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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tina on June 12, 2000, at 16:41:48
Hi all: I was just wondering if avoidant personality disorder is just a symptom of anxiety/depression or if it is a disorder in it's own right?
Posted by AndrewB on June 13, 2000, at 2:58:38
In reply to Avoidant personality disorder, posted by tina on June 12, 2000, at 16:41:48
> Hi all: I was just wondering if avoidant personality disorder is just a symptom of anxiety/depression or if it is a disorder in it's own right?
It is a disorder in its own right. It is closely associated with social phobia. However it is generally considered more severe, that is, the avoidant pers. has little social functioning, very withdrawn.
Posted by Theresa Pye on June 13, 2000, at 6:56:20
In reply to Re: Avoidant personality disorder, posted by AndrewB on June 13, 2000, at 2:58:38
I have Avoidant personality disorder too. I don't have any real social anxiety problems, I go in public, go to school, etc. I just tend to to try to avoid certain situations. For example conflict or confrontation with other people. I do tend to be more withdrawn though, and often would prefer no contact with anyone outside of my family.
Theresa
> > Hi all: I was just wondering if avoidant personality disorder is just a symptom of anxiety/depression or if it is a disorder in it's own right?
>
> It is a disorder in its own right. It is closely associated with social phobia. However it is generally considered more severe, that is, the avoidant pers. has little social functioning, very withdrawn.
Posted by Cindy W on June 13, 2000, at 8:48:38
In reply to Re: Avoidant personality disorder, posted by Theresa Pye on June 13, 2000, at 6:56:20
> I have Avoidant personality disorder too. I don't have any real social anxiety problems, I go in public, go to school, etc. I just tend to to try to avoid certain situations. For example conflict or confrontation with other people. I do tend to be more withdrawn though, and often would prefer no contact with anyone outside of my family.
> Theresa
> > > Hi all: I was just wondering if avoidant personality disorder is just a symptom of anxiety/depression or if it is a disorder in it's own right?
> >
> > It is a disorder in its own right. It is closely associated with social phobia. However it is generally considered more severe, that is, the avoidant pers. has little social functioning, very withdrawn.As another avoidant personality, I just wanted to say that not all are social phobic; I have to work with people all day, and I feel so tired, from worrying about what everybody's thinking and whether I'm doing OK, sometimes, that I think about becoming a computer programmer or something instead. It's not that we don't want or like contact with others, but that it's draining, because of the anxiety about our social functioning, I think (do they like me? do they think I'm strange? etc.). This has decreased for me with (in the past) Serzone and (now) Effexor-XR, although it isn't completely gone.
Posted by KarenB on June 13, 2000, at 15:02:00
In reply to Re: Avoidant personality disorder, posted by Cindy W on June 13, 2000, at 8:48:38
Hi everybody,
I was just talking about this with a friend yesterday and I asked her, where do different personality types come into all of this? I mean, not everyone is SUPPOSED to be as social as the next guy. Some are introverts and it is perfectly OK. Being "afraid" is a different matter, I am sure, but for instance, I have absolutely no use whatever for weddings, banquets (ugh!), parties and dancing (it's not a judgement - I don't think it's wrong to do or anything - I just don't GET IT!) and I have to REALLY love someone to go to their wedding. I am not especially phobic of other people, it's just too much stimuli and at the same time bores me to distraction. After a wedding (WHY do they have to last ALL DAY???) I feel as if I need to sleep for two days straight. I can't because I have children but that's what I would like to do. Is this my ADD?
So, my question is,(hard to discern, huh?)isn't it OK to not LOVE social interaction? Even to avoid it? I would think that a "disorder" would mean that you are dysfunctional because of your avoidance? But, there again, no one knows I suffer depression unless I tell them, so some unknowing may argue how dysfunctional I am as a result of depression.
Clue me in. I'm just really not aware of this disorder and so far it sounds a lot like social phobia to me.
Karen
Posted by afatchic on June 13, 2000, at 20:52:41
In reply to Avoidant personality disorder, posted by tina on June 12, 2000, at 16:41:48
> Hi all: I was just wondering if avoidant personality disorder is just a symptom of anxiety/depression or if it is a disorder in it's own right?
