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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Louise on September 1, 1999, at 18:08:51
In reply to Re: Hi Sean, posted by Sean on August 30, 1999, at 12:05:40
Creative when 'up' and not when down? Me too. I write songs complete with music and lyrics in about 15 minutes and inspiration frequently strikes when I'm (fortunately predominantly) up.
When I'm down I sort out the bills and balance my bank account and organise my life, but there's no creativity there.A warning to anyone who enjoys their highs is that lithium can supress your creativity too - It did for me. If you can manage your mood without it, great.
I have found an effective way of avoiding depression which is to take a tranquiliser at night (I use chlorpromazine) if I'm up to the pooint of the bursting, creative mind preventing me from sleeping. This stops the high getting too high, and the low which usually balances out on the mood scale is then never bad at all, in fact I can keep myself going by activity. Even though this is hard work sometimes, I don't get so low I can't do it. If I can continue to manage my mood in this way, then I'm happy!
PS Talking of music, I went to the V99 UK music festival a week or so ago to see Manic Street Preachers, Suede, Supergrass, Beautiful South, Stereophonics, Mercury Rev, Travis etc. etc.
Then I was high!
Posted by yardena on September 1, 1999, at 18:23:31
In reply to Cyclothymic music / creativity, posted by Louise on September 1, 1999, at 18:08:51
I am impressed that you can sort, organize and do bills when you are down. I can't manage to do much of anything.
Posted by Sean on September 2, 1999, at 15:40:32
In reply to Cyclothymic music / creativity, posted by Louise on September 1, 1999, at 18:08:51
> Creative when 'up' and not when down? Me too. I write songs complete with music and lyrics in about 15 minutes and inspiration frequently strikes when I'm (fortunately predominantly) up.
> When I'm down I sort out the bills and balance my bank account and organise my life, but there's no creativity there.
>
> A warning to anyone who enjoys their highs is that lithium can supress your creativity too - It did for me. If you can manage your mood without it, great.
>
> I have found an effective way of avoiding depression which is to take a tranquiliser at night (I use chlorpromazine) if I'm up to the pooint of the bursting, creative mind preventing me from sleeping. This stops the high getting too high, and the low which usually balances out on the mood scale is then never bad at all, in fact I can keep myself going by activity. Even though this is hard work sometimes, I don't get so low I can't do it. If I can continue to manage my mood in this way, then I'm happy!
>
> PS Talking of music, I went to the V99 UK music festival a week or so ago to see Manic Street Preachers, Suede, Supergrass, Beautiful South, Stereophonics, Mercury Rev, Travis etc. etc.
>
> Then I was high!Hey Louise -
I can relate to the mood-music connection. I feel
my best work is done on the cusps of my moods,
either right when I'm about to plung or feeling
the first glimmers of light after a long period
of darkness. I write more when I'm hypomanic,
but I'm not convinced it has the same ring of
truth and rawness; it can become more complex
than necessary.What kind of music do you write?
Also, sleep is a big part of the mood swing deal
isn't it. My God, when I'm hyped up I can go for
weeks on 3-4 hours a night and then it gets all
fucked up or something. Anxious and paranoid,
then lots of sleep and no hope. An even sleep
schedule helps this.Sounds like a cool trip to V99. How was Suede?
Do you like Stereolab? I'm into everything that
pushes the edges...Sean.
Posted by Sean on September 2, 1999, at 15:42:51
In reply to Re: Cyclothymic music / creativity, posted by yardena on September 1, 1999, at 18:23:31
> I am impressed that you can sort, organize and do bills when you are down. I can't manage to do much of anything.
Hi Yardena,
Me too on the down side - not much use to anybody
cause by brain feels like it won't work. I've
seen PET scans of depression and it really does
feel like it looks in the pictures.How are things?
Sean.
Posted by Yardena on September 3, 1999, at 17:45:38
In reply to Re: Cyclothymic music / creativity, posted by Sean on September 2, 1999, at 15:42:51
Sean,
Things are better for the most part, but still dragging, especially in reaction to "stuff" that happens. When at work, I am fine these days. At home (long holiday weekend, especially) it is hard.
