![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 59 to 83 of 84. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 28, 2004, at 9:39:17
In reply to I did it again before i read dr bob e mail sorry, posted by so far so good on June 27, 2004, at 22:02:44
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 28, 2004, at 9:42:23
In reply to That's Nice » so far so good, posted by Chuckie on June 27, 2004, at 16:10:35
> your unconcerned and unresearched opinions.
>
> you're not nicePlease don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Sharing something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Chuckie on July 5, 2004, at 11:39:18
In reply to Re: please be civil » Chuckie, posted by Dr. Bob on June 28, 2004, at 9:42:23
That's nice how you showed concern for his feelings like that. Now what about mine? I had to defend my own self when he made /me/ feel put down and accused. Now you put me down and accuse me for defending myself.
Read his post... by his own words he doesn't care about what i had to say, and so he wasn't going to bother looking into it. So by his own words his opinions were unconcerned and unresearched. And he /wasn't/ wasn't nice about it.
Is that how one gets away with putting people down around here? So from now on i should couch negative comments in sarcasm so that there's nothing for the moderator to quote?
Bleh. I say what i mean.
- Chuckie
Posted by arrie on July 5, 2004, at 18:57:52
In reply to What? » Dr. Bob, posted by Chuckie on July 5, 2004, at 11:39:18
Chuckie, relax everyone myself included gets that message from Dr Bob, come one come all, its sort of like being part of the gang, I think.
How are you getting along? Are you still on the Bup, sorry if I have asked you before, seems to me you should still be on since it has not been that long, bring me up to date if you can. Does it help with depression like the opiates you were taking? My appt is thurs so I am coming up on it. How many hours were you into withdrawl when you went in, they say 12 hours is Ok, but that doesnt put much distance between the two. Please try to not get miffed at sofar (or me) we are suppose to be helping each other here. Take care Chuckie
Posted by Chuckie on July 5, 2004, at 19:23:14
In reply to Re: What?, posted by arrie on July 5, 2004, at 18:57:52
If everyone gets it i guess i don't feel so bad, but sofar their should've got it too.
I'm still at 16mg/day though still intending to taper. 8mg/day would be a good thing; 4 would be even better. I've heard enough to have confidence that i can do that. When i get down to 8mg i'm gonna have my Doc give me 2mg tabs, (i think they have those?) or 1mg if there is such a thing. I'd like to regulate it like i do the clonazapam, i.e. maintaining a balance. It's hard to bust up these 8mg tabs; they're crumbly because they're for sublingual dissolving. You might mind that... i lost two days worth last month because the pilss disintegrated in the bottle. It's a good thing i had a few extra.
I waited twentyfour hours for my medication because i really didn't know what i was supposed to do. It wasn't that bad though, i mean i just had like a touch of the flu and i was shaky, but i was fine almost immediately after taking the Bupe.
I think it's a good medicine, i just need to adjust to it and vice versa. Are you taking to taper off or for maintenance?
- Chuckie
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 5, 2004, at 23:18:58
In reply to Re: please be civil » Chuckie, posted by Dr. Bob on June 28, 2004, at 9:42:23
> If you have any ... comments about this ... please ... redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040527/msgs/363345.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by arrie on July 5, 2004, at 23:57:56
In reply to OK » arrie, posted by Chuckie on July 5, 2004, at 19:23:14
Chuckie, I think its undecided right now. I guess we will say I want to take it to do a long taper. I am reading quite a bit on some other sites accounts from those on Bup for maintainence. Beware here, less is more with this drug. Do not let it get its hooks into you or you will be back to square one. In other words, have a plan for reduction, stay strong and the war is not over.
Posted by Chuckie on July 6, 2004, at 7:59:57
In reply to Re: OK, posted by arrie on July 5, 2004, at 23:57:56
> Beware here, less is more with this drug.
> Do not let it get its hooks into you or you will be
> back to square one.Whatsat mean? What are you reading, and where? Sounds bad... But i need to know specifically what means "less is more" because i intend to take less.
Other than that i don't know what's the difference which drug has its hooks into me. At least this one is legal.
