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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1545 to 1569 of 10407. Go back in thread:
Posted by Teva on January 6, 2002, at 20:54:20
In reply to Re: effexor scares me, posted by Timbuk2 on December 3, 2001, at 12:48:28
One thing that I have a lot of questions about is, has depression always been this frequent? Is it that it is more "out in the open" now or is there an increase in depression on a large scale? Although I know
that depression seems fairly common now (being one of the many myself), especially after reading the different messages on this site, has it always been this common? Anybody have any thoughts or answers to share
on this? I am close to two weeks being effexor free and I do feel better (as I mentioned in a previous post),especially now that the withdrawal effects are getting a bit better, but I feel more in control of my
life now and although I am continuing in my counselling (with a psychologist rather than a psychiatrist), I do feel that I am in the right frame of mind to tackle the "source" rather than the "symptoms".But I am still curious...is it just the age that we live in now, stress, anxiety, etc.?
Teva
One thing to keep in mind when on these sites, is that there seem to be very few positive postings. Why is that you ask? Because 80-90% of people do get better and get on with thier lives.(I'm not postive on that figure, but I believe I'm close) It just takes time and patients, and the right meds for YOU.
> Please keep in mind when trying a new drug, "A drug without side effects is a drug without any effects!" Believe me! I work as a Pharmacy Technician in a very busy Drug store. Most side effects will go away in time. You also cannot become addicted to this drug. It has some withdrawl side effect issues.but it's not addicting! It just changes the chemical structure in your brain.
> I was one of those 80%-90% of people a few months back. In fact, I was so good that I went off of my Effexor completely (ya.....with side effects.....but managable)
> It was maybe 6 weeks before I suffered my second major depression. Hey I had to try! Nobody wants to be on drugs the rest of thier lives.
> Guess what! I do!
> It's clinical.....it came up on me so fast and unexpected. It has been very hard, but I'm back on Effexor 150 mg. I have good days and bad but I'm slowly getting better, and couldn't have done it without the support of a GREAT Wife and kids!
> I'm confused why anyone would go off of thier meds a 3rd or 4th time? We sometimes feel so good that we forget what it's like to be bad. And I've been in bad shape! I've been there! I have 7 brothers and sisters, 5 of whom all suffer from Depression. My mother has suffered with depression all her life. I never did understand what she went through until now. I always thought she should "Snap out of it"! I doesn't work that way. My Granfather commited suicide before age 50.
> My brother recently attempted suicide. It was by the grace of GOD that he made it. He may not have tried, had my family all talked about this disease. We do now! We all should talk more openly about this condition.
> We all hide it from each other because of the stigma placed on it.
> It's no different than Diabetes or Asthma.
> Would a Diabetic go off thier insulin?
> Would a Heart patient go off thier medications?
> Would an asthmatic go of of thier inhalers?
> No! Do you think those things don't have side effects? They all do! What's worse though? Certainly not the depression for me. If it doesn't work for you...their is tons of others to try. But they all take time and will have some side effects that diminish over time.
> I'm going to be on Anti-Depressants for the rest of my life (I'm 35 and a father of 2)and will deal with whatever comes my way.
> If your clinically depressed..stay on your meds. Find one that works for you.......and stick with it. There is HOPE for all of us! All those feelings and mixed up thoughts are a result of the disorder you have. Never give up hope!
> It also doesn't hurt to have some faith in God!
Posted by angel1 on January 6, 2002, at 20:58:55
In reply to Please don't use capital letters... » angel1, posted by Krazy Kat on January 5, 2002, at 10:45:57
> they denote shouting.
WHATEVER!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Dolphin on January 6, 2002, at 21:15:39
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!!, posted by stjames on January 6, 2002, at 20:02:13
The best thing for you to do if you want proof is to call Life Force International and ask them.
After all, that is where I learned it.
Also, what does the human urine look like once a person has taken a pill form vitamin supplement. It is pure orangeish/yellow. What do you think that is?