BTW, what do the PET scans of depressed brains look like?
Posted by Louise on September 5, 1999, at 14:09:38
In reply to Re: Cyclothymic music / creativity, posted by Yardena on September 3, 1999, at 17:45:38
Hi Sean
What you said about the change of mood being the creativity trigger was really interesting. The last few songs I've written (mainly rock / guitar stuff although I play the piano myself and write using the piano) have come to me when I've been upwardly inspired by lack of sleep and lots of loud music and then it was suddenly peaceful on the train on the way home. The sudden peace and relaxation when feeling really tired .....and they just kept flowing. The other was when I was feeling pretty up and then something upset me a bit, brought back memories, made a link to Shakespeare line then.........song. I've never noticed before that it's a sudden emotional or environmental change that inspires me - GOOD OBSERVATION !!!!
Suede were great. I was right at the front near the stage in a crowd of about 40,000 I think. I love the track Savoir Faire from the Head Music album. 'Saturday Night' was also really good.
By the way, can you or do you do anything to calm down your up moods or do you just let them ride?
Louise
Posted by Sean on September 7, 1999, at 17:13:53
In reply to Re music - Sean, posted by Louise on September 5, 1999, at 14:09:38
> Hi Sean
>
> What you said about the change of mood being the creativity trigger was really interesting. The last few songs I've written (mainly rock / guitar stuff although I play the piano myself and write using the piano) have come to me when I've been upwardly inspired by lack of sleep and lots of loud music and then it was suddenly peaceful on the train on the way home. The sudden peace and relaxation when feeling really tired .....and they just kept flowing. The other was when I was feeling pretty up and then something upset me a bit, brought back memories, made a link to Shakespeare line then.........song. I've never noticed before that it's a sudden emotional or environmental change that inspires me - GOOD OBSERVATION !!!!
>
> Suede were great. I was right at the front near the stage in a crowd of about 40,000 I think. I love the track Savoir Faire from the Head Music album. 'Saturday Night' was also really good.
>
> By the way, can you or do you do anything to calm down your up moods or do you just let them ride?
>
> LouiseSOunds like a cool concert. I just read an interview
with Suede and their producer about the song
Savoir Faire - it was quite complex and involved.Managing moods is really tough for me as AD's
pump me up after a few weeks (artificially) and
so I'm currently treating downs with Zoloft, and
when it get's too intense I back off and get
some solid sleep for a few days. It isn't a great
solution so I'm going to start a non-lithium
mood stabilizer this month. My docs been out of
the office, so I've been waiting to do this for
several weeks. Kind of spooked by the side
effects, but am also tired of bouncing off the
walls (or am I??? hee hee!)Be well - Sean.
Posted by Sean on September 7, 1999, at 17:19:49
In reply to Re: Cyclothymic music / creativity, posted by Yardena on September 3, 1999, at 17:45:38
> Sean,
>
> Things are better for the most part, but still dragging, especially in reaction to "stuff" that happens. When at work, I am fine these days. At home (long holiday weekend, especially) it is hard.
> BTW, what do the PET scans of depressed brains look like?The PET scans of a depressed person appear to
have very little color and what is there looks
kind of bluish. These are artificial colors that
relate to glucose activity (the old brain pretty
much runs on pure sugar...) When I'm depressed I
simply can't *think*; when I'm hypomanic I can't
stop thinking! The hypomanic brain is all lit up
like a christmas tree. These images look pretty much
like it feels. I saw them in the book "Manic
Depressive Illness" by Kay Jamison. This book,
by the way, is incredible and I recommend either
looking at it in the library, or flat out buying
it (I think I paid about $70 at Amazon) because
there is so much information in it you will want
to read all of it and have it as a reference.Bye!
Sean.
