![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 23 to 47 of 62. Go back in thread:
Posted by Rick on January 19, 2002, at 3:36:36
In reply to Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it?, posted by AnneL on January 18, 2002, at 23:58:22
I guess everyone's different. I also take 1 mg, but all in the a.m. I've been taking it for two and a half years, starting at 3 mg, and have found I need less over time. One day a few months ago I went on an overnight trip and managed to leave my Klonopin back home (not smart). I ended up going about 42 hours between doses. The only result was a moderate rebound of my social anxiety during the latter part of that period.
Based the incident you related, my suggestion would be that, as long as you're on Klonopin, you should deny yourself the special-occasion booze. Or take just a very small amount of Klonopin on those nights, e.g. 1/4 mg, which should be safe even if it's potentiated by a factor of four. Then take more the next morning or afternoon if you feel any withdrawal symptoms.
Other things to consider: See if you can get by on less (but with S-L-O-W taper). If your insomnia stems from anxiety, then Klonopin doesn't need to be sedating to help you get to sleep and stay asleep. It just needs to keep anxiety in check. Even though I take it all in the a.m., and don't find it sedating unless I take more than usual, it still relieves the insomnia I used to have.
Rick
> I have been on Klonopin 1 mg. at bedtime for almost one year now, first as an anti-anxiety agent to get me through the start-up of Effexor and then as a sleep agent. I find it extremely sedating which is great for sleep.
>
> But, I haven't heard anyone talk about how it feels to miss a dose. I have not taken it on 2 or 3 ocassions when I have indulged in 3 or more alcoholic beverages, the last time being New Year's Eve. By 4AM, I was in the midst of a severe Klonopin withdrawal. I really feel for those who are addicted to drugs like heroin, etc.
> The only thing that took away the body twitching, extreme anxiety, etc., was a dose of Klonopin at 4:30 AM. It was a living hell for 30 minutes and I dread the day when I taper off of this drug. Any comments?
Posted by Rick on January 19, 2002, at 3:46:14
In reply to Klonipin- low abuse potential? I think so..., posted by manowar on January 18, 2002, at 16:04:04
But I think you could narrow the VERY addicting agents to:
> Nicotine (Women seem to have a harder time than men with this one-generally)
> Heroin
> Crack cocaine
> Methamphetamine
> Xanax or Diazepam (I can't spell the trade name)
>
> Anyone care to add to this list?Chocolate
Potato Chips ("Crisps" for British P-B-ers)
>
> BTW: I'm very intrigued about the other less known benzos that have even a longer half-life than Klonipin. Could they even be more effective? Anyone ever used such benzos?Tranxene. Excellent for generalized anxiety, not useful for social phobia (for me, anyway), maybe useful at high doses for panic. Since I have social phobia, I wouldn't consider ANY benzo but Klonopin. Xanax wasn't even in the same league. Valium was useless.
Rick
Posted by Dinah on January 19, 2002, at 9:23:37
In reply to Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it?, posted by AnneL on January 18, 2002, at 23:58:22
It's odd how people's responses to medications are so different. When I'm not anxious I just don't take any Klonopin and have never had any bad reaction from it. I've been off sometimes as much as a week with no problems. Of course, there may be something going on in my brain that explains both the lack of anxiety (NOT a normal state for me) and the lack of Klonopin withdrawal symptoms.
Posted by AnneL on January 19, 2002, at 10:29:07
In reply to Tapering Klonopin/Other Benzos, posted by Mr. Scott on January 19, 2002, at 1:21:25
Scott,
Thanks so much for your two cents! I will be discussing your suggestions with my pdoc next Thursday. Do you know if Benzos in general interfere with our natural stages of sleep (I am no expert here) like REM (rapid eye movement) which I understand is necessary for "good" quality sleep and therefore waking up feeling rested? I wake up like a zombie, stumble through making my morning espresso (latte in fact) and am late for work almost every morning because I can't get my -ss in gear. Some cognitive dulling which is relieved by liberal doses of caffiene. I don't remember when I have been able to tolerate this much caffiene without getting anxious or jittery! Thanks, Anne
Posted by Emme on January 19, 2002, at 11:41:08
In reply to Re: Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it? » AnneL, posted by Dinah on January 19, 2002, at 9:23:37
> It's odd how people's responses to medications are so different. When I'm not anxious I just don't take any Klonopin and have never had any bad reaction from it. I've been off sometimes as much as a week with no problems. Of course, there may be something going on in my brain that explains both the lack of anxiety (NOT a normal state for me) and the lack of Klonopin withdrawal symptoms.