-Chuckie
Posted by so far so good on July 6, 2004, at 8:16:13
In reply to OK » arrie, posted by Chuckie on July 5, 2004, at 19:23:14
I have resisted writing this for a while but I must get it out. I promise there will be no more responses to others negativity.Chuck how can you decide who has posted the "complete and most informative bupe threads? You havent any idea of what pills/mgs or general ingredients or dosages of the "poppy tea" you were taking."The fat ones".Please if your problem is not addiction to opiates then post your bupe info elswere. It may be misleading to others, if you are taking it for a different reason ie. deppression,and its working for you or whatever. I gave a detailed description of a scenario of a pt. (me) whos main goal was to get opiate free.Thats what this forum is for "substance abuse ".People that are seeking subutex/suboxone info in this forum are wanting to know about bupe for opiate dependency.Thats what I brought to the table . Not some one that felt" a little crummy when they didnt have there tea".It sounds like you were feeling crummy even with your tae .My info is from some one that for several years,couldnt get through the day w/o opiates.When I didint have them alls I did was think about howwhen and were I could get them .
Posted by Chuckie on July 6, 2004, at 8:27:56
In reply to last time chuck /i wish you well, posted by so far so good on July 6, 2004, at 8:16:13
Posted by Chuckie on July 6, 2004, at 10:45:14
In reply to last time chuck /i wish you well, posted by so far so good on July 6, 2004, at 8:16:13
Please excuse my outburst.
1) I never said anything about the "complete and most informative bupe threads" and i don't think anyone else has, so i don't understand the purpose of the quotation marks. Please explain.
2) I don't understand why you call attention to my chemical ignorance. Questions are part of discussion, and in my situation it is necessary to sort out relative dosages and quantities. The doctor i saw apparently didn't know how to equate quantities of the different substances either. Please explain why you brought that up without offering helpful observations?
3) My problem /is/ opiate dependency. Depression is tangential to that problem. Sure "thread drift" can be confusing, but this wasn't very far off subject. The evidence is that many, many people with opiate dependence got that way because the substance alleviates their depression. Given that fact, i think it would be extraordinarilly helpful to explore the connection, because if it were understood better it could lead to more appropriate medications and/or medication regimens. E.g. maybe the drug companies could invent an opiate-based medication that doesn't cause dependence. Or in the interim, depression could be treated in appropriate cases with more benign substances. Many people have had their depression alleviated with tramadol, which is a synthetic opioid with a low abuse potential. Please explain why you treat the whole subject with ridicule?
4) >>Not some one that felt" a little crummy when they didnt have there tea".<<
That isn't what i said, so it's not a quote, so what is the purpose of the quotation marks, again?As i said, this issue is huge. I told you that i could provide lots and lots of reference material for you to research, and you said you're not interested. If you're not interested, then please don't belittle the issue. Furthermore, if you don't wish to research the issue then please don't belittle me for offering opinions based on the research that i /have/ done.
And please stop saying "please" in a derisive manner.
Thank You,
-Chuckie
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 6, 2004, at 18:54:25
In reply to last time chuck /i wish you well, posted by so far so good on July 6, 2004, at 8:16:13
> You havent any idea of what pills/mgs or general ingredients or dosages of the "poppy tea" you were taking.
Please don't jump to conclusions about others or post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Sharing something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by arrie on July 6, 2004, at 19:27:39
In reply to MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP, posted by sofarsogood on June 20, 2004, at 20:42:03
SOFAR, THANKS FOR SHARING, I SEE NOTHING REMOTELY OFFENSIVE IN YOUR POSTS, MAYBE TIME FOR THIS THREAD TO END, THINK ITS SERVED ITS PURPOSE. THANKS
Posted by so far so good on July 15, 2004, at 15:53:57
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP, posted by arrie on July 6, 2004, at 19:27:39
Curious to know if you started the bupe.
Posted by arrie on July 15, 2004, at 22:34:45
In reply to ARRIE. How did you make out on the 9th ?, posted by so far so good on July 15, 2004, at 15:53:57
hey, so far, thx for asking. i am ok, it is now almost a week since first dose, i am at 8 mg a day. going to start a taper down starting tomorrow and try to be off completely in a few week. i am confused really about how long to stay on, but from another board am reading some pretty scarey stuff regarding long term therapy, like you can feel anesthesia when you need it , ha no thank you. i had a half dozen anxiety attacks on the trip, was glad to be back home. how are u?