Posted by nora scott on June 2, 2000, at 20:22:24
In reply to Sean/andrewb and Susan. Hints for your down days!, posted by Cynthia on August 8, 1999, at 23:35:52
I need to buy dexedrine. My doctor prescribed
it for me, but my older brother stole them all
and my parents won't listen to me when I told them what happened to it. Does anyone know how I can buy dexedrine tablets? If you have any ideas, please let me know. xxxthanks
Posted by courtney on June 15, 2000, at 12:47:17
In reply to Cyclothymia & mood stabilizers, posted by andrewb on August 7, 1999, at 10:33:51
I was wondering if you could give me any information on non-drug treatments for cyclothymia
Posted by Janice on June 15, 2000, at 23:14:57
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers, posted by courtney on June 15, 2000, at 12:47:17
> I was wondering if you could give me any information on non-drug treatments for cyclothymia
Hi courtney,
Anything that would help bipolar would help cyclothymia--and you may have a much better chance of succeeding with cyclothymia than someone with bipolar would.
The Omega oils would be a good start. I remember once reading a naturopathic book about bipolar, and it had quite a few suggestions and recommendations for supplements (calcium and magnesium was one). I'd suggest getting a book like this. Sorry, I can't remember the name of the book I read. Maybe ask a naturopath or check out a health food store.
The best of luck, Janice.
Hopefully your disorder won't progress and you won't need meds.
And if you discover anything great, please come back and let me know.
Posted by SLS on June 18, 2000, at 19:40:25
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers, posted by Janice on June 15, 2000, at 23:14:57
> > I was wondering if you could give me any information on non-drug treatments for cyclothymia
>
> Hi courtney,
>
> Anything that would help bipolar would help cyclothymia--and you may have a much better chance of succeeding with cyclothymia than someone with bipolar would.
>
> The Omega oils would be a good start. I remember once reading a naturopathic book about bipolar, and it had quite a few suggestions and recommendations for supplements (calcium and magnesium was one). I'd suggest getting a book like this. Sorry, I can't remember the name of the book I read. Maybe ask a naturopath or check out a health food store.
>
> The best of luck, Janice.
>
> Hopefully your disorder won't progress and you won't need meds.
>
> And if you discover anything great, please come back and let me know.
A friend of mine who has bipolar disorder is playing around with chromium picolinate. Do you know anything about it?
- Scott
Posted by Janice on June 20, 2000, at 0:06:22
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers, posted by SLS on June 18, 2000, at 19:40:25
> A friend of mine who has bipolar disorder is playing around with chromium picolinate. Do you know anything about it?
>
Sorry Scott, no.
>
Janice.
Posted by judy1 on June 21, 2000, at 17:47:23
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers, posted by SLS on June 18, 2000, at 19:40:25
Hi Scott,
I fooled around with chromium picolinate a couple of years ago because supposedly people were having success with it as a fat burner, and we all know how those psychotropic meds can put the pounds on. Anyway it made me feel real jittery, which is probably not a real good response in someone with bipolar disorder. But everyone's brain chemistry is different I guess. Take care.
Posted by Libby on June 27, 2000, at 17:57:42
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers - SLS, posted by Janice on June 20, 2000, at 0:06:22
Scott (?) said...
>A friend of mine who has bipolar disorder is >playing around with chromium picolinate. Do you >know anything about it?Chromium Picolinate is supposed to increase levels of the amino acid L-tryptophan which is supposed to increase serotonin. That's one of the reasons a glass of warm milk or a turkey sandwich can make you feel cozy & sleepy.
There's an article at:
http://www.teamplatinum.com/neuro.html
that offers a discussion of amino supplements as an alternative to drug therapy for ADD.
Later...
L.
Posted by Ella Iverson on September 21, 2000, at 15:06:46
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia & mood stabilizers, posted by Sean on August 7, 1999, at 13:51:22
Sean -
Hope you are still reading this. I have been diagnosed with cyclothymia/bipolarII and they are trying to put me on lithium. I have oh SO many questions. you said that it made you feel strange? you mean drugged? would love to know the details of your experiences.
ella
> > Does anybody have experience with medicating or counseling for soft cycling? I have some cycling going on that may or may not fit the definition for cyclothymia.
