![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1532 to 1556 of 10407. Go back in thread:
Posted by ZeKingPrawn on January 5, 2002, at 16:08:08
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!!, posted by Dolphin on January 3, 2002, at 0:13:09
What a coincidence that this is some sort of pyramid marketing scheme.
> Well I wasn't gonna put this out here, but here goes.
>
> I’ve had depression my entire life. I have always been sad. I didn’t want to be around people, because when I was around people I was very quiet and people thought I was strange. I wasn’t strange, I just had absolutely no interest in life.
>
> I’ve suffered from Bulimia and Anorexia since was 18 years old, I am now 30. Also at 18 I attempted suicide by taking a bottle of sleeping pills, needless to say my stomach was pumped. Not long there after I cut my wrist. I was a very very unhappy person. I have suffered as an alcoholic for the last few years and before that I had become addicted to cocaine and crack. I had stopped crack and cocaine, long before I quit drinking. When I became pregnant with my son is when I stopped drinking. However, after my son stopped nursing I picked up the bottle again to attempt dealing with stress, depression, and the pressure of being a single mother.
>
> Over the years, I didn’t realize that Alcohol made my life worse. I became a drunk and I made a complete fool of my self many many times. To make matters worse, I was raped (twice) by so-called friends. I had no control over what was happening to me, I just wasn’t strong enough. I am sure the alcohol had a lot to do with that. After the second time, I knew I had to quit.
>
> I had tried several different medications to help me cope with my problems over the years. However, none of them worked. Then my doctor put me on Effexor. What a nightmare that turned out to be.
>
> After I recovered from Effexor, I was determined to never touch another medication again. Then, I remembered a product that I was referred to about 3 ½ years ago. I had remembered when I took it I felt great. However, now I think back and I think that I got used to the fact that I felt great, and unfortunately, I stopped taking it thinking that I didn’t need it. My mistake was, I had forgotten how I felt before I began taking it.
>
> It didn’t even click that my depression, anxiety, and the ability to cope with stress, had been greatly improved from taking it. The only reason I started taking it in the first place was because everyone was talking about it and I thought I would try it. So I did. But again, I stopped taking it and I didn’t realize how much it actually was helping me. I once again became a very sick person and didn’t realize that I was once better.
>
> I fell back into the trap of depression, anxiety, and the ability to not be able to cope with stress. I had completely forgotten about the product. It was only a little over a month ago that remembered what the product had done for me.
>
> I asked the person that referred me 3 ½ years ago for the companies number and I ordered the product in hopes that it would help me. Now I have resumed the use of the product and I can see a huge difference in how I feel and how my body functions on a day-to-day basis. I have not thrown up any food since I have been taking this product nor have I starved myself of any food. I do not drink anymore, and I am not depressed anymore. I am feeling great.
>
> I realized what a wonderful product it really is and I’ve started giving it to my son on a daily basis. My son will definitely never go through what I went through as a child and as an Adult.
>
> When I first posted Suffering From Effexor, someone emailed me and asked me questions. One of the things I said to her was “I am making it one of my life goals to help people that are going through the same things that I have went through”. Well my follow-up message to Suffering From Effexor was one of my first steps in doing this. However, I can’t believe that it took me so long to post a follow-up message as I had the answer all along.
>
> The product is called Body Balance. The company is Life Force International. You can look them up on www.lifeforce-intl.com. It dosn't give in detail the ingredients of Body Balance. However, I will say that it contains every vitamin, mineral, enzyme, amino acid, and bioflavinoid that is known to mankind. It is not a pill form, it is a liquid form. Liquid form is absorbed by the body up to 98%. Pill forms of nutrients are only absorbed by the body 10 to 20%. If you would like the breakdown of all 121+ nutrients, send me an e-mail. This product has everything the body needs to sustain life and function properly. I beleive it has saved my life.
Posted by Ron Hill on January 5, 2002, at 16:14:18
In reply to Effexor Ex and Nicotine Patch HELP, posted by NatA on January 3, 2002, at 19:19:51
Nat A,
I also recently used the patch to quit smoking and I take medication (600 mg/day Lithobid) to treat bipolar disorder. The rage I experienced during this time was very scary. My poor wife!
