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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 65. Go back in thread:
Posted by trialerror on September 3, 2002, at 20:54:55
In reply to Re: Ecstasy and the use of Benadryl the next morning, posted by crepuscular on September 3, 2002, at 11:18:39
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,784711,00.html
ECSTASY NOT DANGEROUS, SAY SCIENTISTS
Sarah Boseley, health editor
Monday September 2, 2002
The GuardianThree leading psychologists have provoked an outcry by claiming that the dance drug ecstasy may not be dangerous and that some of its ill-effects may be imaginary.
The drug has been blamed for causing deaths and permanent brain damage, but the psychologists are strongly critical of animal and human studies into its effects, claiming that they are misleading and overestimate the harm ecstasy - scientifically known as MDMA - can cause.
Other scientists insisted that those who took ecstasy were undoubtedly risking their health and their life.
Two of the scientists challenging the established view are British and the third is American. Dr Jon Cole is a reader in addictive behaviour and Harry Sumnall is a postdoctoral researcher, both at Liverpool University. Professor Charles Grob is director of the division of child and adolescent psychiatry at the Harbor-UCLA Medical Centre in California.
Writing in the magazine the Psychologist, published by the British Psychological Society, they claim that many of the studies since 1995 have been flawed. They also accuse researchers of bias.
Ecstasy is said to affect cells in the brain which produce serotonin, the chemical known to influence mood. But the changes observed involved the degeneration of nerve fibres, which can be regrown, and not the cell bodies themselves, the psychologists say.
They accuse other scientists of minimising the impact of data suggesting that ecstasy exposure had no long-term effects. Although numerous tests were run on volunteers, only positive results were reported in detail, they say. "This suggests that hypotheses concerning the long-term effects of ecstasy are not being uniformly substantiated and lends support to the idea that ecstasy is not causing long-term effects associated with the loss of serotonin," write the authors.
The article is critical of the way studies involving young users have been conducted. They point out that many psychological problems start in adolescence anyway, ecstasy users invariably took other drugs as well, and some of the symptoms reported mirrored those caused by simply staying awake all night and dancing.
Most of the young people in the studies were volunteers from universities which raised questions about how representative they were of the population, the article says.
Most studies have failed to pinpoint ecstasy as the cause of problems, they say, and the animal studies were flawed and inconclusive.
They suggested that the long-term effects of the drug might be "iatrogenic", which is defined by the New Webster's dictionary as "caused by the mannerisms or treatment of a physician, an imaginary illness of the patient brought about by the physician".
Paul Betts, whose daughter, Leah, died after taking the drug in 1995, called the article "despicable".
Three other ecstasy experts writing in the Psychologist dismissed the notion that symptoms of long-term ecstasy use were all in the mind.
Dr Rodney Croft, a research fellow at the Swinburne University of Technology in Hawthorn, Australia, said: "There is strong evidence that ecstasy does cause impairment... although conclusions drawn from such evidence cannot be infallible, I believe the strength of this evidence makes 'danger' the most reasonable message for the researchers to be broadcasting."
About two million ecstasy tablets are believed to be taken by clubbers in the UK every weekend. Deaths linked to the drug have risen in the past decade. Between 1993 and 1997, there were 72. In 2000, there were 27, although 19 had other drugs in their system.
The exact cause of death cannot always be established, but where it has been, it was often dehydration.
Posted by shar on September 3, 2002, at 22:44:24
In reply to Re: Ecstasy and the use of Benadryl the next morning » alberto, posted by fachad on September 2, 2002, at 5:36:12
ok, if I'm understanding this correctly, the poster is merely asking whether benadryl will interact with the illegal drug he/she used.
Like, someone could post about having done too much coke and needs to take some benadryl and will it be safe.
Or crack. Or heroin.
I don't think the post is even appropriate for this board. IMHO, that is. Moreover, I tend to agree with lost boy and others about the person's approach to life. This board is full of people who are trying to get back on track, and someone bent on derailing just doesn't seem to warrant our "help" so s/he can continue illegal drug use.
