![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 69 to 93 of 251. Go back in thread:
Posted by Scott L. Schofield on December 27, 1999, at 19:30:59
In reply to Re: mood disorders/klonopin,depakote,neurontin etc...., posted by Dilbert on December 10, 1999, at 2:15:02
> I have never heard of this before (in regard's to Paul's situation). First of all, I thought that Klonopin was an antianxiety drug, not an antiepileptic.
Klonopin (clonazepam) has been used quite often as an anticonvulsant. Sometimes there is a tendency to “pidgeon-hole” drugs into categories without regard to other possible uses for them. For instance, I think it would be more accurate to say that Klonopin is a compound that exerts antianxiety effects as well as antiepileptic effects. It is probably used less often now as an antiepileptic with the advent of the newer drugs.
Somewhere floating around in my mushy memory is the notion that Klonopin may alter serotonin function to some degree. The drug is definitely unique among the benzodiazepines.
Posted by aaron ross on January 8, 2000, at 17:47:07
In reply to Re: mood disorders/klonopin,depakote,neurontin etc...., posted by Scott L. Schofield on December 27, 1999, at 19:30:59
Hi Everyone.-- My mother was recently in a
car accident and has pain in one leg. We are
going to see a "pain specialist" on Monday. They
put her on depakote to "help the effectiveness of
vicadin" It immediately affected her mood. When
I looked up what it is for, seizures and Bi-polar
disorders, I freaked out and asked the doctor about
it. She took my mom off of depakote. But then,
to my chagrin, another person suggested the possible
use of neurotin, which I come to find out is sort
of the same story...I would like to have a document of anyone's personal
experience with neurotin regardless of the reason
you were first put on it. I read someones response
who said epilepsy was induced by one of these
drugs (ie, prescribed for bi-polar, ended up with
seizures) is this true? How long have these drugs
been around?Isn't there any kind of document I can have the
doctor who prescribes the medication sign that
holds them personally responsible for any serious,
long term side effects? so that maybe they will
think twice about prescribing these medications?Thanks
Aaron
Posted by Gary Jeffryes on January 14, 2000, at 13:13:05
In reply to Re: mood disorders/klonopin,depakote,neurontin etc, posted by Klonogirl on December 29, 1998, at 21:07:06
I have been on "psychiatric" meds since 1989. The first was Prozac. For the first time I could remember in my life I felt well and my chronic headaches went away. I was 39 years old at that time. I now take a combination of Zoloft and Tegretol, and have been the most stable I have ever felt and rarely have a headache.
Posted by Hanl on January 20, 2000, at 19:30:55
In reply to Re: mood disorders/klonopin,depakote,neurontin etc...., posted by aaron ross on January 8, 2000, at 17:47:07
>
>Hello, I read your post about your mom being put on depakote and a suggestion of neurontin. I'm a
clinical mental health counselor, with a background in rehabilitation and clinical case management
frequently with individuals with phsycial problems (ie. back pain, Reflex Sympathic Dystrophy, etc)He's the deal. Neurontin is a seizure medication, utilized for partial complex seizures. Over the past 4-5
years we have learned that it is also useful in psychiatry as a mood stabilizer, (ie. Bipolar disorder) other
of the seizuer meds also are good mood stabilizers. We have also found that neurontin has anti-anxiety
effects as well. It is currently going through clinical trial for mood stabilization anti-anxiety, and it also
seems to help addicts stay off drugs.One of the more recent findings are that it is particularly helpful with Neuropathic pain. I suspect this is
why you mom's doc placed her on depakote, and suggested neuontin. From my prospective neurontin is
better. It works better is not provessed by the liver, so it doesn't require blood liver function testing. If
your mom's pain in neuropathic and chronic, then this drug deserves a trial. It's reasonable safe, with
few side effects and a wide dosage range (up to 3000 mg.) I'd suggest you talk with the doctor.Please note: I am not a physician, and please don't take this a medical advice. It's just information, with
which to begin a discussion with your doctor.
Hope it helps....Hank
Posted by beth on January 25, 2000, at 14:33:24
In reply to just advice, posted by Ellen on August 8, 1999, at 6:34:35
Re; neurotin I have benn on neurotin for over two years. It has eased my anxiety and helps me sleep. I have no side effects except maybe a bad reaction with dairy products. I have gone as high as 2700 mg day now at that dose . I have bipolar and doc wants me to try topomax whatever I'm sick of new meds. This my first response and glad to see the sight.
Posted by Mary Legan on February 11, 2000, at 18:02:53
In reply to Re: Klonopin; Re:Uninvited Advice, posted by alan on January 20, 1999, at 0:51:54
> > This string of messages scares me. I have been on 1 mg of Klonopin for 8 years and am unable to get off it. Even minute reductions (say to .87 mg) bring such dark feelings that Ihave to go back to 1 mg. I had been on it before and went into a treatment center (for other psychological issues -- sexual abuse memories etc.) and the center took me off cold turkey. I had a rough first two weeks there but never attributed it to Klonopin withdrawal. Went back on several months later when my marriage broke up. That was 8 years ago and I have not been able to get off of it yet. Started Celaxa an antidepressant under a doctor's care as a prelude to getting off this. It was a disaster. (See my post under Celaxa thread). I am angry that people didn't know how addictive this stuff was. I was told 10 years ago by a responsible psychiatrist that it was non-addictive unlike valium which Ihad been on previously. THat proved not to be true. I don't want to live in a world where I am obsessed with my feelings and mmy medications. I am just expressing myself here, not particularly looking for advice. I have other things I want to do with my life than live in a closed world of mental concerns.