Here is my layman's partial interpretation of what might have caused my foul mood: As I understand it, nicotine affects the level of norepinephine in the brain (perhaps the main reason people continue to smoke). As changes in nicotine blood levels occur due to smoking cessation activities, norepinephine levels are also affected (at least temporarily).
As an aside, even if nicotine blood levels are held constant, the particular type of nicotine delivery system (i.e. patch vs. smoke inhalation) also seems to influence the nicotine/norepinephine biochemical interaction. I might be wrong on this one but it sure seemed like it to me?
Getting back on topic, I personally think my rage mood was a function of the serotonin/norepinephine balance in my brain rather than just the raw quantity of norepinephrine.
My pdoc and I successfully treated this rage condition by adding a small amount of an SSRI (25 mg Zoloft). As I had fully anticipated, based on my prior experiences with other SSRI's (Prozac and Paxil), my rage mood disappeared on the first day of the low dose Zoloft trial. However, even at this extremely low dose, Zoloft rendered me totally unmotivated, void of enthusiasm, and emotionless after just one week of the trial.
This also did not surprise me since Paxil and Prozac had the same effect. SSRI's turn me into what my wife affectionately refers to as her "do nothing boy". In my "SSRI brain chemistry state" I'm content and peaceful with no hint of rage, but the most I can motivate myself to do is veg out on TV 24/7.
So I took myself off the Zoloft and within a day was experiencing SSRI withdrawal which, for me, includes what I call a "one-quart-low serotonin depression" lasting about a week this time. The reason I mention all this is because I fully expected the rage to return after going off the SSRI. But it did not! By the time the one week Zoloft trial and one week SSRI withdrawal time periods had elapsed, I had weaned myself off the nicotine patch. (I use scissors to cut full strength patches into progressively smaller and smaller pieces so as to taper the nicotine dose, and I use athletic tape to secure the properly sized patches to my wrist). In the absence of a nicotine addiction and/or nicotine intake, the rage mood disappeared.
I've rambled here, but the bottom line is that, for me, once the nicotine was out of my system, the rage was gone as well. I wish you success with your nicotine withdrawal and your mood!
-- Ron
PS As you probably know, Effexor is a Selective Norepinephrine Reuptake Inhibitor (SNRI). The smoking cessation medication Zyban (identical to the AD Wellbutrin) is a reuptake inhibitor of dopamine and Norepinephrine and is thought to be effective because it offsets the decline in brain levels of Norepinephrine caused by nicotine withdrawal. Although this mechanism may be overly simplistic, if increasing Norepinephrine does indeed aid smoking cessation then Effexor should also help smokers quit. At the same time, increasing Norepinephrine will almost certainly not reduce rage but instead may very well cause rage to escalate. Having said all this, everyone one is different and, therefore, your mileage may vary.
--------------------------------------------------
Hello,
> I have been taking effexor ex for the past 4 months with nice results. Lately life has not been so nice and added a ton of stress and crisis to my life. I also quit smoking with the help of the nicotine patch. YIKES!! The patch says that it can cause panic attacks and anxiety for people who take meds for depression.. Bingo, that would be me.. I also have gad. Since I have never "really" tried to quit smoking before for more than a day.. I am on day 12 right now, I don't know what I am feeling is normal or not. I feel like a raging mad woman. I wake up with my insides so wound up that I feel as though I might explode, very anxious, nervous, full of rage, .. basically like a bitch on wheels. I am not sure if it is the stopping smoking, the effexor and the patch or what!! Anyone with any help or ideas or stories.. I would be greatful. I have resulted in taking some adivan durring the day just to survive. I hate this feeling and need any thoughts you guys have for me. Thanks so much!!
> Nat
Posted by ZeKingPrawn on January 5, 2002, at 17:33:57
In reply to Effexor XR cold turkey, posted by jammy on December 18, 2001, at 21:40:14
Cold turkey is definitely not the way with Effex. It has to do with the half-life of the drug and needs to be stopped GRADUALLY. You have or will figure that out. Side effects will continue until all traces of the drug have been eliminated, which could be up to a month. My last dose was three days ago of 12.5 mg, and I was having mild side effects so I took another. I have been taking it for around two years, 300mg a day. I tried prozac before that and that sucked. I went from being chronically sad (though friends would NEVER have guessed) and moreover, philosophically depressed (pointless, meaningless, nothing means anything) to not worrying about it so much.
