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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by fachad on July 5, 2002, at 22:09:57
In reply to High dose fish oil is effective, posted by BarbaraCat on July 3, 2002, at 0:55:15
How do you people maintain bowel continence on such high doses of oils?
If I take more than about 3 grams a day, it goes right thru me and comes out undigested and unabsorbed.
Posted by fachad on July 5, 2002, at 22:16:33
In reply to Re: High dose fish oil is effective, posted by angel1 on July 3, 2002, at 20:42:46
> Do these oils cause weight gain? They are all
> composed of fat grams aren't they?I don't think you could gain weight from taking fish oil. The usual doses are a few grams a day, that amount of fat grams in not significant. (It's less than you would get from a glass of 2% milk)
Besides, if you took enough to theoretically cause weight gain, it would, um, pass out too quickly to be absorbed.
Some people are even claiming that these oils help weight loss.
Posted by BekkaH on July 5, 2002, at 22:58:38
In reply to Re: High dose fish oil is effective...as laxative, posted by fachad on July 5, 2002, at 22:09:57
> How do you people maintain bowel continence on such high doses of oils?
>
> If I take more than about 3 grams a day, it goes right thru me and comes out undigested and unabsorbed.***********************************************
Hi Fachad,Well, I think some PB members are on so many meds that cause constipation, so the anticholinergic effects of the meds probably counteract the "Roto-Rooter" qualities of the oils. Also, I've noticed that some meds that are not classified as anticholinergic (according to those tables we discussed above) are still quite constipating.
Bekka
Posted by johnj on July 6, 2002, at 0:00:29
In reply to Re: 'duel ' ! (nm), posted by colin wallace on July 5, 2002, at 8:02:29
Your sense of humor really adds a definte light touch to this board. Hope the incarceration wasn't too harsh on you! How has everything being going with you? Meds still the same?
Cheers
Johnj
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 6, 2002, at 1:35:41
In reply to High dose fish oil is effective, posted by BarbaraCat on July 3, 2002, at 0:55:15
That's $70 a month. It's OmegaRx touted by Dr. Sears in his book. A therapeutic dose for us happily-challenged folks is 10-18 grams, which turns out to be around 2 tablespoons a day, and the bottle is 9 oz. Another very decent brand is Carlson's lemon flavored cod liver oil for around $13 a bottle. It has 2 grams EPA/DHA per tablespoon vs. per teaspoon like the OmegaRx. I don't mind the taste at all and no, it does not run out of me in smelly oily rivulets. Come to think of it, my cats have been very attentive to me lately. And here I thought the little stinkers were being nice to ME instead of my fishy vapor trails. - BarbaraCat
Posted by colin wallace on July 6, 2002, at 13:16:22
In reply to Welcome back Colin, posted by johnj on July 6, 2002, at 0:00:29
Hi john,
Unfortunately,I've been too ill to look in for a while; a relative's illness sparked another deep depression, which has been amplifying the mood 'undulations' I've been experiencing, even when otherwise quite well.
Meds are still: zoloft 25mg, sam-e 200mg, diazepam 5mg, amitriptyline 10mg.Moods are awful;erratically moving from stupefied, contemplatively suicidal, absent, enraged (this is by far the worst),bitter and irritable, 'runaway' irrational thoughts- and even occasionally high (singing aloud etc.)
Have asked my doc. to dish out a bag of lithium (300mg of lithobid would do nicely!)or a smidgen of lamactil- but have to wait a (further!!) month for a psych. consultation.(I could ******* throttle my GP.)If his head was on fire, I wonder how he'd feel if I said 'sorry pal, I've got a fire extinguisher here, but you'll have to wait a few weeks until I can find someone authorised to use it!!'
I don't need a psych. phd to work out that I'm cycling, quickly and dangerously.Suspected I was bipolar 11 or something for a while.
Actually drove to a psych. hospital today, but it was such a dump (like a Victorian era asylum!)
that I quickly opted for the pub instead.And the beer tasted like U-boat engine oil.
****, I hate the UK!!!!How are things with you anyhow?
Col. -__-
Posted by johnj on July 6, 2002, at 21:47:33
In reply to Re: Welcome back Colin John J, posted by colin wallace on July 6, 2002, at 13:16:22
Colin,
I am really sorry to hear about things taking a turn for the worse. Hopefully, the lithium will level things out for you. I tried to cut my lithobid little bit from 600 mg to 300 mg and it did make me feel worse so I do believe it plays an important part in my overall mental state. It must be that time of year since I have been fighting a battle myself. I feel I am on a tightrope and I could go bonkers or feel completely "normal" depending on which way I fall.
