wife was very sick. or the baby was horribly deformed or... and then it turned out he'd just been, uh, just the regular kind of 'busy'... so feeling... dropped. which isn't forgivable. only under the circumstances... understandable. but hurt me.
maybe that is it... i don't see why you don't think that his actions were understandable - given the circumstances. hurtful, yes. let you down. etc. but... given the circumstances... i don't see why you can't think that he did the best he could...
that... that is good enough.
perhaps it isn't. i think klein goes into that. something something about reality being too much to bear. trying your best doesn't f*ck*ng fix it.
i don't know ...
Posted by alexandra_k on June 26, 2014, at 1:00:55
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on June 26, 2014, at 0:58:07
maybe that is why i think about time.
they say the pains of childbirth would prevent women having another child. if we remembered them full force, i mean. but we forget with time... or at least... some do.
maybe some pains are like that?
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 1:08:34
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on June 26, 2014, at 0:58:07
I'm willing to believe he did his best. Both to care about me and in this situation.
His best wasn't good enough.
And why should it matter? After twenty years is it so bad to quit? If I hadn't had my therapist disappear with barely any word sending me toppling into an abyss of pain, I was well on my way to cutting back anyway. And after he contacted me six weeks in and put me out of my misery of not knowing, I did well enough without him. Certainly better than I would do with him under current circumstances. Why must I continue to see him?
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 1:16:15
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on June 26, 2014, at 1:00:55
Childbirth isn't quite the same. It doesn't exactly come out of the blue with no warning and no way to anticipate it. It doesn't bring the anxiety of being aware that it could happen again at any time with no warning whatsoever. And when it happens, there is no real uncertainty about what to expect.
Every single time I see him it will be with the knowledge that he might disappear before our next appointment, with no real explanation and no way for me to anticipate the likelihood.
Even if it never happened again, and it well might happen again, I would have to live with that anxiety every single day that I allow myself to care whether he is there or not. Time is just going to make it worse, not better. The constant anxiety and vigilance will end up leaving me with a phobia like my emetophobia. I will be terrified of meeting with my therapist. He will be the reason I am in need of therapy.
Why on earth would I do that to myself?
Why do you care if I quit therapy?
Posted by alexandra_k on June 26, 2014, at 1:17:21
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 1:08:34
i guess i get to thinking of those epic failure clips... Olympic athletes or whatever... pole vault... the leap... and it is beautiful. body stretched right out... nearly nearly nearly... no. those disappointment shots. the failures.
and there is this thing about 'better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all'. and there is beauty. in the aspiration. in the attempt. something... about someone having the courage to give it their all and then fail. because it is a really f*ck*ng hard thing to do. mostly people (mostly me) is too afraid of failure to give myself permission even to try...
and disappointment hurts.
and it can be terrifying to face limits sometimes, i think. the true limits of 'i can't'. 'i did my best and i can't'.
but i guess i focus on the 'tried'. i don't know...
with respect to continuing to see him... i would think... precisely because of the current circumstances. do you really want things to end like this?
it is hard, though. i don't know. now i'm thinking about my dad. died. useless sack of sh*t. just curled up and died, basically. useless.
people really are abandoning a-holes.
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 1:33:34
In reply to Re: Thanks, Phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on June 26, 2014, at 1:17:21
You think I didn't try? Have you put twenty years into working and fighting towards a relationship? Not tried?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT TRIED??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No one, including him, has tried harder than I have. And I won the prize. He openly says he cares about me like a therapy daughter. He says that he has never had another relationship (based on twenty years of hard work) with a client like he has with me, and never expects to have another. After all, the likelihood of someone else starting with him now putting in twenty years is not huge, especially not someone willing to get past what I've gotten past with him, and surviving a catastrophe the way I survived Katrina with him. Why, he cared about me 8 weeks more than he cared about any other client.
I just don't find the prize is worth the cost of trying. Twenty years of working and fighting towards relationship and he disappears leaving me the same f*ck*ng impersonal email that he left every other one of his many many clients. He leaves me in incredible pain for six f*ck*ng weeks. I suppose that his other clients didn't get any relief after those six weeks were up. But then his other clients likely didn't feel the pain of having their therapist of twenty f*ck*ng years disappear on them. Because they had only known him for weeks, or possibly months. They hadn't put in the time and the effort and the tears and the pain. They didn't get the six week call like I did, but then they didn't have to suffer the pain involved in a long term relationship ending like that either.
I'm not "giving up". Giving up implies that I am working towards something. I already achieved the best I could ever achieve. There is nothing more out there for me to work for. I got hold of the gold ring of therapy clients. Aren't I the lucky one.
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 1:36:26
In reply to You don't get it. » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 1:33:34
Brass ring. I'm pretty sure the metaphor involves a brass ring.
Posted by Partlycloudy on June 26, 2014, at 11:22:44
In reply to You don't get it. » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 1:33:34
I don't either.
Somehow, a medical illness that was bad enough for him to have to hand his practice over to another therapist - which is highly professional, regardless of what relationships have been formed over the years, trumps all.
No, I can't say I get it either.
Sorry.
PC
Posted by alexandra_k on June 26, 2014, at 15:35:03
In reply to You don't get it. » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 1:33:34
people die. i mean... you put all that time and effort into the relationship and they just up and die on you. not so much as a goodbye sometimes.
is that the same... or not?