When I decided that I would try to go without Effexor, I cut my dose down by 25mg a week, I got down to 25mg and now three pills of 12.5 mg in a week. I am still having side effects. They are not severe, but uncomfortable nonetheless.
Remember, depression and anxiety are neurologically based so there IS a drug that will help you. Some people take "cocktails". Find a Psychiatrist who is specializes in your type of deprssions and causes (mine was from drug use as a teenager) and who is open to different treatments. Some Psychs just seem to be distributors for drugs. And get therapy at the same time, drugs help, but they are much less effective alone. And I was taking 150mg for the first two months which did nothing. 300mg and my life changed.
> I've been cold turkey from effexor xr 150mg since yesterday (mainly because I've not been able to get to a doctor, but also because i've been more bloody depressed since i started taking it than i ever felt before!) I know that I shouldn't just stop it but... anyone got any hints as to how long it'll take before the dizziness, tingling and (so much fun!) scary hallucinatory dreams stop? It feels like my brain's trying to swell out of my skull at the moment!
Posted by Dolphin on January 5, 2002, at 20:03:38
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!!, posted by ZeKingPrawn on January 5, 2002, at 16:08:08
To ZeKingPrawn
What is that suppose to mean? It doesn’t matter that it is a Multi Level Marketing company. This is a very good product and everyone that I have talked to is greatly impressed with the results that they have.
So-what, if it’s a MLM company. What is the difference if you buy something at a store? You are giving someone money and contributing to their business.
Not all MLM companies are worthless. I use their products and they have helped me. If you haven't tried something I don't think you should attempt to knock it down unless you have experience with it.
I have done my research about this company and I strongly believe they are 100% legit. If I didn’t believe this I would not have posted anything out here about it.
I posted the the website address of the company. Everyone can see for their selves what this company is all about.
The product has given me outstanding results. In addition, I'm convinced in Life Force and I currently order 3 additional products. Also, If I refer people to Life Force, I can get the products free. I look at it this way - I am going to use Life Force's products forever and I am 100% positive that other people need these life-sustaining products as well. Referring people to Life Force is not only beneficial to me, but it also greatly impacts the lives of the people I refer.
If someone chooses to purchase Body Balance, and they see a significant difference in their life, I will definitely encourage them to take advantage of the referring opportunity that Life Force offers. Not only will they benefit the people they refer, but they will not have to pay for Body Balance, of which I strongly believe is critically needed by the human body.
So, please, do not post anything negative about me unless you are for sure of what you are talking about. Thanks.
Posted by stjames on January 6, 2002, at 15:15:58
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!! , posted by Dolphin on January 5, 2002, at 20:03:38
>
> I posted the the website address of the company. Everyone can see for their selves what this company is all about.
I see that it is bunk
>
> The product has given me outstanding results. In addition, I'm convinced in Life Force and I currently order 3 additional products. Also, If I refer people to Life Force, I can get the products free.
So you are selling something. Now it is more clear. I suspect you would say anything to get free goodies.
Posted by michelle a. on January 6, 2002, at 18:09:24
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!! , posted by stjames on January 6, 2002, at 15:15:58
> >
> > I posted the the website address of the company. Everyone can see for their selves what this company is all about.
>
>
> I see that it is bunk
>
>
> >
> > The product has given me outstanding results. In addition, I'm convinced in Life Force and I currently order 3 additional products. Also, If I refer people to Life Force, I can get the products free.
>
>
> So you are selling something. Now it is more clear. I suspect you would say anything to get free goodies.don't you think you're being a bit harsh? if it makes her happy, so what? it's funny how depressed people are so negative and quick to condemn others... chill out
Posted by michelle a. on January 6, 2002, at 18:11:05
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!! , posted by stjames on January 6, 2002, at 15:15:58
> >
> > I posted the the website address of the company. Everyone can see for their selves what this company is all about.
>
>
> I see that it is bunk
>
>
> >
> > The product has given me outstanding results. In addition, I'm convinced in Life Force and I currently order 3 additional products. Also, If I refer people to Life Force, I can get the products free.
