![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 44. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Noa on September 25, 2001, at 17:39:27
I think the sadness and grief (appropriate) that I have been feeling since the terrorist attacks have tapped into and stirred up some of my depressive feelings of powerlessness. Despite several months of feeling pretty much depression-free, last week I had two pretty bad days, staying home and sleeping as much as possible. I feel better now, depressionwise, but feel that all of the emotion around the horrible events of September 11 does make me vulnerable.
I think it is wise for people to keep tabs what and how much each of us can tolerate in terms of being in touch with the feelings and tuning into the news media, and also to balance that with not going into too much escape/denial. Where that line is for each of is is the tricky part.
This horror has affected all of us, to varying degrees of course, some quite directly, some quite indirectly. But we are all affected somehow, I believe. I think those of us not affected directly are vulnerable to feeling we might not be entitled to the feelings that have come up for us. But we are entitled to our feelings and it is important to be able to voice them.
I'd like to see this discussion continue, focusing NOT on the macro level (politics/national response,etc.)but on the personal, emotional level of how we have been affected.
Posted by Mair on September 25, 2001, at 18:29:46
In reply to Terror's emotional effects, posted by Noa on September 25, 2001, at 17:39:27
> I'm glad you started this thread. I don't live in or near NYC and know virtually no one who lives there. Thus it's been hard to feel connected with this in a way that I think I should. For days (and still), I've been riveted to the news, both TV and newspapers, drawn to every personal story in particular I think in an attempt to connect myself to their suffering in a more personal way. Exposing yourself to all of this gets overwelming after awhile and it makes me feel very powerless - powerless to help, powerless to even begin to comprehend to scale of human suffering, and frankly guilty that my life trudges on pretty much as it did before. I'm not comfortable with all the chest pumping and while not unpatriotic, I'm not a big flag waver either, so I can't seem to share in the aura of love and unity. Mostly I just feel unsettled, anxious and generally uncomfortable with my own emotional response (or lack thereof). I'm pretty pessimistic about our ability to recover economically and about our ability to wage a successful campaign against terrorism without managing to alienate most of the arab world. I'm also starting to worry about the effect of this on all the people who aren't recognized as victims but are victims nonetheless. This includes all of the laid off airline workers, the unfairly persecuted muslims and includes all of those people who have been assisted in the past by charities whose traditional funding sources might now divert their giving to this tragedy. We're all stretched pretty thin. It's as if all of the other problems of this country have disappeared because everyone's so preoccupied, but really those problems are still there. Who's now going to notice?
Mair
Posted by dreamer on September 25, 2001, at 19:55:35
In reply to Terror's emotional effects, posted by Noa on September 25, 2001, at 17:39:27
Hi N,
I'm avoiding, is difficult, news , tv etc. I have been trying to shed the ambience of dread I feel I feel uneasy and any noise in the sky I wonder (I live in London) and fear the invisiblity of a possible chemical/biological warfare.
Dreams are affected.
Just trying to get on with things keeping busy .
Something out of my control brings out the frightened child in me .dreamer.
Posted by sar on September 26, 2001, at 2:11:46
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by dreamer on September 25, 2001, at 19:55:35
this is what i was trying to post on in an earlier thread, except i think it may have been misinterpreted by a few (i.e., i was discussing my emotional response rather than the crisis on a political, macro level). i feel really disconnected from all of it even though i've an uncle in NYC and another in Alexandria, VA. i just don't know what to think.
i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree.
i don't support that fatal degree, it's just that i sit here well-fed and pampered enjou=ying varying degrees of liberty while other suffer harsh climates and edgy rocks, tough religion and fright.
an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
rilly.
love,
sarthesecretmallrat
Posted by Roo on September 26, 2001, at 9:42:59
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by sar on September 26, 2001, at 2:11:46
I'm having a hard time sleeping. Feeling more
anxious. Really feel the need to be around other
people more, just being around warm bodies. Thinking
more hard core questions like "Am I on the right
path? Am I a good person? If I were to die tomorrow,
what is my life worth?"
Posted by Wendy B. on September 26, 2001, at 22:06:59
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by sar on September 26, 2001, at 2:11:46
sar,
sorry, your post has me feeling kind of rawly upset.
i think what you say trivializes the incredible suffering and sorrow that millions of people are feeling right now about the WTC and pentagon horrors, whether they live in or near those places or not. you even have relatives who have been affected! it's hard to comprehend.
would you extend your unconcern to jews in europe in the 1930s and 40s? what about black folks being lynched in mississippi and other places in the south, in the 40s 50s and 60s and beyond? what would give you the most bang for your buck in terms of the horror and death that's as close as your nearest television set? maybe nbc and cnn aren't doing good enough jobs representing to you the sorrow and the tears.
how about a trip to downtown NYC, you could stand on top of the pile of rubble. "hey! i hear they're doing tours now! but it'll cost you a few bucks for the vicarious thrill..."
i like shopping as much as the next person, but please. what you have written is 'rilly' disrespectful.
i have shown a lot of concern and care toward you; i think i have tried to convey that many times in many postings to you. so now i must express my fear that you are so out of touch that you have lost your humanity. and you seem to be bragging about it. some things may be better left unsaid.
i can't help wondering: do you think you are immune to this type of thing happening to you? ww III could be starting right in your back yard, the fanatics are trying to poison your drinking water and mine, too. those among the living in metropolitan nyc are worried about nerve gas in the subways, and now live in fear every single day that they'll be targets once again. and you won't be worried until you can't buy a new trinket, because your lifestyle will have had to change. poor you.