> 1. If you stay at 1 mg./day for the rest of your life, so what? Don't sweat it all that much.
> 2. One of my old tricks. Take the tab and give it a tiny scratch on sandpaper; after a wek, two such tiny scratces; then three, etc.. Eventually this will take some dexterity, but I bet it might help. Best of luck.
Does anyone else out there have any other hints to help withdrawal?
Posted by bipolar man on February 13, 2000, at 15:04:17
In reply to Re: mood disorders/klonopin,depakote,neurontin etc, posted by Klonogirl on December 29, 1998, at 0:57:10
I have to agree, dont believe all that you her. I am bipolar I, takin neurontin,seroquel, and klonopin AS NEEDED not all the time. Sounds like to me that a lot of the people here dont have a good relationship with their pdoc. Some meds are to be takin all the time, benzos can be dangerous, if you dont need it dont take it. Talk to your pdoc and see if you can take AS NEEDED. works for me, and i am a dual diagnosed patient.
Posted by KW on March 2, 2000, at 16:41:15
In reply to Re: mood disorders/klonopin,depakote,neurontin etc...., posted by Hanl on January 20, 2000, at 19:30:55
Hello,
I just recently began taking Neurontin, after having a most horrible & psychotic & near suicidal episode whilst on Depakote (and then withdrawing from it was very noticeable & uncomfortable if not deablitating). This--so far--has a much nicer feel although I remain a bit worried about possible side-effects--especially long-term problems (I'm very sensitive to medicines and tend to develop most bad reactions immediately). Other than this though, I really have no qualms (as I once did) about staying on meds for the rest of my life if they are helpful.
--KW
Posted by Melissa on March 3, 2000, at 9:06:59
In reply to Re: mood disorders/klonopin,depakote,neurontin etc...., posted by Hanl on January 20, 2000, at 19:30:55
I was very glad for the psychological benefits of neurontin. I started to take this drug as a potential replacement for klonopin, to which I am extremely addicted, even though I am taking only 1 mg. I have been on it for nearly 10 years and have been trying various ways to get off it for 5 years. I have tried taking a variety of anti-depressants, which failed because they made me extremly tired and triggered compulsive overeating and rapid weight gain, even though the psychological benefits were very good. My doctor suggested trying neurontin next. At first it seemed great. No compulsive overeating, in fact the opposite was true. My eating disorder seemed relieved. My mental health felt very good. But as the days progressed I started feeling an increased speedy effect, teeth clenching and by the end of the second week I was unable to sleep at all through the night. I was tired and less functional not because of the drug but from the extreme sleep deprivation and feeling speedy anyway. I tried reducing the dosage to 25% of the recommended amount (30 mg), I tried taking it every other day, but the clenching of teeth and the inability to sleep just progressed further. People said I looked the worst they had ever seen me look, and I have looked pretty bad as I have experimented with various medications. It has taken three days off the drug for teeth clenching to stop, and for the last two nights, for the first time in two weeks, I have slept through the night one night and woke up only once the second, though I was having some difficulty getting to sleep the second night. The neurontin also seemed to trigger my menopausal symptoms which are also feeling speedy at night and nights sweats. That seems to be subsiding now as the drug wears off. But my eating disorder is back with a vengance. I can tolerate a little bit because I lost about 5 pounds during the neurontin period, but I hope it will return to just the normal struggle not to overeat. (I am in overeaters anonymous.) I am really sad that neurontin didn't work. Of course I was taking the klonopin the whole time...but there is nothing I can do about that. I can't start the withdrawel until I am stabilized on something else. But for those people who have had problems with weight gain on anti-depressants, I must say the neurontin did not have that effect on me. I really felt it was a wonder drug except for this speediness and sleep deprivation. I feel almost ready to resign myself that I will be taking klonopin the rest of my life like diabetics take insulin. I wish my doctor had not put me on it 10 years ago. I believe neurontin was available 10 years ago and I may have been better able to tolerate it then. I think I am much less able to tolerate changes in my system because of being my age which is soon to be 52. This is in spite of a very healthful diet, regular exercise and a rather youthful appearance (I usually pass for in my late 30's...that is when I am not looking exhausted.) Hope this info is useful for all you out there. Melissa
Posted by Jill on March 17, 2000, at 17:02:31
In reply to Re: Klonopin, posted by Melissa on January 19, 1999, at 0:27:49
> This string of messages scares me. I have been on 1 mg of Klonopin for 8 years and am unable to get off it. Even minute reductions (say to .87 mg) bring such dark feelings that Ihave to go back to 1 mg. I had been on it before and went into a treatment center (for other psychological issues -- sexual abuse memories etc.) and the center took me off cold turkey. I had a rough first two weeks there but never attributed it to Klonopin withdrawal. Went back on several months later when my marriage broke up. That was 8 years ago and I have not been able to get off of it yet. Started Celaxa an antidepressant under a doctor's care as a prelude to getting off this. It was a disaster. (See my post under Celaxa thread). I am angry that people didn't know how addictive this stuff was. I was told 10 years ago by a responsible psychiatrist that it was non-addictive unlike valium which Ihad been on previously. THat proved not to be true. I don't want to live in a world where I am obsessed with my feelings and mmy medications. I am just expressing myself here, not particularly looking for advice. I have other things I want to do with my life than live in a closed world of mental concerns.