It's the same for me. I use it every day, but my dosage varies a lot depending on my needs. I may need more than 1 mg one day, 0.5 mg or 0.25 mg another. There just never seems to be any negative effects from changing the dosage on an as-needed basis. Based on this, I suspect that if I reach of state of really low anxiety, I won't have any problem just not taking it. Obviously, everyone's body is different and your mileage may vary. I feel lucky to have found a drug that works so easily for me.
Emme
Posted by Mr.Scott on January 19, 2002, at 15:15:57
In reply to Do Benzos interfere with REM sleep, etc? » Mr. Scott, posted by AnneL on January 19, 2002, at 10:29:07
Anne,
Unfortunately the cognitive dulling has not been separated from the anti-anxiety effect in any currently marketed benzodiazepine. The less potent benzos like tranxene have less cognitive dulling, and caffeine quickly reverses much of the difficulty, whereas caffiene hardly reverses the effect of klonopin in my experience. However Tranxene probably isn't too good for Panic and hypomania. Klonopin binds very tightly to receptors and is difficult to displace. Trade-offs...Trade-offs...I guess.
Benzo's shorten the amount of time one spends in late stage REM sleep in studies and may indeed account for your difficulties, or the action of the drug itself may be making you tired in the morning. Maybe you don't need it right now and to taper it sounds reasonable.
When I was flaming with anxiety and needed it I didn't notice the side effects at all, but once the anxiety subsides a bit I would begin to.
Scott
Posted by manowar on January 19, 2002, at 16:44:46
In reply to Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it?, posted by AnneL on January 18, 2002, at 23:58:22
> I have been on Klonopin 1 mg. at bedtime for almost one year now, first as an anti-anxiety agent to get me through the start-up of Effexor and then as a sleep agent. I find it extremely sedating which is great for sleep.
>
> But, I haven't heard anyone talk about how it feels to miss a dose. I have not taken it on 2 or 3 ocassions when I have indulged in 3 or more alcoholic beverages, the last time being New Year's Eve. By 4AM, I was in the midst of a severe Klonopin withdrawal. I really feel for those who are addicted to drugs like heroin, etc.
> The only thing that took away the body twitching, extreme anxiety, etc., was a dose of Klonopin at 4:30 AM. It was a living hell for 30 minutes and I dread the day when I taper off of this drug. Any comments?Hi,
1st of all, if it helps you, don't stop taking it. Why stop taking it, as long as you don't have a problem abusing it?
For me, to miss a dose is not a big deal. I may not sleep as well, and I definitely will be more agitated the next day.
BTW: As long as you don't have a problem with alcohol and you don't plan to drive, try a Klonipin with a beer or two. The beer --for me-- practically doubles the effect of the Klonipin. I just do that once in a while, when I REALLY feel like FEELING warm and fuzzy.
When I've been forced to stop taking it in the past, I cut down the dosage by .5 mg per week, and I didn't have a problem with withdrawal. Some folks would probably do themselves a favor by cutting down by just .25 mg a week. But yeah, trying to stop cold turkey is not a fun experience.
I sure can tell when I miss a dose--so I try not to. It sucks that I have to take such a physically addictive drug, but at least it doesn't seem to be psychologically addictive for me. I don't ever have a compulsion to take more than my daily dose. There is no other drug that comes close for helping me with mood stability for my cyclothymia.
Tim
Posted by manowar on January 19, 2002, at 16:52:03
In reply to Re: Do Benzos interfere with REM sleep, etc? » AnneL, posted by Mr.Scott on January 19, 2002, at 15:15:57
Posted by IsoM on January 19, 2002, at 17:43:41
In reply to Doesn't too much REM sleep cause depression? (nm) » Mr.Scott, posted by manowar on January 19, 2002, at 16:52:03
Hey, Tim, I want to hear more on that, where you heard it from, any links, etc. I've seemed to have too much REM sleep & not enough deep sleep. Maybe longer use of adrafinil will help with deep sleep, but I'd like to know more from you.
I have read that mild sleep deprivation helps depression but bounces back once the depressed person gets a good sleep again.