have you seen the film 'Behind the Veil'? afghan women are being beaten, tortured, and executed by the taliban extremists, for failing to cover their bodies with enough clothes or veils. if anything shows through, they are subject to the most cruel human rights violations. shopping at the mall isn't on their agendas for today, or for any day, for that matter. they can't work, they can't have money... women who were teachers and professionals prior to the taliban forces taking over are now rendered helpless. they don't do anything unless a man says it's ok first. they can't get educations. you wouldn't endure 5 days of that, much less 5 or 10 years.
bush and the flag-wavers are scrambling to try to figure out what to do, but we know it'll be foolish and careless. the lives of innocent civilians will be on the line, but who gives a shit about them, right? the terrorists will then hate us even more, and your future and mine will become even less stable.
death and destruction and evil are real.
taoist? it's all just a sham.
i know i'm gonna be blasted for my post, by you and many others, and will likely get banned. but i'd rather be banned for feeling too strongly, rather than not enough. or not at all.
wendy
> this is what i was trying to post on in an earlier thread, except i think it may have been misinterpreted by a few (i.e., i was discussing my emotional response rather than the crisis on a political, macro level). i feel really disconnected from all of it even though i've an uncle in NYC and another in Alexandria, VA. i just don't know what to think.
>
> i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree.
>
> i don't support that fatal degree, it's just that i sit here well-fed and pampered enjou=ying varying degrees of liberty while other suffer harsh climates and edgy rocks, tough religion and fright.
>
> an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
>
> rilly.
>
> love,
>
> sarthesecretmallrat
Posted by sol on September 27, 2001, at 0:02:13
In reply to Terror's emotional effects, posted by Noa on September 25, 2001, at 17:39:27
Forgive me if I don't comprehend what is going on here. If this is a close-knit group of Internet friends, I might now intrude by sharing my thoughts about something that causes a lot of trouble in my heart. I don't share with many here a history of diagnosis for some psychological disorder, but I have suffered mentally for many years. And I have been to several sites to follow discussion about the "new war" (what's so new about war?). I hope I may share what I feel in these times, though my dreams be plagued by nightmares.
Embarrassment, guilt, shame, loneliness, fear. On a microcosmic level, that is what I feel. But it is difficult to separate the microcosmic from the macrocosm. I don't even know if that is a good idea; it seems like a sort of denial to separate feelings from cause, especially at a time like this.
The events of the past month have plagued my nightmares all my life, I just could not always see them so plainly. For years, I feared when I saw urban areas, and knew my fear to be well founded. I was terrified throughout the last half of the Cold War for what happened on Sept. 11; when my. government backed the bombing of a Parliament building in South American and supported a coup to install a terrorist regime in Chile. That was 1973.
By some ruse of my imagination, I have at times isolated my microcosm of feelings from the macrocosmic events that let me feel what I feel. I have always known that the cheap fuel that lets me feel powerful and independent comes at the expense of people in the middle east - and that my nation was corrupting the political processes of nations there to insure a ready supply of cheap fuel here. I am embarrassed now for the way I fooled myself - for the cheap thrills I enjoyed.
I feel guilty that I could not or would not resist a culture I knew to be wrong and fool-hearty. I feel shame that I did not embrace the resistance I always knew was necessary, instead leaving those in less fortunate lands to falter, struggling in isolation. I regret that did not use my opportunity to foster a struggle that in its fairness, kindness and rightness would recruit allies in every land. Instead, I let my need for a simple life atrophy, and abandoned my desperate brothers and sisters in the Islamic world to a struggle where they had no effective allies but the most extreme militants.
I feel fear - in part that I will fall victim to someone fighting for essentially the same cause I forsook. But I feel more fear for what my own people might do. I am terrified that for refusing to join the mandatory national unity and wave a flag in a bloody celebration of the ultimate triumph of western values, I will be secretly targeted in war that knows no rules and considers extra-judicial execution to be the right if a victorious army.
I feel stupid, that for one day, nay, for years, I let psychologists call my fear of flying irrational. I knew in my heart that flying through the skies so casually was deeply offensive to many in the world. Rather than consider the feelings of others - of billions across Asia and the East - I let peer pressure convince me that flying is perfectly safe. I let myself believe those thrill-ride jet planes were toys, and denied to myself what I knew to be true - that they were dangerous weapons of mass destruction. I knew all along the airline industry destroyed cultures in the lands were bauxite is mined, in the valleys were hydroelectric dams produce electricity to smelt bauxite into aluminum, and in the desert lands were sultans are propped up as rulers if they agree to plunder oil to fuel the jets. But I did not wake up from my fool's dream until the weapons were turned to destroy the cities I called home.
Those towers made me tremble the first time I saw them, but again, I repressed a well founded fear. Knowing in my heart those towers were idolatrous monuments to pride and greed, I followed the guidance of foolish propagandists called pop psychologists. I deceived myself by climbing to the top and enjoying the view. It is lonely at the top. Now my compassion for those thousands who died can't seem to cloud my rational mind. Maybe what is going on the financial districts of New York, Chicago, Singapore, Malaysia, Tokyo - maybe that is something very, very wrong. I suffer for those who died, and who were wounded and for their surviving families. That these traders died, along with passengers on jets and some military people, does not make their free-wheeling market economy any more right, though. I have suffered with survivors all my life - many who were otherwise scorned and ridiculed as outcasts of the western way of life. I don't endorse terror and never have. I have opposed mass killing of civilians since I was a child.
Why did I wait for this? I am so ready to evacuate. I wonder why I wait for the next alarm to get up and walk away from this very wrong way of life.