Surely there must be an Ecstasy site somewhere.
Shar
Posted by Jerrympls on September 3, 2002, at 23:03:05
In reply to Ecstasy board?, posted by shar on September 3, 2002, at 22:44:24
I would think the last thing a illicit drug user would want to hear is another negative judgemental voice deeming his or her chosen as undeserving of our "help." Instead, since we are all apparently trying to get our lives back on track, wouldn't we want to lend a helping hand in regards to factual information of drug abuse and addiction help resources or simply stay out of the conversation completely?
I do no agree with illegal drug use & abuse, however, I refuse to waste my hard earned energy damning the lifestyle choices of another.
I'll probably get flamed for this - but c'mon people - Dr. Bob has other boards for posting personal judgements and if you don't like that this person even asked for out "help" then go on to the next message and put energy into helping someone with depression (or another mood disorder).
Geesh.
Posted by fachad on September 4, 2002, at 1:08:18
In reply to Ecstasy board?, posted by shar on September 3, 2002, at 22:44:24
That was a perfectly appropriate question, IMHO. This board is about psycho pharmaceuticals.
The general assumption is that they are medically and legally sanctioned drugs, administered by a physician. But really this board is about chemicals that interact with our nervous systems, and change our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors.
The differences between legal and illegal drugs are not as great as some people imagine. I am not condoning illegal psychoactive drugs; I am not even sure whether I wholeheartedly condone legal/medical psych drugs!
But the fact that the government has declared some chemicals illegal, and allows others to be aggressively pushed for profit, does not change the scientific fact that the distinction is far thinner than most people realize.
J. Allen Hobson, Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School states this point quite nicely in his excellent book, The Dream Drugstore:
"The easiest brain-mind principle of all to grasp is this fundamental rule of psychopharmacology: many of the drugs currently prescribed by psychiatrists and other physicians...act on the brain-mind state control systems of the brain stem."
"What this means is that the most potent legal drugs in use today share common mechanisms with the illegal ones. A corollary of this principle is that the differences between legal and illegal drugs are never as sharp as the authorities who make and enforce the laws would have us believe."
You are also missing a very fundamental and critical distinction between recreational drug use and pathological drug abuse.
People will easily accept that someone can have a glass of wine or a drink with friends and not be an alcoholic. But if it's a chemical the government has declared to be illegal, suddenly everyone who uses it has an automatic "substance abuse problem". It really doesn’t make any sense, or even hold water from a scientific standpoint.
-fachad
> ok, if I'm understanding this correctly, the poster is merely asking whether benadryl will interact with the illegal drug he/she used.
>
> Like, someone could post about having done too much coke and needs to take some benadryl and will it be safe.
>
> Or crack. Or heroin.
>
> I don't think the post is even appropriate for this board. IMHO, that is. Moreover, I tend to agree with lost boy and others about the person's approach to life. This board is full of people who are trying to get back on track, and someone bent on derailing just doesn't seem to warrant our "help" so s/he can continue illegal drug use.
>
> Surely there must be an Ecstasy site somewhere.
>
> Shar
Posted by Dinah on September 4, 2002, at 4:06:34
In reply to Ecstasy board?, posted by shar on September 3, 2002, at 22:44:24
>This board is full of people who are trying to get back on track, and someone bent on derailing just doesn't seem to warrant our "help" so s/he can continue illegal drug use.
>
> Surely there must be an Ecstasy site somewhere.
>
> SharI am sorry Shar, but please don't say anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, or jump to conclusions about others or their experiences.
It's been my interpretation that Dr. Bob wants everyone to feel comfortable posting here as long as they abide by the guidelines. And that would be my wish as well. Moreover, I think it would fall outside of the civility guidelines to state that a poster isn't worthy of help.
I understand that you may have strong feelings on this subject, but I ask that you be careful in expressing them so that no poster feels uncomfortable in asking questions here.
Please? I appreciate your cooperation while Dr. Bob is away.