> > The cycles usually last from 6 days to two weeks. In the down portion of the cycle symptoms include lower physical energy, lower mood, increased sensitivity to pain (esp. neck aches) increased social anxiety and sleeping more. In the up portion of the cycle I sleep less; I have good mood with occassional euphoria; good energy and at times ‘crazy’ energy; a sometimes flighty, overactivated mind; and a more talkative, outgoing manner.
> > I’m curious if anyone has experience with taking a mood stabilizer for soft cycling, for example, valproate, lithium or gabapentin? Is the mood stabilizer taken at a lower dosage than it would be taken for a manic depressive condition? How long would it take for a mood stabilizer like gabapentin to become fully effective? What mood stabilizer has the lowest side effects?
> > Is there a cognitive aspect to this seemingly physical condition that can be helped through counseling? Can for example personality issues such as low self-esteem and social anxiety contribute to cycling?
> > Any responses to this post would be very much appreciated.
>
> This sounds like me - except my cycle is about
> 1 month (opposite pole every 2 -weeks) and is
> pretty intense. This mood "ripple" seems to be
> on top of a longer cycle which seems seasonal, so
> I get some wild times when things pile up.
>
> I had some luck with lithium, but it made me feel
> very strange. To be honest, I really enjoy the ups
> and have settled into a pattern of treating the
> depressions with Zoloft and backing off when I get
> hypomanic. It seems like a couple nights of sleep
> puts me back on the ground.
>
> I've been putting off trying the mood stabilizers
> because of all the side effects reported (everything
> from Stephens-Johnson syndrome, to depressed
> blood counts and somnolescence - yuk) but from
> what I have read, Lamactil seems to have good
> antidepressant activity and may be good at both
> ends of the spectrum.
>
> Sleep is somehow connected to all of this. I've
> read alot about interrupting your sleep cycle when
> depressed (i.e., setting the alarm to get up early)
> and this makes sense because antidepressants seem
> to make this happen on their own (until I can't
> sleep at all!).
>
> If I try lamactil I will definitely post my
> experience. On the other hand, I'm a songwriter
> and musician, so mood swings are part of the
> deal for me. I suffer alot when I'm not on meds,
> but I also burn the white hot soul iron into some
> meaningful places with my moods. It is hard to
> find and maintain a good balance.
>
> For me, these cycles have proven completely
> immune to therapy (years of it) and the only thing
> that impacts them are meds. I have been able to
> grow in my understanding of my moods through
> therapy, but I can't honestly say they have stopped
> what seems to be an organic dysregulation of
> some sort. So as for this being a "personality"
> trait, well, isn't your "personality" a biological
> epiphenomenon too?
>
> Some days my mind is racing, litteraly erupting
> with ideas and energy. Other days I can't remember
> my phone number. It is hard work dealing with
> this...
>
> Sean.
Posted by Janice on September 22, 2000, at 16:44:16
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers, posted by Ella Iverson on September 21, 2000, at 15:06:46
hello Ella,
these are my best guesses to your questions: You sound like you are doing some pretty clean cycling.
> > > I’m curious if anyone has experience with taking a mood stabilizer for soft cycling, for example, valproate, lithium or gabapentin? Is the mood stabilizer taken at a lower dosage than it would be taken for a manic depressive condition?
I think this would depend on the individual's specific needs. I'd doubt the doses would be much lower, if they were lower at all.
How long would it take for a mood stabilizer like gabapentin to become fully effective?
don't know about gabapentin, but lithium started working in about 3 days for me. Often bipolar people need more than one medication, usually 2 or 3.
What mood stabilizer has the lowest side effects?
Again Ella, this depends on the how the medication interacts with the individual. I do very well on lithium and topamax, but these medications can make other people feel nauseaus and exhausted.
> > > Is there a cognitive aspect to this seemingly physical condition that can be helped through counseling? Can for example personality issues such as low self-esteem and social anxiety contribute to cycling?
I really really really doubt low self-esteem and social anxiety could contribute to cycling. They are probably a result of having untreated bipolar disorder for so long. They were for me!