Also, the Chiropractic Economics (March/April '98) describes: In Tocoma, Washington, 250,000 pounds of undigested vitamin and mineral pills, some with brand names still readable, are pulled out of sewers every six weeks. In Salt Lake City, over 150 gallons of undigested vitamin and mineral pills show up in their filters every month.
My sister questioned this, she works at a boot store. One of her customers cleans out the port-a-potties for a living. She asked him if it was true about the pills brand names still being readable. He said yes and that he sees it all the time.
I wouldn't recommend a health store to anyone. They would be flushing their money down the toilet.
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 6, 2002, at 22:00:42
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!! (nm) » michelle a., posted by Lou Pilder on January 6, 2002, at 21:48:39
Group people. I am having trouble with my computer. Sorry for the repitition but I am try in to share an important concept . It is that the suppliment companys are using a scam that is 3000 years old. You see, a percentage of people will remit their illness without taking anything. So if the scam company sells their suppliments to 10,000 people, then the ones that remitted while taking the suppliment will be the pawns for the company's advertising. The ones that had no effect will shut up due to their embaressment for losing their money. How doyou tell? By resech tudies. But the suppliment companys are exempt because they print a disclaimer that there is no proof that the clames that they make are true. People have bough snake-oil fo 1000's of years. Most of them became alchoholics because the products then were 50% alchohol. The suppliments today can be even more harmfull! Lou
Posted by Dolphin on January 6, 2002, at 22:33:59
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!!, posted by Lou Pilder on January 6, 2002, at 22:00:42
Lou,
That’s your opinion. Of which you are entitled.
Posted by Cam W. on January 7, 2002, at 0:03:44
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!! » stjames, posted by Dolphin on January 6, 2002, at 19:48:32
Dolphin - Please back up your statements with scientific evidence. "Opinions" don't hold much water when placed next to randomized placebo-controlled clinical trials (although they, in themselves are not perfect).
What are "sea vegetables"? What you are describing sounds like manna, or more frighteningly, "Soylent Green". If these "vegetables" are what the company claims, don't you think some scientist, or more likely some major food manufacturing conglomerate, would have us eating these "vegetables" three times daily, to improve our nutrition?
Secrets like this cannot be kept, especially by those who have to use Amway-like marketing to ditribute their product. Why not sell retail? If the product is as you have described, the owners of the product, or it's extraction process, would be billionaires within a week, if placed on the open market.
It also seems highly unlikely that "every vitamin, mineral, bioflavinoid,...." would be found in one or three "sea vegetables". Surely, a find like this would have made the cover of Nature, or at least, NEJM. BTW, most toxins and all heavy metals, are heavier than seawater, and would appear in even the soil of the Arctic Ocean. Also, plants such as "sea vegetables" would require photosynthesis. I'm sorry, but this also leaves me in the dark. Although there is some plant life below the ice of the Arctic Ocean, it would not be in the form of vegetables.
All I ask is that you provide the names of these "sea vegetables"; just the genus and species. If the company cannot do that, then they are bordering on fradualent activity. I will stake my reputation on it. - Cam
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
"There's a sucker born every minute." - P.T. Barnum
"Doh!" - Homer Simpson
Posted by michelle a. on January 7, 2002, at 0:43:04
In reply to Re: effexor scares me, posted by Teva on January 6, 2002, at 20:54:20
i was just talking about this subject the other day with someone.. i think it's both.. more socially acceptable to be depressed...and i think as a society overall, we're getting soft. myself included. we worry about stuff that our predessesors would have slapped us upside the head for being so whiney when they had more important life and death things to worry about like feeding the family. but....
i also think that our society is going straight down the toilet as far as how our families are doing mental-health wise. we have so much more dysfunction, and we put it on jerry springer for all to see, and our kids are having kids and can't fight themselves out of a wet paper bag. we're getting soft and totally forgetting how to raise decent kids.. love them to death but teach them the life lessons they need to survive as adults without too much head-banging against the wall. spoiled kids end up being depressed adults. i've thought about this subject over and over in my mind and i think i can speak from experience. my depression is psychologically based, but i treat it with drugs...(and therapy) go figure...band-aid approach????