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on September 4, 2002, at 4:11:33
In reply to Re: Ecstasy board? » shar, posted by Jerrympls on September 3, 2002, at 23:03:05
> Dr. Bob has other boards for posting personal judgements and if you don't like that this person even asked for out "help" then go on to the next message and put energy into helping someone with depression (or another mood disorder).
>
> Geesh.Just wanted to make it clear that Dr. Bob doesn't have *any* boards for posting personal judgements about other posters. That would clearly fall outside of the civility guidelines.
Any followups to this post or administrative matters should be posted to the Administrative Board. Thank you.
Dinah
Posted by shar on September 4, 2002, at 12:02:51
In reply to Re: Please be civil » shar, posted by Dinah on September 4, 2002, at 4:06:34
Moreover, I think it would fall outside of the civility guidelines to state that a poster isn't worthy of help.
>
OK, this is a semantics issue, because I never said anything about this individual's worth as a human being, nor do I believe that an individual is "unworthy" because of drug use. I did say that type of POST (one to help further illegal drug use) didn't seem to warrant our help.
> so that no poster feels uncomfortable in asking questions here.
>
This is, imho, a VERY precarious position. I suppose ANY question can be asked, that's true, no matter how offensive or sadistic or criminal or etc., but I truly wonder if there is a goal to make sure every poster is comfortable about asking every question. We do already have questions/posts that are deleted outright, which would surely make a poster uncomfortable.Shar
> >
> Dinah
Posted by shar on September 4, 2002, at 12:04:52
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Dinah, posted by shar on September 4, 2002, at 12:02:51
Posted by wcfrench on September 4, 2002, at 12:51:36
In reply to Re: Please be civil » Dinah, posted by shar on September 4, 2002, at 12:02:51
I think we would all agree that illegal drugs usually, in some way, react with the treatment process and even sometimes the legal drugs that we do take. Just like two legal drugs can interact... you wouldn't go taking an MAOI with an SSRI. You wouldn't take anything else in addition to what your doctor prescribes because it could possibly interact. For example, if you take X, it might make you depressed the next day, just like drinking too much alcohol. Sure there are some that say X kills, there are some that claim there is no harm, but don't you think, while we are figuring this all out, that you should be staying on the safe side, especially if you already have a mental illness and are taking medication? Don't you think that, until we figure out the long-term effects and how it can affect depression, that you should hold off?
I think the reason people get upset at these posts is because taking illegal drugs or alcohol while being treated for mental illness can cause you to digress, or continue to be unsuccessful in your treatment. It is, for various reasons, the most UNRECOMMENDED thing you can do while being treated. It is, until conclusive evidence is given, counter-productive to wanting to be successful in the long-term. While so many others on this board are taking exactly what is prescribed, sleeping regularly, and not drinking or taking illegal drugs and are STILL working toward success or have not achieved it, others are doing what they feel and taking recreational drugs to feel better and have a good time regardless of the possible negative effects it could have on treatment.
So you can understand why many of the users on this board are not willing to support people who use illegal drugs. It is because maybe they want to drink heavily, or take X, or smoke pot, because they know it can make you feel great, but they chose not to because they want to be helped in the long run. They are doing the hard thing and listening to their doctor before they ask for others' help. So if you post a question regarding recreational drug use, and if you're not going to help yourself by doing the tough thing and listening to your doctor, then you should at least expect a little gruff from those who do. It's nothing personal.
Posted by Dinah on September 4, 2002, at 13:21:58
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by wcfrench on September 4, 2002, at 12:51:36
If you want to answer the poster's original question, it's fine to do that here. But if you want to discuss administrative actions or policy please redirect to the admin board (see the links at the top of the page. I believe Shar has already started a thread there.