Posted by Noa on September 27, 2001, at 14:02:59
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by Roo on September 26, 2001, at 9:42:59
> questions like "Am I on the right
> path? Am I a good person? If I were to die tomorrow,
> what is my life worth?"I think a lot of people are experiencing this.
Today, I came to the library to read back issues of the newspaper. I had wanted to see the papers in the immediate aftermath of the terrorist attacks, but somehow didn't manage until now. What struck me was that when I pulled out the papers from the stack, I saw that in addition to the main story, the terrorist attacks, there were remaining articles in a series on children who died while supposedly under the supervision of the child welfare system. I had totally forgotten about the series, which I had begun to read earlier in the week of September 11, and had intended to read all the articles, but totally forgot about them because of the attacks.
I felt so sad that this incredibly important investigative reporting series was overshadowed by the horror of September 11. It then became important to me to read all the articles. Now, among my questions (like the ones you pose) are these: what can I do to help? what can I do in my lifetime that will make my life meaningful? How can I be more aware of the things right around me that are important?
Posted by Mair on September 27, 2001, at 22:34:02
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » sar, posted by Wendy B. on September 26, 2001, at 22:06:59
>I don't want to take sides here. Sar did sound insensitive, but we know that she is not unfeeling. I do think that this tragedy is so unfathomable- so much so that it's difficult to feel connected if it hasn't touched you in some personal way. I've tried to force myself to feel more connected - I read every possible article, particularly those about people who lost loved ones, but it gets pretty numbing. I think I will feel it's emotional effects more acutely as i see it changing my life and those of people around me. This can include things as seemingly mundane as trips not taken, income diminished etc. As shallow as it may sound, these are the things that may make some people feel the most "connected" to this.
Mair
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > this is what i was trying to post on in an earlier thread, except i think it may have been misinterpreted by a few (i.e., i was discussing my emotional response rather than the crisis on a political, macro level). i feel really disconnected from all of it even though i've an uncle in NYC and another in Alexandria, VA. i just don't know what to think.
> >
> > i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree.
> >
> > i don't support that fatal degree, it's just that i sit here well-fed and pampered enjou=ying varying degrees of liberty while other suffer harsh climates and edgy rocks, tough religion and fright.
> >
> > an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
> >
> > rilly.
> >
> > love,
> >
> > sarthesecretmallrat
Posted by Marie1 on September 28, 2001, at 8:24:23
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by sar on September 26, 2001, at 2:11:46
Sar,
I'm assuming I was one of the "few" who misinterpreted your response to our national tragedy in the earlier thread. But after reading this, I don't think I did. I don't see how you can accept the crime against our country, as though it's something we must have deserved, when you read and watch the affects of it on the victims? How can these be separated? How can this horror ever be justified, on any level, political or otherwise? I'm really struggling to understand your position.
Marie> this is what i was trying to post on in an earlier thread, except i think it may have been misinterpreted by a few (i.e., i was discussing my emotional response rather than the crisis on a political, macro level). i feel really disconnected from all of it even though i've an uncle in NYC and another in Alexandria, VA. i just don't know what to think.
>
> i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree.
>
> i don't support that fatal degree, it's just that i sit here well-fed and pampered enjou=ying varying degrees of liberty while other suffer harsh climates and edgy rocks, tough religion and fright.
>
> an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
>
> rilly.
>
> love,
>
> sarthesecretmallrat
Posted by Krazy Kat on September 28, 2001, at 10:56:10
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » sar, posted by Marie1 on September 28, 2001, at 8:24:23
> Sar,
> I think I understand to some extent what you're saying - that it's just so far removed from reality for you? It's just that your post is quite instigating.
I wasn't going to post this, but I think I will.
People in Battery Park City are coming back to their apartments and finding body parts. There are body parts on the lower roofs in downtown New York, office furniture and pieces of people's clothing and pieces of them just sitting on top of a building.
Rescue workers are fainting because of exhaustion and because of the stinch. They have to sift through everything to try to find pieces of human flesh that can be identified.
The city is somber and empty. It's as if its heart was ripped out. People are still moving about, but their eyes are vacant.
Taoism has some good ideas re: living in the moment and accepting things you can't change. It does not call on you to ignore strife and tragedy.
- K.
Posted by Dinah on September 28, 2001, at 11:32:40
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects-the horror in NY, posted by Krazy Kat on September 28, 2001, at 10:56:10
I wasn't going to post anything on this subject either. But I didn't want you to think you were alone in your opinions. The whole thing is so distressing, and it is bringing up a lot of reactions that are raw, and have a lot to do with our prior beliefs and feelings about our country. I myself am no war advocate, but I can see the difference between military actions designed to defend our country from any future unwarranted acts of aggression and retaliation. I am aware that there are those who would dispute my use of the word "unwarranted", but when you think of all those people going to work, or trying to help others, who were killed - and even worse, all the loved ones of those people, "unwarranted" seems to fit, regardless of any unwise decisions our government has made in the past.
However, I am still very much in the mourning phase, and the awed appreciation for the rescue workers and the passengers on the plane in PA and it is very hard for me to be supportive of certain posts, although I am trying hard to separate them (the posts) from the posters. I am trying to remember the flat unemotional feeling that I felt while on Luvox (I couldn't feel anything when my beloved dog died), and I am wondering if that has anything to do with sar's problems in feeling the intensity of our loss.
Thanks, krazy kat, for bringing us the images that TV doesn't show us and for reminding us of the humanity of this moment.