I been on Klonopin for 10 years now. And it is not working anymore for my anxiety. I have been on the same dosage. Now my new Dr. wants to up my dosage to 3mg a day divided up. I was on .5mg 3x a day. I haven't experiene weight gain or loss of appetite on the lower dosage. Did you gain or lose on the higher dosage? How about appetite? I hope someone can help me with my questions.
Posted by Melissa on March 17, 2000, at 17:40:19
In reply to Re: Klonopin, posted by Jill on March 17, 2000, at 17:02:31
> I been on Klonopin for 10 years now. And it is not working anymore for my anxiety. I have been on the same dosage. Now my new Dr. wants to up my dosage to 3mg a day divided up. I was on .5mg 3x a day. I haven't experiene weight gain or loss of appetite on the lower dosage. Did you gain or lose on the higher dosage? How about appetite? I hope someone can help me with my questions.
I have just stayed on my usual dose of klonopin 1 mg at night. My doctor put me on neurontin to serve as a substitute for klonopin. I would try that if I were you instead of uping the dosage of klonopin, which is so heavily and dangerously addictive. Neurontin is also an anti-convulsant that is used to treat anxiety as klonopin is but it is non-addictive. When I took it I found it far more effective than klonopin and though I usually have weight gain issues on almost any drug, I actually started to loose weight on neurontin because my compulsive eating was lifted. I could not stay with nerontin however because it made me incredibly in my bones tired and I started to not be able to function. The positive psychological effects were tremendous however and if I could have stayed on it I would have. So I suggest you try that first for a couple of weeks (while staying on your current dosage of klonopin) and if there are no intolerable negative side effects then wean yourself off the klonopin very slowly. It is a dangerous drug to get off of. It can cause epileptic seizures if the withdrawal is done too quickly. And I believe my doctor was going to prescribe Beta blockers (if I have the term right) if I had been able to move forward with the neurontin. That was to help with the withdrawal from the klonopin. But I never got that far. Good luck!
I also meant to ask, have you switched from klonopin to a generic of it? The generics are not as effective and don't work the same or as well. If so I would go back to the brand name klonopin. It is more expensive and insurance plans don't seem to cover the excess but I had to do that.
Posted by Anne on March 17, 2000, at 20:01:41
In reply to Re: Klonopin, posted by Jill on March 17, 2000, at 17:02:31
I was on Klonopin for anxiety and told it wasn't as addicting as valium. I looked it up and found it was and asked to be put on buspar which ironically made me more nervous. If you want to get off of it you can by lowering the dose by cutting it in quarters and taking at first the whole and then 3/4 for about 3 weeks and then 1/2 for about 3 weeks and then 1/4 for weeks and then to nothing. This worked for me. You may experience some psychological withdrawal but not too much that way. I would also flush it after that. Occasionally I take ativan. Maybe .5 of 1 mg. I've been taking it occasionally for a few years and don't feel addicted to it but then I'm on a neuroleptic now and that is a sort of major tranquilizer yet not terribly hard to withdraw from if need be. I know the psychological part can be especially hard if you have physiological symptoms of withdrawal, too, but if you really want to get off of it I would keep reminding myself of it and the favor I'm doing myself without an addictive drug every day. I would try something else for anxiety if you need it. Klonopin is close to valium in my opinion in regard to dependencey and strength. But, of course, I am not a doctor. I'm just a pill consumer! Anne
Posted by Jill on March 19, 2000, at 12:59:01
In reply to Re: Klonopin, posted by Jill on March 17, 2000, at 17:02:31
>
My question isn't how to go off Klonopin, I need something to help my anxiety attacks that have gotten worse. My Dr suggested going up on my klonopin. I don't want to if I am going to get bad effects. I don't want to gain weight or have an increase of appetite. I binge already, I am always hungry, but I really am not, just think I need to eat. My Dr. also suggested neurontin, but I also have questions about side effects on that drug too. I wondered about Paxil also. I just want to get rid of these anxiety attacks and live my life again. HELP!!!!
Posted by Melissa on March 20, 2000, at 1:04:58
In reply to Re: Klonopin, posted by Jill on March 19, 2000, at 12:59:01
> >
> My question isn't how to go off Klonopin, I need something to help my anxiety attacks that have gotten worse. My Dr suggested going up on my klonopin. I don't want to if I am going to get bad effects. I don't want to gain weight or have an increase of appetite. I binge already, I am always hungry, but I really am not, just think I need to eat. My Dr. also suggested neurontin, but I also have questions about side effects on that drug too. I wondered about Paxil also. I just want to get rid of these anxiety attacks and live my life again. HELP!!!!If you check my previous e-mail, I spoke about the issues of eating with Neurontin. I am also a compulsive overeater (amember of OA) and the Neurontin had no eating side effects. In fact, if anything, it relieved it and I started to lose weight gradually while I was on it. There is almost no reported weight gain side effect on Neurontin. The incidence in which it occurs is absolutely miniscule. Because I have eating issues I was very concerned about this. If there was ever a chance of weight gain on a drug no matter how small, I gained the weight. I did NOT on Neurontin. So give it a try. I also was put on klonopin because it was supposed to be not addictive as valium. ANd in fact it was. And the longer you are on it the more addicted you become. I could not even tolerate a reduction of my medication of klonopin of less than 5% . The effects on my physiologically were horrendous, extreme irratability and so forth, with in a matter of days. I have known several people who have tried to get off Klonopin after being on it for years. One woman has nearly succeedded after slowly reducing her dosage over a two year period. Another woman suffered permanent hearing damage. During one of my efforts to get off with the slightest reduction in the drug caused permnent hearing loss in me and I will now probably have to get a hearing aid. Klonopin is only supposed to be prescribed for extremely short term use. Unfortunately, many doctors are not informed of that and therefore misinform their patients. The short term use is precisely becaus of its increeasing addictive qualities over time, that can in fact induce epilepsy if one tries to get off it.