> One thing that I have a lot of questions about is, has depression always been this frequent? Is it that it is more "out in the open" now or is there an increase in depression on a large scale? Although I know
> that depression seems fairly common now (being one of the many myself), especially after reading the different messages on this site, has it always been this common? Anybody have any thoughts or answers to share
> on this? I am close to two weeks being effexor free and I do feel better (as I mentioned in a previous post),especially now that the withdrawal effects are getting a bit better, but I feel more in control of my
> life now and although I am continuing in my counselling (with a psychologist rather than a psychiatrist), I do feel that I am in the right frame of mind to tackle the "source" rather than the "symptoms".
>
> But I am still curious...is it just the age that we live in now, stress, anxiety, etc.?
>
> Teva
>
Posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 1:19:47
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!! » Dolphin, posted by Cam W. on January 7, 2002, at 0:03:44
hi Cam. I can no longer keep my mouth shut, but still, I'm going to be as kind as possible., but honest.
Here's the rundown on these "sea vegetables" from the Lifeforce site itself:
"9 FULLY-RIPENED SEA VEGETABLES—
(Fucus Gardneri, Ulva Lactuca, Alaria Valida, Nereocystis Luetkeana, Laminaria, Ulva Linza, Gigartina, Costaria
Costata, Phodymenia Pertusa). Rich in enzymes, our
sea vegetables are a good source of “organic” trace minerals, which help the body naturally detoxify itself. Our sea vegetables are harvested from the pristine ocean waters in an area referred to as the “Regeneration Zone.” This zone is free from herbicides, pesticides and heavy metal contamination, and are in a constant state of nutrient enrichment."Amazing, how this part of the ocean doesn't seem to mix its waters with the polluted waters of the rest of the world's oceans. I never thought that ocean waters were stagnant before, how else could its waters stay separate from the rest of the world? Here’s the rundown on the algae listed:
Fucus gardneri: an alga that grows in the upper intertidal zone often attached to rocks, hence the common name 'rockweed'.
Ulva lactuca: familiarly called sea lettuce.Any kid playing along the shores has seen it. Sometimes eaten as green laver in Oriental diets.
Alaria valida: a variety of winged kelp belonging to the brown algae family. Abundant in low intertidal & shallow subtidal zones.
Nereocystis luetkeana: commonly called bladder or ribbon kelp, the most plentiful kelp species found in underwater kelp forests.
Laminaria: a number of different species of brown kelp also found in low intertidal zones.
Ulva linza: a related species of algae to sea lettuce.
Gigartina: a number of species in the genus, Gigartina, a red kelp commonly found in the Pacific.
Costaria costata: commonly called ribbed or seersucker kelp, another member of the brown kelp family.
Phodymenia pertusa: I find no information on this one, perhaps it’s using an outdated Latin name.
What I find interesting is that most of these kelps & algae are found in low intertidal zones, yet the company claims it harvests these ‘sea vegetables’ at a depth of 200’. Who’s around to prove where they harvest the kelp from? And while kelp is a good food, strange that it alone has all the nutrients necessary for life that land plants don’t have. I had no idea that some ocean waters could be so pristine either. How’d they manage that?
Bottom line is if it works for some people, placebo or what, all they’re losing is their money, not their health.
****************************************************************************************************
>
> What are "sea vegetables"? What you are describing sounds like manna, or more frighteningly, "Soylent Green". If these "vegetables" are what the company claims, don't you think some scientist, or more likely some major food manufacturing conglomerate, would have us eating these "vegetables" three times daily, to improve our nutrition?