Posted by Noa on September 28, 2001, at 16:15:07
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects-Wendy B, Krazy Kat, posted by Dinah on September 28, 2001, at 11:32:40
When I read Sar's post, it was hard for me to know how to read it, but I erred on the side of it being her honest description of what was going on for her emotionally, not necessarily a statement of philosophy. I think it is important to make that distinction. As Dinah points out, this is so enormous and so distressing for so many people, that we all deal with it in different ways.
I think for many of us, the turn off switch needs to kick in sometimes--to disconnect us from what could be overwhelming floods of fear and sadness and rage, etc. I think it is also why when a thread like this is started, it doesn't take long for the conversation to shift from our own individual emotional reactions to focusing on what the country should do about the attacks. It is just too hard to sit with the feelings for most of us, don't you think?
Sometimes I think it is very hard for people to feel connected to an event. The visual images were surreal, weren't they? For me, it was only after the media focused on some personal stories that it started to seem more real to me. Also, for some reason, the image of the towers on fire and collapsing seemed unreal to me, but when I saw the clouds of ash and dust billowing down the narrow streets and people running to escape them, I think I connected to the other (non-visual) sensory aspects of that (thought of being surrounded by this monstrous cloud, not being able to breathe, etc.) and that made it more real to me, although I continue to grapple with absorbing that this horrible horrible thing really did happen. I think our brains aren't very open to absorbing this kind of input--for me, anyway, I think it probably challenges everything my brain knows about my world and how I go along in my life assuming I will generally be safe.
ALso, I think the sheer numbers are too big to comprehend. I mean how often is it that you and I actually deal with six or seven thousand of anything? If we spend that much in dollars, it is usually a safe bet to say we don't deal in cash, let alone single dollar bills. I have never amassed any collection of six or seven thousand items. How many is six or seven thousand people? I guess I would need someone to give me an analogy of some kind of gathering place where I could actually visualize that many people. If there are about 200 people on a full airplane, that would be like 30 to 35 full airplanes of people. Even that doesn't help me imagine how many people. My brain just resists it. Or perhaps it would help to visualize the size of a neighborhood that would house that many people and their families, left behind. If someone could draw such an analogy and I could compare it to a neighborhood I am familiar with, maybe then the concept of the number of people killed would be something I could understand.
Posted by Kristi on September 28, 2001, at 18:30:33
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by Noa on September 28, 2001, at 16:15:07
Noa...
Very well said!That last paragraph especially... has me thinking. How to comprehend that number. Well, that'll keep me busy tonight.
Kristi
> When I read Sar's post, it was hard for me to know how to read it, but I erred on the side of it being her honest description of what was going on for her emotionally, not necessarily a statement of philosophy. I think it is important to make that distinction. As Dinah points out, this is so enormous and so distressing for so many people, that we all deal with it in different ways.
>
> I think for many of us, the turn off switch needs to kick in sometimes--to disconnect us from what could be overwhelming floods of fear and sadness and rage, etc. I think it is also why when a thread like this is started, it doesn't take long for the conversation to shift from our own individual emotional reactions to focusing on what the country should do about the attacks. It is just too hard to sit with the feelings for most of us, don't you think?
>
> Sometimes I think it is very hard for people to feel connected to an event. The visual images were surreal, weren't they? For me, it was only after the media focused on some personal stories that it started to seem more real to me. Also, for some reason, the image of the towers on fire and collapsing seemed unreal to me, but when I saw the clouds of ash and dust billowing down the narrow streets and people running to escape them, I think I connected to the other (non-visual) sensory aspects of that (thought of being surrounded by this monstrous cloud, not being able to breathe, etc.) and that made it more real to me, although I continue to grapple with absorbing that this horrible horrible thing really did happen. I think our brains aren't very open to absorbing this kind of input--for me, anyway, I think it probably challenges everything my brain knows about my world and how I go along in my life assuming I will generally be safe.
>
> ALso, I think the sheer numbers are too big to comprehend. I mean how often is it that you and I actually deal with six or seven thousand of anything? If we spend that much in dollars, it is usually a safe bet to say we don't deal in cash, let alone single dollar bills. I have never amassed any collection of six or seven thousand items. How many is six or seven thousand people? I guess I would need someone to give me an analogy of some kind of gathering place where I could actually visualize that many people. If there are about 200 people on a full airplane, that would be like 30 to 35 full airplanes of people. Even that doesn't help me imagine how many people. My brain just resists it. Or perhaps it would help to visualize the size of a neighborhood that would house that many people and their families, left behind. If someone could draw such an analogy and I could compare it to a neighborhood I am familiar with, maybe then the concept of the number of people killed would be something I could understand.
Posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 1:41:14
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » sar, posted by Wendy B. on September 26, 2001, at 22:06:59
> sar,
>
> sorry, your post has me feeling kind of rawly upset.Wendy,
i'm sorry this happened, and i want to iron this out.
> i think what you say trivializes the incredible suffering and sorrow that millions of people are feeling right now about the WTC and pentagon horrors, whether they live in or near those places or not. you even have relatives who have been affected! it's hard to comprehend.
"it's hard to comprehend"--that's exactly right. it is difficult to comprehend because i'm not THERE. i posted that message rather offhandedly and somewhat obnoxiously, i agree, but i posted i on PSB. PSYCH-SOCIAL BABBLE. i am rather FUCT-UP emotionally, and i thought that this was an appropriate place to post how i truly feel, because do i feel threatened, scared, truly affected? no, not really. that's just the brutal truth. i'm not at all politically correct.
when i was in ninth grade, my dad read a newspaper story to me about a gruesome train wreck in which all or most of the passengers were killed. i cried intermittently all day. since that time, some crazy shit has happened to me, and my defenses have grown.
i spent half my work day crying in the bathroom, Receiving, and the lounge, but i had no idea why. the tears get all clogged up and burst out.