>
>
> So you are selling something. Now it is more clear. I suspect you would say anything to get free goodies.
it's not like she's hiding anything...
Posted by stjames on January 6, 2002, at 18:13:40
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!! , posted by michelle a. on January 6, 2002, at 18:11:05
I disagree, but thanks !
>
> it's not like she's hiding anything...
Posted by Dolphin on January 6, 2002, at 18:43:09
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!! , posted by stjames on January 6, 2002, at 15:15:58
You are entitled to your own opinion. However, I stand by mine.
Question for you: Have you ever referred someone to a restaurant or movie you enjoyed? That's what I’m doing.
If people ask me about my experience with Effexor and Life Force products, I will tell them my experiences.
I've found something that works for me and others. Not only can I get it free, but they can to (you failed to mention that part in your last posting.)
Most people tell others when something good has happened to them. Don’t you?
What I'm doing: is encouraging people to call the company for the product that’s having a positive effect on my depression and anxiety.
It may not do the same for everyone else as it has done for me. But what if it does?
Be Happy for me :)
Posted by stjames on January 6, 2002, at 18:56:17
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!! » stjames, posted by Dolphin on January 6, 2002, at 18:43:09
I would tell people to go the the health store, and do the same for much cheaper. Check the archives, I have been on this list for years. It is very clear what I think works.
Buying "special" vitamins does not when one can do the same much cheaper.
My experiences with MLM is that they or normal to so so products. Just more hype. At least there is not Pig story attached to this one.
Posted by Dolphin on January 6, 2002, at 19:48:32
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!!, posted by stjames on January 6, 2002, at 18:56:17
What do you know about Life Force International? If you do not have any experience with them, then in my opinion, it is not fair that you knock them down as an MLM company.
Some MLM companies are hype, however Life Force is nothing like other companies.
Body Balance is not a common vitamin. It is derived from hundreds of feet beneath the Arctic Ocean from sea vegetables, which is free from herbicides, pesticides, and heavy metal contamination. It contains every vitamin, macro mineral, trace mineral, enzyme, amino acid, fatty acids, and bioflavonoid known to man. This is everything that our body needs for life. It contains over 121 nutrients per ounce, which is more than any other kind of food.
The US Senate Document #264 and the 1992 Earth Summit Report documents an 85% mineral depletion in farm and range soils, over the past 100 years in North America. Based on this, the grasses and vegetation the animals eat and the fruits and vegetables we eat are deficient in minerals and vitamin content and therefore we are also mineral and vitamin deficient in all the foods we eat.
Fruits and vegetables are cultivated using chemicals fertilizers, pesticides and waste contaminants. Harvested prematurely and artificially ripened, they are then sprayed, processed, radiated and coated with toxic chemicals to improve their appearance and prolong their shelf-life. Actual nutritional values for land vegetables and highly questionable.
Beef, poultry, and pork are loaded with antibiotics, hormones, steroids, drugs and toxic chemicals to hasten slaughter and increase yield. These substances accumulate in our bodies, interfere with normal body functions, trigger abnormal immune responses, and are often known as carcinogens.
Not to mention, the air we breathe, the water we drink, and any drugs with their horrible side effects.
For the fact that Body Balance is a “whole food” liquid ionic solution, up to 98% of the nutrients are absorbed by the body. On page 1542 of the Physicians Desk Reference (considered to be the medical bible), it shows that vitamins and minerals in pill form are only 10% to 20% absorbed by the body.Most Doctor’s are too quick to write a prescription to put people on drugs. Which I believe is what Psycho Babble is about.
Posted by stjames on January 6, 2002, at 20:02:13
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!! » stjames, posted by Dolphin on January 6, 2002, at 19:48:32
> For the fact that Body Balance is a “whole food” liquid ionic solution, up to 98% of the nutrients are absorbed by the body. On page 1542 of the Physicians Desk Reference (considered to be the medical bible), it shows that vitamins and minerals in pill form are only 10% to 20% absorbed by the body.
Would you mind proving this with studies ?
i have advocated for meds taken in liquid form for some time. I would like you to prove 98%
with a study, not an advertising statement.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 6, 2002, at 20:11:31
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!! , posted by stjames on January 6, 2002, at 15:15:58
> I see that it is bunk
> I suspect you would say anything to get free goodies.