Posted by Rick on January 20, 2002, at 0:34:17
In reply to Re: Do Benzos interfere with REM sleep, etc? » AnneL, posted by Mr.Scott on January 19, 2002, at 15:15:57
>Unfortunately the cognitive dulling has not been separated from the anti-anxiety effect in any currently marketed benzodiazepine.
I wonder how soon the more receptor-specific benzos being developed by Roche and others will be marketed (assuming no major problems surface). Supposedly, this new generation of benzos will provide the same anti-anxiety benefits without the side effects.
>Tranxene probably isn't too good for Panic and hypomania.
Definitely not good for social phobia either. But if my primary problem was GAD I'd go for Tranxene, pronto. Your posts describe Tranxene perfectly.
Rick
Posted by Rick on January 20, 2002, at 1:02:51
In reply to Re: Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it? » AnneL, posted by manowar on January 19, 2002, at 16:44:46
> I sure can tell when I miss a dose--so I try not to. It sucks that I have to take such a physically addictive drug, but at least it doesn't seem to be psychologically addictive for me. I don't ever have a compulsion to take more than my daily dose.Sorry if this seems picky, but since benzophobes love to cry about how benzos are "addictive", I had to chime in.
The personal situation you've described doesn't sound at all like addiction, but rather dependence (in your case, a physical dependence). Addiction means you crave more and more. Assuming the benzo is providing theraputic value, there's absolutely nothing wrong with dependence, other than a period of possible distress if and when you discontinue the med. Yes, some people taking benzos for valid medicinal purposes do indeed become truly "addicted", and understandably have horror stories to tell, but this is definitely the exception to the rule.
Rick
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 20, 2002, at 13:17:13
In reply to Re: Do Benzos interfere with REM sleep, etc? » Mr.Scott, posted by Rick on January 20, 2002, at 0:34:17
"I wonder how soon the more receptor-specific benzos being developed by Roche and others will be marketed (assuming no major problems surface). Supposedly, this new generation of benzos will provide the same anti-anxiety benefits without the side effects."
I will be the first one in Line at the pharmacy when the do come out!!
Scott
Posted by AnneL on January 20, 2002, at 15:39:45
In reply to Re: Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it? » AnneL, posted by manowar on January 19, 2002, at 16:44:46
Thanks Tim for your response. It sounds reasonable, if it works why not keep on taking it.
I do not feel "addicted", I do not "crave" Klonopin, but do have dependence on it. Let's put it this way, I have strong feelings about being on a medication that I "must" take or else I suffer from dreadful, tortured sleep/wake or become a jittery mess. Quite honestly, I don't know whether or not the Effexor I take would interfere with my sleep or not since I started both meds at the same time. Stopping Klonopin is a desired goal, but quite frankly I don't feel like expending the energy to taper off of it.
In my opinion, this is part of the amotivation that I feel since I started Effexor. :) Anne
Posted by jimmygold70 on January 21, 2002, at 15:54:00
In reply to Re: Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it? » manowar, posted by AnneL on January 20, 2002, at 15:39:45
You want to know how to get off Klonopin relatively painlessly ?
Posted by manowar on January 23, 2002, at 15:32:27
In reply to Re: Klonopin is great, but how do you get off it? » manowar, posted by Rick on January 20, 2002, at 1:02:51
>
> > I sure can tell when I miss a dose--so I try not to. It sucks that I have to take such a physically addictive drug, but at least it doesn't seem to be psychologically addictive for me. I don't ever have a compulsion to take more than my daily dose.
>
> Sorry if this seems picky, but since benzophobes love to cry about how benzos are "addictive", I had to chime in.
>
> The personal situation you've described doesn't sound at all like addiction, but rather dependence (in your case, a physical dependence). Addiction means you crave more and more. Assuming the benzo is providing theraputic value, there's absolutely nothing wrong with dependence, other than a period of possible distress if and when you discontinue the med. Yes, some people taking benzos for valid medicinal purposes do indeed become truly "addicted", and understandably have horror stories to tell, but this is definitely the exception to the rule.
>
> RickHi,
You're absolutely right Rick. Thanks for making that distinction. It is a VERY important distinction to make between dependence and addiction.Thanks,
Tim
Posted by manowar on January 24, 2002, at 16:56:41
In reply to Too much REM sleep causes depression? » manowar, posted by IsoM on January 19, 2002, at 17:43:41
> Hey, Tim, I want to hear more on that, where you heard it from, any links, etc. I've seemed to have too much REM sleep & not enough deep sleep. Maybe longer use of adrafinil will help with deep sleep, but I'd like to know more from you.