Posted by Al on March 21, 2000, at 16:09:20
In reply to Re: mood disorders/klonopin,depakote,neurontin etc...., posted by michele on June 2, 1999, at 18:47:41
> > > YOU HAVE TO BE OUT OF YOUR FUCKING MIND TO TAKE ANTI-EPILEPTIC MEDICINES FOR MOOD DISORDERS(KLONOPIN,DEPAKOTE,NEURONTIN ETC...) A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO I WAS PRESCRIBED KLONOPIN BY A SHRINK (MAY HE AND HIS FAMILY BURN IN HELL)FOR ANXIETY AND ALSO PAXIL WHICH I DIDNT TAKE VERY LONG, WELL AFTER ABOUT 3 MONTHS I FELT LIKE I DIDNT NEED THE KLONOPIN EITHER SO I STOPPED TAKING IT. WELL NOW I AM A DOCTOR MADE EPILEPTIC AND HAVE TO TAKE MEDICINE FOR SEIZURES THE REST OF MY LIFE.I NEVER HAD SEIZUREE AT ALL NOW I HAVE GRAN-MAL ( THE KIND THAT MAKE YOU BLACK OUT SHAKE RATTLE & ROLLBITE YOUR TONGUE AND MAYBE EVEN SHIT YOUR PANTS) I WOULD RATHER BE FUCKING CRAZY THAN GO THRU THIS SHIT. AND YOU KNOW WHAT I STILL HAVE DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY.NOW THAT I LOOK BACK I COULD OF EASILY LIVED WITH THE WAY I FELT BEFORE I WENT TO THAT PIECE OF SHIT DOCTOR. SO A WORD OF ADVICE DONT LOOK TO LIFES PROBLEMS TO BE RELIEVED BY A PILL( I BET NONE OF YOUR DOCTORS HAVE WARNED YOU ABOUT THESE TYPES OF MEDS)
>
>
> wow, i am horribly shocked to have heard your story paul! i have been on klonopin for close to 10 yrs now. i am bipolar with anxiety disorder and after years of xanax and ativan, dr. recommonded klonopin to me. i have had it every which way, with depakote, and a slew of other anti-depressants....so far, im doin ok on it. i am currently on 2mg. at bed w/ 30 mg. remeron. and i have been up to 10 mg. klonopin per day when things were REAL bad. some days i do not take it at all. i did get off all meds about a year ago, thinking i may want to get pregnant, but was only off of klonopin about 6 weeks. i had terrible panic attacks and dr. put me back on....i am wondering if i were to ever go back off it..(which i am considering) would my body revert back to panic attacks, or would i have severe withdrawal...
>
>
> It helps me feel less shy around people, but I act kinda stupid in public at times. It's affected my ability to concentrate so much that I can no longer pursue my studies in Calculas, and related subjects.
Posted by Amanda S on March 22, 2000, at 19:05:06
In reply to Re: mood disorders/klonopin,depakote,neurontin etc...., posted by Al on March 21, 2000, at 16:09:20
I have read some disturbing news about Klonopin and my doctor just put me on it today, taking .25mg a day. I take lamictal also. What is this about seizures that our doctors don't tell us about when you wean yourself off this drug. I have had good luck with xanax, but my doc wanted to put me on klonopin instead because it is time-released. Sounds like a scarey drug! Please give me any info that you can.
Posted by Cam W. on March 22, 2000, at 20:49:23
In reply to generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Amanda S on March 22, 2000, at 19:05:06
Amanda - What have you heard that was disturbing about the drug (outside of the seizures)? I find that Klonopin to be a safer benzodiazepine than Xanax. It has less chance of withdrawl effects and can be taken fewer times a day. Klonopin has some anticonvulsant activity and when used for convulsive disorders, the seizures can return upon withdrawing the drug. Klonopin is not involved in as many drug interactions as Xanax. Klonopin is used quite extensively for mental disorders to take the edge off of anxiety. 0.25mg is a nice, low dose. Hope this helps - Cam W.
Posted by Amanda S on March 22, 2000, at 21:42:17
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Cam W. on March 22, 2000, at 20:49:23
Cam, If you look down at the following follow-ups at the bottom of my response you will not believe what these people have said. Especially this Paul person, but you have to go to the March 12 threads, I think. Take a look if you haven't already. Thanks
Posted by Melissa on March 22, 2000, at 21:46:20
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Cam W. on March 22, 2000, at 20:49:23
>
> Amanda - What have you heard that was disturbing about the drug (outside of the seizures)? I find that Klonopin to be a safer benzodiazepine than Xanax. It has less chance of withdrawl effects and can be taken fewer times a day. Klonopin has some anticonvulsant activity and when used for convulsive disorders, the seizures can return upon withdrawing the drug. Klonopin is not involved in as many drug interactions as Xanax. Klonopin is used quite extensively for mental disorders to take the edge off of anxiety. 0.25mg is a nice, low dose. Hope this helps - Cam W.