Sorry, but I've recently reminded you to be civil, so I'm going to have to try to block you for one week now.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding civility should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by Teva on January 6, 2002, at 20:54:20
In reply to Re: effexor scares me, posted by Timbuk2 on December 3, 2001, at 12:48:28
One thing that I have a lot of questions about is, has depression always been this frequent? Is it that it is more "out in the open" now or is there an increase in depression on a large scale? Although I know
that depression seems fairly common now (being one of the many myself), especially after reading the different messages on this site, has it always been this common? Anybody have any thoughts or answers to share
on this? I am close to two weeks being effexor free and I do feel better (as I mentioned in a previous post),especially now that the withdrawal effects are getting a bit better, but I feel more in control of my
life now and although I am continuing in my counselling (with a psychologist rather than a psychiatrist), I do feel that I am in the right frame of mind to tackle the "source" rather than the "symptoms".But I am still curious...is it just the age that we live in now, stress, anxiety, etc.?
Teva
One thing to keep in mind when on these sites, is that there seem to be very few positive postings. Why is that you ask? Because 80-90% of people do get better and get on with thier lives.(I'm not postive on that figure, but I believe I'm close) It just takes time and patients, and the right meds for YOU.
> Please keep in mind when trying a new drug, "A drug without side effects is a drug without any effects!" Believe me! I work as a Pharmacy Technician in a very busy Drug store. Most side effects will go away in time. You also cannot become addicted to this drug. It has some withdrawl side effect issues.but it's not addicting! It just changes the chemical structure in your brain.
> I was one of those 80%-90% of people a few months back. In fact, I was so good that I went off of my Effexor completely (ya.....with side effects.....but managable)
> It was maybe 6 weeks before I suffered my second major depression. Hey I had to try! Nobody wants to be on drugs the rest of thier lives.
> Guess what! I do!
> It's clinical.....it came up on me so fast and unexpected. It has been very hard, but I'm back on Effexor 150 mg. I have good days and bad but I'm slowly getting better, and couldn't have done it without the support of a GREAT Wife and kids!
> I'm confused why anyone would go off of thier meds a 3rd or 4th time? We sometimes feel so good that we forget what it's like to be bad. And I've been in bad shape! I've been there! I have 7 brothers and sisters, 5 of whom all suffer from Depression. My mother has suffered with depression all her life. I never did understand what she went through until now. I always thought she should "Snap out of it"! I doesn't work that way. My Granfather commited suicide before age 50.
> My brother recently attempted suicide. It was by the grace of GOD that he made it. He may not have tried, had my family all talked about this disease. We do now! We all should talk more openly about this condition.
> We all hide it from each other because of the stigma placed on it.
> It's no different than Diabetes or Asthma.
> Would a Diabetic go off thier insulin?
> Would a Heart patient go off thier medications?
> Would an asthmatic go of of thier inhalers?
> No! Do you think those things don't have side effects? They all do! What's worse though? Certainly not the depression for me. If it doesn't work for you...their is tons of others to try. But they all take time and will have some side effects that diminish over time.
> I'm going to be on Anti-Depressants for the rest of my life (I'm 35 and a father of 2)and will deal with whatever comes my way.
> If your clinically depressed..stay on your meds. Find one that works for you.......and stick with it. There is HOPE for all of us! All those feelings and mixed up thoughts are a result of the disorder you have. Never give up hope!
> It also doesn't hurt to have some faith in God!
Posted by angel1 on January 6, 2002, at 20:58:55
In reply to Please don't use capital letters... » angel1, posted by Krazy Kat on January 5, 2002, at 10:45:57
> they denote shouting.
WHATEVER!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Dolphin on January 6, 2002, at 21:15:39
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!!, posted by stjames on January 6, 2002, at 20:02:13
The best thing for you to do if you want proof is to call Life Force International and ask them.
After all, that is where I learned it.
Also, what does the human urine look like once a person has taken a pill form vitamin supplement. It is pure orangeish/yellow. What do you think that is?
Also, the Chiropractic Economics (March/April '98) describes: In Tocoma, Washington, 250,000 pounds of undigested vitamin and mineral pills, some with brand names still readable, are pulled out of sewers every six weeks. In Salt Lake City, over 150 gallons of undigested vitamin and mineral pills show up in their filters every month.
