![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 72. Go back in thread:
Posted by Adam on January 27, 2000, at 23:38:21
In reply to Religion and Depression, posted by Cass on January 27, 2000, at 19:31:39
Hey, Cass,
I think your goal of finding a sense of community and structure is a superb one. I often wish I had more of that too. I guess it would be contrary to the teachings of the faith to evangelize in any way, and I am myself not a practitioner in any disciplined sense, but have you ever considered Buddhist teachings and communities?
I think I may be in a similar position as you in that I tend to regard most religions, Eastern and Western, as containing various dogmatic and mutually exclusive elements that are, again in my oppinion, chauvinistic and destructive in nature. I've also found that all sincere attempts at ecumenicalism lead to such a dissolution of the tenents of a given faith as to render it nearly unrecognizable and meaningless. In that respect I find I almost understand fundamentalists more than your average liberal "believer". The fundamentalist at least seems to have some concept of God(s) and Truth that can be firmly grasped, and weather or not I find their views disturbing or disgusting, I know where they stand, and they know what their faith means.
I like a lot of things about Buddhist teachings. It's really not correct to call it a religion, I think, but rather an ethos or economy in the truest sense of those words. Those teachings take a certain level of ambiguity for granted, and don't present the practitioner with rigid doctrines or commandments but rather guidelines that one can absorb and implement as much as one is ready for. There isn't even a strict sense of right or wrong or "sin"; rather, a persons actions are considered inept or adept. One who is inept brings about his or her own suffering and the suffering of others. One who is adept is learing or has learned to escape that practice.
Suffering is the main thing that Buddhism seems to be focused on, both its causes and its cures. The buddha put forth four essential concepts (the "Noble Truths"), and one need truly understand these only to be on the road to health: All life or existance is a state of suffering, this suffering stems from desire, there is an end to suffering, and that end is to follow the Eightfold Way (to exercise right thought, right action, and a bunch of other "rights" I can't remember!) You learn to dissociate yourself from what's hurting you the most (which is clinging to an illusion of permanence and health when all is in fact flux and illness) and focus mostly on being wise and compassionate.
It seemed awfully pessimistic and depressing when I first learned about it in school, this whole concept that we were sick and the only way to get better was to achieve a state of total unbeing, but you learn what it means to suffer and it starts to make a lot of sense. It's not about hating the world or seeing everything as harmful and diseased. It's more about accepting that nothing in the world stays the same for very long, that no hunger can truly be satisfied in the end, and the best you can do is be kind to yourself and others. Part of that kindness is a measured state of detachment; not apathy, but a healthier awareness informed by the conviction that the only way to live well is to let go. I also figured that a true buddhist community (sangha) would be filled mostly with dour ascetics spending all their time meditating and avaoiding anything that smacked of fun, but the reality of most such communities is quite the opposite. Buddhists I've met who are true practitioners have been some of the most vibrant and optimistic people I've encountered, and their faith (or I would rather say, their practice) seems to give them a sanity and equanimity I can't help but admire.
I still have difficulty with some concepts in buddhism, especially those that enter the metaphysical realm (the nature of karma, transmigration of souls and so on), but the beauty of it is one is not expected to buy it all. It's built into the system of beleifs (at least the basic tenants of therevada, or "old school" buddhism) that you take on as much as you can handle, so no one would dispute with you that there are souls or demons or reincarnations or anything else. That's not the point. The point is to get on the path and follow it where it takes you.
I have a feeling this may be something I will explore more, both for my emotional health, and because many sanghas are actively involved with humanitarian causes in, as I mentioned far above, a totally non-evangelical way. It's the focus on helping others which, I guess (and this may be somewhat selfish in motivation, and perhaps not in the true spirit) is what everyone says is the healthiest and happiest thing you can do: make someone elses life better for no other reason than to increase happiness all around. The few times I have done charity work, even when it felt like an excercise, I always came away feeling a bit better. If someone else benefits to, I suppose there's no harm in that.
It's true: buddhism defers to no higher power. No god will help you find salvation; you have to do that yourself, maybe by following some of the buddha's suggestions. But you aren't expected to be alone, until you are ready to be.