I'm not a professional Ella. This is all coming from my personal experience of trying to get better from this illness for the past 6 years. If you have any other questions, please ask. You have very clean cycles. Janice
Posted by Tamarasue on December 31, 2000, at 1:35:05
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers, posted by Ella Iverson on September 21, 2000, at 15:06:46
I don't know if this will help anyone. But I have recently been diagnosed with Cyclothymia. I'd never hear of it before. 10 years ago, The only thing anyone ever heard of was bypolar disorder. I thought I was a rapid bypolar...but was told that I must have been reading myself wrong because there was no such thing. Two weeks ago I had enough (so had my husband) and decided to be reevaluated for depression. THat's when this cyclothymia thing came up. I can't tell you how much better I felt that there was not olny a name for my emotions, but that if there is a name, then there is a treatment plan.
The thing that was strange to me, is that instead of being put on a medecine that is used for a mood disorder, I have been put on one for seizers. IT's called Topamax (some I hear call it Dumbamax). Has anyone taken this med? Please let me know how it went. It's good to see that there are others out there. Thanks...Tammy
Posted by nora scott on May 12, 2001, at 15:56:49
In reply to I need to buy more dexedrine , posted by nora scott on June 2, 2000, at 20:22:24
This is still the case as of May 2001, so xxx
thanks!
Posted by Heidi Garraghty on August 2, 2001, at 11:47:46
In reply to Cyclothymia & mood stabilizers, posted by andrewb on August 7, 1999, at 10:33:51
Apparently, people have had very good experiences with Wellbutrin for this, 150 mg at the low dose, since it helps with the depression but does not spur manic episodes, although in your case, that doesn't sound as if it would be too bad.
Wellbutrin is the lightest of the drugs, I think. From a clinical perspective, its most serious side effect, seizures, is only a concern for individuals who have a history of anorexia and bulemia. Even so, there are some alternative viewpoints out there that suggest any of these drugs, including Wellbutrin, have serious effects with certain people--including extreme mood alteration--and you don't, of course, know if you're one until you start taking it. Doctors may be insufficiently educated or open-minded to patient reports of such changes, so it's a risk-filled choice.
It sounds to me as though your symptoms are very mild and probably aid you (in your mild mania) more than you are hindered (in your mild depression), so is it really necessary to medicate into a plateau?
Posted by Sheree73 on August 27, 2001, at 9:31:30
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers, posted by Heidi Garraghty on August 2, 2001, at 11:47:46
I have just been diagnosed with Cyclothymic disorder. When I read the description of this diagnosis, I allmost expected to see a picture of me...or at least my name. It is accurate.
I've been battling with mood instability for years but recently it's been getting out of hand. I have major crying jags, loss of motivation, extreme bouts of sadness & loneliness and severe insomnia (with nightmares if & when I do sleep).
Last week I saw an intelligent & perceptive psychiatrist for the 1st time. She's the one who diagnosed me & she prescribed Neurontin (& Ambien for the insomnia).
Neurontin is a mood stabilizer. Effexor, an antidepressant seemed to have no positive effect-my symptoms of depression skyrocketed.
It's way too early to tell since I've taken Neurontin for less than a week now but I actually felt some degree of relief within 24hrs. This is great! It took months to determine that Effexor was a failure!
I'm still a bit concerned that "stabilizing" my moods will take away too much of the elation/joy/euphoria that I have enjoyed. But the trade off - bouts of what feels like - severe depression are too much for me.
Good luck in finding what works for you. I hope this is helpful or at least interesting to anyone out there who's suffering or knows anythone who is.
Posted by ThatGuyJohn on September 7, 2001, at 17:05:40
In reply to Cyclothymia & mood stabilizers, posted by andrewb on August 7, 1999, at 10:33:51
Hey. I've been looking around for info on this subject as well. My condition is essentially major depression with hypomania. Like a lot of you here, I sort of came to enjoy the highs. I make a living in a creative field, and I think that tendency toward mild mania has helped me at times.
Now here's my question: I first came to see my shrink when I was really in a hole, and suicidal. We talked for a while and he suggested that I may have a cyclical problem, but without any tendency toward really dangerous full-blown mania.