Amanda -- Please read the messages that come before. Xanax is highly addicting, but so is klonopin. I would not get on it for the life of me. I am on it, 1 mg a day, and I have been for ten years. And I have been trying to get off it for 5 of those years under doctor's supervision and it has been impossible. If you do any research you will see it is extremely addictive, getting worse the longer you are on it. It is designed solely for extremely short term use, like a few weeks. Tell your doctor to check out neurontin. It is an anti-convulsant like klonopin and non-addictive. This list of messages that you sent yours to is filled with horror stories of people who have gotten addicted to klonopin, became epilectic afterwards, suffered hearing losses and so forth. Read this list carefully. And tell you doctor to do better research. The problems with klonopin are well known. I am not some self-absorbed obsessive who can't function in life. I am a university professor at a major university, I have widely published in two disciplines and I was given klonopin to get through a very rough divorce which coincided with a difficult period professionally. Four years later I started to try to get off the drug and found that I could not. I had been on it for short periods of stress before and gotten off rather easily. But I was only on it for at most a matter of weeks at the time then. So please use caution here. I have not heard a single person who has been on it long term without some really terrible story about it, and I have heard a ton of stories and have other friends who also have had terrible experiences about it. So really. Take care. Melissa
Posted by Cam W. on March 22, 2000, at 22:35:04
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Melissa on March 22, 2000, at 21:46:20
Amanda - Low dose Klonopin, used as needed to take the edge off of anxiety is safe and effective. Some of the alarmist descriptions above are tempered with success stories. Long term use can lead to tolerance to the motor effects (drowsiness, dizziness, etc.) but not to the anti-anxiety effects. When people don't feel these side effects they sometimes believe that the drug is no longer controlling the anxiety and they then increase the dose. This is where the trouble starts. It is harder to wean oneself from larger doses taken long term. If someone has taken Klonopin daily for a long period of time, tapering is a must. I have found that those who are taking Klonopin to get high or as a way to forget their problems (instead of just using it to take the edge off of anxiety) are the people who have the hardest time withdrawing from the drug.This said, there are methods to ease one's withdrawl from high dose, long term Klonopin. Tapering of the drug should be done slowly over a couple of months at least if one has been taking the drug on a daily basis for more than a year. One tapers to a point to where they can't taper anymore without getting withdrawl effects. Then, a low dose long-acting benzodiazepine (usually Valium) can ease the symptoms. The long half-life of Valium prevents the low blood levels of Klonopin from causing the withdrawl symptoms. After one can get off the Klonopin, then the Valium can be slowly withdrawn. Valiums long half life prevents the withdrawl symptoms from being much of a problem. The problem with Valium in the 1960's was the high doses given 3 or 4 times daily. The drug built up in the body (because of the long half life) until there were liver changes and a person became physically addicted. In the scenario above, one would be using 4 or 5 mg of Valium a day (dived doses) for about a month (not much chance to build up to the levels seen in the sixties).
Ultimately, the choice of taking Klonopin is yours. Have a talk with your doctor. Write down your concerns and take them with you next time you see him. Have him address your concerns point by point. Many times a drug will not work as well if the person taking it has fears about it. Many of the above posts against Klonopin were people lashing out (maybe out of frustration; maybe they felt betrayed by their doctor - I don't know). When discussing medication, it must be done in a rational way; emotions should be curbed. I'd actually like Paul to post again, after 2 years, to see if he is still as angry as when he first posted. I don't know if I have helped alleviate your fears and I won't tell you to take Klonopin or not. You have to ultimately make that decision, others can't. Sincerely Cam W.
Posted by Melissa on March 23, 2000, at 4:18:29
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Cam W. on March 22, 2000, at 22:35:04
>
> Amanda - Low dose Klonopin, used as needed to take the edge off of anxiety is safe and effective. Some of the alarmist descriptions above are tempered with success stories. Long term use can lead to tolerance to the motor effects (drowsiness, dizziness, etc.) but not to the anti-anxiety effects. When people don't feel these side effects they sometimes believe that the drug is no longer controlling the anxiety and they then increase the dose. This is where the trouble starts. It is harder to wean oneself from larger doses taken long term. If someone has taken Klonopin daily for a long period of time, tapering is a must. I have found that those who are taking Klonopin to get high or as a way to forget their problems (instead of just using it to take the edge off of anxiety) are the people who have the hardest time withdrawing from the drug.
>
> This said, there are methods to ease one's withdrawl from high dose, long term Klonopin. Tapering of the drug should be done slowly over a couple of months at least if one has been taking the drug on a daily basis for more than a year. One tapers to a point to where they can't taper anymore without getting withdrawl effects. Then, a low dose long-acting benzodiazepine (usually Valium) can ease the symptoms. The long half-life of Valium prevents the low blood levels of Klonopin from causing the withdrawl symptoms. After one can get off the Klonopin, then the Valium can be slowly withdrawn. Valiums long half life prevents the withdrawl symptoms from being much of a problem. The problem with Valium in the 1960's was the high doses given 3 or 4 times daily. The drug built up in the body (because of the long half life) until there were liver changes and a person became physically addicted. In the scenario above, one would be using 4 or 5 mg of Valium a day (dived doses) for about a month (not much chance to build up to the levels seen in the sixties).