> I have developed a "save my life plan." Part I is seeing a pdoc and reanalyzing my medication needs. Part II is submitting to a "higher power." Sorry if I sound trite. I have never liked organized religion, but I'm desperate and perhaps I have been wrong in thinking that all organized religion is destructive. The structure and support of a church may be benificial to me. I believe in God because I sense it in myself and in Nature. I need something to reinforce that feeling. I don't want to go to an evangelical or to a rigid church. I don't like religion that cultivates narrow-mindedness or intolerance. So far, I'm looking into Untitarian and Methodist churches. Any feedback is welcome!!!
Posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 0:19:58
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by Adam on January 27, 2000, at 23:38:21
I just did a very, quick scan of Adam's comments and noted the focus on Buddhism. A few quick comments. Lots of links between Buddhism and psychotherapy. Some good books on such written by Alan Watts and Mark Epstein (Going to Pieces Without Falling Apart).
In Vancouver there are something like 50 or so flavours of Buddhism, from more conservative to less. Peter Matthiesen writes well about some of these distinctions in a book about a search for the Snow Leopard in Tibet. Many excellent books written by American Buddhists, which are usually nicely polished gems.
The core of buddhism is, as Adam indicated, how to let go of suffering by recognizing it is based on one's graspings for this or that, and to learn how to recongize when one is doing this and how to not do so.
Throughout North America there are Shambalha Centres based on a mix of tibetan buddhism and other streams. HQ is in Halifax, Nova Scotia, used to be in Denver. Very good influence on the community there. These are communnity run and offer free intro. into a simple meditative technique and a space to pursue the same with others as well as some interesting discussion of principles. By donation. Great atmosphere, generally, very ecunemical -- adherents come from many religiious traditions, including judaism, catholism -- some still practice such and are not contradicted by buddhism which is very accepting and down to earth, generally, though it has its fringe groups as with any philosophy.
Posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 2:53:37
In reply to Religion and Depression, posted by Cass on January 27, 2000, at 19:31:39
Be careful what "higher power" you submit to. Christianity has been very helpful in my recovery from mental illness. I go to an Episcopalian Church. If you just want to socialize maybe a support group would be better for you. If you have no interest in the doctrine of the Church your needs would probably be served better somewhere else. I think it is foolish to go seeking this "higher power" with a devil may care attitude. Our Church is tolerant, well educated, and has a fairly structured approach to worship. You would be welcome at our Church but if you have no sincerity about seeking Christ you probably don't belong here. I know this is politically incorrect but Christianity does not acknowledge the validity of any other faith.
Posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 10:26:52
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 2:53:37
It's not a question of political correcteness. It's more the fact that, that viewpoint is presumptive bs, based on narrow minded thinking and ignorance. Christ would be open to other points of view, it's his so-called disciples that are too often narrow of mind and practice, as also happens with other so-called religions. Narrow minded dogma is used as an excuse for bigoted views.
True Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, etc. are not those who go on bended knee to church or temple. Rather it's those who walk the walk and don't just talk the talk.
> I know this is politically incorrect but Christianity does not acknowledge the validity of any other faith.
Posted by dove on January 28, 2000, at 11:32:34
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 10:26:52
Jesus came to heal the sick, the blind, the broken-hearted. His kingdom was not born of this material world, but of the spiritual. Any Christian church with the heart, spirit and love of Christ should welcome you, even if you don't buy the dogma, doctrine, rituals, or traditions. Who is Christ, if not the Son of God born of flesh, and who is God, if not the Father, and who is the Spirit, if not the Comforter. Every aspect, the three profiles, of God reflect healing, love, nurturing, and life.
I wage an inner battle, a battle of mind against my heart and against my spiritual soul. I feel like a failure as a follower of Christ, in large part, due to my depression. I'm afraid to share my beliefs because my life doesn't display this neat/clean, content/happy scrupulous morality. I know God heals the broken-hearted, the depressed, but I'm still here struggling. I would never dream of placing those same values on someone else. I would explain that Christ gave us doctors, chemicals, minds, in order to heal. But, in regard to myself, I always feel like I've somehow failed, and my walk is so bumpy how can anyone follow where it leads?