>
> I have read that mild sleep deprivation helps depression but bounces back once the depressed person gets a good sleep again.Hello again IsoM,
I found a great article today on WebMD about REM sleep and depression:
Dreams May Hold Key to Beating Depression
Divorced and Blue? When Your Ex Plays Minor Dream Role, You're Healing By Jeanie Davis
WebMD Medical News
Jan. 18, 2002 -- When a marriage hits the skids, most people get depressed. But why do some recover from divorce -- get on with their lives -- while others languish, full of depression and regret?
Their dreams may hold clues that will help their recovery, says Rosalind Cartwright, PhD, chairman of psychology at Rush University and director of the Sleep Disorder Service at Rush-Presbyterian-St. Luke's Medical Center in Chicago.
Since the 1960s, Cartwright has studied dreams to better understand their purpose. Today, most researchers think dreams are "nonsense, nothing more than flotsam and jetsam floating through your mind at night," she tells WebMD. Only recently, she's come to realize that "dreams are our mood regulators."
"Most people, if they go to bed angry, upset, anxious, blue, down, having a negative mood, they feel better in the morning," Cartwright tells WebMD. "Not the depressed; they feel worse. In the morning, they're at their lowest point. Something wrong has happened overnight. They haven't mood regulated, they've gotten worse."
Cartwright chose marital separation -- certainly an emotional, life-altering event -- to test her theory. Each volunteer was "at the point that they have decided to break up the marriage," she says. Her NIH-funded study is in its sixth year.
She has analyzed dreams of 12 depressed volunteers as well as others who were not depressed. She did not tell any volunteer whether they had scored as "depressed" or not. "I didn't want them to get treatment," she tells WebMD. "I wanted to see how they got over it on their own, because most people do."
Each volunteer slept in the Rush Sleep Disorders Center for several two-night sessions over a five-month period. During those nights, they were connected to an EEG to measure brain waves and an EOG to track eye movement indicating periods of rapid eye movement (REM) sleep, when dreaming occurs.
Normally, the first period of REM sleep involves "sparse" eye movement, says Cartwright.Depressed people typically have their first REM-dream sleep earlier in the night than non-depressed people, says Cartwright. "The first dream comes too early, and it's much too active in terms of eye movement. Their eyes are going off like fireworks, like they're watching a ping pong game, really rapid."
Cartwright and colleagues woke up each volunteer five minutes into the REM/dream period, to ask about their dream. She also saw the volunteers in her office at the beginning, middle, and end of the study period to see how they were doing. None of the volunteers received any psychotherapy or drugs during the study.
During the five months, nine of the 12 depressed people improved significantly enough that they no longer tested as depressed.
The role of the ex-spouse in the dreams signified much about this healing process, she says.The ex-spouse was present in everyone's dreams at first, along with a lot of negative feelings, anger, unhappiness, missing them, she says.
But toward the end of the study, it was clear that those getting over the depression had put the ex-spouse at a distance.
"The ex-spouse 'character' was there," says Cartwright, "but in a way that showed they were essentially unhooked from the relationship. It was no a longer reference point for how they felt about themselves or how they felt about a new person in their lives. It was irrelevant."
"It was more like, 'Thank goodness I don't have to pay attention to what he says anymore. I'm very independent, I don't have to ask his permission, don't have to worry about what he's doing. If I'm dating, I don't have to worry what he thinks about it,'" she says. "It's not that they had forgotten the person, but were enjoying reclaiming who they were, enjoying a sense of liberty."
Those who were depressed were still having negative, anxious dreams about the ex-spouse, she says.
The sheer action of waking people up during anxious dreams helped get them past the depression, Cartwright tells WebMD.
"It stops an abnormal process from continuing," she says. "Depressed people don't solve problems during their dreams, like other people do, they pile up their troubles, and the last dream of the night is the worst. They wake up in a worse mood if you let them sleep through those dreams. But if you interrupt them, they normalize and feel better in the morning."
Try it at home, Cartwright says.
With a little help from some friends, she's invented what she calls a "home dream recorder." It's not on the market just yet, and won't be until she has published her study results.