>
> Secrets like this cannot be kept, especially by those who have to use Amway-like marketing to ditribute their product. Why not sell retail? If the product is as you have described, the owners of the product, or it's extraction process, would be billionaires within a week, if placed on the open market.
>
> It also seems highly unlikely that "every vitamin, mineral, bioflavinoid,...." would be found in one or three "sea vegetables". Surely, a find like this would have made the cover of Nature, or at least, NEJM. BTW, most toxins and all heavy metals, are heavier than seawater, and would appear in even the soil of the Arctic Ocean. Also, plants such as "sea vegetables" would require photosynthesis. I'm sorry, but this also leaves me in the dark. Although there is some plant life below the ice of the Arctic Ocean, it would not be in the form of vegetables.
>
> All I ask is that you provide the names of these "sea vegetables"; just the genus and species. If the company cannot do that, then they are bordering on fradualent activity. I will stake my reputation on it. - Cam
>
> "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
>
> "There's a sucker born every minute." - P.T. Barnum
>
> "Doh!" - Homer Simpson
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2002, at 8:56:27
In reply to Re: effexor scares me » Teva, posted by michelle a. on January 7, 2002, at 0:43:04
>
Michelle & Teva,
I agree with much of what you say, but there have always been people who fell through the cracks of that mindset. People who were just too vulnerable to respond to a slap of common sense. There are biological vulnerabilities that affect our ability to function. Our ancestors had more than a little depression and anxiety. It was probably self medicated with drugs and alchohol. The most vulnerable individuals probably succumbed to illness or committed suicide. But their relatives probably had a slight advantage in survival due to increased perceptiveness and awareness of danger and more controversially perhaps some increased creativity. These relatives of the most severely affected lived to pass the genes on to us.
Just my own humble theory.
Dinah
Posted by Cam W. on January 7, 2002, at 9:29:12
In reply to Sea Vegetables » Cam W., posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 1:19:47
IsoM - Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. I am always leery of pyramid selling schemes. They always set off my BS detector. - Cam.
Posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 13:22:41
In reply to Re: effexor scares me » michelle a., posted by Dinah on January 7, 2002, at 8:56:27
Posted by JANNBEAU on January 7, 2002, at 14:35:02
In reply to Re: effexor scares me » michelle a., posted by Dinah on January 7, 2002, at 8:56:27
> >Hi, I, too, agree that depression has always been around, at least for a very long time! However, Darwinian evolutionary theory implies "survival of the fittest" with respect to the gene pool. Survivors probably did not carry the genetic trait for depression. If they did carry depression genes, then they probably also carried genes for other, more adaptive behaviors that fostered survival. Those genes should have been amplified in the gene pool, while the genes causing depression would have gradually disappeared from the gene pool, especially as the gene pool is constantly being enlarged), leading to disappearance of depression. Or perhaps we just wouldn't find depression such a problem today. Instead, we perceive depression to have become more prevalent. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, since statistics aren't really available since "depression" isn't a reportable disease for most state public health agencies (who collect most of our morbidity and mortality statistics).
But, you cannot eliminate "nurture" from your equation. We do not seem, as a nation, to be nurturing our to become competent adults. Instead, we're leaving them alone without love, supervision, or role models. The loss of structure from our lives may contribute to depression, or, if depression is genetic, to expression of the gene as the clinical state of depression. The last comment suggests that "nature" and "nurture" are inextricable. If so, history has also shown that people are much a product of their environment and that a positive environment can compensate for, or significantly decrease some of the most devastating of the effects of "nature." This is illustrated by the progress of babies born addicted to crack cocaine who, when removed from the environment that produced them and placed into nurturing homes, are very little different from "normal" people. Much other historical data supports this concept, going all the way back to Harry Harlow's monkeys (and well before that time, too--remember marasmus--the wasting disease of infants left without nurturing care in orphanages?)..illustrating the power of the environment to determine fate.