My sister questioned this, she works at a boot store. One of her customers cleans out the port-a-potties for a living. She asked him if it was true about the pills brand names still being readable. He said yes and that he sees it all the time.
I wouldn't recommend a health store to anyone. They would be flushing their money down the toilet.
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 6, 2002, at 22:00:42
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!! (nm) » michelle a., posted by Lou Pilder on January 6, 2002, at 21:48:39
Group people. I am having trouble with my computer. Sorry for the repitition but I am try in to share an important concept . It is that the suppliment companys are using a scam that is 3000 years old. You see, a percentage of people will remit their illness without taking anything. So if the scam company sells their suppliments to 10,000 people, then the ones that remitted while taking the suppliment will be the pawns for the company's advertising. The ones that had no effect will shut up due to their embaressment for losing their money. How doyou tell? By resech tudies. But the suppliment companys are exempt because they print a disclaimer that there is no proof that the clames that they make are true. People have bough snake-oil fo 1000's of years. Most of them became alchoholics because the products then were 50% alchohol. The suppliments today can be even more harmfull! Lou
Posted by Dolphin on January 6, 2002, at 22:33:59
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!!, posted by Lou Pilder on January 6, 2002, at 22:00:42
Lou,
That’s your opinion. Of which you are entitled.
Posted by Cam W. on January 7, 2002, at 0:03:44
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!! » stjames, posted by Dolphin on January 6, 2002, at 19:48:32
Dolphin - Please back up your statements with scientific evidence. "Opinions" don't hold much water when placed next to randomized placebo-controlled clinical trials (although they, in themselves are not perfect).
What are "sea vegetables"? What you are describing sounds like manna, or more frighteningly, "Soylent Green". If these "vegetables" are what the company claims, don't you think some scientist, or more likely some major food manufacturing conglomerate, would have us eating these "vegetables" three times daily, to improve our nutrition?
Secrets like this cannot be kept, especially by those who have to use Amway-like marketing to ditribute their product. Why not sell retail? If the product is as you have described, the owners of the product, or it's extraction process, would be billionaires within a week, if placed on the open market.
It also seems highly unlikely that "every vitamin, mineral, bioflavinoid,...." would be found in one or three "sea vegetables". Surely, a find like this would have made the cover of Nature, or at least, NEJM. BTW, most toxins and all heavy metals, are heavier than seawater, and would appear in even the soil of the Arctic Ocean. Also, plants such as "sea vegetables" would require photosynthesis. I'm sorry, but this also leaves me in the dark. Although there is some plant life below the ice of the Arctic Ocean, it would not be in the form of vegetables.
All I ask is that you provide the names of these "sea vegetables"; just the genus and species. If the company cannot do that, then they are bordering on fradualent activity. I will stake my reputation on it. - Cam
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"There's a sucker born every minute." - P.T. Barnum
"Doh!" - Homer Simpson
Posted by michelle a. on January 7, 2002, at 0:43:04
In reply to Re: effexor scares me, posted by Teva on January 6, 2002, at 20:54:20
i was just talking about this subject the other day with someone.. i think it's both.. more socially acceptable to be depressed...and i think as a society overall, we're getting soft. myself included. we worry about stuff that our predessesors would have slapped us upside the head for being so whiney when they had more important life and death things to worry about like feeding the family. but....
i also think that our society is going straight down the toilet as far as how our families are doing mental-health wise. we have so much more dysfunction, and we put it on jerry springer for all to see, and our kids are having kids and can't fight themselves out of a wet paper bag. we're getting soft and totally forgetting how to raise decent kids.. love them to death but teach them the life lessons they need to survive as adults without too much head-banging against the wall. spoiled kids end up being depressed adults. i've thought about this subject over and over in my mind and i think i can speak from experience. my depression is psychologically based, but i treat it with drugs...(and therapy) go figure...band-aid approach????