Thanks,
Dinah
Posted by alberto on September 4, 2002, at 22:35:48
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by wcfrench on September 4, 2002, at 12:51:36
I think it's very interesting how the question really elicited an emotional response from people. The person poster below assumes that I have a mental illness that is being treated by a doctor (I posted the original question). True, my question was completely about trying to maintain some level of safety while using ecstasy as a recreational drug. I got some very good responses that were void of judgement as well as some that obviously struck others on a very personal level, perhaph because of their own mental health or recovery issues. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any such information from my local city public health resource (San Francisco), in spite of the fact that this city and county adopted a Harm Reduction policy toward substance use. Consider that providing people with accurate medical information vs. emotional reactions might actually convince somebody to rethink their own recreational drug use. There are many factors that contribute to one's dependence/abuse of substances. As I read through the responses, I tried hard to be objective to what I read, yet still found many posts that contained even choice of words that had so much negative connotations associated with them. I found it unneccessary to even use the word "illegal" in the reponse. This is not a debate about legalizing anything or even politics, simply the request for medical FACTS. Ok, no sense beating a dead horse. I say we bury the subject. good luck to all.
> I think we would all agree that illegal drugs usually, in some way, react with the treatment process and even sometimes the legal drugs that we do take. Just like two legal drugs can interact... you wouldn't go taking an MAOI with an SSRI. You wouldn't take anything else in addition to what your doctor prescribes because it could possibly interact. For example, if you take X, it might make you depressed the next day, just like drinking too much alcohol. Sure there are some that say X kills, there are some that claim there is no harm, but don't you think, while we are figuring this all out, that you should be staying on the safe side, especially if you already have a mental illness and are taking medication? Don't you think that, until we figure out the long-term effects and how it can affect depression, that you should hold off?
>
> I think the reason people get upset at these posts is because taking illegal drugs or alcohol while being treated for mental illness can cause you to digress, or continue to be unsuccessful in your treatment. It is, for various reasons, the most UNRECOMMENDED thing you can do while being treated. It is, until conclusive evidence is given, counter-productive to wanting to be successful in the long-term. While so many others on this board are taking exactly what is prescribed, sleeping regularly, and not drinking or taking illegal drugs and are STILL working toward success or have not achieved it, others are doing what they feel and taking recreational drugs to feel better and have a good time regardless of the possible negative effects it could have on treatment.
>
> So you can understand why many of the users on this board are not willing to support people who use illegal drugs. It is because maybe they want to drink heavily, or take X, or smoke pot, because they know it can make you feel great, but they chose not to because they want to be helped in the long run. They are doing the hard thing and listening to their doctor before they ask for others' help. So if you post a question regarding recreational drug use, and if you're not going to help yourself by doing the tough thing and listening to your doctor, then you should at least expect a little gruff from those who do. It's nothing personal.
Posted by shar on September 4, 2002, at 23:53:53
In reply to Re: X board? Post Was Appropriate, IMHO (A Rant) » shar, posted by fachad on September 4, 2002, at 1:08:18
In response to your post directed to me,
> The differences between legal and illegal drugs are not as great as some people imagine.
No disagreement here. Legality is a matter of law, not medicine. In fact, even the law isn't static about that, legality can change very quickly. [There is the problem of who's making the illegal stuff, and that can cause medical problems (like what they use to cut coke or heroin or who's cookin up the latest batch of meth), imo.]
>
> You are also missing a very fundamental and critical distinction between recreational drug use and pathological drug abuse.Please don't say things that could make me feel put down. We can't really say I've missed the point on something until I've posted about it. And my post was not about recreational drug use versus pathological drug abuse.
>
> People
>will easily accept that someone can have a glass of wine or a drink with friends and not be an alcoholic. But if it's a chemical the government has declared to be illegal, suddenly everyone who uses it has an automatic "substance abuse problem". It really doesn’t make any sense, or even hold water from a scientific standpoint.
>
>yes, I agree, some people do appear to buy into that. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not aiming that particular criticism directly at me, even tho the post is directed to me.
Shar
-fachad
>
>
> > ok, if I'm understanding this correctly, the poster is merely asking whether benadryl will interact with the illegal drug he/she used.
