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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by johnturner77 on May 31, 2000, at 15:51:36
I recently ran across a study that said there was a AD effect from DHEA(Dehydroepiandrosterone,) the mostly harmless OTC hormone that is supposed to slow aging. The mechanism of action wasn't known for the AD effect. The AD effect seemed to take longer than SSRI's as short term studies(2 weeks) showed no AD effect. Testosterone has some MAOI effects as certain KamiKaze bodybuilders have found out. I wonder if DHEA might function as an MAOI also. I looked around for studies and only found one that correlated higher blood pressure with naturally elevated DHEA levels. A fairly crude assessment could be made of the MAOi effect by taking DHEA for a few weeks then challenging your system with tyramine or maybe just aged cheese. If there was some elevation (or perhaps a lot of elevation?)in your blood pressure it would constitute a smoking gun. Has anyone out there tried DHEA for depression? It seems to have some potential particularly in older people. I decided to try it after failing to get a useful response from yet another AD(EFfexor this time) Its been too short a time to tell if it will be helpful.
Posted by AndrewB on May 31, 2000, at 18:33:09
In reply to OTC MAOI ??, posted by johnturner77 on May 31, 2000, at 15:51:36
> I recently ran across a study that said there was a AD effect from DHEA(Dehydroepiandrosterone,) the mostly harmless OTC hormone that is supposed to slow aging. The mechanism of action wasn't known for the AD effect. The AD effect seemed to take longer than SSRI's as short term studies(2 weeks) showed no AD effect. Testosterone has some MAOI effects as certain KamiKaze bodybuilders have found out. I wonder if DHEA might function as an MAOI also. I looked around for studies and only found one that correlated higher blood pressure with naturally elevated DHEA levels. A fairly crude assessment could be made of the MAOi effect by taking DHEA for a few weeks then challenging your system with tyramine or maybe just aged cheese. If there was some elevation (or perhaps a lot of elevation?)in your blood pressure it would constitute a smoking gun. Has anyone out there tried DHEA for depression? It seems to have some potential particularly in older people. I decided to try it after failing to get a useful response from yet another AD(EFfexor this time) Its been too short a time to tell if it will be helpful.
John,An MAOI mode of antidepressant action for DHEA doesn't seem likely. I've never heard it suggested. I take large doses of 7-Keto DHEA which is basically DHEA that does not convert into sex hormones. I have not experienced any tyramine effect with it. DHEA certainly act as an antidepresant for some people by raising testosterone levels. It also may work for some by antagonism of the negative effects of coritsol.
Note that DHEA may increase the risk of tumors (i.e prostate) growth. Long term use should be accompanied by monitoring of DHEA levels. It is claimed that DHEA is virtually devoid of side effects if DHEA levels are monitored to insure that exceesive supplementation does not take place.
AndrewB
Posted by SLS on June 1, 2000, at 10:40:44
In reply to Re: OTC MAOI ??, posted by AndrewB on May 31, 2000, at 18:33:09
> An MAOI mode of antidepressant action for DHEA doesn't seem likely. I've never heard it suggested. I take large doses of 7-Keto DHEA which is basically DHEA that does not convert into sex hormones. I have not experienced any tyramine effect with it. DHEA certainly act as an antidepresant for some people by raising testosterone levels. It also may work for some by antagonism of the negative effects of coritsol.
Andrew – Doesn’t St. John’s Wort inhibit MAO?
- Scott
Posted by AndrewB on June 1, 2000, at 12:33:53
In reply to Re: OTC MAOI ??, posted by SLS on June 1, 2000, at 10:40:44
Scott,
St. John's inhibits the reuptake of dopamine, serotonin, and NE in equal proportions but the mechanism of this inhibition is unknown. MAO inhibition as a mechanism in part, while not ruled out, seems unlilely.
BTW Scott, the more I read, the more I think your adverse reaction to rebox. was due toNE stimulation other than that of the alpha 1 andrenergic receptor. This would mean adrafinil should not cause the nasty depression and anxiety in you, but would have the potential to help relieve your fatigue.
I've found your posts on Nardil, Parnate and augmentation very interesting.
I've found St. Johns to be pleasently uplifting. Trying entacapone, the COMT inhibitor, now.
AndrewB
Posted by forth meg on June 1, 2000, at 13:26:03
In reply to OTC MAOI ??, posted by johnturner77 on May 31, 2000, at 15:51:36
You know, I've always been baffled by whole DHEA/testosterone as an antidepressant thing, because I've had abnormally high DHEA and testosterone all my life (adrenal hyperfunction). At one point it was so high that my endocrinologist was concerned I had cancer.