I wish the I was braver, I wish I could speak with the heart of Christ. I know God cares deeply for His creations, and I know that the laws and commandments he made are much more than don't do this and don't do that. Those commandments serve to protect us, our fragile hearts and our fragile minds. We harm ourselves and others so often, and looking back on my own life, I see numerous, uncountable, instances where if I had followed the guidelines of God, I would have saved everyone, including me, a lot of pain.
Jesus gave his heart and his life to those in the most need. The Bible clearly states his calling and his purpose, and no church should ever withdraw their love and fellowship from one who is outside the "church". Jesus was no respecter of men, no titles, race, wealth, social standings, class, good-works, evil-deeds, clouded his purpose. He went to those in need and to those who were searching. What more can any christian say or do?
dove
Posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 12:29:06
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression (Long), posted by dove on January 28, 2000, at 11:32:34
> He went to those in need and to those who were searching. What more can any christian say or do?
>
> doveWell written and eloquently stated, Dove, as always. As someone who was brought up in a staunchily Catholic household and named after a Catholic priest I see the value of religion to some. Personally I'm an agonostic and all spiritual traditions speak to me, when their compasson shows through (as it does with you) and not their dogma, which is the root of all evils, imho.
For those who are not narrow in their spiritual search Huston Smith's wonderfully written book, "The World's Religions" explores the core commonalities of compassion, that are at the heart of all true seeking.
St. Francis of Assissi who was a true seeker is quoted as having stated that: "Rather than walk a mile to preach, let my walking be my preaching". If you've never seen the movie 'Brother Sun, Sister Moon' about his life, seek it out at the video emporium as it's a gem.
Also for true seekers the writings of Vietnam's Thich Nhat Hanh also beautifully illuminate core linkages between spiritul traditions. For example:
"Living Buddha, Living Christ"
by Nh at Hanh, Thich Nhat Hanh, Elaine Pagels (Introduction), David Steindl-Rast"Book Description
Academy Award winner Ben Kingsley reads Nobel Peace Prize nominee Thich Nhat Hanh's inspiring masterpiece."When you are a truly happy Christian, you are also a Buddhist. And vice versa."
-- Thich Nhat HanhBuddha and Christ, perhaps the two most pivotal figures in the history of humankind, each left behind a legacy of teachings and practices that have shaped the lives of billions of people over the course of two millenia. If they were to meet on the road today, what would each think of the other's spiritual views and practices?
The bestselling author of Peace is Every Step, and one of the most beloved Buddhist teachers in the West, Vietnamese monk Thich Nhat Hanh has been part of a decades-long dialogue between the two greatest living contemplative traditions, and brings to Christianity an appreciation of its beauty that could be conveyed only by an outsider. In a lucid, meditative prose, he explores the crossroads of compassion and holiness at which the two traditions meet, and reawakens our understanding of both. "On the altar in my hermitage," he says, "are images of Buddha and Jesus, and I touch both of them as my spiritual ancestors." --This text refers to the audio cassette edition of this title"
Posted by Stacy on January 28, 2000, at 13:03:48
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression (Long), posted by dove on January 28, 2000, at 11:32:34
> Jesus came to heal the sick, the blind, the broken-hearted. His kingdom was not born of this material world, but of the spiritual. Any Christian church with the heart, spirit and love of Christ should welcome you, even if you don't buy the dogma, doctrine, rituals, or traditions. Who is Christ, if not the Son of God born of flesh, and who is God, if not the Father, and who is the Spirit, if not the Comforter. Every aspect, the three profiles, of God reflect healing, love, nurturing, and life.
>
> I wage an inner battle, a battle of mind against my heart and against my spiritual soul. I feel like a failure as a follower of Christ, in large part, due to my depression. I'm afraid to share my beliefs because my life doesn't display this neat/clean, content/happy scrupulous morality. I know God heals the broken-hearted, the depressed, but I'm still here struggling. I would never dream of placing those same values on someone else. I would explain that Christ gave us doctors, chemicals, minds, in order to heal. But, in regard to myself, I always feel like I've somehow failed, and my walk is so bumpy how can anyone follow where it leads?