The home dream recorder has an EOG monitor and a movement monitor, so it's clear whether the person is awake or asleep. "If they're still and their eyes are moving, they're probably dreaming," she says. An alarm is programmed to go off when the EOG shows eyes are moving for five minutes. The person speaks their dream into a voice-activated tape recorder, then the equipment resets automatically. Next time REM sleep begins, the recorder activates again.
"It's the do-it-yourself approach," she says.
But it's not for everyone, Cartwright tells WebMD. "People with a history of serious depression, childhood abuse, no good love relationships, need some help rebuilding."
Eric Nofzinger, MD, is a sleep disorders specialist and associate professor of psychiatry with the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine. He has conducted functional brain imaging studies during REM sleep, and those studies too have shown that the "emotion areas" of the brain are indeed very active in the dreams of people who are depressed. He has followed Cartwright's work for a number of years.
"There is merit to her theory," Nofzinger tells WebMD. "The work she has done is very important, novel, and really is some of the only work that I know of that is trying to understand what is happening with our emotional character when we're asleep at night."
But other research has shown that while sleep-depriving a depressed person improves their mood, it's only in the short term, he says. "The effects are not long lasting, they generally reverse after the second or third day of sleep deprivation."
"I don't think anybody is at the point of saying that sleep deprivation or altering dreams is the best thing in the long-term treatment of depression," says Nofzinger. "There are a lot of things that do work, like medication and psychotherapy, and those are very well validated as the mainstay of treatment for depression. I see her work as an interesting theory that requires validation."
Posted by Jerry Ryan on August 19, 2002, at 4:54:19
In reply to Re: Klonopin -the drug of kings » manowar, posted by Rick on January 18, 2002, at 2:12:45
Hey dude. i take 1.5mg of Klonipin each day. If I was not on Klonipin (or some other benzo) I would be paranoid, agitated and occasionally violent. The benzos have been a godsend to me. i refused to take them for years, against my Dr.s advice, not wanting to take DRUGS! But now I am much more mellow, drink less beer and have become a human being again. I am a person with suicidal and homicidal tenencies. This particular med has reduced it and kept me out ouf the nuthouse or prison. I am an electrical engineer with a 150 IQ. I have discussed this with several others that have similar IQ's. When your IQ exceeds a certain level, you begin to see movies within your mind. They can become a source of torment. Everything is a picture. Words are trivial. But the Klonipin makes the incessant torment tolerable. Just my thoughts. Thanks for your thread.
PS why are you guys so paranoid. It took me some time to register. What is the deal. I have a packet sniffer on my WAN interface and could most likely hack you given enough time. It is not profitable though. Please relax. I like this place.
\
The Master of Disaster,Jerry Ryan
(845) 566-4189 if anyone needs a sympathetic ear. I understand.
Posted by Rick on August 20, 2002, at 12:01:57
In reply to Re: Klonopin -the drug of kings » Rick, posted by Jerry Ryan on August 19, 2002, at 4:54:19
> Hey dude. i take 1.5mg of Klonipin each day. If I was not on Klonipin (or some other benzo) I would be paranoid, agitated and occasionally violent. The benzos have been a godsend to me. i refused to take them for years, against my Dr.s advice, not wanting to take DRUGS! But now I am much more mellow, drink less beer and have become a human being again. I am a person with suicidal and homicidal tenencies. This particular med has reduced it and kept me out ouf the nuthouse or prison. I am an electrical engineer with a 150 IQ. I have discussed this with several others that have similar IQ's. When your IQ exceeds a certain level, you begin to see movies within your mind. They can become a source of torment. Everything is a picture. Words are trivial. But the Klonipin makes the incessant torment tolerable. Just my thoughts. Thanks for your thread.
>
> PS why are you guys so paranoid. It took me some time to register. What is the deal. I have a packet sniffer on my WAN interface and could most likely hack you given enough time. It is not profitable though. Please relax. I like this place.
> \
> The Master of Disaster,
>
> Jerry Ryan
> (845) 566-4189 if anyone needs a sympathetic ear. I understand.Great to hear your success story. (I haven't been visiting P-B lately because I've been super-busy, but I received an auto-notification of your update to this thread.) Thanks for sharing this!
A few questions, and I'm especially interested in your replies to the first two: How long have you been taking the Klonopin? Have you noticed any memory efects or other cognitive efects? Do you take it all at once or multiple dosing? Are you taking any other psychotropics?
