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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by PaulB on July 25, 2001, at 18:24:15
I was wondering if anyone had found estrogen to be useful as an augmentation strategy to enhance response to an antidepressant. Ive read that estrogen may be seroternergic.
Has anyone had any experience with it and can say whether it is helpful. Is there the possibility of mania or cycling whilst using it?
Posted by Zo on July 25, 2001, at 19:35:11
In reply to Is estrogen helpful?, posted by PaulB on July 25, 2001, at 18:24:15
> I was wondering if anyone had found estrogen to be useful as an augmentation strategy to enhance response to an antidepressant. Ive read that estrogen may be seroternergic.
> Has anyone had any experience with it and can say whether it is helpful. Is there the possibility of mania or cycling whilst using it?
>I fell into a deep depression, with all other meds in place, when my estrogen level, unbeknownst to me, slipped to half of normal. Took a month on increase to get back up.
Haven't noticed any cycling attributable, but YMMV.
Zo
Posted by susan C on July 25, 2001, at 22:36:59
In reply to Re: Is estrogen helpful? » PaulB, posted by Zo on July 25, 2001, at 19:35:11
Estrogren is a proconvulsant, progesterone and anticonvulsant, so if seizures are a concern my understanding is estrogen could trigger them.
> > I was wondering if anyone had found estrogen to be useful as an augmentation strategy to enhance response to an antidepressant. Ive read that estrogen may be seroternergic.
> > Has anyone had any experience with it and can say whether it is helpful. Is there the possibility of mania or cycling whilst using it?
> >
>
> I fell into a deep depression, with all other meds in place, when my estrogen level, unbeknownst to me, slipped to half of normal. Took a month on increase to get back up.
>
> Haven't noticed any cycling attributable, but YMMV.
>
> Zo
Posted by Angelique on July 26, 2001, at 21:11:26
In reply to Is estrogen helpful?, posted by PaulB on July 25, 2001, at 18:24:15
I think it would work! My depression is partly because of a LACK of estrogen. People suffering menopause are given estrogen to reduce symptoms
I have to take depo provera for endoemtriosis and it's progersterone and no estrogen and can cause depression. So I have to take neurontin now to counteract my hormonal moodswings.
Posted by Gracie2 on July 27, 2001, at 2:37:48
In reply to Re: Is estrogen helpful?, posted by Angelique on July 26, 2001, at 21:11:26
Hormones are nothing to screw around with. I recommend a book called 'Super "T"' by Dr. Karlis
Ullis, ("the most up-to-date information on nonprescription supplements including androstendione), a terrific book for the layman on estrogen/testosterone-enhancing supplements.
Bookstores will order it for you if it's not in stock.
-Gracie
Posted by Lorraine on July 27, 2001, at 11:43:54
In reply to Is estrogen helpful?, posted by PaulB on July 25, 2001, at 18:24:15
> I was wondering if anyone had found estrogen to be useful as an augmentation strategy to enhance response to an antidepressant
I was menopausal and found estrogen helped with my cognitive abilities. Estrogen dominance, however, can lead to panic attacks. So I am thinking of adding progesterone when I next see my doctor.
Posted by PaulB on July 27, 2001, at 12:23:40
In reply to Re: Is estrogen helpful?, posted by Lorraine on July 27, 2001, at 11:43:54
> > I was wondering if anyone had found estrogen to be useful as an augmentation strategy to enhance response to an antidepressant
>
> I was menopausal and found estrogen helped with my cognitive abilities. Estrogen dominance, however, can lead to panic attacks. So I am thinking of adding progesterone when I next see my doctor.PaulB
Progesterone seems like a good idea because it makes GABA receptors more responsive to this neurotransmitter and people report a calming effect when using it.
Continuing on with estrogen discussion it is my understanding that estrogen may help some depressives by inhibiting the MAO enzyme(A) that breaks down serotonin(as well as norepinephrine and dopamine) but also 'desensitises' serotonin receptors making serotonin receptors more responsive to the neurotransmitter. Therefore, it has been argued that the down-regulation process that can take weeks with antidepresssants may be quicker when estrogen is augmented. There is also a great body of evidence that suggests that estrogen may benefit people with depression. One study showed that people who were given fluoxetine with and without estrogen showed much greater response with the combination therapy.My interest in estrogen stems from my experience with the amino acid L-Tryptophan. Unlike L-Tyrosine which worked wonders for my depression with SAM-E was remarkably consistent in its effects and did not cause mood imbalances. L-Tryoptophan does not work as well and I thought estrogen may be a useful aid.