Then, again, perhaps we ARE just spoiled rotten, we don't have to work hard, we have everything we need in life, we don't have to worry about where we'll get our next pair of Guess? jeans, much less our next meal, and we have much more time to titillate ourselves with our emotional problems. We like to hear ourselves talk and moan. We have powerful imaginations which, if not stopped, can carry us into the most horrible day-time nightmares just by pushing our THOUGHTS into the direction of horrible outcomes!
Then, again, and again, perhaps depression and some other mental illnesses are just a fabrication of the drug companies that make fortunes off those of us (I certainly belong to this group) who have "bought" into the medical model of disease and think that there is a pill to cure every ailment--those of us who take Effexor may or may not agree with the healing effects of this drug--I won't go there, now.
Who knows? I think I just like to hear myself rattle, too.
Cheers,
Jannbeau. . .People who were just too vulnerable to respond to a slap of common sense. There are biological vulnerabilities that affect our ability to function. Our ancestors had more than a little depression and anxiety. The most vulnerable individuals probably succumbed to illness or committed suicide. But their relatives probably had a slight advantage in survival due to increased perceptiveness and awareness of danger and more controversially perhaps some increased creativity. These relatives of the most severely affected lived to pass the genes on to us.
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2002, at 19:01:32
In reply to Agree with your theory -history agrees too (nm) » Dinah, posted by IsoM on January 7, 2002, at 13:22:41
I should have said my opinion. I'm sure I read it somewhere and just found it a sensible notion. I don't want to take credit for it. :-)
Posted by Dinah on January 7, 2002, at 19:09:25
In reply to Re: effexor scares me » Dinah, posted by JANNBEAU on January 7, 2002, at 14:35:02
Hi Jannbeau,
I'd be happy to continue this discussion of the history and evolution of depression, but I think we'd better move it to Psycho-Social-Babble before Dr. Bob redirects it. I'll post a reply there if you'd like to continue the discussion.
Dinah
Posted by IsoM on January 8, 2002, at 1:20:18
In reply to Oops, actually not my theory. » IsoM, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2002, at 19:01:32
That's okay, I didn't quite mean literally your "theory". I probably was in a Monty Python frame of mind. But still, it's what I believe is true of depression's predominance nowadays too.
The Monty Python sketch was where John Cleese dressed as a woman professor was giving 'her' theory on dinosaurs. Everytime I say the word theory that sketch pops into my head.
> I should have said my opinion. I'm sure I read it somewhere and just found it a sensible notion. I don't want to take credit for it. :-)
Posted by JANNBEAU on January 8, 2002, at 10:58:41
In reply to Re: effexor scares me » JANNBEAU, posted by Dinah on January 7, 2002, at 19:09:25
> Hi Jannbeau,
> I'd be happy to continue this discussion of the history and evolution of depression, but I think we'd better move it to Psycho-Social-Babble before Dr. Bob redirects it. I'll post a reply there if you'd like to continue the discussion.
> DinahHi, Dinah. That sounds great. I'll see you at Psycho-Social-Babble if I can figure out how to find you. I am new at this,so I haven't explored all the forums, but I did realize that we were straying from the Effexor thread. Thanks for redirect. BTW, I am feeling so much better since I started Effexor (and another to reduce the sedative effects that seemed to be crippling me) that I actually enjoy the philosophical discussions.
Cheers, JannBeau
Posted by zekingprawn on January 8, 2002, at 11:25:19
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!!, posted by Dolphin on January 3, 2002, at 22:25:14
Dolphin, you are right, if it works for you, then THAT IS GREAT FOR YOU. What made me realize this was reading the following that you wrote:
"God did not make Effexor, Paxil, Prozac, etc. However, he did create what our body needs to survive and live."
Let's not bring God into this. God may not have made EFfexor, etc... but he didn't make Penecillin, The Polio Vaccine, The small POx Vaccine, either... but he made the diseases himself. It gets so tiring hearing people praise God for everything good, but for anything bad he had nothing to do with it. He made people, and people are depressed.