> would you extend your unconcern to jews in europe in the 1930s and 40s? what about black folks being lynched in mississippi and other places in the south, in the 40s 50s and 60s and beyond? what would give you the most bang for your buck in terms of the horror and death that's as close as your nearest television set? maybe nbc and cnn aren't doing good enough jobs representing to you the sorrow and the tears.
i cried when i read elie weisel's *Night.* i wrote a letter to Johanna Reiss in grade 6; she'd written a true-life account of being a hidden-away Jew during the holocaust and it touched me so much that i had to get in contact with her. she sent me a postcard in return, which i treasure to this day. i love the Free Mumia rallies. the racism i've seen in the southeast particularly has truly pissed me off. ever been to South Carolina? prepare to feel angry and helpless.
> how about a trip to downtown NYC, you could stand on top of the pile of rubble. "hey! i hear they're doing tours now! but it'll cost you a few bucks for the vicarious thrill..."yes, that's what it would honestly take. i have to see it firsthand. i'm trashy, i need the vicarious thrill, maybe i'm emotionally retarded and can't obtain it from the media. the still pictire of dan rather crying on dave letterman went to my heart, but i sell copy after copy of newsweek at work, i lead people to the koran, the suicidal part of me shouts, "bomb here!" let the cool new yorkers live...
> i like shopping as much as the next person, but please. what you have written is 'rilly' disrespectful.totally true! i am wrong, politically incorrect, disgusting, disresprectful. i'm not being snide or sarcastic, i'm being completely honest, my lack of feelings about these attacks and deaths BOTHERS me, which is precisely why i posted a semi-provocative but britally honest message on this board. this isn't a site about politics, manners, or patriotism--it's about psychological issues. my issue is that i don't feel much.
> i have shown a lot of concern and care toward you; i think i have tried to convey that many times in many postings to you. so now i must express my fear that you are so out of touch that you have lost your humanity. and you seem to be bragging about it. some things may be better left unsaid.Wendy, i've so appreciated all of the support you've given me, i dig you so much, and this misunderstanding bothers me. i really may have lost my humanity, that's true. the other day a friend of mine and i moved a dead cat out of the street and into some soft grass and informed the owner's neighbors. i can still see this bloody post-rigor-mortis calico in my mind. maybe i'm stuck in that freudian stage or whatever in which if i can't see it immediately before my eyes, it doesn't exist.
> i can't help wondering: do you think you are immune to this type of thing happening to you? ww III could be starting right in your back yard, the fanatics are trying to poison your drinking water and mine, too. those among the living in metropolitan nyc are worried about nerve gas in the subways, and now live in fear every single day that they'll be targets once again. and you won't be worried until you can't buy a new trinket, because your lifestyle will have had to change. poor you.yes, that's really true. i'm all-or-nothing. if i can't have banana republic i'd rather be a street urchin wearing a burlap sack. my perspective is all out of whack. i'm just being honest, i appreciate you helping to put things in perspective, but i don't think i should be flogged for my feelings, *particularly* because most of my hippie-type friends feel the same way. (i do have some military buds, and they are ready to be deployed. they've fire in their eyes.)
i respect both ways.
> have you seen the film 'Behind the Veil'? afghan women are being beaten, tortured, and executed by the taliban extremists, for failing to cover their bodies with enough clothes or veils. if anything shows through, they are subject to the most cruel human rights violations. shopping at the mall isn't on their agendas for today, or for any day, for that matter. they can't work, they can't have money... women who were teachers and professionals prior to the taliban forces taking over are now rendered helpless. they don't do anything unless a man says it's ok first. they can't get educations. you wouldn't endure 5 days of that, much less 5 or 10 years.
i haven't seen the film, but the oppression of women not only in the taliban but in africa really gets under my skin. the veils in the middle east, the clitoridectomies in africa--i am not unaware. i know of the mistreatment and am strongly afainst it; i haven't done anything proactively against it, but my opinion has been set since i started reading Jane Pratt's *Sassy* ten years ago: this worldwide mistreatment of the female gender is outrageous.
> bush and the flag-wavers are scrambling to try to figure out what to do, but we know it'll be foolish and careless. the lives of innocent civilians will be on the line, but who gives a shit about them, right? the terrorists will then hate us even more, and your future and mine will become even less stable.a co-worker of mine in his forties wears a tee-shirt that says MY SON IS IN THE AIR FORCE. today his son got all of his official badges and uniform, their family had a celebratory dinner, and my co-worker brought the son to out workplace to show him off. it warms my heart that he's so proud of his son, so confident in him, but i've already got flashbulb shots of this kid in my head: he'll be dead within the year. and i will be crushed.
> death and destruction and evil are real.
i agree.
> taoist? it's all just a sham.
taoism? or my claim of believing in taoist theory?
> i know i'm gonna be blasted for my post, by you and many others, and will likely get banned. but i'd rather be banned for feeling too strongly, rather than not enough. or not at all.
wendy, your post is completely appropriate. i only wish i could feel as appropriately as you do. when i step on a roly-poly, i feel like cring. when i think of world war, i feel nothing.
in my defense, i think this was all appropriate to post on PSB. i apologize if anyone took disrespect to it.
my post is just this: it has not HIT ME YET. yes, i would need to see the body parts and smell the stench. i would need to be around the victims to feel this. i don't watch television much or even read the paper more than once or twice a week--i'm self-centered right now. it's really disgusting.
and it's honest.
respectfully,
sar
> wendy
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > this is what i was trying to post on in an earlier thread, except i think it may have been misinterpreted by a few (i.e., i was discussing my emotional response rather than the crisis on a political, macro level). i feel really disconnected from all of it even though i've an uncle in NYC and another in Alexandria, VA. i just don't know what to think.