Posted by arrie on July 17, 2004, at 12:34:16
In reply to MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP, posted by sofarsogood on June 20, 2004, at 20:42:03
Hey sofar, just read your story again, it really inspires me. How are you doing, whats new are you staying the course? I told ya I am on 8 mg a day now, really confused about when to get off, some people say dont go past 10 days on it. If you have time would ya sort of post an outline of how ya dosed over the three months since it worked for you. I feel pretty good, really nice not waking up in WD, if anything this stuff makes me sleepy. Oh ps, watch it on mixing benzos with Sub, can cause death, keep it very low. Take care arrie
Posted by Geno on July 18, 2004, at 0:45:17
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine - Thanks! And..., posted by bupe_fan on May 4, 2004, at 22:21:48
hi, my name is geno, i just found this forum on psychobabble. Seems very iteresting, then i seen buprenorphine and i must add a few comments.
Iv been on suboxone for 4 months now.Almost 5 in august. I started at 3 8mg a day. I told my doc i did a bit more that i was doing, but basically my average use was 6 bags of h intranasally or 6 oxy 40s a day for the last 6 months.
After taking 8mg, i felt all withdrawls subside afer 1 hr. DId not feel high but normal. So for that month, i stayed on 24mg a day. I could have functioned well on 16mg, but mentally i thought i needed it. Now,to date, im perscribed 16mg daily. Here is where some bad experiences happened. I got some cravings and relapsed 2 times while on bup. I did not get high. I actually timed myself one time and it took approx 30hrs a minimum to feel a good bag. Anyway, for example, if i stopped my bup dose purposly to use, it would be at night, then the next day sleep all day, then the next night use. By the following day, which would be like 36 hr , id be starting to feel the dope again. Then i went on a binge for 2 weeks. I dont know why im sharing this, but im being honest, i did sell many of my pills just to get some h. or oxy. BUT i learned finally from my mistakes its not worth it.
I then found out that a buddy of mine has naltraxone implant, which blocks opiates. Well little ol smart me told him about bup and he said he wants to try it. well he got high from like 2 or 3 pills. Now hes wants bup so bad, hed pay 10 bucks a pill if so. Because naltraxone does not block burenorphine.
Anyway, i leaned my lesson, becuase i ran out of buprenorphine 7 days before my appt. I went through 6 days of hell. The withdrawls seemed worse than heroin or just as bad, but not as bad as oxys. Now i keep an exact list of how many i have and when my appt is. Im actually trying to stay/cut down to 8mg a day, which i know would work, because i havent done that many opiates in like 2 months ago when i relapsed.
Sometimes, i get a twinkling of a buzz, but it may be from my other meds. Now i will explain what my doctor perscribed me.
Iv tried so many medications, even when i was clean, from SSRI's to TCI's, now im actually slowely researching natural supplements and noortropics. Anyway, my doctor gave me an add test because he thought from what i told him i may have add and he told me alot of drug addicts have some form of add. I must have "failed the test" and i was persrcibed adderall. After starting adderall, i noticed a big difference in motivation, focus, and just basically doing things that normally i would have to use to do.
Im currently perscribed 20mg 2x daily. Yes i know adderall can be addictive, but i dont seem to get high from it, just i feel more mentally sociable, i can do research on my computer for hours where in the past 1 hr tops. It does give me a bit of a mood lift. I also suffer from depression and anxiety so, im taking Klonopin which eliminated the anxiety caused by adderall. This combo for me works very good. I stopped taking ssri's and im taking a few natural substances such as 5htp, Same, Fish oils, Rhodia rosia, and a few others. There are so many herbs, botanicals, adaptogens, supplements and amino acids that can be utilized and get the brain back into gear. My goal now is to slowely eliminate 1 med at a time, replacing it with a natural means. I imagine suboxone will be last, because it does help alot and im afraid if i taper off it, ill get cravings and relapse.I will post more on Buprenorphine, other drugs and natural drugs. I have alot of information that may be usefull to some.