But it's never seemed to protect me against serious depression, and MAOIs are the only medication that help my depression - so if testosterone acted like an MAOI you'd think that I wouldn't need to be on MAOIs.
The other thing is - women with polycystic ovarian disease - don't they have high testosterone too? And aren't they notoriously depressed?
Anyone have any insight?
> I recently ran across a study that said there was a AD effect from DHEA(Dehydroepiandrosterone,) the mostly harmless OTC hormone that is supposed to slow aging. The mechanism of action wasn't known for the AD effect. The AD effect seemed to take longer than SSRI's as short term studies(2 weeks) showed no AD effect. Testosterone has some MAOI effects as certain KamiKaze bodybuilders have found out. I wonder if DHEA might function as an MAOI also. I looked around for studies and only found one that correlated higher blood pressure with naturally elevated DHEA levels. A fairly crude assessment could be made of the MAOi effect by taking DHEA for a few weeks then challenging your system with tyramine or maybe just aged cheese. If there was some elevation (or perhaps a lot of elevation?)in your blood pressure it would constitute a smoking gun. Has anyone out there tried DHEA for depression? It seems to have some potential particularly in older people. I decided to try it after failing to get a useful response from yet another AD(EFfexor this time) Its been too short a time to tell if it will be helpful.
Posted by johnturner77 on June 1, 2000, at 14:13:03
In reply to DHEA, testosterone, PCOS and depression....?, posted by forth meg on June 1, 2000, at 13:26:03
> You know, I've always been baffled by whole DHEA/testosterone as an antidepressant thing, because I've had abnormally high DHEA and testosterone all my life (adrenal hyperfunction).
High levels are a relative term. I assume you are a woman, guessing from your alias. High for a woman would still be low for a man. Adrenal hyperfunction may mean excessively high cortisol levels. This could cause your depression. One of the proposed antidepressant actions of DHEA is that is helps lower cortisol levels. It may not be sufficient in your case. A MAOI effect for DHEA was a wild guess on my part. If it has any at all it is very mild apparently. Testosterone's MAOI effect is relatively mild. Apparently it does contribute to lower incidences of depression in men compared to women. The Bodybuilders who have experienced manic episodes while on high taking high levels of Testosterone were taking 10 to 20 times what normal males have.
Posted by anita on June 2, 2000, at 15:58:13
In reply to Re: DHEA, testosterone, PCOS and depression....?, posted by johnturner77 on June 1, 2000, at 14:13:03
I actually _developed_ PCOS, high testosterone (a marker for PCOS), and high growth hormone levels after taking an MAOI (nardil) for three years. Three months after discontinuing nardil, I no longer had these syndromes. Interestingly, nardil was the only AD that ever worked well for me.
anita
> > You know, I've always been baffled by whole DHEA/testosterone as an antidepressant thing, because I've had abnormally high DHEA and testosterone all my life (adrenal hyperfunction).
>
Posted by SLS on June 2, 2000, at 17:41:40
In reply to Re: SLS, posted by AndrewB on June 1, 2000, at 12:33:53
> BTW Scott, the more I read, the more I think your adverse reaction to rebox. was due toNE stimulation other than that of the alpha 1 andrenergic receptor.
I agree with you. Beta - anxiety vs propanolol.
I would really like to know what you found that steered you in this direction.
> This would mean adrafinil should not cause the nasty depression and anxiety in you, but would have the potential to help relieve your fatigue.
This is razor-sharp. Thank you.
> I've found St. Johns to be pleasently uplifting. Trying entacapone, the COMT inhibitor, now.
I imagine you've already checked out compatibility. It looks pretty safe to me.
I double-checked:
There doesn't seem to be any untoward autonomic effects when entacapone is added to l-dopa, imipramine, desipramine, deprenyl, or moclobemide. I thought these combinations might equate with the actions of St. John's Wort as you have described them.
Entacapone seems to exaggerate the cardiac effects of stimulants, bronchodilators, adrenalines, and other sympathomimetics; it increases heart rate and blood pressure. However, I don't know enough about St. John's Wort to speculate if any such reaction would be potentiated by it. Entacapone accelerates the excretion of sodium. I can't comment on the degree or significance of any of this.
Good luck, pal. I just prayed for you. I hope you don't mind. :-)
- Scott
This is the end of the thread.
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