Rick
Posted by MomO3 on August 20, 2002, at 22:25:54
In reply to Re: Klonopin -the drug of kings » Rick, posted by Jerry Ryan on August 19, 2002, at 4:54:19
What do you mean you begin to "see movies with your mind"?
I have a high IQ as well, and I have always figured that highly intelligent people understand too much for their own good. In highschool, I set out on a mission to lower my IQ by killing brain cells with alcohol. I honestly hoped it would make me happier to dumb down a little bit.
> Hey dude. i take 1.5mg of Klonipin each day. If I was not on Klonipin (or some other benzo) I would be paranoid, agitated and occasionally violent. The benzos have been a godsend to me. i refused to take them for years, against my Dr.s advice, not wanting to take DRUGS! But now I am much more mellow, drink less beer and have become a human being again. I am a person with suicidal and homicidal tenencies. This particular med has reduced it and kept me out ouf the nuthouse or prison. I am an electrical engineer with a 150 IQ. I have discussed this with several others that have similar IQ's. When your IQ exceeds a certain level, you begin to see movies within your mind. They can become a source of torment. Everything is a picture. Words are trivial. But the Klonipin makes the incessant torment tolerable. Just my thoughts. Thanks for your thread.
>
> PS why are you guys so paranoid. It took me some time to register. What is the deal. I have a packet sniffer on my WAN interface and could most likely hack you given enough time. It is not profitable though. Please relax. I like this place.
> \
> The Master of Disaster,
>
> Jerry Ryan
> (845) 566-4189 if anyone needs a sympathetic ear. I understand.
Posted by Jerry Ryan on August 21, 2002, at 4:16:45
In reply to Re: Klonopin -the drug of kings » Jerry Ryan, posted by Rick on August 20, 2002, at 12:01:57
Hey Rick, thank you for the followup. I used to take Risperidol, Lithium, Paxil, Celexia. I have for the past two years relinquished the psych doctor and just go to my regular MD. Those other meds had one effect: Sexual dysfuncion. Now I am able to enjoy that aspect of my life again, thank God!. I take my Klonipin in evenly spaced dosages but sometimes forget to take the afternoon pill due to being busy. If I do that for a few days, I can feel a difference. I have been on benzos for 8 years. They work for me. I do not care about the stigma that is assigned to them. I have been taking Corgard for blood pressure reduction for 30 years. It is a beta blocker, non addictive. I once negelected to renew a script for them and after three days was ready for the ER. Worse than benzo withdrawl. I guess it is all 'good in the hood'. Stay mellow. I take it one millisecond at a time and enjoy life to the fullest. Just ask the nurse who is now fast asleep here! He he.
Jerry
Posted by Jerry Ryan on August 21, 2002, at 4:29:42
In reply to Re: Klonopin -the drug of kings » Jerry Ryan, posted by MomO3 on August 20, 2002, at 22:25:54
Hey, MOM03. I cannot explain the situation other than everything is a picture and there are four frames going on at once in my head if I am not occupied. For example, now I am typing this and that is all I see. When I lie down. The flicks start. Maybe it is due to being somewhat manic. But I have discussed this with several people and they have concurred with my own situation. At one time, approximately 8 years ago in Stamford CT. I could not sleep for a week. I had to go to the computer room and lie on the floor so I would not awake my girl. The movies were so vivid. One had fire, one had Nazi soldiers in formation goose-stepping, one had a sandy beach with waves (Zuma in Cali, actually) and one had a circuit diagram that I was designing at the time. Not very conducive to sleep!
Hope it makes sense. Thanks for the response.
Jerry
Posted by Mr.Scott on August 21, 2002, at 11:43:19
In reply to Re: Klonopin -the drug of kings, posted by Jerry Ryan on August 21, 2002, at 4:29:42
Just eve's dropping here, but it sounds almost like a strange seizure disorder in a certain part of the brain...
Posted by utopizen on August 23, 2002, at 14:43:14
In reply to Re: Klonopin -the drug of kings, posted by Jerry Ryan on August 21, 2002, at 4:16:45
I like talking!!!