Oh by the way, i know that some people with think that because im taking adderall and klonopin im still "using and trying to get high." Well, just to say, i take them as perscribed, i get no where near the high like opiates, just fell more well being at times. If i even took too much adderall, id go into a panic attack, and if i took to much klonopin, id feel like a rubber band. So, the dosees im taking are perfect so far and all meds work synergistically it seems with one another.
geno
Posted by arrie on July 18, 2004, at 14:16:04
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine - Thanks! And..., posted by Geno on July 18, 2004, at 0:45:17
Geno, please stay on course. I am serious about a recovery. I have no desire to switch meds around, sell them, do street drugs or anything else. You are only kidding yourself, stop chasing the highs. Bup is a serious medicine, meant to help you detox, you need to taper it down and get off it asap. It is very potent. You need to respect it and quit trading it off for herion when the mood hits you. You are going to pay in the end not the bup. Sorry to take such a hard line with you, but these drugs are not candy-ok.
Posted by arrie on July 18, 2004, at 17:01:12
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine - Thanks! And..., posted by arrie on July 18, 2004, at 14:16:04
I think you may be interested, or find some help on this site, www.herion-detox.com, read some of the stories on this site and you will be able to understand why I posted what I did you. Good luck
Posted by Wren9 on August 4, 2004, at 18:29:25
In reply to Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUPE 2 THUMBS UP » arrie, posted by Chuckie on June 22, 2004, at 20:43:31
Hope you don't mind my jumping in...
A couple years ago I was taking about 3 Norco/day (= 30 mg. hydrocodone). At that time, I had in my possession a good amount of Temgesic sublingual tablets, which contain 0.2 mg of buprenorphine (yes, that is 0.2 mg, not 2 mg). When I would run out of Norco, I would supplement with the Temgesic in order to avoid withdrawal. My first time taking them, I let one 0.2 mg tablet disolve under my tongue. I waited half an hour and didn't feel anything. So I took another 0.2 mg tablet. Woah, was I in for a surprise. I quickly learned that it takes a full hour for the bup to kick in all the way. I was knocked for a loop! I tried to smoke a cig and I almost vomited. I felt so nauseated...it was like being high (on dope) but without the good feelings. I felt so sick, I had to lie in bed. Once in bed, I felt ok, not nauseated anymore. I was really "noddy" and was acting high. I had my hand raised in the air for no reason. I felt out of it. For me, it was NOT an enjoyable experience at all! After that one experience of taking too much bup, I found a better dose for me. All I needed was one 0.2 mg tab in order to avoid withdrawal. Sometimes I would take 0.2 mg in the AM, and 0.1 mg (1/2 tab) in the afternoon. But I still looked forward to resuming my normal meds (Norco).
I relate this story for two reasons. 1. I think it shows how strong bup can be at very low (in milligrams) doses. Even for someone with a tolerance (albeit a small one). My daily dose of 30 mg of hydrocodone was about equal to 0.3 mg of bup in terms of preventing withdrawal. It also demonstrates the principle of "less is more," an expression we hear frequently with regard to bup. At a too-high dose I was "high" (better term might be overmedicated) but not in a good way. At the right dose, I felt fine, pretty much normal. 2. The second reason I relate this story is to address "wait times" going from hydrocodone to bup and vice versa. I did not need to be in withdrawal in order to start bup. I would switch back and forth between Norco and bup with ease. The only effect I noticed is that it would take a few hours (12+) for the bup to clear out before I could start feeling the Norco again. So that if I took Bup on a given day, I would not be able to feel the Norco if I took it on the same day, but I would feel the Norco if I took it the next morning. A word of caution though, wait times ARE important depending on what kind and what dose of opiates you are switching from. I was on a fairly low dose of short-acting opiates. I have heard horror stories of people switching from 100 mg methadone (a very long-acting opioid) to bup, even though they waited approx 48 hours in between. There was enough methadone still in their receptors that they were sent into further withdrawal by the bup's antagonist effect. Not fun!
Wren
> I'm confused about your dosages. Or mine, or something. Aren't the big fat Vicodins 750mgs? And i thought the regular ones were 500mgs?