> >
> > i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree.
> >
> > i don't support that fatal degree, it's just that i sit here well-fed and pampered enjou=ying varying degrees of liberty while other suffer harsh climates and edgy rocks, tough religion and fright.
> >
> > an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
> >
> > rilly.
> >
> > love,
> >
> > sarthesecretmallrat
Posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 1:58:43
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » sar, posted by Marie1 on September 28, 2001, at 8:24:23
> Sar,
> I'm assuming I was one of the "few" who misinterpreted your response to our national tragedy in the earlier thread. But after reading this, I don't think I did. I don't see how you can accept the crime against our country, as though it's something we must have deserved, when you read and watch the affects of it on the victims? How can these be separated? How can this horror ever be justified, on any level, political or otherwise? I'm really struggling to understand your position.
> Mariedear Marie,
please read my response to Wendy, because that explains my position as eloquently as i can handle right now.
i am not a patritoic american.
am i upset that this has happened? yes, very much so. do i feel it viscerally? no. as i posted to Wendy, i don't want to get into any type of political argument. we are posting on PSYCHO-SOCIAL BABBLE, and i am only honestly revealing, somewhat flippantly, embarrassedly, horribly, how i truly feel. as i posted to Wendy, i'm not politcally correct. im' not proud to be an american. i feel we terribly exploit other countries and that most americans are not aware of the extent.
i wish i could feel more for new york, i wish it would make me scream and sob, i wish i wish i i wish i wish i wish i wish
but i don't& i don't lie
maybe i've lost my humanity, as Wendy suggests. in my mind thought, it's just that i can't comprehend: you know how they say no one can comprehend the size/space/time of the universe/cosmos? i can't understand this tragedy because i did not see it firsthand.
again, i want to stress that i wish to offend no one: i'm simply expressing how i feel where i feel it is appropriate.
sincerely,
sar
> > this is what i was trying to post on in an earlier thread, except i think it may have been misinterpreted by a few (i.e., i was discussing my emotional response rather than the crisis on a political, macro level). i feel really disconnected from all of it even though i've an uncle in NYC and another in Alexandria, VA. i just don't know what to think.
> >
> > i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree.
> >
> > i don't support that fatal degree, it's just that i sit here well-fed and pampered enjou=ying varying degrees of liberty while other suffer harsh climates and edgy rocks, tough religion and fright.
> >
> > an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
> >
> > rilly.
> >
> > love,
> >
> > sarthesecretmallrat
Posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 1:59:58
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 1:58:43
Posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 2:07:55
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects-the horror in NY, posted by Krazy Kat on September 28, 2001, at 10:56:10
> > Sar,
>
> > I think I understand to some extent what you're saying - that it's just so far removed from reality for you? It's just that your post is quite instigating.
>
> I wasn't going to post this, but I think I will.
>
> People in Battery Park City are coming back to their apartments and finding body parts. There are body parts on the lower roofs in downtown New York, office furniture and pieces of people's clothing and pieces of them just sitting on top of a building.
>
> Rescue workers are fainting because of exhaustion and because of the stinch. They have to sift through everything to try to find pieces of human flesh that can be identified.
>
> The city is somber and empty. It's as if its heart was ripped out. People are still moving about, but their eyes are vacant.
>
> Taoism has some good ideas re: living in the moment and accepting things you can't change. It does not call on you to ignore strife and tragedy.
>
> - K.dear K.,
i think this message moved me the most. i haven't kept up with the media for a few years. a friend of mine told me that jon stuart of the Daily Show lost it several times afetr one of his first airings after tha ttacks becaus ehis apartment overlooks the trade centers and he could se strewn-about body parts.
if jon stuart could fall apart on TV then i believe that it must be horribly tragic, and i appreciate the understanding nature of your post.
certainly taoism does not call on to ignore. i am scheduled to donate blood this saturday, have contacted my peeps with friends/relatives in the area..i don't know what more i can do. if i could afford to donate money, i would. if they'd fly me out to new tork to dig through the rubble, i would. i feel helpless. disconnected completely.
taosim calls on you to empty yourself in order to fulfill and be fulfilled. i have blood, lots of it, and i'll give as much as they'll let me.
love ya,
sar
Posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 2:12:01
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects-Wendy B, Krazy Kat, posted by Dinah on September 28, 2001, at 11:32:40
the drugs have numbed me a bit.
i just don't feel terrified because--i would love to be bombed. i'm deeply suicidal. i do not value my own life, so how much can i truly value the lives of others? really?
i wouldn't mind dying by terrorist attack.
i feel my suicidal frame of mind makes it more difficult for me to sympathize.
Posted by Dinah on September 29, 2001, at 4:17:56
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects-Dinah, posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 2:12:01
Hi sar,
I do understand all of that, and I'm sorry if that didn't come through in my post. I've felt the emotional numbness and know how awful it feels. In fact, to some extent I still feel it. The sheer magnitude of the tragedy is hard to comprehend. The videos often seem like a bad movie scene. The still photos affect me much more, as did Krazy Kat's description.