I did narrow one reason for the sleep problems to plain old stress from work due to a dictator jackass of a boss. I wasn't fairing too bad, but another young engineer was taking a lot of abuse and I just couldn't standby and do nothing to help the poor guy. The higher ups have slapped him down a peg; however, I don't know what position that will put me in after the dust clears. But, I do know that me just sitting by and seeing somebody berated for no reason is not tolerable and was causing much turmoil.
As far as my meds go, I gave the following a whirl:
1) another dose of sam-e, makes me anxious and adds to the insomnia. OH well, what is one more sleepless night?? I was hoping it would workout and I might give it one more try.2) Fish oil. It seemed to make me calm and help with heart palps, but I had way too much dreaming and it kind of messed up my sleep after a while. Feel better not taking it. I wonder if anybody else has experienced increased rem on it?
3) I had one excellent week in May when I quit remeron. 3 days after quitting I seemed to snap out of the remeron fog, and I had added 10 mgs of imipramine. I felt the best in ten years, but it only lasted for about 8 days or so. I was trying to titrate up on imipramine to get off the nortryptline, but I had nights of NO sleep at all. I would sweat a lot too.
I had to increase my dose of benzo(tranzene) from 7.5 mg to 22.5 mg to get relief. I was on 15 mg until a few years ago and now I have to add a little more to help me sleep. I guess benzo sleep is better than none. But, if I stay in bed and ruminate after waking up and let the irrational thoughts and worry start I pay for it all day.
I have come to realize that anxiety/worry give way to irrational thinking for me. I have found myself very irritable and my poor wife is the recipient of that which makes me feel worse. On top of that she is looking for a job so the stress around home is on high alert. I had to give up excercise completely for the time being and not being allowed to help myself makes me feel very helpless. I started having trouble afte working in the garden for a few hours. It probably is related to the heat so I am not sure what is going on. I have been on a low sodium diet and found out that is not the best for one that is on lithium so make sure you replace what you sweat out working out. How is the working out going? Hope you can still get some in to distract you for a while. Take care
Regards,
Johnj
Posted by Zo on July 7, 2002, at 0:51:02
In reply to Re: Welcome back Colin John J, posted by colin wallace on July 6, 2002, at 13:16:22
Gee, I feel like sending a care package with. . things. .. in it that you don't. .. have available in the UK, nnww.Sorry things have been hairy. See you still have great wit.
Zo
Posted by colin wallace on July 7, 2002, at 17:15:23
In reply to Re: Welcome back Colin » colin wallace, posted by Zo on July 7, 2002, at 0:51:02
>
> Gee, I feel like sending a care package with. . things. .. in it that you don't. .. have available in the UK, nnww.>Thanks Zo.. send me that package and I'll be your best friend...a few of those fizzy haldol chews would be great.
Col.
Posted by colin wallace on July 7, 2002, at 17:49:41
In reply to Re: Welcome back Colin (COLIN), posted by johnj on July 6, 2002, at 21:47:33
Hi John,
Would I be right in thinking that you've yet to try out an SSRI ? I'm sure you've already given this some thought, but they can really make a big impact on the anxiety (the short term worsening usually pays dividends, if you can weather it).Zoloft basically eradicated the remnants of my once crippling anxiety and took me a stage further than sam-e alone in tackling the depression.
Unfortunately, I was recntly persuaded to try a 'therapeutic' dose of zoloft, got catapulted into rage/mania as a result, and found myself accelerating hard towards a barrier in my car, hell-bent on killing myself.Things have been spiralling downhill since then, as I'm under phenomenal personal stress right now too.
Rode 30 or so miles today, great anger outlet, and having reduced the zoloft to virtually nothing has helped.
Have a feeling like a tight knot or constriction in the left side of my head, and keeping those cascading thoughts and sickening depressive troughs under wraps is exhausting.
Feels like trying to dig my way out of an avalanche with a teaspoon.But dig I will, 'cos I've been here before, and far worse too.So **** it.You sound as though you need a holiday yourself!