>
> I told the doc my poppy habit was approximately equal to four big fat vics per day. That was after detox, when i was trying to keep it contained. Before detox i don't have any idea... six... ten? I could easily take that many vics without a problem.
>
> Anyway, what i told him is what he translated into the 16mgs/day of bupe. Which i now come to find out is a pretty hefty dosage, although i think the max is 32mgs. In any case, i'm sure i'll be fine when i taper back to 8mgs, and i think you would be too.
>
> Someone else around here was taking two or three mgs and being OK with that. So i'm gonna keep tapering until i get too uncomfy.
>
> -Chuckie
Posted by Erica22 on September 2, 2004, at 6:14:30
In reply to BUP EXPERIENCE / Re: MEDICATION ASSISTED W/D W/BUP, posted by Wren9 on August 4, 2004, at 18:29:25
11
Posted by Maxchops on October 4, 2004, at 19:22:42
In reply to Re: OK, posted by arrie on July 5, 2004, at 23:57:56
Ok you guys have all talked about how the bupe is supposedly working and everything. One thing I dont understand (and maybe I missed a RE: here or there) is how does the bupe physically and mentally make u feel? Do uy staart taking it and then BAM all the sudden the pains and aches and stomach irritability - physical and mental irritibality and depression just disappear? Cause I have been trying to kick Vicodin on and off for about a year, more recently trying a lot harder in the past couple weeks. But If i am going to be paying that much for bupe medication and it doesnt start supposedly working for eg. 7-10 days then by then the worst is pretty much passed. Yes in the long run it might be beneficial from helping you relapse (which would be great). The first initial days are the damn hardest and going thru all the pain just is unbearable sometimes... so tell me how the actuality of the medication is... I am way curious cuase I am tired of this destructive cycle... hope you guys are doing well.. and still checking this forum, Its been a while since you started!
Posted by Chuckie on October 5, 2004, at 0:34:06
In reply to Re: OK, posted by Maxchops on October 4, 2004, at 19:22:42
>> Do uy staart taking it and then BAM all the sudden the pains and aches and stomach irritability - physical and mental irritibality and depression just disappear? <<
Yup, pretty much. For me, anyway.
As far as how it makes you feel, i guess it depends on you and your current habit and your dosage. So, it just depends. I don't 'feel' much of anything from it, i just feel normal. And no cravings.
It works almost immediately. And it's hard to have a relapse... if you really want to have a relapse then you have to plan for it and wait for the bupe to wear off, else your drugs won't work. Which is part of the point.
Others here are taking it for the purpose of tapering off, and they may have accomplished that by now, so this is a good place to ask if that's what you're wanting to do.
Me, i don't care. Other than the cost, it doesn't cause me any trouble, and i don't get in any trouble, so i'm happy for now.
Posted by arrie on October 5, 2004, at 14:57:01
In reply to Re: OK, posted by Maxchops on October 4, 2004, at 19:22:42
IT WORKS GREAT, AND IT WORKS IMMEDIATELY, GO FOR IT, I HAVE BEEN ON FOR 3 MONTHS DOING A VERY SLOW TAPER OFF NOW THAT I HAVE COMPLETELY STABALIZED, IT IS WELL WORTH THE MONEY, A GODSEND IF YOU CANT HACK WD. GOOD LUCK
Posted by Maxchops on October 7, 2004, at 17:14:09
In reply to Re: OK » Maxchops, posted by arrie on October 5, 2004, at 14:57:01
Ok, one more question... sorry if I am reitterating anything that has already been reviewed... but you say you are tapering off... of the vicodin or the bupe? Cause everything I have read and come to believe - like chuckie said - you cant really even relapse even if you wanted to because the bupe's block the opioid receptors... so let me know some details if you can... and also how much are u currently paying for the bupe's? what area of the country are you located in? Cause I think your area also might effect the pricing... and does your insurance cover any of it? Cause I have no insurance... And sometimes Rx's cost a lot of money without it... so Thanks for all the help and for sharing your trials and tribulations... I appreciate it... It's great to know I am not the only idiot (lol) out there...
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Substance Use | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.