I also understand that not wanting to live does make it hard to feel scared. My deepest sympathy lies for those left behind to grieve. I can't imagine what I would do if it were my husband in those towers. I can't imagine what I would tell my son.
I hope that you have a good therapist that you can discuss your feelings with. I've been a mess since this happened, in ways that have seemingly had no connection to the tragedy at all. It seems as if the "sad" and "angry" and "generally upset" doors have all opened and are flooding out all over.
I hope you understand that I wasn't trying to be unsupportive or critical. It's just that this issue is a sensitive one to many people right now (and in different ways). That's why I really didn't want to post about it.
I'm sorry if my post in any way contributed to your distress.
Very sincerely,
Dinah
Posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 11:52:13
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » sar, posted by Dinah on September 29, 2001, at 4:17:56
Dinah,
thank you for your kind understanding. it really pleases and amazes me that you can respnd with such empathy even though you feel completely differently than i do about what is, i agree, a national tragedy.
you did not contribute at all to my distress. it makes me feel a little bit lighter knowing that some understand.
intellectually, i can envision the photos i've seen, feel bad at the sheer magnitude of the numbers of people who died such gruesome deaths, i can think about all of this in my head, it just hasn't travelled down to my heart yet. my stomach only feels bad because i don't feel anything.
thank you.
sincerely,
sar
Posted by Marie1 on September 29, 2001, at 15:47:24
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects » Dinah, posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 11:52:13
Sar,
You are absolutely right - what you wrote in this thread is totally appropriate. You are being honest and open about your feelings. I apologise if I came across as being judgemental (actually I regretted posting as soon as I did. Where's the "undo"??). I was sincerely trying to understand how you felt - I'm a good one for wearing someone else's moccasins. And I think maybe I get it now. It's like how I quit wearing my seatbelt when at the worst in my illness. It's so hard to give a sh*t about anything. And physical proximity probably does count for some emotions. It makes me cry to read of a neighbor I didn't really know who was on the flight that crashed into the Pentagon. I truly don't think I could cope with body parts strewn over my neighborhood. And in all honesty- now don't get mad (:-)- I think age may be a factor here, too. I think as we get older, we hopefully become more compassionate and more aware of the fragility of the short time we spend here. (Please don't take that to be patronizing; I really don't intend it to be.)
Again, I'm sorry that I put you on the spot and that you felt the need to defend yourself. Take care, Sar.
Marie> Dinah,
>
> thank you for your kind understanding. it really pleases and amazes me that you can respnd with such empathy even though you feel completely differently than i do about what is, i agree, a national tragedy.
>
> you did not contribute at all to my distress. it makes me feel a little bit lighter knowing that some understand.
>
> intellectually, i can envision the photos i've seen, feel bad at the sheer magnitude of the numbers of people who died such gruesome deaths, i can think about all of this in my head, it just hasn't travelled down to my heart yet. my stomach only feels bad because i don't feel anything.
>
> thank you.
>
> sincerely,
> sar
Posted by Jane D on September 29, 2001, at 20:21:41
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects-Dinah, posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 2:12:01
> the drugs have numbed me a bit.
>
> i just don't feel terrified because--i would love to be bombed. i'm deeply suicidal. i do not value my own life, so how much can i truly value the lives of others? really?
>
> i wouldn't mind dying by terrorist attack.
>
> i feel my suicidal frame of mind makes it more difficult for me to sympathize.
Sar - I've been wondering when someone would raise this. I didn't have the nerve to do it myself. Over time I've seen people here report being unable to care about friends, relatives, even spouses and get understanding because we all know this is part of the nature of the beast. Why shouldn't the same understanding apply to being unable to care for strangers? I also think fear is a large part of most peoples reactions right now. As soon as it happened I started doing a mental analysis of just how near I lived to any other likely targets (and just how likely they were) and I know I wasn't alone in this. We focus our energy on the things that are the biggest threat to us personally. Not wanting to live is probably a greater risk in your life than terrorist attack. It is in mine. It will also impair your life far more than the loss of privacy, increased security checks or falling economy that others fear will.I wonder if this also ties in to the ongoing stigma attached to mental illness. The stigma on physical disabilities or illnesses* has been successfully attacked by repeating "Look, we're just like you. We value the same things - react the same way". The mentally ill can't always make that claim. How they react may be unpredictable and therefore legitimately frightening. Not people you want backing you up in a tight spot. Therefore stigmatized and shunned as a form of self defense.
Just talking out loud.
Jane
* I am using physical here to describe visible disabilites such as being unable to walk. Not causality.
Posted by Kristi on September 29, 2001, at 21:37:21
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by sar on September 29, 2001, at 1:58:43
Sar,
Your honesty is refreshing... and you definately can't help the way you feel..... you can't make yourself feel something. I also feel very differently than you.... but would never fault you. I admire your courage to write something that I know you know you would have been attacked for. If there is one thing we've learned.... life may be very short for some.... so just in case it's you... or one of us.... be happy. I hate to hear you sound so pained. I really wish I can help. Hang in there.... I need you around. Love, Kristi
> > Sar,
> > I'm assuming I was one of the "few" who misinterpreted your response to our national tragedy in the earlier thread. But after reading this, I don't think I did. I don't see how you can accept the crime against our country, as though it's something we must have deserved, when you read and watch the affects of it on the victims? How can these be separated? How can this horror ever be justified, on any level, political or otherwise? I'm really struggling to understand your position.
> > Marie
>
> dear Marie,
>
> please read my response to Wendy, because that explains my position as eloquently as i can handle right now.
>
> i am not a patritoic american.