> >
> > Like, someone could post about having done too much coke and needs to take some benadryl and will it be safe.
> >
> > Or crack. Or heroin.
> >
> > I don't think the post is even appropriate for this board. IMHO, that is. Moreover, I tend to agree with lost boy and others about the person's approach to life. This board is full of people who are trying to get back on track, and someone bent on derailing just doesn't seem to warrant our "help" so s/he can continue illegal drug use.
> >
> > Surely there must be an Ecstasy site somewhere.
> >
> > Shar
>
>
Posted by oracle on September 5, 2002, at 0:46:41
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by alberto on September 4, 2002, at 22:35:48
Unfortunately, I was unable to find any such information from my local city public health resource (San Francisco), in spite of the fact that this city and county adopted a Harm Reduction policy toward substance use.
Hmmmm......
Look harder, please ! There are resources everywhere in SF. Dr. Shungrin lives near by and
the Height Aubury Free Clinic (if it still exists) has done tons of studies. All of this without the judgement you received here.
Posted by alberto on September 5, 2002, at 2:14:36
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by oracle on September 5, 2002, at 0:46:41
I actually did look up the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic's site, but unfortunately, they did not address my specific question, which was the interaction between Ecstasy use and benadryl. There is a lot about the interaction between ecstasy and HIV meds, however. Dr's Bob's site was one of the few sites where I could post this very specific question. There are tons of sites and articles about drug use in general. Of particular interest would be a site that provides information about self-care and harm reduction to individual's who engage in recreational drug use. I'm sure there's something, just haven't found it yet.
Posted by trialerror on September 5, 2002, at 4:03:02
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by alberto on September 5, 2002, at 2:14:36
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.drugs.ecstasy
or on alt.drugs.hard:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.drugs.hard
or on alt.drugs.psychedelics:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.drugs.psychedelics
-trial&error
Posted by ~~tabitha~~ on September 5, 2002, at 5:18:24
In reply to Re: Ecstasy and the use of Benadryl the next morning » alberto, posted by BarbaraCat on September 3, 2002, at 2:28:14
> I've done XTC oh, probably 10 times and experienced some of the most sublime blissful Universal states of compassion before or since. It may well have wrought damage to my neuro terminals, however, I can't imagine going my life through without having had that glimpse of something so transcendent.
BarbaraCat,
I have not done x but I feel the same way about experiences with hallucinogens from my younger days. Will probably never do them again, but wouldn't trade it for anything. I even think that having such experiences helped me accept my psych diagnosis by giving me an appreciation for how dramatically chemicals can affect my brain.I think there's a real division in perspective between folks who've experienced powerful psychotropics or "mental illness" states and those who haven't. The ones who haven't can still have the illusion of being in control of their minds. The rest of us, for better or worse, have had to give up that illusion.
Tabitha
Posted by NikkiT2 on September 5, 2002, at 7:37:42
In reply to Re: transcendant chemical states » BarbaraCat, posted by ~~tabitha~~ on September 5, 2002, at 5:18:24
OK, been avoiding this debate... but hey ho!!!
When I have done e and can't sleep cos of the speed content of the pills, I take otc anti hystamine sleeping aids.. they work sometimes, sometimes they don't!!! I find if I get pure (ish!!) mdma (in powder form) I can sleep fine afterwards... but speed will keep me awake for days.
Try and get the best pills you can and then maybe the problem will be ok.. and don't binge on them, just take neough to keep you going.