Posted by Alara on November 11, 2002, at 23:43:02
In reply to Re: Too much REM sleep causes depression?, posted by manowar on January 24, 2002, at 16:56:41
Manowar, sorry to dredge this post up again but the findings of this study are very interesting.I have always had problems with my sleep cycle. Even when I was a child, I'd experienced a delayed sleep gateway (tossing and turning for hours before finally getting to sleep) and would then fall into a very intense sleep state. Once asleep, I could sleep through an earthquake! When I'd wake up I'd often recall a lot of dreams and would often feel as though the dreams had exhausted me,making sleep a far from refreshing experience. Even then, I struggled with getting out of bed to go to school and would always sleep in until lunchtime on the weekends (until my father forced me out of bed)! On one or two occasions my father caught me asleep in another room after sleepwalking to the bathroom. lol.
As an adult my sleeping crisis has become progressively worse. Upon entering the workforce I would toss and turn for weeks without sleeping and then suddenly the insomnia pattern would be broken and I'd get some reprieve for a few weeks or so. This on-off-on-off sleeping pattern continued for many years until the age of 26, when I got glandular fever and all the problems with depression started.
At 32, all I want to do is sleep. This has been going on for a couple of years and is getting ridiculous. As I am not working at the moment, I have the luxury of sleeping as much as I want. I wake up many times during the night, usually after dreaming and often can not go back to sleep until the alarm goes off. (Of course I just throw a pillow at the stupid alarm and go back into the land of the nod. It's almost as though there's a series of dreams which must be completed before I can surface into the day. Know what I mean??) I am getting very close to getting a full-time job and need to think about an antidepressant medication which may help with my sleep cycle. Sleep really seems to be the key with my mood, anxiety levels, and ability to tolerate stress in life.
I can never sleep the night before work or an interview because of the anxiety and this really undermines my performance and confidence the next day. Paradoxically, I sleep like a log (as a way of turning off the anxiety) once I have `escaped' from the stressful situation, knowing that I have nothing on the next day.
I cannot tolerate the typical 8 hours a night sleep regime as it leaves me feeling tired and drained. I suspect that this is because i am waking up from a lot of dreams..Currently I need 13 hours a night in order to feel refreshed. I currently get a lot of this sleep during the day as I find it harder to sleep at night. Obviously I cannot cope with a full-time job with these sleep requirements so I must do something about it!Sorry, this is a long post and I don't know whether anyone can help. Just thought that it didn't hurt to ask. :-)
Alara
Posted by Rick on November 12, 2002, at 15:28:25
In reply to Sleep Cycles and Depression, posted by Alara on November 11, 2002, at 23:43:02
Just a few random thoughts about what you're dealing with...
There are SOOO many factors that could be contributing here (and I don't claim to know which are the most likely). This obviously includes some basic psychiatric components, but could also relate to meds, physical or hormonal issues ranging from obstructive sleep apnea to periodic limb movements to eating habits/nutritional deficiencies to blood sugar abnormalities and on and on.
If you haven't been to a sleep clinic, this is clearly an advisable first step. Also, if your antidepressant treatment was prescribed by a GP, you should see a psychiatrist -- preferably one who does a lot of work in sleep disorders. And if you haven't already done so, do a net search to find one of the many, highly active, sleep disorder info+discussion sites on the web. They really have a lot of info, ideas and shared experiences relating to both physical and psychiatric causes (including depression and anxiety).
It could be that whatever meds you're taking and/or the dosages/dosing schedules are making the sleep-related problem worse.
Before I started taking Klonopin (1 mg, all in the a.m.) and dropped from 220 to 180 pounds, my sleep pattern had a lot in common with yours, although to a lesser degree. I would also experience spontaneous multi-week "holidays" where the symptoms would improve temporarily. And I also had a hell of a time getting to sleep when anticipating a next-day stressor like an interview or a presentation. (Daily morning Klonopin has been a godsend in getting rid of most of this kind of insomnia-inducing anticipatory anxiety.) I don't know what proportion of my sleep improvement is due to the long-lasting effects of the Klonopin and how much is due to the weight loss that seems to have resolved my sleep apnea. (But again, I'm sure the Klonopin is a major contributor. The fact that it allowed me to get to sleep MUCH faster and sleep better even before I started losing weight is further evidence.)
While lots of people seem to relish their dreams, I find that the more I dream, and the more intense they are, the more tired I'll feel the next day, and the more prone to feeling mentally down or more susceptible to anxiety (athough still nowhere as bad as before I started taking Klonopin). That sounds at least somewhat similar to your experence. I've long found that the worst sleep and the "noisiest" and weirdest dreaming usually happens if I wake up, say, 90 minutes before the alarm is set to go off, and then go back to sleep. This is especially true if the early-awakening lasts for more than just a few minutes. Even though I know it's important to get enough sleep, I truly feel better the rest of the day by just hopping out of bed after waking up an hour or two early, rather than going back to sleep and waiting for the alarm.