>
> am i upset that this has happened? yes, very much so. do i feel it viscerally? no. as i posted to Wendy, i don't want to get into any type of political argument. we are posting on PSYCHO-SOCIAL BABBLE, and i am only honestly revealing, somewhat flippantly, embarrassedly, horribly, how i truly feel. as i posted to Wendy, i'm not politcally correct. im' not proud to be an american. i feel we terribly exploit other countries and that most americans are not aware of the extent.
>
> i wish i could feel more for new york, i wish it would make me scream and sob, i wish i wish i i wish i wish i wish i wish
>
>
> but i don't
>
> & i don't lie
>
> maybe i've lost my humanity, as Wendy suggests. in my mind thought, it's just that i can't comprehend: you know how they say no one can comprehend the size/space/time of the universe/cosmos? i can't understand this tragedy because i did not see it firsthand.
>
> again, i want to stress that i wish to offend no one: i'm simply expressing how i feel where i feel it is appropriate.
>
> sincerely,
> sar
>
>
> > > this is what i was trying to post on in an earlier thread, except i think it may have been misinterpreted by a few (i.e., i was discussing my emotional response rather than the crisis on a political, macro level). i feel really disconnected from all of it even though i've an uncle in NYC and another in Alexandria, VA. i just don't know what to think.
> > >
> > > i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree.
> > >
> > > i don't support that fatal degree, it's just that i sit here well-fed and pampered enjou=ying varying degrees of liberty while other suffer harsh climates and edgy rocks, tough religion and fright.
> > >
> > > an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
> > >
> > > rilly.
> > >
> > > love,
> > >
> > > sarthesecretmallrat
Posted by galtin on September 30, 2001, at 0:43:55
In reply to Re: Terror's emotional effects, posted by sar on September 26, 2001, at 2:11:46
> this is what i was trying to post on in an earlier thread, except i think it may have been misinterpreted by a few (i.e., i was discussing my emotional response rather than the crisis on a political, macro level). i feel really disconnected from all of it even though i've an uncle in NYC and another in Alexandria, VA. i just don't know what to think.
>
> i don't think anyone deserved to die, god no, but my own personal emotional take onit is that the U.S . is dominant, exploitative, and i can underatnd how other countries would resent that to a fatal degree.
>
> i don't support that fatal degree, it's just that i sit here well-fed and pampered enjou=ying varying degrees of liberty while other suffer harsh climates and edgy rocks, tough religion and fright.
>
> an emotional level? it has not hit me yet. really i don't think it will until i'm unable to afford shopping at the mall anymore.
>
> rilly.
>
> love,
>
> sarthesecretmallratsar- It is hard for me to take in the "World Trade Center Tragedy" but am deeply saddened when I read about particular individuals who died. Is this a character defect? Maybe. But maybe it's also due to everybody talking too much (as I prattle on). And I find what people talk about often distracting and unsettling.
For example, I have heard scores of people pronounce that "nothing will ever be the same." I suppose we could debate the meaning of "nothing," but on a common sense level these assertions are silly. Sure, some things will change--airport security, access by care into NYC, people's sense of vulnerability. But these and other changes will either will eventually melt into "normalcy." But deeper changes in our national psyche, in our acquisitive nature, in our reliance on the estimation of others for our self-worth, in our frequent selfishness? History provides us with overwhelming evidence that none of this will change. Sure, there is going to be alot of self-congratulatory talk about how courageous, generous and relilient we Americans are. And it is true, sometimes. But by talking so damn much about it we suffocate the actual experience of being these things and substitute the surreal experience of hearing others and ourselves talk about it. Same with the tragedy itself. After awhile all the palaver, esp. on TV overshadows the tragedy itself and the almost unbearable sad fates of so many people. With our penchant for the overdramatization of our own reactions we dishonor those who died and those who will be without them.
And after all this self-inspection we will eventually wake up to realize that very little has changed. Maybe one of the reasons behind so much talk is that many Americans don't realize the this and far, far worse has happened innumerable times in the course of history. In the past year or two alone, tens of thousands have lost their lives to brutality and butchery.
In fact, we have mostly forgotten the ultimate lesson of the Titanic, the sinking of which produced a national crisis of confidence and a conflagration of soul-searching and "reprioritizing." What came of it all? Was everything changed forever?This recent disaster is a tragedy partly because untimately nothing redemptive or transforming will come of it. 99.9% of us will drift back into the ebb and flow of our lives and concerns.
What I am increasingly hearing is little in the way of sadness for the victims and much more in the way of a focus on our own feelings. And so, once again, the real topic of concern is. . . me. Yesterday I heard a person talk in excrutiating detail about her cousin's boyfriends, step-brothers uncle's angle of vision from New Jersey as the Twin Towers came down. I hear this stuff all the time. Along with the wearying platitudes about all evil giving birth to good, God bringing meaning from tragedy and other confidently stated certainties about what it all means. There is no ultimate meaning that redeems the loss of 6,000 lives. The world we live in is(was, and will be) subject to the passions of evil, the disinterest of the self-absorbed, our love of overdramatization, and to the impossibility of a perfect freedom from calamity and fear.
Maybe all it means is that like every century of human existence there are evil people around to provide fleeting reminders that we are always vulnerable, from attacks without and certainly from attacks that come from deep within ourselves.
I know that this is somewhat exaggerated. I know that many people have genuine feelings of sorrow and horror. These feelings have unassailable authenticity. They would be more ennobled if we quit talking about them and quit trying draw some lesson for life from it all.
Now I will try out my own entreaty, and shut up.
galtin
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.