Ah ha! Avoidant Personality Disorder, so that's what I have. I never knew there was a special name for it. I'm not shy, I just don't usually like to be around other people. I'm even good at public speaking.
Sometimes, I think my avoidance comes from being able to see through other people too easily. They can be so petty. Office politics can be especially frustrating and draining. Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get me. You folks in Babble Land make me feel so normal :-) Thanks!
Posted by Janice on June 13, 2000, at 22:14:44
In reply to Re: Avoidant personality disorder, posted by KarenB on June 13, 2000, at 15:02:00
I'm having a hard time discerning between depression and avoidant personality disorder. Maybe the avoidant personality disorder is when you still have the anti-social feelings but no depression?
Karen B,
Same deal with weddings. Although I've never put it together before, I think it is ADD. Though there is alot of stimulation for your senses, you're spending your time doing things like making small talk and waiting for something to happen (yawn). Stimuli and boredom are a painful combination. To avoid this, I used to get really drunk and make a complete a*s of myself. Took care of the boredom, plus no one tried to small talk to me afterwards.just kidding (last 2 sentences),
Janice
Posted by KarenB on June 13, 2000, at 23:18:53
In reply to Re: Avoidant personality disorder--Karen, posted by Janice on June 13, 2000, at 22:14:44
> I'm having a hard time discerning between depression and avoidant personality disorder. Maybe the avoidant personality disorder is when you still have the anti-social feelings but no depression?
Have you ever felt like that? I just quietly disappear and don't want to see or talk to anyone when depressed but I'm reasonably friendly and outgoing when not. I've always considered it part of the depression.
> Karen B,
> Same deal with weddings. Although I've never put it together before, I think it is ADD. Though there is alot of stimulation for your senses, you're spending your time doing things like making small talk and waiting for something to happen (yawn). Stimuli and boredom are a painful combination. To avoid this, I used to get really drunk and make a complete a*s of myself. Took care of the boredom, plus no one tried to small talk to me afterwards.
>
> just kidding (last 2 sentences),
>
> JaniceJanice,
You're very funny...and I'll bet you're not kidding!
Since I stopped drinking like that(long, long time ago...), weddings and parties - especially company parties when I was working (oh, the torture...)- are perhaps the only activities that have just not gotten any better for me. In fact, I dislike "events" SO much that I planned my own wedding in four days, inviting only immediate family and grandparents. It was great! Beautiful. Just what I wanted and I didn't have to smile and kiss 200 people. Now, THAT is worth avoiding!:) Afterwards, we had a wonderful dinner at our favorite French restaurant for everyone. That was 14 years ago and I have NEVER regretted not having the "gala affair" and being "queen for a day." I actually had a great time at my own wedding - many women I know didn't because of the incredible stress of planning a party for 250 or so people and wanting everything to be "perfect." Geez, who really needs THAT?! Truthfully, if it weren't for family and consideration of their feelings, I wouldn't have invited anyone at all! Is that
"avoidant?" I don't think so - if so, it's never hurt me to be that way so I guess it's normal - for me.Karen
Posted by Janice on June 15, 2000, at 23:32:08
In reply to Re: Avoidant personality disorder--Karen, posted by KarenB on June 13, 2000, at 23:18:53
Karen, ditto with the staff parties. Oh, the lies I've come up with in the past--I've probably attended 50% of the ones that I should have. Getting drunk and making an as* of myself there was never possible/acceptable.
Kissing 200 people is worth avoiding Karen. Which brings me to a semi-new topic (well in the ADD range). Do you hate touching people or having people touch you? I grew in a large extended French family who always kissed and hugged and shook hands and grabbed cheeks and touched and poked each other even during a conversation. I'm wondering if this is an ADD thing--disliking being touched so much. I mean just the thought of kissing 200 people starts nauseaous feelings in my stomach.
Janice
ps I probably wouldn't have been invited to your wedding, but I would have gone.
No, this does not sound avoidant to me at all!
Posted by Sara T on June 16, 2000, at 1:13:34
In reply to ADD --Karen, posted by Janice on June 15, 2000, at 23:32:08
> Kissing 200 people is worth avoiding Karen. Which brings me to a semi-new topic (well in the ADD range). Do you hate touching people or having people touch you? I grew in a large extended French family who always kissed and hugged and shook hands and grabbed cheeks and touched and poked each other even during a conversation. I'm wondering if this is an ADD thing--disliking being touched so much. I mean just the thought of kissing 200 people starts nauseaous feelings in my stomach.