Although it *did* cause insomnia, I always seemed to wake up refreshed when I was on Nardil. I'm guessing that's because it completely surpressed any dreaming (or perhaps more acurately, *recall* of any dreaming).
Re the daytime sleepiness, have you considered a stimulant? I'm partial to Provigil because it's gentler than the traditional stims, few side effects, virtual lack of abuse potential, and surprisingly doesn't affect the ability to sleep when you WANT to (after the first 2-7 days, anyway).
Again, I don't know what AD you're using, but if you do use a daytime stim maybe you could switch to a more sedating AD like Serzone or Remeron, which would help you get to sleep at night after the Provigil or other stim wears off. That, along with Klonopin, could help you get to sleep quicker, thus allowing you to get up earlier without as much difficulty.
Fyi, I'm now taking 1 mg Klonopin, 300 mg Serzone, and 100 mg Provigil, all first thing in the a.m. (although in the early weeks/months it might be better to take the former two in divided doses, especially Serzone). I've also been on Klonopin alone, and Klonopin & Provigil without the Serzone (but I have non-depressive social anxiety). With all three regimens, getting to sleep is so much easier than it was for me "pre-meds," 90% of the time. The difference is that on K alone, I'm more prone to waking early, but am almost always bright and alert when I *do* get up (might be a different story with nighttime dosing of K, which isn't recommended for more than a few weeks duration). When I add the other meds, I still get to sleep easily, but rarely wake up early. The flip side, though, is that it's harder - sometimes *a lot* -- to get up, and when I do, I'm pretty groggy. But that half-asleep feeling goes away pretty quickly, especially after I take my morning meds. The other difference is that, with the K alone, *sometimes* I'll suddenly start getting kind of fatigued, especially late afternoon. When I'm taking Provigil with it, that happens only once or twice a month.
Rick
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> Manowar, sorry to dredge this post up again but the findings of this study are very interesting.
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> I have always had problems with my sleep cycle. Even when I was a child, I'd experienced a delayed sleep gateway (tossing and turning for hours before finally getting to sleep) and would then fall into a very intense sleep state. Once asleep, I could sleep through an earthquake! When I'd wake up I'd often recall a lot of dreams and would often feel as though the dreams had exhausted me,making sleep a far from refreshing experience. Even then, I struggled with getting out of bed to go to school and would always sleep in until lunchtime on the weekends (until my father forced me out of bed)! On one or two occasions my father caught me asleep in another room after sleepwalking to the bathroom. lol.
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> As an adult my sleeping crisis has become progressively worse. Upon entering the workforce I would toss and turn for weeks without sleeping and then suddenly the insomnia pattern would be broken and I'd get some reprieve for a few weeks or so. This on-off-on-off sleeping pattern continued for many years until the age of 26, when I got glandular fever and all the problems with depression started.
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> At 32, all I want to do is sleep. This has been going on for a couple of years and is getting ridiculous. As I am not working at the moment, I have the luxury of sleeping as much as I want. I wake up many times during the night, usually after dreaming and often can not go back to sleep until the alarm goes off. (Of course I just throw a pillow at the stupid alarm and go back into the land of the nod. It's almost as though there's a series of dreams which must be completed before I can surface into the day. Know what I mean??) I am getting very close to getting a full-time job and need to think about an antidepressant medication which may help with my sleep cycle. Sleep really seems to be the key with my mood, anxiety levels, and ability to tolerate stress in life.
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> I can never sleep the night before work or an interview because of the anxiety and this really undermines my performance and confidence the next day. Paradoxically, I sleep like a log (as a way of turning off the anxiety) once I have `escaped' from the stressful situation, knowing that I have nothing on the next day.
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> I cannot tolerate the typical 8 hours a night sleep regime as it leaves me feeling tired and drained. I suspect that this is because i am waking up from a lot of dreams..Currently I need 13 hours a night in order to feel refreshed. I currently get a lot of this sleep during the day as I find it harder to sleep at night. Obviously I cannot cope with a full-time job with these sleep requirements so I must do something about it!
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> Sorry, this is a long post and I don't know whether anyone can help. Just thought that it didn't hurt to ask. :-)
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> Alara
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