> One thing that I have a lot of questions about is, has depression always been this frequent? Is it that it is more "out in the open" now or is there an increase in depression on a large scale? Although I know
> that depression seems fairly common now (being one of the many myself), especially after reading the different messages on this site, has it always been this common? Anybody have any thoughts or answers to share
> on this? I am close to two weeks being effexor free and I do feel better (as I mentioned in a previous post),especially now that the withdrawal effects are getting a bit better, but I feel more in control of my
> life now and although I am continuing in my counselling (with a psychologist rather than a psychiatrist), I do feel that I am in the right frame of mind to tackle the "source" rather than the "symptoms".
>
> But I am still curious...is it just the age that we live in now, stress, anxiety, etc.?
>
> Teva
>
Posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 1:19:47
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!! » Dolphin, posted by Cam W. on January 7, 2002, at 0:03:44
hi Cam. I can no longer keep my mouth shut, but still, I'm going to be as kind as possible., but honest.
Here's the rundown on these "sea vegetables" from the Lifeforce site itself:
"9 FULLY-RIPENED SEA VEGETABLES—
(Fucus Gardneri, Ulva Lactuca, Alaria Valida, Nereocystis Luetkeana, Laminaria, Ulva Linza, Gigartina, Costaria
Costata, Phodymenia Pertusa). Rich in enzymes, our
sea vegetables are a good source of “organic” trace minerals, which help the body naturally detoxify itself. Our sea vegetables are harvested from the pristine ocean waters in an area referred to as the “Regeneration Zone.” This zone is free from herbicides, pesticides and heavy metal contamination, and are in a constant state of nutrient enrichment."Amazing, how this part of the ocean doesn't seem to mix its waters with the polluted waters of the rest of the world's oceans. I never thought that ocean waters were stagnant before, how else could its waters stay separate from the rest of the world? Here’s the rundown on the algae listed:
Fucus gardneri: an alga that grows in the upper intertidal zone often attached to rocks, hence the common name 'rockweed'.
Ulva lactuca: familiarly called sea lettuce.Any kid playing along the shores has seen it. Sometimes eaten as green laver in Oriental diets.
Alaria valida: a variety of winged kelp belonging to the brown algae family. Abundant in low intertidal & shallow subtidal zones.
Nereocystis luetkeana: commonly called bladder or ribbon kelp, the most plentiful kelp species found in underwater kelp forests.
Laminaria: a number of different species of brown kelp also found in low intertidal zones.
Ulva linza: a related species of algae to sea lettuce.
Gigartina: a number of species in the genus, Gigartina, a red kelp commonly found in the Pacific.
Costaria costata: commonly called ribbed or seersucker kelp, another member of the brown kelp family.
Phodymenia pertusa: I find no information on this one, perhaps it’s using an outdated Latin name.
What I find interesting is that most of these kelps & algae are found in low intertidal zones, yet the company claims it harvests these ‘sea vegetables’ at a depth of 200’. Who’s around to prove where they harvest the kelp from? And while kelp is a good food, strange that it alone has all the nutrients necessary for life that land plants don’t have. I had no idea that some ocean waters could be so pristine either. How’d they manage that?
Bottom line is if it works for some people, placebo or what, all they’re losing is their money, not their health.
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>
> What are "sea vegetables"? What you are describing sounds like manna, or more frighteningly, "Soylent Green". If these "vegetables" are what the company claims, don't you think some scientist, or more likely some major food manufacturing conglomerate, would have us eating these "vegetables" three times daily, to improve our nutrition?
>
> Secrets like this cannot be kept, especially by those who have to use Amway-like marketing to ditribute their product. Why not sell retail? If the product is as you have described, the owners of the product, or it's extraction process, would be billionaires within a week, if placed on the open market.
>
> It also seems highly unlikely that "every vitamin, mineral, bioflavinoid,...." would be found in one or three "sea vegetables". Surely, a find like this would have made the cover of Nature, or at least, NEJM. BTW, most toxins and all heavy metals, are heavier than seawater, and would appear in even the soil of the Arctic Ocean. Also, plants such as "sea vegetables" would require photosynthesis. I'm sorry, but this also leaves me in the dark. Although there is some plant life below the ice of the Arctic Ocean, it would not be in the form of vegetables.