I'd like to weigh in on this topic with what may seem like something coming from left field. My son has Asperger's Syndrome which is a very high functioning form of autism. So I read up alot of that literature. And some of it suggests that there is a continuum of this disorder that fades at its most mild end into personality quirks and people who are ill at ease socially. The milder end of that autistic spectrum has only been recognized recently (Asperger's Syndrome was only included in the DSM IV in 1994) and in the past people with very mild presentations were dx'd with things like ADD, Avoidant Personality, or even Schizoid Personality and Atypical Schizophrenia.
In fact, some even suggest that ADD is a part of the autistic spectrum at that very milder end because many ADD symptoms overlap and people with ADD are notoriously socially inept (I am one example of that) because they don't pay attention to social cues. Personally, I don't agree with that because autistics simply don't recognise social cues at all. It is like a foriegn language to them. Whereas ADDers when they are focused, can read cues.
However, some of the things I've learned about autistics are very applicable to people with ADD. For instance, sensory hypersentivity to touch, texture (clothing for example), noise levels, and light levels are common in kids with both ADD and Autism. Resistance to change, and difficulty making transitions from one activity to another are common to both. SOCIAL SKILLS TRAINING as well as SENSORY INTEGRATION therapy is also part of a multimodal therapy approach for both groups.
Now the sensory thing is something I think adults don't give enough attention to in their own environments. Why? Because we're supposed to be able to handle it. But it wasn't until I discovered my own ADD that I realised that much of the discomfort I felt in certain situations was due to too much sensory input (overstimulation) and I was at those times almost high and I must not have made much sense to anyone around me, kind of like a child that's overstimulated and can't stop being silly!
I used to drink at social functions to ease my discomfort too. Anxiety about social ineptness and overstimulation took over and I always felt I couldn't handle it unless I could drink to relax.
I'd agree that sensory sensitivity to touch is pretty common among ADDers. I would make sense that if your brain can't tune out the incoming stims that you could be hypersensitive to tactile input.
Just some thoughts. I hope I didn't intrude here, its 2 am and I'm avoiding sleep.
Sara T.
BTW, anybody ever read a book called SHADOW SYNDROMES?
Posted by Cindy W on June 16, 2000, at 10:14:43
In reply to Re: ADD --Karen, posted by Sara T on June 16, 2000, at 1:13:34
> > Kissing 200 people is worth avoiding Karen. Which brings me to a semi-new topic (well in the ADD range). Do you hate touching people or having people touch you? I grew in a large extended French family who always kissed and hugged and shook hands and grabbed cheeks and touched and poked each other even during a conversation. I'm wondering if this is an ADD thing--disliking being touched so much. I mean just the thought of kissing 200 people starts nauseaous feelings in my stomach.
>
> I'd like to weigh in on this topic with what may seem like something coming from left field. My son has Asperger's Syndrome which is a very high functioning form of autism. So I read up alot of that literature. And some of it suggests that there is a continuum of this disorder that fades at its most mild end into personality quirks and people who are ill at ease socially. The milder end of that autistic spectrum has only been recognized recently (Asperger's Syndrome was only included in the DSM IV in 1994) and in the past people with very mild presentations were dx'd with things like ADD, Avoidant Personality, or even Schizoid Personality and Atypical Schizophrenia.
>
> In fact, some even suggest that ADD is a part of the autistic spectrum at that very milder end because many ADD symptoms overlap and people with ADD are notoriously socially inept (I am one example of that) because they don't pay attention to social cues. Personally, I don't agree with that because autistics simply don't recognise social cues at all. It is like a foriegn language to them. Whereas ADDers when they are focused, can read cues.
>
> However, some of the things I've learned about autistics are very applicable to people with ADD. For instance, sensory hypersentivity to touch, texture (clothing for example), noise levels, and light levels are common in kids with both ADD and Autism. Resistance to change, and difficulty making transitions from one activity to another are common to both. SOCIAL SKILLS TRAINING as well as SENSORY INTEGRATION therapy is also part of a multimodal therapy approach for both groups.