He prescribed Wellbutrin, which from everything I've been reading, can activate mania. But it really evened me out. The depression was soon under control to the point that talk therapy could do me some good, but I didn't feel any of the mania that I have since learned is typical of this drug.
Since then, a few years ago, I have had some anxiety attacks, so we added Celexa and Trazodone to the mix. That combination in particular seems to have a very sedating effect, and I feel a lot less "spikey" the day after.
Anybody else have an experience like mine, stabilizing on simple anti-ds?
Posted by SalArmy4me on September 8, 2001, at 3:26:43
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers, posted by ThatGuyJohn on September 7, 2001, at 17:05:40
A doc on Psychopharmacology Tips says bipolars (and probably cyclothymics too) do well on Wellbutrin:
From Psychopharmacology Tips: http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/split/Possible-indications-of-bi.html
From: LJGROLD@aol.com (L.James Grold M.D.)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 20:40:31 -0500
Subject: Possible indications of bipolarityI have come to the same conclusion on several patients with recurrent depressions starting in adolescence. I also have found in such patients that venlafaxine and buproprion with a mood stablizer like divalproex to be very helpful in smoothing out the moods and in preventing more cycles.
Posted by ThatGuyJohn on September 8, 2001, at 11:51:52
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers » ThatGuyJohn, posted by SalArmy4me on September 8, 2001, at 3:26:43
Hey, thanks for that link, Sal. I am very new to this site, and just beginning to get a sense of the resources available here.
I kinda questioned the logic of taking a straight anti-d when I have that tendency to swing up. But my best friend's little brother was treated with an activating drug for his attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. This kid was a bundle of energy to begin with -- but on the meds he actually evened out.
And I had the same immediate, really good response to Wellbutrin that the doc describes. In less than a week, I felt fantastic. I chalked it up to a placebo response then. Uh-oh... :-)
So, BPs have a uniquely screwy chemistry, different from depressives? I don't know a lot about biochemistry, but am I right in drawing that conclusion? (And "screwy" probably isn't a diagnostic term, right?)
I am sober, no recreational drugs or booze for 9 years, but a pal gave me a couple Klonopin for a very long flight. And it did nothing to sedate me. Maybe I'll just down a handful of speed next time, and I'll be out like a light.JUST KIDDING!
Posted by lostsailor on September 16, 2001, at 17:14:24
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers, posted by ThatGuyJohn on September 8, 2001, at 11:51:52
Hey, here's a little info. Of the newer anti-depressents, only Wellburerin is really indicated often in the literature. Often, people with bp are given an ad only during a depressive episode and than taken off when it subsides or resolves it self. My doc, and I did the wellbutin/ celexa thing for quite a while, but I am also kept on a mood stabelizer (currently Neurontin)
As for Trazadone, I had a doc once tell me that he would not give to a dog. My shrink prescribes it often for sleep and I used it for a year , but could no longer tolerate the "hangover" I would have in the morning. I tried a bunch of meds for insomnia and found that benadryl worked the best. I told him that and wrote a script for aterax (both aterax and visteral are the same a benadral and are give to some for anxiety)so my insurence would cover the cost. Hope this was a help! In Peace, ~Tony> Hey, thanks for that link, Sal. I am very new to this site, and just beginning to get a sense of the resources available here.
>
> I kinda questioned the logic of taking a straight anti-d when I have that tendency to swing up. But my best friend's little brother was treated with an activating drug for his attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. This kid was a bundle of energy to begin with -- but on the meds he actually evened out.
>
> And I had the same immediate, really good response to Wellbutrin that the doc describes. In less than a week, I felt fantastic. I chalked it up to a placebo response then. Uh-oh... :-)
>
> So, BPs have a uniquely screwy chemistry, different from depressives? I don't know a lot about biochemistry, but am I right in drawing that conclusion? (And "screwy" probably isn't a diagnostic term, right?)
>
> I am sober, no recreational drugs or booze for 9 years, but a pal gave me a couple Klonopin for a very long flight. And it did nothing to sedate me. Maybe I'll just down a handful of speed next time, and I'll be out like a light.
>
> JUST KIDDING!
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