>
> All I ask is that you provide the names of these "sea vegetables"; just the genus and species. If the company cannot do that, then they are bordering on fradualent activity. I will stake my reputation on it. - Cam
>
> "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
>
> "There's a sucker born every minute." - P.T. Barnum
>
> "Doh!" - Homer Simpson
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2002, at 8:56:27
In reply to Re: effexor scares me » Teva, posted by michelle a. on January 7, 2002, at 0:43:04
>
Michelle & Teva,
I agree with much of what you say, but there have always been people who fell through the cracks of that mindset. People who were just too vulnerable to respond to a slap of common sense. There are biological vulnerabilities that affect our ability to function. Our ancestors had more than a little depression and anxiety. It was probably self medicated with drugs and alchohol. The most vulnerable individuals probably succumbed to illness or committed suicide. But their relatives probably had a slight advantage in survival due to increased perceptiveness and awareness of danger and more controversially perhaps some increased creativity. These relatives of the most severely affected lived to pass the genes on to us.
Just my own humble theory.
Dinah
Posted by Cam W. on January 7, 2002, at 9:29:12
In reply to Sea Vegetables » Cam W., posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 1:19:47
IsoM - Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. I am always leery of pyramid selling schemes. They always set off my BS detector. - Cam.
Posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 13:22:41
In reply to Re: effexor scares me » michelle a., posted by Dinah on January 7, 2002, at 8:56:27
Posted by JANNBEAU on January 7, 2002, at 14:35:02
In reply to Re: effexor scares me » michelle a., posted by Dinah on January 7, 2002, at 8:56:27
> >Hi, I, too, agree that depression has always been around, at least for a very long time! However, Darwinian evolutionary theory implies "survival of the fittest" with respect to the gene pool. Survivors probably did not carry the genetic trait for depression. If they did carry depression genes, then they probably also carried genes for other, more adaptive behaviors that fostered survival. Those genes should have been amplified in the gene pool, while the genes causing depression would have gradually disappeared from the gene pool, especially as the gene pool is constantly being enlarged), leading to disappearance of depression. Or perhaps we just wouldn't find depression such a problem today. Instead, we perceive depression to have become more prevalent. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, since statistics aren't really available since "depression" isn't a reportable disease for most state public health agencies (who collect most of our morbidity and mortality statistics).
But, you cannot eliminate "nurture" from your equation. We do not seem, as a nation, to be nurturing our to become competent adults. Instead, we're leaving them alone without love, supervision, or role models. The loss of structure from our lives may contribute to depression, or, if depression is genetic, to expression of the gene as the clinical state of depression. The last comment suggests that "nature" and "nurture" are inextricable. If so, history has also shown that people are much a product of their environment and that a positive environment can compensate for, or significantly decrease some of the most devastating of the effects of "nature." This is illustrated by the progress of babies born addicted to crack cocaine who, when removed from the environment that produced them and placed into nurturing homes, are very little different from "normal" people. Much other historical data supports this concept, going all the way back to Harry Harlow's monkeys (and well before that time, too--remember marasmus--the wasting disease of infants left without nurturing care in orphanages?)..illustrating the power of the environment to determine fate.
Then, again, perhaps we ARE just spoiled rotten, we don't have to work hard, we have everything we need in life, we don't have to worry about where we'll get our next pair of Guess? jeans, much less our next meal, and we have much more time to titillate ourselves with our emotional problems. We like to hear ourselves talk and moan. We have powerful imaginations which, if not stopped, can carry us into the most horrible day-time nightmares just by pushing our THOUGHTS into the direction of horrible outcomes!
Then, again, and again, perhaps depression and some other mental illnesses are just a fabrication of the drug companies that make fortunes off those of us (I certainly belong to this group) who have "bought" into the medical model of disease and think that there is a pill to cure every ailment--those of us who take Effexor may or may not agree with the healing effects of this drug--I won't go there, now.
Who knows? I think I just like to hear myself rattle, too.
Cheers,
Jannbeau. . .People who were just too vulnerable to respond to a slap of common sense. There are biological vulnerabilities that affect our ability to function. Our ancestors had more than a little depression and anxiety. The most vulnerable individuals probably succumbed to illness or committed suicide. But their relatives probably had a slight advantage in survival due to increased perceptiveness and awareness of danger and more controversially perhaps some increased creativity. These relatives of the most severely affected lived to pass the genes on to us.
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