>
> Now the sensory thing is something I think adults don't give enough attention to in their own environments. Why? Because we're supposed to be able to handle it. But it wasn't until I discovered my own ADD that I realised that much of the discomfort I felt in certain situations was due to too much sensory input (overstimulation) and I was at those times almost high and I must not have made much sense to anyone around me, kind of like a child that's overstimulated and can't stop being silly!
>
> I used to drink at social functions to ease my discomfort too. Anxiety about social ineptness and overstimulation took over and I always felt I couldn't handle it unless I could drink to relax.
>
> I'd agree that sensory sensitivity to touch is pretty common among ADDers. I would make sense that if your brain can't tune out the incoming stims that you could be hypersensitive to tactile input.
>
> Just some thoughts. I hope I didn't intrude here, its 2 am and I'm avoiding sleep.
>
> Sara T.
>
> BTW, anybody ever read a book called SHADOW SYNDROMES?
Sara T., I read "Shadow Syndromes" and thought it was pretty good.
BTW, I'm socially anxious probably to the point of being an Avoidant Personality. My parents weren't "touchy" and I still shy away when friends try to hug me or touch my arm or whatever because I just didn't grow up that way. I have to remember to "reach out and touch" my significant other because he's not like that and likes hugs, holding hands, etc. Part of the problem for me has always been the self-statements ("they won't like me," "I look stupid," etc.). I'm overaware of people's cues I think to the point of reading in rejection where there may not even be any.
Posted by Janice on June 18, 2000, at 17:35:13
In reply to Re: ADD --Karen, posted by Sara T on June 16, 2000, at 1:13:34
Hi Sara,
Very interesting Sara. Thanks for sharing it. I remember my psychiatrist and I chatting about the possibility of Asperger's syndrome about 5 years ago. We quickly dismissed it, as for except for what I've written here that would support it, I am almost the complete opposite of Asperger's Syndrome. I love change, am very social (when not under the rampages of depression) wrote poetry and have always worked in design. My pdoc seemed to think this cancelled me out for Asperger's Syndrome.
I do have an uncle with this, and funny enough 3 (my mother) out of 4 of this sisters have ADD - so it definately must be related in some families. I bet alot of people out there have been misdiagnosed with ADD or something else, when it should have been Asperger's.
Good luck Sara and thanks again, Janice
Posted by Sara T on June 18, 2000, at 22:35:32
In reply to Asperger's and ADD - Sara, posted by Janice on June 18, 2000, at 17:35:13
> Hi Sara,
>
> Very interesting Sara. Thanks for sharing it. I remember my psychiatrist and I chatting about the possibility of Asperger's syndrome about 5 years ago. We quickly dismissed it, as for except for what I've written here that would support it, I am almost the complete opposite of Asperger's Syndrome. I love change, am very social (when not under the rampages of depression) wrote poetry and have always worked in design. My pdoc seemed to think this cancelled me out for Asperger's Syndrome.
>
> I do have an uncle with this, and funny enough 3 (my mother) out of 4 of this sisters have ADD - so it definately must be related in some families. I bet alot of people out there have been misdiagnosed with ADD or something else, when it should have been Asperger's.
>
> Good luck Sara and thanks again, JaniceThanks Janice,
If I may be so nosey, what kind of design work do you do? I ahve a degree in art and also in architecture (where to "big" bucks are).
Actually, some AS people are very sociable, just inappropriately so. I don't mean to imply that anyone here has ADD or AS unless they tell us that, but I do find it interesting how it can shade into normal ranges of personality quirks.
Sara T.
Posted by Janice on June 19, 2000, at 0:10:30
In reply to Re: Asperger's and ADD - Sara, posted by Sara T on June 18, 2000, at 22:35:32
Hi Sara,
My career's consistency has been kind of sketchy due to all my mental health problems, but I started out in fashion, then worked some in advertising and am currently working in graphics. I did a paper on the green revolution in architecture--I loved that class.
Design would be great field for someone with your education.I couldn't have Asperger's. God couldn't be that cruel. I already have bipolar, ADHD, trichotillomania and have had a few other disorders in the past. I'm not at all literal or factual. It probably doesn't come across on the bulletin board, but in real life, I love to laugh at everything--especially myself. I am generally very well socially skilled -- except when there is too much structure and I can't be natural or the stimuli is too much. Yes, it is interesting how it shades into normal ranges.