Posted by dave_fox on July 28, 2001, at 11:11:04
In reply to Re: Is estrogen helpful?, posted by Gracie2 on July 27, 2001, at 2:37:48
> Hormones are nothing to screw around with.
> I recommend a book called 'Super "T"' by Dr.
> Karlis Ullis, ("the most up-to-date nformation
> on nonprescription supplements including
> androstendione), a terrific book for the
> layman on estrogen/testosterone-enhancing
> supplements.Gracie2, you are damn right that hormones are not to be screwed around with. There seems to be a huge body of opinion that we are all lacking in thyroid hormones, testosterone, estrogen, etc.
Some people do have a clinical lack of one of the hormones (me for example with testosterone which is why I got into this subject in the first instance). But so many web sites seem to suggest that we almost all lack one of the hormones.
Please not that I have NO problem at all with people trying to achieve supra-physiological or supra-psychological states but provided they can be maintained!. A quick boost is not really a treatment. But there is so much crap talked about some of this stuff. As I said, testosterone is my area of interest and I have found that there is so very little good professional clinical data on this hormone to start with, so that it is simply astonishing to see so much unfounded advice being given in such a conclusive way in books, on web sites, in newsapapers and magazines.
One example - does supplemental testosterone raise or lower blood pressure? Hmmm. Not quite so easy to answer. For each paper proving YES there is one to be found saying NO.
For those interested in a recent debate about testosterone (and the male menopause) here is a link.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7238/858
All this is not quite as off-topic as it seems because my shrink wants to see the effect of testosterone on my depression. But that is another discussion!
dave
Posted by KarenB on July 28, 2001, at 12:22:06
In reply to Is estrogen helpful?, posted by PaulB on July 25, 2001, at 18:24:15
> I was wondering if anyone had found estrogen to be useful as an augmentation strategy to enhance response to an antidepressant. Ive read that estrogen may be seroternergic.
> Has anyone had any experience with it and can say whether it is helpful. Is there the possibility of mania or cycling whilst using it?
>Paul,
I found estrogen to be destabilizing (mania, cycling) for me BUT progesterone cream in the three weeks before my period actually works to stave off some seriously ugly PMS with resulting mixed states (I am Bipolar). I get it in the health food store. Call me crazy but it has worked. I was willing to try anything.
Are you asking for a woman you know...or for yourself? Are you looking for depression relief or are you exploring your feminine side? ;) Just curious.
KarenB
P.S. Are you Paul in Loveland?
Posted by Gracie2 on July 28, 2001, at 19:10:26
In reply to Re: Is estrogen helpful? - testosterone » Gracie2, posted by dave_fox on July 28, 2001, at 11:11:04
Oh, no way would I claim to be any kind of expert on hormones. (I just read a lot.) The only reason I recommended the book is because it does make one aware of just how complicated endocrinology is, or in other words, how confusing and potentially dangerous it can be for the uninformed to use steroids or even prohormone supplements (which he calls "T-boosters"), now legally available OTC.
For example, the author explains that there are three different classes of T-boosters and that each class is further subdivided into several types.
The first class, testosterone precursors, convert to testosterone in the body via a single chemical step. This class includes androstenedione, the prohormone used by Mark McGuire. (Go Cards.) It is effective for weight loss and muscle gain, but may actually decrease sexual desire by converting to estrogen instead of testosterone. A second type of testosterone precursor, 4-androstenediol,
does not convert to estrogen and is more effective than androstenedione at boosting testosterone levels. However, it is more expensive and the author warns that toxicity and long-term studies are not available on
4-androstenediol.
A second class of T-boosters, nor-testoserone precursors, is a favorite of body-builders. It's anabolic (muscle growth) ratio is estimated to be 10 times stronger than its androgenic (masculinizing and sexual-enhancing) ratio. However, it can lower HDL (good) cholestorol levels and have cardiovascular risks. It will also shut down your natural testosterone production if taken for a long time without periodic breaks. One type of prohormone in this class, nor-4-androstenediol, is believed to be the most potent bodybuilding and fat-loss
T-booster available, but it may decrease libido to the point of making you asexual.