____
you feel what you feel... i think it is better that you feel it than that you try and supress it or whatever. i... tend to get it all messed up with a bunch of hurt and guilt and shame and... well... i'd probably go to therapy and just sit there in silence... not being able to say anything... hating him for hurting me and feeling guilty for feeling that way. hating myself for it, actually... which is... not exactly ideal either. in whatever f*ck*d up sense of ideal i have. and i wouldn't know how to get past that... so... it is interesting that you have a different response. sort of. i don't know.
Posted by Phillipa on June 26, 2014, at 19:06:38
In reply to Re: You don't get it., posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 1:36:26
Dinah I know how upset and still angry you are and also abandoned. But that was a good point. He's older isn't he? What if he became very ill and was deceased. He could not contact you at all. I get you feel abandoned. Same happened to me when my Mother died when I was 17. But some things we have no control over. And boy that is scary. Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 19:57:41
In reply to Re: You don't get it. » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on June 26, 2014, at 19:06:38
I don't need anyone to get it.
I am sorry I came here. I was foolish enough to think people might see the positive side of ending a twenty year long therapy that included a really unhealthy dependence. I was feeling good about my decision and still do. In the long run it will probably be a good thing for me. I'd have never left if he hadn't abandoned me.
Everyone feel free to think whatever you like about me. It doesn't matter enough to me to try to fight it. And I am *not* not ever going to put myself in the position to let him hurt me again.
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 20:32:11
In reply to Re: You don't get it., posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 19:57:41
The really ironic part is that I wasn't angry with him until people started pushing me to change my decision or my feelings or whatever.
Before that, I was accepting that he did his best and his best wasn't "good enough".
* He* understood why I feel as if I can't continue ongoing therapy with him. We hugged when I left and he assured me that he would see me whenever I wanted to check in. He might have hoped for things to continue as they were, but he understood what terrible shape his abandonment (his word) left me in. *He* understood how much it would affect my ability to trust him.
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 20:39:58
In reply to Re: You don't get it. » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on June 26, 2014, at 19:06:38
Funny thing is that that was one of the hundreds of scenarios, likely and unlikely, that we discussed about his possibly abandoning me. He told me that if he died, he'd make sure there was someone who knew to call me. And he very much hoped I would come to his funeral.
After he lesser abandoned me after Katrina, we spent I don't know how many sessions talking about possible scenarios.
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 20:51:18
In reply to Re: You don't get it., posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 19:57:41
Did I commit to lifelong therapy, no matter how unhealthy it was for me?
If he was in a friend relationship with me, I'd be a horrid person to walk away because of what happened. But that's not the case. However much personal relationship was within the professional one, he expects me to pay him when I see him. The expectation is that I pay him because seeing him is good for my mental health. If he no longer provides stability, he is no longer helping my mental health.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 26, 2014, at 21:35:59
In reply to Re: You don't get it., posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 20:32:11
:-(
i was hoping i got at least *some* of it.
i wouldn't want you to lie about your feeling. or feel like you have to change them... or feel that they were wrong or invalid... or... feel like i thought or felt like they were.
Posted by Phillipa on June 26, 2014, at 22:50:15
In reply to Re: You don't get it. » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on June 26, 2014, at 20:39:58
Dinah all bases covered and true about pay and if you no longer need therapy all the time why good. Good decision. Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on June 27, 2014, at 3:56:08
In reply to Re: You don't get it., posted by alexandra_k on June 26, 2014, at 21:35:59
Thank you, Alex. It did rather feel like you were thinking that. Thanks for clarifying you don't.
Posted by Dinah on June 27, 2014, at 4:01:47
In reply to Re: You don't get it. » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on June 26, 2014, at 22:50:15
Thanks, Phillipa. I think I really don't. Since he called me to explain, I've only occasionally felt like I needed an objective third party to discuss things that have come up. Those would be the times I might call him for a session, if it turns out I find it more helpful than not.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 27, 2014, at 19:42:26
In reply to Re: You don't get it. » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on June 27, 2014, at 3:56:08
no, i genuinely don't.
i would... i would beat myself up along those lines. and then i would... beat myself up for beating myself up... and, well, i get stuck in these unhelpful cycles...
but i wouldn't beat you up along those lines. i admire you for... being different from me in some respects.
and it gets me thinking... what is it about your response that i can accept... that i'd have a harder time coming from myself...
and i honestly don't know.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 27, 2014, at 20:00:37
In reply to Re: You don't get it., posted by alexandra_k on June 27, 2014, at 19:42:26
actually... i would fear... i would fear that if i expressed such thoughts...
the other person would turn on me.
well and truly.
i think it is terrific that he is strong enough... and that you can trust him (or are willing to test his strength) to see whether he can take it...
i would fear... that he wouldn't hold a place for me. that later... i'd want to see him and he'd be all full up... he would have moved on... forgotten about me... that he'd come to see how much better his life was without seeing me... whatever.
i guess this stuff... is a lot of what would be behind my feeling i needed to ... uh... censor myself. or something. play 'good client'.
or actually...
what would really happen...
is that i wouldn't really be able to say anythign at all...
yeah. been there... can't speak.
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