If I sound defensive it could be because I probably am. Whenever I read about any disorders (they can be physical or mental) I always am thoroughly convinced I have whatever I'm reading. Right now, just thinking about Asperger's, I can feel my ridiculous heart beating in my throat. If I was doing my own diagnosing, I'd have been dead years ago.
What is very interesting is the connection between Asperger's and ADHD. You pointed that out to me Sara. I was previously unaware of it even though my uncle has AS and his sisters have ADHD. And you have ADD and your son has AS. Do you remember when the ADD diagnosis was first becoming popular, and only little aggressive boys who were bouncing off the walls got a diagnosis? Do you think that perhaps they haven't recognized a female version of AS, or perhaps that it is a type of ADD?
Glenn Gloud was a great man. I wish he didn't die so young. I wonder if all those eggs killed him? I used to work right by where he lived.
Take care, Janice
Posted by Sara T on June 19, 2000, at 10:12:30
In reply to Re: Asperger's and ADD - Sara, posted by Janice on June 19, 2000, at 0:10:30
> Hi Sara,
>
> My career's consistency has been kind of sketchy due to all my mental health problems, but I started out in fashion, then worked some in advertising and am currently working in graphics. I did a paper on the green revolution in architecture--I loved that class.
> Design would be great field for someone with your education.
>
> I couldn't have Asperger's. God couldn't be that cruel. I already have bipolar, ADHD, trichotillomania and have had a few other disorders in the past. I'm not at all literal or factual. It probably doesn't come across on the bulletin board, but in real life, I love to laugh at everything--especially myself. I am generally very well socially skilled -- except when there is too much structure and I can't be natural or the stimuli is too much. Yes, it is interesting how it shades into normal ranges.
>
> If I sound defensive it could be because I probably am. Whenever I read about any disorders (they can be physical or mental) I always am thoroughly convinced I have whatever I'm reading. Right now, just thinking about Asperger's, I can feel my ridiculous heart beating in my throat. If I was doing my own diagnosing, I'd have been dead years ago.
>
> What is very interesting is the connection between Asperger's and ADHD. You pointed that out to me Sara. I was previously unaware of it even though my uncle has AS and his sisters have ADHD. And you have ADD and your son has AS. Do you remember when the ADD diagnosis was first becoming popular, and only little aggressive boys who were bouncing off the walls got a diagnosis? Do you think that perhaps they haven't recognized a female version of AS, or perhaps that it is a type of ADD?
>
> Glenn Gloud was a great man. I wish he didn't die so young. I wonder if all those eggs killed him? I used to work right by where he lived.
>
> Take care, JaniceJanice,
Although the ratio of boys to girls manifesting AS and other forms of PDD's is higher for the boys, girls do have AS just as well. They may show it differently because, females are inherently more socially adept than males. They may not have the social problems or aggressive acting out that boys do early on, and therefore the social deficits don't become so obvious until later. Same story with ADD, many females are more likely to get passed over because they aren't hyperactive. Have you read Sari Solden's ADD AND WOMEN ? But with AS, the deficits are more glaring.
I am the inattentive, mildly ADD type. My husband fit the AS profile more (he's a university professor) but on the Shadow Syndrome side. My five year old daughter, I suspect may have some learning problems and ADD, and she has some shadings of her brother's behavior. She is very anxious and today I am taking her to an Anxiety and Phobia Clinic to have her assessed.
We should be a post family for psychopharmaceuticals!
Ciao!
Sara T.
Posted by Janice on June 19, 2000, at 23:12:03
In reply to Re: Asperger's and ADD - Sara, posted by Sara T on June 19, 2000, at 10:12:30
I have read Sari Solden's ADD AND WOMEN, and thought it was great. All I could think of was how many women out there think they are depressed when then probably have ADD, with some depression.
It's very funny your husband grew up to be a big professor. I hope he has great insurance to pay for the family's psychopharmaceuticals. I imagine it's nerve wracking to have children with these disorders, not knowing where they will advance to, or what you can do to slow the disorders down.
Well it's been fun, informative and interesting Sara
My uncle is sooooo odd. I could fill pages about his eccentricities. He also has many wonderful qualities - generous to a fault and loyal.
take care, Janice
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