It is one thing to use this post to say that something works for you, and another to try to discourage people from using something because 'God didn't make it'.
I had tremendous success with effexor (for anyone who cares, I put up a post called 'effexor success story') so it does work for some people in treating this horrible horrible disease that GOD inflicts.
Posted by JANNBEAU on January 8, 2002, at 12:14:40
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!!, posted by zekingprawn on January 8, 2002, at 11:25:19
> Dolphin, you are right, if it works for you, then THAT IS GREAT FOR YOU. What made me realize this was reading the following that you wrote:
>
> "God did not make Effexor, Paxil, Prozac, etc. However, he did create what our body needs to survive and live."
>
> Let's not bring God into this. God may not have made EFfexor, etc... but he didn't make Penecillin, The Polio Vaccine, The small POx Vaccine, either... but he made the diseases himself. It gets so tiring hearing people praise God for everything good, but for anything bad he had nothing to do with it. He made people, and people are depressed.
>
> It is one thing to use this post to say that something works for you, and another to try to discourage people from using something because 'God didn't make it'.
>
> I had tremendous success with effexor (for anyone who cares, I put up a post called 'effexor success story') so it does work for some people in treating this horrible horrible disease that GOD inflicts.Hi, Zekingprawn: Just want to point out that your response to Dolphin is internally inconsistent. If you are going to leave God out of this, then you have to leave Him out of all of it. You cannot blame him for the depression, either!
Cheers, JannBeau
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 8, 2002, at 19:30:26
In reply to Re: effexor scares me » Dinah, posted by JANNBEAU on January 8, 2002, at 10:58:41
> Hi, Dinah. That sounds great. I'll see you at Psycho-Social-Babble if I can figure out how to find you. I am new at this,so I haven't explored all the forums, but I did realize that we were straying from the Effexor thread. Thanks for redirect.
Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020102/msgs/16409.html
Thanks for thinking of redirecting this piece,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 8, 2002, at 19:35:54
In reply to Re: Please don't use capital letters..., posted by angel1 on January 6, 2002, at 20:58:55
> > they denote shouting.
> WHATEVER!!!!!!!!!!!That's not a supportive response, so I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 8, 2002, at 19:42:14
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!!, posted by zekingprawn on January 8, 2002, at 11:25:19
> Let's not bring God into this...
Bringing God into this is OK, but should be done at Psycho-Social-Babble rather than here. Thanks,
Bob
PS: And any discussion about what should be posted where should take place at Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 8, 2002, at 19:56:07
In reply to Re: Recovered and Happy! No More Drugs for Me!! » Dolphin, posted by Cam W. on January 7, 2002, at 0:03:44
> Please back up your statements with scientific evidence. "Opinions" don't hold much water...
>
> What are "sea vegetables"? What you are describing sounds like manna, or more frighteningly, "Soylent Green"...I understand that you're skeptical and want more information, but please don't be sarcastic or put pressure on others, thanks.
Bob
Posted by JANNBEAU on January 9, 2002, at 10:43:49
In reply to Redirect: Depression and history, posted by Dr. Bob on January 8, 2002, at 19:30:26
> Here's a link:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020102/msgs/16409.html
>
> Thanks for thinking of redirecting this piece,
>
> BobThanks for the link, Dr. Bob.
Cheers,
JannBeau
Posted by Cindylou on January 9, 2002, at 12:46:10
In reply to Re: please be civil « [exasperated sigh!] (nm), posted by Cam W. on January 8, 2002, at 20:50:43
Posted by nean on January 10, 2002, at 10:16:23
In reply to Re: Effexor XR cold turkey, posted by nean on January 4, 2002, at 14:45:25
Just wanted to report in. Mainly for new people like me who wonder on to this site. I've been off for 8 days after taking 150mg for almost a year. I don't feel 100%, but the worse of it seems to be over for me. I can at least function now. Thanks again for being out here as a source of information.
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