Cheers
Col.ps. What happened to Ron Hill? Did he get shipped off to break rocks at the colony too??
Posted by johnj on July 7, 2002, at 18:37:57
In reply to Re: Welcome back Colin ------John J, posted by colin wallace on July 7, 2002, at 17:49:41
Colin:
You are right I have not tried an ssri yet. I see so much conflicting info regarding them I am hesitant to try. You know, the receptor damage theory, the poop out theory, etc. I know that is very individual, but I don't know if I can take another trial of a new med right now. Too much going on that is stressing me and I don't want to be kicked in the teeth if something doesn't work well. My depression is so interlocked with anxiety that if can get a med that will let me work out I can help myself. I was thinking of lexapro, but it has not come out yet. But, I do hear zoloft has a good track record, but it is hard to give it a try. How much zoloft did you increase to that triggered things for you?
Haven't heard from Ron in a while, I don't think Dr.B has him banished, but I could have missed it.
take care of yourself!
JOhnj
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 8, 2002, at 8:08:15
In reply to Re: Welcome back ColinZo, posted by colin wallace on July 7, 2002, at 17:15:23
> Thanks Zo.. send me that package and I'll be your best friend...a few of those fizzy haldol chews would be great.
You may be kidding, but others may take you seriously. Please do not ask for medication directly from or offer medication directly to others here:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#illegal
Zo's already blocked for other reasons.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted. Thanks.
Posted by colin wallace on July 8, 2002, at 12:07:58
In reply to Re: directly asking for or offering medication » colin wallace, posted by Dr. Bob on July 8, 2002, at 8:08:15
Apologies Bob,
That was not meant to be taken seriously, naturally.Just banter.
Best wishes
Col.
Posted by colin wallace on July 8, 2002, at 12:30:52
In reply to Re: Welcome back Colin ---(COLIN), posted by johnj on July 7, 2002, at 18:37:57
> > I do hear zoloft has a good track record, but it is hard to give it a try. How much zoloft did you increase to that triggered things for you?
>
John,I think that Zoloft is an excellent med. for tackling both depression and anxiety.I personally way overshot my individual threshold of around 12.5mg- half the dose prescribed to juniors.The recommended starting dose for adults is 50mg, and attempting this dose at my docs behest is what precipitated all the problems, in my case.Actually, 25mg is overpowering for me.
However, you can easily start up an ssri in such micro-doses (by using a pill splitter/crusher)if you're highly med sensitive- this way you can be cautious and still function at work.
I am now going to discontinue all meds though, until I can begin treatment with a stabalizing med. such as lithium- then I'll look at adding the antidepressant, when I've got a grip of my haywire mood crashes and irritability.Seems wise.Col.
Posted by johnj on July 8, 2002, at 14:38:06
In reply to Re: Welcome back Colin ---(COLIN), posted by colin wallace on July 8, 2002, at 12:30:52
Colin,
Do you think it is wise to discontinue all meds? Wouldn't that cause a rebound of anxiety, especially the diazepam? Did you go back down on the zoloft to see if that levels things out for you? I was sleeping well until I had to go back to work today and was agitated much of the night. Didn't help that my wife and I fought some of the day and her job search is putting a strain on things. Have to move to a new apartment and that just adds to the stress. Sleep is the first thing that goes in me and if I could sleep I could cope much better. My sleep usually improves as the week progresses.
I am curious to see how a small dose of ssri and a straight sleeping pill like ambien would do for me. Sleep....the factor I need to handle. But, maybe the ssri would take care of the anxiety which I believe causes much of my problems. Why can't a doctor figure this out? Take care and let me know how the med adjustment goes.
Johnj
Posted by Leighwit on July 8, 2002, at 18:33:05
In reply to Re: High dose fish oil is effective, posted by Ed O`Flaherty on July 3, 2002, at 15:02:54
I favor Eskimo-3 from Sweden -1500mg per 5ml in liquid form with a taste that is not too fishy (capsules available too).
Oh My Gosh, Dr. O', you must be joking. I'm following your Eskimo 3 recommendation religiously, but I cannot believe you don't think it tastes fishy. I love salmon, but I literally gag while ingesting the Eskimo 3 off a spoon. I'm going to have to find out more about that lemon flavored oil Barbaracat is mixing with her fish oil.