A third class, called phyto- and pseudo-T-boosters, claim to increase muscle mass and libido. Most of these products are made of herbs and plant extracts and are not true
pro-testosterone hormones. They include tribulus terrestris, chrysin, ipriflavone, and 7-Keto-DHEA.
While the doctor discusses the health advantages of these and other herbs or supplements which may
increase libido, including minerals, amino acids
and plant extracts like damiana and yohimbine,
he is obviously leery of recommending them for the purposes of sexual enhancement. Instead, he recommends different "cocktails" of prohormones for both males and females after an evaluation of your life style, health and the desired effect you wish to achieve through supplementation (muscle mass, fat loss, sexual energy).Sorry if this is too much information! I thought the book was fascinating.
Also, I have been waiting for my daughter to get out of the bathroom :-/
-Gracie
Posted by dave_fox on July 29, 2001, at 6:13:38
In reply to Re: Is estrogen helpful? - testosterone Dave, posted by Gracie2 on July 28, 2001, at 19:10:26
Hi Grace2
Thanks for your reply. I thought it was interesting.
> Oh, no way would I claim to be any kind of expert
> on hormones. (I just read a lot.)Oh! I do hope I haven't aid something which makes you need to be slightly defensive! < g >
It is interesting to read another set of ideas about testosterone supplementation. You are quite right to point out that the precursors to T can be valuable. There is also the mode of administration to consider as different routes of the same supplement can be important (eg dermal patches or injection. And different rates of administration are important too as the body has its own rhythms which need to be respected. (T release is pulsatile.)
It has been remarked that testosterone is one of those supplements which has some of the largest range of types (or esters) which can lead to considerable confusion. Also there is the aromatization to estrogen by peripheral tissues has been well covered many times here by MarkinBoston and this is another important factor and is sometimes related to mode of administration.
> The only reason I recommended the book is because
> it does make one aware of just how complicated
> endocrinology is, or in other words, how confusing
> and potentially dangerous it can be for the uninformed
> to use steroids or even prohormone supplements
> (which he calls "T-boosters"), now legally available OTC.Yes, I do agree. And as Oscar Wilde once said, “I am not young enough to know everything”. < s > In the same way, a little knowledge can be very misleading in this field and I do worry that the popular texts are promoting a gospel which is far from proven. Do take a look at the link I posted in my earlier message for an example of this http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7238/858
One of the better books I have come across on the subject is called TESTOSTERONE edited by Nieschlag & Behre (publ. Springer). I would caution you that here in the UK this is an expensive volume and costs about £60 (approx $100) and much of its content is deep and rather recondite endocrine biochemistry. However, it is written by leading authorities and whatever can be gleaned from it can be taken as being very well-considered.
> Sorry if this is too much information! I thought the
> book was fascinating.Not at all too much! Thanks for the info.
Dave
Posted by PaulB on July 29, 2001, at 11:59:54
In reply to Re: Is estrogen helpful? » PaulB, posted by KarenB on July 28, 2001, at 12:22:06
> > I was wondering if anyone had found estrogen to be useful as an augmentation strategy to enhance response to an antidepressant. Ive read that estrogen may be seroternergic.
> > Has anyone had any experience with it and can say whether it is helpful. Is there the possibility of mania or cycling whilst using it?
> >
>
> Paul,
>
> I found estrogen to be destabilizing (mania, cycling) for me BUT progesterone cream in the three weeks before my period actually works to stave off some seriously ugly PMS with resulting mixed states (I am Bipolar). I get it in the health food store. Call me crazy but it has worked. I was willing to try anything.
>
> Are you asking for a woman you know...or for yourself? Are you looking for depression relief or are you exploring your feminine side? ;) Just curious.
>
> KarenB
>
> P.S. Are you Paul in Loveland?I was asking for myself. I know, estrogen is used for women and am not looking to explore feminine side. At time of posting I was just curious. Glad to see people could help and appreciate the warnings which I was partly aware of beforehand . No I am not Paul in Loveland.
PaulB
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