>
> I wish the I was braver, I wish I could speak with the heart of Christ. I know God cares deeply for His creations, and I know that the laws and commandments he made are much more than don't do this and don't do that. Those commandments serve to protect us, our fragile hearts and our fragile minds. We harm ourselves and others so often, and looking back on my own life, I see numerous, uncountable, instances where if I had followed the guidelines of God, I would have saved everyone, including me, a lot of pain.
>
> Jesus gave his heart and his life to those in the most need. The Bible clearly states his calling and his purpose, and no church should ever withdraw their love and fellowship from one who is outside the "church". Jesus was no respecter of men, no titles, race, wealth, social standings, class, good-works, evil-deeds, clouded his purpose. He went to those in need and to those who were searching. What more can any christian say or do?
>
> doveHi dove -
Silly me! I didn't even see the post about "Religion & depression" on this page, & started a new post about it below.
That was well said; but please don't feel like a failure (the Bible also states that all have fallen short of God's glory, & that Jesus didn't come into this world to condemn it.) You've made a lot of good points! I think if more people (Christians included) tried to "love their neighbor as themselves" & would "do unto others as they would want it to be done unto them," the world would be a better place.
Take care!
Stacy
Posted by b.b. on January 28, 2000, at 13:14:33
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 10:26:52
Calling Christianity narrow minded is showing ignorance of the religion itself. People are too often spoon fed their beliefs and in doing so only contribute to the negative feelings associated with it. Christianity is the only large organized religion to practice complete forgiveness of ones sins. Muslims still use the eye for an eye doctrine...Hindus preach that your works here on earth define your next role in life and the Jews believe that God no longer truly cares for his people, as he once did in the Old Testament. Christianity in it's purest sense only preaches forgiveness and reward...not so narrow minded if you ask me.
Posted by Louisa on January 28, 2000, at 13:32:57
In reply to Religion and Depression, posted by Cass on January 27, 2000, at 19:31:39
I was a little surprised by the posting by "+" which claimed that Christians don't recognize anyone else's approach to God.
Haven't you ever heard of ecumenism?
Though there have been many, many times when Christians have been intolerant of other faiths, there have also always been Christians in dialogue with them, and the same is true today. I recommend to Cass that he (or she, I don't know) find a religious community that is welcoming and open, whatever the denomination. In my travels, I have met tolerant Catholics and intolerant Episcopalians (and vice versa), both tolerant and intolerant Jews, and many many other variations on the theme. I wish you Godspeed, and good luck.
Louisa
Posted by Adam on January 28, 2000, at 13:58:03
In reply to Re: Buddhism and Depression, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 0:19:58
dj brings up some important points here: There is a plurality of groups, both organized and disorganized, that fall under the umbrella of buddhism. Also, there are certainly many adherents of other faiths who incorporate some of the core buddhist principles to the practice of their faith and other aspects of their lives. Many buddhist communities welcome such members, as well as empirical agnostics such as myself. I would find such a community very interesting and stimulating, I think. I hope I wouldn't cause too much trouble. :)
> I just did a very, quick scan of Adam's comments and noted the focus on Buddhism. A few quick comments. Lots of links between Buddhism and psychotherapy. Some good books on such written by Alan Watts and Mark Epstein (Going to Pieces Without Falling Apart).
>
> In Vancouver there are something like 50 or so flavours of Buddhism, from more conservative to less. Peter Matthiesen writes well about some of these distinctions in a book about a search for the Snow Leopard in Tibet. Many excellent books written by American Buddhists, which are usually nicely polished gems.
>
> The core of buddhism is, as Adam indicated, how to let go of suffering by recognizing it is based on one's graspings for this or that, and to learn how to recongize when one is doing this and how to not do so.
>
> Throughout North America there are Shambalha Centres based on a mix of tibetan buddhism and other streams. HQ is in Halifax, Nova Scotia, used to be in Denver. Very good influence on the community there. These are communnity run and offer free intro. into a simple meditative technique and a space to pursue the same with others as well as some interesting discussion of principles. By donation. Great atmosphere, generally, very ecunemical -- adherents come from many religiious traditions, including judaism, catholism -- some still practice such and are not contradicted by buddhism which is very accepting and down to earth, generally, though it has its fringe groups as with any philosophy.
Posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 16:11:05
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 10:26:52
John|10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by
the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same
is a thief and a robber.
John|10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of
the sheep.
John|10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice:
and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
John|10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before
them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
John|10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from
him: for they know not the voice of strangers.This doesn't take much intelligence to interpret. This is an accurate translation of what Christ said. Does any other religion recognize Christ as the Messiah? If not why should Christians acknowledge it? If so why is it not called Christianity? If you are seeking some other god, seek it somewhere other than the Church.
Posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 16:12:55
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by b.b. on January 28, 2000, at 13:14:33
Your media-fed ignorance is showing, B.B. Read the book I cited above and you will discover that other religions preach and practice true compassion as much as Christianity which has its own sordid history of barbarism in the name of Christ. Check out the movie and/or book "At Play in the Fields of the Lord" or "Black Robe" and you may begin to question who is saving and forgiving whom. Or read some history and theology, other than that which your minister or priest has passed his blessing upon and you may get a truer sense of what is real and what is an illusion created by spin doctors.
Posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 16:20:51
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 16:11:05
So +, are you any relationship to the man formerly called Prince?
Your narrow mindness is showing. Take a look at my references and don't just come back with your dogma. How do you know it's an accurate translation? Were you there? There are many who are doubtless more knowledgable and creditable than you who question the various interpretations of what the bible presents.
Don't lay your holier than thou crap on me.
> This doesn't take much intelligence to interpret. This is an accurate translation of what Christ said. Does any other religion recognize Christ as the Messiah? If not why should Christians acknowledge it? If so why is it not called Christianity? If you are seeking some other god, seek it somewhere other than the >Church.
Posted by John on January 28, 2000, at 16:26:37
In reply to Religion and Depression, posted by Cass on January 27, 2000, at 19:31:39
>After being raised a strict Catholic and being instilled with the belief in original and mortal sin and confession to repent for our sins I rejected it all as soon as I was old enough to escape it's clutches. But when I look back I still fondly remember the beauty and mysticism of a High Mass. It's unfortunate that the church has twisted around the teachings of Jesus into a dogma of sin, guilt and hypocrisy to perpetuate the existence of the church.
Since rejecting the church over 30 years ago I've been looking for spiritual meaning to my life. My first bout with depression a few years ago reminded me of just how spiritually empty I had become. Shortly after recovering from my depression a friend introduced me to Marianne Williamson's book "A Return to Love" Reflections on A Course in Miracles, that blew me out of the water. It was the teachings of Jesus presented in a totally new manner. It changed my life and I would highly recommend the book to anyone looking for spiritual meaning to their life without the burden of organized religion and it's dogma. Unfortunately to many Christian zealot's the book is heresy. Make your own opinion. The book is a wonderful breath of fresh air that I believe would benefit anyone especially those of us suffering from depression or anxiety.
The book that Williamson refers to is "A Course in Miracles" which can be found in most large bookstores. There are also several web sites dedicated to providing daily spiritual cognitive behavioral practice lessons to practice that I've found very helpful in regaining my life as a loving, caring, forgiving person with suffering from anxiety, guilt or depression.
If you're interested you can find their information at their new web site at: http://nen.sedona.net/circleofa/./
The lessons can be found at: http://www.quik.com/~spade/acim.cgi
And Williamson's book can be found at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and Borders web sites and stores.
Posted by Louisa on January 28, 2000, at 17:12:10
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 16:11:05
There's not much that's accurate about the King James Bible. How's your Greek? (which is only a substitute for the original Aramaic, anyway). And besides, who says that any of the original evangelists, who all wrote considerably after the events in question, and John later than any of them, by the way, remembered every word correctly?
I consider myself to be a Catholic Christian, but I also believe that God has enough kindness, mercy and love not to damn any of those who seek (to your surprise, that may even include you -- who knows?).