>
> Ultimately, the choice of taking Klonopin is yours. Have a talk with your doctor. Write down your concerns and take them with you next time you see him. Have him address your concerns point by point. Many times a drug will not work as well if the person taking it has fears about it. Many of the above posts against Klonopin were people lashing out (maybe out of frustration; maybe they felt betrayed by their doctor - I don't know). When discussing medication, it must be done in a rational way; emotions should be curbed. I'd actually like Paul to post again, after 2 years, to see if he is still as angry as when he first posted. I don't know if I have helped alleviate your fears and I won't tell you to take Klonopin or not. You have to ultimately make that decision, others can't. Sincerely Cam W.Cam
I just can not agree with you. 1 mg that I am taking is not exactly a large dosage. I have tried tapering off slowly. I have done this under the supervision of literally one of the world's leading pharmacological psychiatrists. His name is Dr. Charles Olsen and he is involved with many of the studies at NIH (National Institutes of Health.) You can look him up. I live in Baltimore near Johns Hopkins and near DC which fortumately for me gives me access to some of the leading medical people in the world.We tried reducing my dosage by 6 1/4% at a time. After two weeks the effect of even the first 6 1/4 % were intolerable for me. It led to extreme irritability, inability to sleep, hyper-activity and a complete incapacity to concentrate and barely function. It actually became unsafe for me to drive because I lost impulse control. It became impossible for me to function professionally and it became imperative that I return to my "normal" dosage of 1 mg. We have tried to find a substitute for me to be on while I was withdrawing with the intentions that I would be on some kind of blocker (I think the term was Beta Blocker) while I withdrew. But we could not find a drug that did not have intolerable side effects, the most serious being deep in my bone tiredness. In particular, we tried Celexa which is know for minimal side effects and Neurontin which is also an anti-convulsant as is klonopin and used for anxiety but known through serious medical research not to be physically addictive. Klonopin is known through serious medical reseach to be extremely physically addictive, becoming more so as one takes over time and very dangerous to get off if not done carefully. Some people never succeed getting off if they have been on it a long time.
Klonopin's anti-anxiety effects do wear off over time. It is a little insulting to the numerous reported observations by patients and doctors as to this result (not just those reported here on this list) to suggest that the patients are imagining its reduction in effectiveness due to missing the side-effects some people experience. I personally never had any side effects from klonopin while I was taking it and I know many high functioning high level professionals who report the same. It is also a little insulting to suggest that those who have been upset by what they have experienced as long term negative effects of trying to get off this drug as merely expressing frustration and taking it out on their doctors. I personally bear no ill-will towards the doctor who first put me on klonopin. He was very careful in his research (which is why I chose him) and he reported what was known at the time. He too acknowledges now, not only from the research but the large number of his clients who he put on klonopin that the research available at the time was wrong and he is dealing with a number of addicted clients. (He is no longer my doctor because I no longer live in that city but we stay in touch, having a somewhat more personal relationship than most clients and doctors do.) What you report about valium is what was reported about the advantages of klonopin over valium over 12 years ago. What you report is rather dated information. There is much more significant and more recent research on the effects of klonopin since then. I was put on klonopin the first time for exactly the reasons you cite. That it was not as addicitive as valium, which if you are familiar with valium's history was also believed to be non-addictive when it was first introduced. Klonopin was orignally believed to be non-addictive as well. It is now known otherwise.
Obviously I am not taking klonopin now for anti-anxiety reasons after ten years. It has no anti-anxiety effect on me any more. I am just physically hooked to it. At this point, unless I can go into a medical treatment center for at least one month to go through the early stages of withdrawal, my doctor and I have given up hope of my withdrawing from the drug. I do not have that time and at this point and it is not assured that one month for the early stages will be adequate. I have a fairly close friend who is 20 years younger than me, who became addicted to the klonopin quite severly after two years. She has been tapering off slowly. She was also on 1 mg. After over one year she is down to the last .25 mg and is finding it extremely difficult to tolerate the last stages of withdrawal from the drug. Apparantly, the last part is the hardest to physically tolerate. She also is under strict doctor supervision. And the risk of epileptic seizures from withdrawing are quite real and are reported side effects of the drug. Another woman I know and her sister both were put on klonopin after the sudden deth of their parents and after a number of years both went through withdrawal. They both suffered permanent damage to their hearing, a not uncommon effect of withdrawing from klonopin. When I was switched by my prescription plan to the generic of klonopin, not only did I suffer severe withdrawal symptoms but I too suffered damage to my hearing. I happened to have been tested for my hearing a couple of month before as a routine ENT check-up just before the switch to generics happened and my hearing was evaluated as above average for the population. Now I am struggling not to get a hearing aid. As my prescription plan does not cover the name brand any more, I must pay for the difference between the genric and the name brand out of my pocket, which is not inexpensive.
The conclusion by the medical profession that klonopin should only be used for short-term use is quite well known among more sophisticated medical circles. Even the manufacurer in its reports acknowledges that. Of course, I am sure one can come up with cases where there were no serious negative side effects from usage of the drug. But then so did the tobacco companies with regard to smoking cigarettes. The question is the risk one undertakes when choosing to take this drug. Whether, when the incidence of physical addiction over long term use is fairly certain, the reduction in the drug's effectiveness over time a known possible result, and the fairly high incidence of quite troublesome withdrawal from it, is worth the risk of even starting it. Particularly when there are more effective and less troublesome drugs out there, Neurontin being the most notable in functioning bio-medically the same as klonopin but without the addictive effects. I know that the reports here at this site tend to be a skewed sample, but I am reporting the results of well known research. These results are also known among the medical profession in Europe as well. (I happen to have colleagues in the medical profession in Europe as I go there to lecture in my field.) I would be careful reassuring someone that there are many success stories when there are so many that are not successful.