Laurie
Posted by Shawn. T. on July 9, 2002, at 0:56:56
In reply to Re: High dose fish oil is effective, posted by angel1 on July 3, 2002, at 20:42:46
They are not like normal fats, and do not cause weight gain. DHEA, the main ingredient in fish oil, has been shown to be good for your heart as well as your brain.
Posted by Shawn. T. on July 9, 2002, at 18:18:19
In reply to Re: High dose fish oil is effective, posted by Shawn. T. on July 9, 2002, at 0:56:56
Cortisol, the stress hormone, is reduced by DHEA. This is because DHEA is a precursor to androgens, which reduce cortisol levels in the bloodstream. DHEA is found in fish oil.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=9264158&dopt=Abstract
Posted by Ron Hill on July 9, 2002, at 19:32:47
In reply to High dose fish oil relieves stress..., posted by Shawn. T. on July 9, 2002, at 18:18:19
Hi Shawn,
One of us is confused. Is it me or you? As I understand it, DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) is an omega-3 fatty acid found in high concentrations in fish oil. On the other hand, DHEA (dehydroepiandrosterone) is in the steroid family (I think) and not found in fish oil.
If this is a boo-boo on your part, don't feel bad. I make mistakes all the time. If on the other hand, you have read somewhere that fish oil does indeed contain significant quantities of DHEA, then please let me know the source of the information.
Thanks for posting. I found the abstract on DHEA worthwhile (for reasons other than fish oil).
-- Ron
P.S. A couple of days ago I began to take 2 g/day of EPA/DHA in a natural fish oil form. I'm very pleased so far. I'm glad Barbcat posted her experience with it, since it was her post that prompted me to give it a trial.
--------->They are not like normal fats, and do not cause weight gain. DHEA, the main ingredient in fish oil, has been shown to be good for your heart as well as your brain.
------
> Cortisol, the stress hormone, is reduced by DHEA. This is because DHEA is a precursor to androgens, which reduce cortisol levels in the bloodstream. DHEA is found in fish oil.
>
>
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=9264158&dopt=Abstract
Posted by Shawn. T. on July 9, 2002, at 20:31:05
In reply to Re: Shawn, are you confusing DHA with DHEA? » Shawn. T., posted by Ron Hill on July 9, 2002, at 19:32:47
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 9, 2002, at 21:21:40
In reply to Re: Shawn, are you confusing DHA with DHEA? » Shawn. T., posted by Ron Hill on July 9, 2002, at 19:32:47
Yes. Shawn. I double that. Fish oil does not contain DHEA, but maybe it should. DHEA is a steroid implicated in many growing older ailments. I personally take 15 mg DHEA drops and 2 tablespoons fish oil - high grade, mind you, and along with my increase (30% that is) in armour thyroid, why, I feel A-OK.
> Hi Shawn,
>
> One of us is confused. Is it me or you? As I understand it, DHA (docosahexaenoic acid) is an omega-3 fatty acid found in high concentrations in fish oil. On the other hand, DHEA (dehydroepiandrosterone) is in the steroid family (I think) and not found in fish oil.
>
> If this is a boo-boo on your part, don't feel bad. I make mistakes all the time. If on the other hand, you have read somewhere that fish oil does indeed contain significant quantities of DHEA, then please let me know the source of the information.
>
> Thanks for posting. I found the abstract on DHEA worthwhile (for reasons other than fish oil).
>
> -- Ron
>
> P.S. A couple of days ago I began to take 2 g/day of EPA/DHA in a natural fish oil form. I'm very pleased so far. I'm glad Barbcat posted her experience with it, since it was her post that prompted me to give it a trial.
> ---------
>
> >They are not like normal fats, and do not cause weight gain. DHEA, the main ingredient in fish oil, has been shown to be good for your heart as well as your brain.
>
> ------
>
> > Cortisol, the stress hormone, is reduced by DHEA. This is because DHEA is a precursor to androgens, which reduce cortisol levels in the bloodstream. DHEA is found in fish oil.
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=9264158&dopt=Abstract
Posted by johnj on July 9, 2002, at 23:18:22
In reply to Re: Shawn, are you confusing DHA with DHEA? » Shawn. T., posted by Ron Hill on July 9, 2002, at 19:32:47
HI Ron:
Colin asked about you since his banishment from alcatraz is over. How have you been?