Go ahead, call me a heretic. I'm used to it -- but they gave up burning people at the stake a while ago, ok?
Louisa
Posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 17:17:44
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by John on January 28, 2000, at 16:26:37
Marianne Williamson's book starts with some comments on her experience of depression and how it is a refection of our society and times. Very interesting book and she is a much clearer interpreter of the text than many. The textof the Course in Miracles, like the bible (which has lots of barbarism in it if one bothers to read beyond the usual pious quotes) is a bit thick going when it comes to making heads or tales of it.
Williamson, interestingly was brought up Jewish (as was the disciple Paul & many in that time) and is considered one of the foremost interpreters of this at times byzantine text. I've heard at least two Catholic priests (forward looking ones) speak approvingly of the theology of the Course.
The following quote is often falsely attributed to Nelson Mandela's inaugral address, which is a nice thought but a blatant falsehood as a check of his speeches will soon show you, if you care to verify that from any of the many on-line sources for them.
This is from page 188-9 of the 1994 paperback edition of, "A Return to Love":
"As I interpret the Course, 'our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us.' We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small doesn't serve the world. There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our light shine, we unconsciouly give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our prescence automatically liberates others."My mother who is deeply Christian/Catholic in deed and word resonated with this quote when I sent her a copy.
More on MW can be found at http://www.marianne.com
For therepeutically based programs, which are informed by ACIM one source is:
http://www.clearmind.ca
> Shortly after recovering from my depression a friend introduced me to Marianne Williamson's book "A Return to Love" Reflections on A Course in Miracles, that blew me out of the water. It was the teachings of Jesus presented in a totally new manner. It changed my life and I would highly recommend the book to anyone looking for spiritual meaning to their life without the burden of organized religion and it's dogma. Unfortunately to many Christian zealot's the book >is heresy. Make your own opinion.
Posted by CarolAnn on January 28, 2000, at 18:10:23
In reply to Religion and Depression, posted by Cass on January 27, 2000, at 19:31:39
Cass, when my husband and I decided to have a baby, we decided that we needed to have a church as a spiritual "base" to raise the child in. We both feel (and have read research which agrees) that a lot of the problems modern teens face stem from a lack of faith in any kind of Higher Power.
However, neither of us is interested in any kind of judgemental, holier then thou, dogma oriented, religion. We also both feel that the Bible cannot be taken literally, and wanted a church which would not teach it as literal.
Anyway, we ended up choosing the Methodist church as we have found it to be pretty much exactly what our faith required. It is nice to worship in a church where people of every "type" are accepted as God's children, and welcomed, with no attempts to convert anyone to any particular way of believing.CarolAnn
Posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 18:40:54
In reply to Re: Religion 101 for + , posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 16:20:51
"Don't lay your holier than thou crap on me."
What is it that you are doing? Christians beleive that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Your books are mens ideas. I choose to get my information as close to the source as I can. The Bible's translation is known to be accurate because of the comparison of numerous documents. There are no doubt plenty of people more intelligent than me who are going to end up in Hell. I am not following them there.
Posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 18:58:16
In reply to for +, posted by Louisa on January 28, 2000, at 17:12:10
I have a Concordance, a King James version, a paraphrased version, a Catholic version, and a modern translation. Do you interpret that passage of scripture differently? (John 10:1-10 etc..) You might get through the pearly gates too, that would be up to someone else.
Posted by Anon on January 28, 2000, at 19:52:16
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 16:11:05
this is ridiculous! Jesus only spoke in parables.
He didn't expect anyone to take him literally.
Posted by Cass on January 28, 2000, at 20:02:37
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 10:26:52
Any system of beliefs can be misused and exploited. Personally, I believe that there is probably great truth and understanding to be gained in A Course in Miracles. However, when I was a child, my mother misused metaphysical beliefs. Some of the beliefs became weapons, i.e. if any of us questioned her neglectful, irrational behavior, we were just "too spiritually unevolved to recognize her perfection." If she inflicted any emtional harm, we were just suffering the results of bad karma. If we were sick and wanted medicine, we were just too unevolved to see the illness as a spiritual opportunity. She used it as a way to diminish us. Unfortunately, the experience left me sour on the idea of A Course in Miracles. I'm fully aware of it probable value, but it takes me back in time to a place I don't want to revisit.
Posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 20:58:37
In reply to to +, posted by Anon on January 28, 2000, at 19:52:16
> this is ridiculous! Jesus only spoke in parables.
>
> He didn't expect anyone to take him literally.I don't agree. I think his point was that there is no way to gain salvation other than him. There are other scriptures that confirm this. You are free to interpret as you like.
Posted by Adam on January 28, 2000, at 22:15:28
In reply to Re: Religion and Depression, posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 10:26:52
Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies,
they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease;
whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come,
then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child,
I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:
now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three;
but the greatest of these is love.I Corinthians 13
Anyway, a nice web site on buddhism geared towards Westerners is here:
http://www.fwbo.org/index.html
I thought it provided lots more useful information than I did, in case
anyone is interested.
Posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 22:47:46
In reply to Religion and Depression, posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 18:40:54
FYI, the Pope recently announced that hell is not a place, just an idea, kinda like Nirvana.
All books are written by men, interpreting their narrow slice of the universe. Yours is narrower than most because you revel in your dogmatic, simplistic beliefs. I believe Christianity has just as much to offer as any other philosophical set of principles, all of which have good and bad points NONE of which is superior to any other. The superiority comes in the practice of core principles not the mealy mouthed, sancitmonious crap that hyprocrites spew, while crucifying those who disagree with them.
Following are some examples of true love in action, I received today, something I imagine you lack because you are so blinded by your self righteous attitude, which you cloak in the supposed words of God ie: good. My apologies that the formattings isn't as good as it might be as I don't have the time to edit it. Lovely stories though, unlike many in the barbarous Bible.
"> > During my second month of nursing school, our
> > > professor gave us a pop quiz.
> > > I was a conscientious student and had breezed
> > > through the questions, until I read the last one:
> > > "What is the first name of the woman who cleans the
> > > school?"
> > >
> > > Surely this was some kind of joke. I had seen the
> > > cleaning woman several times. She was tall,
> > >dark-haired and in her 50s,but how would I know her
> > >name? I handed in my paper, leaving the last
> > >question blank.
> > >
> > > Just before class ended, one student asked if the
> > > last question would count toward our quiz grade.
> > >"Absolutely," said the
> > > professor. "In your careers,you will meet many
> > >people. All are significant.
> > >
> > > They deserve your attention and care, even if all
> > >you do is smile and say 'hello'."
> > >
> > > "I've never forgotten that lesson. I also learned
> > > her name was Dorothy.
> > >
> > > Second Important Lesson~ Pick up in the Rain
> > >
> > > One night, at 11:30 PM, an older African American
> > > woman was standing on the side of an Alabama highway
> > > trying to endure a lashing rain storm. Her car
> > > had broken down and she desperately needed a ride.
> > > Soaking wet, she decided to flag down the next car.
> > > A young white man stopped to help her, generally
> > >unheard of in those conflict-filled 1960s.
> > >
> > > The man took her to safety, helped her get
> > > assistance and put her into a
> > > taxicab. She seemed to be in a big hurry, but wrote
> > > down his address and thanked him. Seven days went
> > >by and a knock came on the man's door. To his
> > >surprise, a giant console color TV was delivered to
> > >his home. A special note was attached.
> > >
> > > It read: "Thank you so much for assisting me on
> > > the highway the other night. The rain drenched not
> > > only my clothes, but also my spirits. Then
> > > you came along. Because of you, I was able to make
> > > it to my dying husband's bedside just before he
> > >passed away. God bless you for helping me and
> > > unselfishly serving others."
> > > Sincerely, Mrs. Nat King Cole.
> > >
> > > Third Important Lesson ~ Always Remember Those
> > > Who Serve You
> > >
> > > In the days when an ice cream sundae cost much
> > > less, a 10-year old boy entered a hotel coffee shop
> > > and sat at a table. A waitress put a glass of
> > > water in front of him. "How much is an ice cream
> > >sundae?" he asked.