As I do not wish to get into a debate with you, Cam, I will not respond any further. Amanda has enough information from our exchange to be able to make an informed decision through her own efforts. There are quite a few other sites, some of which can be linked to through this site that also discuss the difficulties of taking klonopin.
Amanda, I wish you best of luck in your endeavors.
Melissa
Posted by Sherry on March 23, 2000, at 6:17:56
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Melissa on March 23, 2000, at 4:18:29
I was under the impression that Klonopin had a very long half life. The longest of any of the anti-anxiety medications. I don't know about withdrawal though because I have never become dependent on it. However, I did become dependent on xanax, and it was very difficult to withdraw. ~Sherry
>
> > Amanda - Low dose Klonopin, used as needed to take the edge off of anxiety is safe and effective. Some of the alarmist descriptions above are tempered with success stories. Long term use can lead to tolerance to the motor effects (drowsiness, dizziness, etc.) but not to the anti-anxiety effects. When people don't feel these side effects they sometimes believe that the drug is no longer controlling the anxiety and they then increase the dose. This is where the trouble starts. It is harder to wean oneself from larger doses taken long term. If someone has taken Klonopin daily for a long period of time, tapering is a must. I have found that those who are taking Klonopin to get high or as a way to forget their problems (instead of just using it to take the edge off of anxiety) are the people who have the hardest time withdrawing from the drug.
> >
> > This said, there are methods to ease one's withdrawl from high dose, long term Klonopin. Tapering of the drug should be done slowly over a couple of months at least if one has been taking the drug on a daily basis for more than a year. One tapers to a point to where they can't taper anymore without getting withdrawl effects. Then, a low dose long-acting benzodiazepine (usually Valium) can ease the symptoms. The long half-life of Valium prevents the low blood levels of Klonopin from causing the withdrawl symptoms. After one can get off the Klonopin, then the Valium can be slowly withdrawn. Valiums long half life prevents the withdrawl symptoms from being much of a problem. The problem with Valium in the 1960's was the high doses given 3 or 4 times daily. The drug built up in the body (because of the long half life) until there were liver changes and a person became physically addicted. In the scenario above, one would be using 4 or 5 mg of Valium a day (dived doses) for about a month (not much chance to build up to the levels seen in the sixties).
> >
> > Ultimately, the choice of taking Klonopin is yours. Have a talk with your doctor. Write down your concerns and take them with you next time you see him. Have him address your concerns point by point. Many times a drug will not work as well if the person taking it has fears about it. Many of the above posts against Klonopin were people lashing out (maybe out of frustration; maybe they felt betrayed by their doctor - I don't know). When discussing medication, it must be done in a rational way; emotions should be curbed. I'd actually like Paul to post again, after 2 years, to see if he is still as angry as when he first posted. I don't know if I have helped alleviate your fears and I won't tell you to take Klonopin or not. You have to ultimately make that decision, others can't. Sincerely Cam W.
>
> Cam
> I just can not agree with you. 1 mg that I am taking is not exactly a large dosage. I have tried tapering off slowly. I have done this under the supervision of literally one of the world's leading pharmacological psychiatrists. His name is Dr. Charles Olsen and he is involved with many of the studies at NIH (National Institutes of Health.) You can look him up. I live in Baltimore near Johns Hopkins and near DC which fortumately for me gives me access to some of the leading medical people in the world.
>
> We tried reducing my dosage by 6 1/4% at a time. After two weeks the effect of even the first 6 1/4 % were intolerable for me. It led to extreme irritability, inability to sleep, hyper-activity and a complete incapacity to concentrate and barely function. It actually became unsafe for me to drive because I lost impulse control. It became impossible for me to function professionally and it became imperative that I return to my "normal" dosage of 1 mg. We have tried to find a substitute for me to be on while I was withdrawing with the intentions that I would be on some kind of blocker (I think the term was Beta Blocker) while I withdrew. But we could not find a drug that did not have intolerable side effects, the most serious being deep in my bone tiredness. In particular, we tried Celexa which is know for minimal side effects and Neurontin which is also an anti-convulsant as is klonopin and used for anxiety but known through serious medical research not to be physically addictive. Klonopin is known through serious medical reseach to be extremely physically addictive, becoming more so as one takes over time and very dangerous to get off if not done carefully. Some people never succeed getting off if they have been on it a long time.
>
> Klonopin's anti-anxiety effects do wear off over time. It is a little insulting to the numerous reported observations by patients and doctors as to this result (not just those reported here on this list) to suggest that the patients are imagining its reduction in effectiveness due to missing the side-effects some people experience. I personally never had any side effects from klonopin while I was taking it and I know many high functioning high level professionals who report the same. It is also a little insulting to suggest that those who have been upset by what they have experienced as long term negative effects of trying to get off this drug as merely expressing frustration and taking it out on their doctors. I personally bear no ill-will towards the doctor who first put me on klonopin. He was very careful in his research (which is why I chose him) and he reported what was known at the time. He too acknowledges now, not only from the research but the large number of his clients who he put on klonopin that the research available at the time was wrong and he is dealing with a number of addicted clients. (He is no longer my doctor because I no longer live in that city but we stay in touch, having a somewhat more personal relationship than most clients and doctors do.) What you report about valium is what was reported about the advantages of klonopin over valium over 12 years ago. What you report is rather dated information. There is much more significant and more recent research on the effects of klonopin since then. I was put on klonopin the first time for exactly the reasons you cite. That it was not as addicitive as valium, which if you are familiar with valium's history was also believed to be non-addictive when it was first introduced. Klonopin was orignally believed to be non-addictive as well. It is now known otherwise.