Let me know how the fish oil works for you. I had some positive responses early on, but had a lot of REM on it so I gave it up. I might try it again to see what happens, but I wonder if I am the only one with such a strange experience.
Studying for the FE has been on/off lately. My wife is looking for a job, we need to move, my boss has been an ass, and I am having sleeping trouble so the energy is not there. I am trying to take things as they come. Hope you are doing well. What brand of fish oil are you using. I used a Walmart brand and although I didn't notice it she said my breath reaked.
JOhnj
Posted by Ron Hill on July 10, 2002, at 10:55:28
In reply to Re: Shawn, are you confusing DHA with DHEA? » Ron Hill, posted by BarbaraCat on July 9, 2002, at 21:21:40
Hi Barb,
I've been reading bits and pieces about omega-3 PUFA's for a couple of years but never gave them a trial (nor did I fully investigate the literature on the subject) until a few days ago. When I found out, via your post, that Dr. Barry Sears is now advocating omega-3 supplementation, I was compelled to look deeper into this fishy omega-3 issue. I value Dr. Sears' opinions because I have found his Zone diet to be quite helpful.
Long-story-short, I am currently taking roughly 10g/day of natural fish oil concentrate (in capsule form) containing 1200g/day DHA and 1800g/day of EPA. (Recall that I also take 600 mg/day Lithobid and 400 mg/day SAM-e and that I am bipolar II). So far, I really like the effect the omega-3's have on my brain [with the exception that I have been experiencing some difficulty falling asleep (small amount of hypomania?) which may or may not be related to the fish oil consumption]. Further, almost everything I read on this subject makes sense.
Here's my question Barb. The literature almost unanimously points to DHA as the omega-3 PUFA that is providing most of the body and mind health benefits. Therefore, knowledgeable professionals, such as Dr. Anthony Stoll, market products containing almost 100% DHA. Conversely, the product sold by Dr. Sears', for example, contains DHA and EPA, and so do natural fish oils. Which do you think is better, DHA alone or DHA with EPA?
On the one hand, most all of the research is pointing to DHA as the most beneficial fish oil ingredient. On the other hand, I've seen it over and over again where the initial research shows one thing and we later find out that extracting the component from its natural matrix was not the best approach after all. What da ya think?
A few days ago you posted that you were going through a rough spot in the road of life. Are you back on level ground?
-- Ron
Posted by colin wallace on July 10, 2002, at 12:14:11
In reply to Re: What's best; DHA alone or DHA with EPA et al? » BarbaraCat, posted by Ron Hill on July 10, 2002, at 10:55:28
Glad to see you're still around Ron- I haven't looked in for a few months (took a nosedive). Hope you're faring well right now.I see you're up to 400mg of Sam-e? Ambitious!I trust you managed to overcome the flash anger issue- if so, do you attribute that to the fishy intervention?
10 gms a day is a lot- you must feel as though you've swallowed a giant squid if you're unfortunate enough to burp.
The broken sleep and outlandish dreams proved too much for me though, at a mere 3g daily.
Currently feel like death on toast, so I'm going away for a few weeks.
Stay well,Col.
Posted by colin wallace on July 10, 2002, at 12:38:53
In reply to Re: Discontinue?---(COLIN), posted by johnj on July 8, 2002, at 14:38:06
John,
Sorry to hear you're undergoing some personal strain at the moment- sleep disruption is the worst stress inducer for me aswell;luckily a tiny dose of amitrip. works miracles for me.
Your doc. doesn't seem to be too...imaginative when it comes to meds does he?!Why not run the ssri suggestion past him? Untreated anxiety is hugely stressful, and may well account for much of your woes- that's how I became depressed and suicidal initially.And I'm firmly pro-benzo too- I would undoubtedly have finished myself off if it weren't for xanax, which I used liberally for some time, tapered and discontinued without difficulty.
Anyway, here endeth my Zoloft trial for the time being- still think it's a superb med., but I've learned the hard way that AD'S accentuate my mood swings.Perhaps when I eventually get prescribed a mood stabalizer, I'll take stock again.
(need it desperately now...was literally suicidal this morning, and in a furious mental state- felt much better after my evening sam-e.)Gotta run, packing a suitcase for a hol., seeing as I wimped out of the 'asylum'.Need some sunshine, or I'll end up in a cask.
Col.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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