> > > "Fifty cents," replied the waitress. The little
> > > boy pulled his hand out of
> > > his pocket and studied the coins in it. "Well, how
> > > much is a plain dish of
> > > ice cream?" he inquired. By now more people were
> > > waiting for a table and the waitress was growing
> > >impatient.
> > > "Thirty-five cents," she brusquely replied."
> > > The little boy again counted his coins. "I'll have
> > > the plain ice cream,"
> > > he said. The waitress brought the ice cream, put
> > >the
> > > bill on the table and walked away.
> > >
> > > The boy finished the ice cream, paid the cashier
> > > and left. When the waitress came back, she began to
> > > cry as she wiped down the
> > > table. There, placed beside the empty dish, were
> > >two nickels and five pennies - You see,he couldn't
> > >have the sundae, because he had to have enough left
> > >to leave her a tip.
> > >
> > > Fourth Important Lesson ~ The Obstacle In Our
> > > Path
> > >
> > > In ancient times, a King had a boulder placed on a
> > > roadway.Then he hid himself and watched to see if
> > > anyone would remove the huge rock.
> > > Some of the king's wealthiest merchants and
> > > courtiers came by and simply walked around it.
> > >
> > > Many loudly blamed the king for not keeping the
> > > roads clear, but none did anything about getting the
> > > stone out of the way.
> > > Then a peasant came along carrying a load of
> > > vegetables. Upon approaching the boulder, the
> > >peasant laid down his burden and tried to move the
> > >stone
> > > to the side of the road. After much pushing and
> > > straining, he finally succeeded.
> > >
> > > After the peasant picked up his load of vegetables,
> > > he noticed a purse lying in the road where the
> > >boulder had been.The purse contained many gold coins
> > >and a note from the king indicating
> > > that the gold was for the person who removed the
> > >boulder from the roadway. The
> > > peasant learned what many of us never understand.
> > >
> > > Every obstacle presents an opportunity to improve
> > > our condition.
> > >
> > > Fifth Important Lesson ~ Giving When It Counts
> > >
> > > Many years ago, when I worked as a volunteer at a
> > > hospital, I got to know a
> > > little girl named Liz who was suffering from a rare
> > > and serious disease. Her only chance of recovery
> > >appeared to be a blood transfusion from her
> > > 5-year old brother, who had miraculously survived
> > > the same disease and had developed the antibodies
> > > needed to combat the illness. The doctor
> > > explained the situation to her little brother, and
> > > asked the little boy if he would be willing to give
> > > his blood to his sister. I saw him hesitate for
> > >only a moment before taking a deep breath and
> > >saying,
> > > "Yes, I'll do it if it will save her..."
> > >
> > > As the transfusion progressed, he lay in bed next to his sister and smiled, as we all did, seeing the
> > > color returning to her cheeks. Then,his face grew pale and his smile faded. He looked up at the doctor and asked with a trembling voice, "Will I start to die right away?"
> > >
> > > Being young, the little boy had misunderstood the doctor; he thought he was going to have to give his sister all of his blood in order to save her.
> > >
> > > You see understanding and attitude, after all, is everything.> "Don't lay your holier than thou crap on me."
>
> What is it that you are doing? Christians beleive that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Your books are mens ideas. I choose to get my information as close to the source as I can. The Bible's translation is known to be accurate because of the comparison of numerous documents. There are no doubt plenty of people more intelligent than me who are going to end up in Hell. I am not following them there.
Posted by dj on January 28, 2000, at 22:57:38
In reply to Re: to Anon, posted by + on January 28, 2000, at 20:58:37
Of course plus as you really are a minus you would interpret it in the most narrow, nonsensical manner. BTW, further on the concept of hell it is a creation here on earth, that folks like you shape with your lack of imagination and insight and your historical tendencies to crucify or do even more hideous things to folks who don't march to your tunes.
> > this is ridiculous! Jesus only spoke in parables.
> >
> > He didn't expect anyone to take him literally.
>
> I don't agree. I think his point was that there is no way to gain salvation other than him. There are other scriptures that confirm this. You are free to interpret as you like.
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