>
> Obviously I am not taking klonopin now for anti-anxiety reasons after ten years. It has no anti-anxiety effect on me any more. I am just physically hooked to it. At this point, unless I can go into a medical treatment center for at least one month to go through the early stages of withdrawal, my doctor and I have given up hope of my withdrawing from the drug. I do not have that time and at this point and it is not assured that one month for the early stages will be adequate. I have a fairly close friend who is 20 years younger than me, who became addicted to the klonopin quite severly after two years. She has been tapering off slowly. She was also on 1 mg. After over one year she is down to the last .25 mg and is finding it extremely difficult to tolerate the last stages of withdrawal from the drug. Apparantly, the last part is the hardest to physically tolerate. She also is under strict doctor supervision. And the risk of epileptic seizures from withdrawing are quite real and are reported side effects of the drug. Another woman I know and her sister both were put on klonopin after the sudden deth of their parents and after a number of years both went through withdrawal. They both suffered permanent damage to their hearing, a not uncommon effect of withdrawing from klonopin. When I was switched by my prescription plan to the generic of klonopin, not only did I suffer severe withdrawal symptoms but I too suffered damage to my hearing. I happened to have been tested for my hearing a couple of month before as a routine ENT check-up just before the switch to generics happened and my hearing was evaluated as above average for the population. Now I am struggling not to get a hearing aid. As my prescription plan does not cover the name brand any more, I must pay for the difference between the genric and the name brand out of my pocket, which is not inexpensive.
>
> The conclusion by the medical profession that klonopin should only be used for short-term use is quite well known among more sophisticated medical circles. Even the manufacurer in its reports acknowledges that. Of course, I am sure one can come up with cases where there were no serious negative side effects from usage of the drug. But then so did the tobacco companies with regard to smoking cigarettes. The question is the risk one undertakes when choosing to take this drug. Whether, when the incidence of physical addiction over long term use is fairly certain, the reduction in the drug's effectiveness over time a known possible result, and the fairly high incidence of quite troublesome withdrawal from it, is worth the risk of even starting it. Particularly when there are more effective and less troublesome drugs out there, Neurontin being the most notable in functioning bio-medically the same as klonopin but without the addictive effects. I know that the reports here at this site tend to be a skewed sample, but I am reporting the results of well known research. These results are also known among the medical profession in Europe as well. (I happen to have colleagues in the medical profession in Europe as I go there to lecture in my field.) I would be careful reassuring someone that there are many success stories when there are so many that are not successful.
>
> As I do not wish to get into a debate with you, Cam, I will not respond any further. Amanda has enough information from our exchange to be able to make an informed decision through her own efforts. There are quite a few other sites, some of which can be linked to through this site that also discuss the difficulties of taking klonopin.
>
> Amanda, I wish you best of luck in your endeavors.
>
> Melissa
Posted by Cam W. on March 23, 2000, at 7:17:17
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Sherry on March 23, 2000, at 6:17:56
Sherry - Clonazepam (+ active metabolites) does have a longer half life than most benzodiazepines (18 - 72 h), but it is still half that of Diazepam (+ its metabolites). I would bet (but not much - I do not have proof) that many of the people who are having problems withdrawing from Clonazepam are of the faster metabolizing group. Yes, the books state that all benzodiazepines "should" be used short term, but in the real world this luxury is not practical. If we could find a non-addicting (esp psychologically), non-sedating, and effective anxiolytic, no one would be happier than me. But we do have to work with the tools that we are given. Unfortunately, everyone's body is physiologically different and if someone has significant aberations (eg easier downregulated or upregulated GABA receptors or changes in the GABA receptor complex) in the GABA-ergic system, yes, benzodiazepines can cause havoc in the bodys and minds of these people. The only way we can tell if someone is going to have a reaction is to have them take the drug and sometimes unfortunate incidents occur (this is true for any drug). That is the risks of medication. I will never say someone should or shouldn't take a certain medication. I believe that all options must be weighed and an informed choice made by the person taking the drug. I hope I haven't stepped on too many toes and I am sorry a number of people have had bad experiences with Clonazepam, but many, many others haven't. Sincerely - Cam W.
Posted by Amanda S on March 23, 2000, at 15:13:34
In reply to generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Amanda S on March 22, 2000, at 19:05:06
I have tried almost every mood stabilizing drug and I have been very sensitive to them. Headaches,exhaustion,out to lunch,depressed,shakey,you name it. I am at my wits end. Lamictal and xanax .25mg at night. Don't have a problem going days without the xanax. All the horrible stories about the klonopin really bothers me, but it has a longer life than the zanax. I really need an anti-anxiety so I won't constantly think about dying. I tried some kind of drug that helps that, but I was out to lunch on that one. I took .25mg half pill of klonopin last night and I didn't think about dying. I certainately don't want to kill myself I am just preoccupied with how I may die, cancer, horrible car crash, hit on the head. These thoughts constantly are on my mind. I try to distract myself, but it just doesn't work. Just constant worry. My 15 year old is learning to drive and I don't think I will be able to live with the fact that he will be driving on his own soon, here I come Charter.
Posted by harry b. on March 23, 2000, at 20:38:27
In reply to Re: generic version of klonopin CAM W help, posted by Cam W. on March 22, 2000, at 20:49:23
>
>.25mg is a nice, low dose. Hope this helps - Cam W.
Whoa. I've been taking 2mg for 5yrs. My new dose
is 4mg.
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