hop ethis helps
nikki
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 5, 2002, at 12:22:01
In reply to Re: transcendant chemical states » BarbaraCat, posted by ~~tabitha~~ on September 5, 2002, at 5:18:24
Well said, Tabitha. There is a *something* that happens to a person's life viewpoint that is forever altered by hallucinogens - that is, if they're ready for and open to it. I've known street folkds who did anything from acid to shrooms to xtc loads of times and were not affected all that much - probably due to the alcohol blunting. They also didn't like hallucinogens all that much either and were rather scared by the 'deepness' of the trip. Like it or not, you eventually come face to face with yourself and all your 'secrets'. That's why my group of friends allways refered to ecstacy as 'honesty'. It can be a very bumpy ride where you just can't hide from yourself anymore. That's why it was used by the psych community with great hopes and success in breaking through
'stuck' cases.Back in my serious tripping days, it seemed like the world was divided into the camp that was *experienced* and those that weren't. I still feel that way. Like you, I probably won't ever do those things again because I've since learned how fragile my particular mental chemistry is. But never have done them? I can't imagine. I've always been an explorer and always will be, and my sojourns with the magic end of the drug spectrum have molded that part of me even stronger. It was through acid that I rediscovered the sweet blessed loving compassion of Christ, so very unlike the fellow the nuns and priests and other ministers pushed on all of us. Not all trips were good and some presaged the worst of my depressions, mania and panic disorder, but the best of it gave me an expansive view into the wonders and glories of my mind and the universe. And I must say I was of that bent anyway and more than ready for the experience. Meditation has become my substitute and even though it's not as flashy, it's sweet and comforting, and much to my liking at this point in my life and psyche. I can do without the wild rides at least this year. - Barbara
>
> BarbaraCat,
> I have not done x but I feel the same way about experiences with hallucinogens from my younger days. Will probably never do them again, but wouldn't trade it for anything. I even think that having such experiences helped me accept my psych diagnosis by giving me an appreciation for how dramatically chemicals can affect my brain.
>
> I think there's a real division in perspective between folks who've experienced powerful psychotropics or "mental illness" states and those who haven't. The ones who haven't can still have the illusion of being in control of their minds. The rest of us, for better or worse, have had to give up that illusion.
>
> Tabitha
>
>
Posted by oracle on September 5, 2002, at 13:10:23
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by alberto on September 5, 2002, at 2:14:36
Posted by wcfrench on September 5, 2002, at 14:29:49
In reply to Re: resources, posted by oracle on September 5, 2002, at 13:10:23
well said...
good luck and please be careful!
Posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 15:57:56
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by alberto on September 5, 2002, at 2:14:36
> I actually did look up the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic's site, but unfortunately, they did not address my specific question, which was the interaction between Ecstasy use and benadryl. There is a lot about the interaction between ecstasy and HIV meds, however. Dr's Bob's site was one of the few sites where I could post this very specific question. There are tons of sites and articles about drug use in general. Of particular interest would be a site that provides information about self-care and harm reduction to individual's who engage in recreational drug use. I'm sure there's something, just haven't found it yet.
Alberto, its a free country. While ecstasy is illegal, obviously you still sound as if you are bent on doing it. All I have to say to you is if you do X and mess yourself up, I hope you have private health insurance. I wouldnt support using taxpayer money to put you on medicaid or welfare to pay your bills. That would be morally wrong. You should become homeless before you are allowed to go on medicaid/welfare. There are good reasons why ecstasy is illegal Alberto.Your drug experiments will most likely sooner or later land you in some hospital somewhere, costing lots of money. Again, if it was up to me Id let you suffer rather than pay for it with my taxpayer money. I hope you have a rich daddy who could shell out the hard cash for drug rehab, cause I sure as hell dont want to help you.
There are many people on this board who are living very clean cut lives, who still cannot get out of mental illness despite all the work they put into it. Then someone like yourself comes along asking if its safe to take X. Thats just the most stupid question for a board like this. Why Dr. Bob tolerates questions and posters like yourself is way beyond me. Its not fair for someone like you to ask about ecstasy on here, when some on here are disabled and cant get out of severe depression and have never touched illegal drugs.
Please dont scramble your brain chemistry with X, cause if you do, my attitude to you is TOUGH SHIT, asshole.
Good luck.
Zyprexa Numb Tongue
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 16:17:45
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 15:57:56
The next step is a block, so here is a link to the civility guidelines.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Dinah (filling in for Dr. Bob)
Posted by NikkiT2 on September 6, 2002, at 17:21:29
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 15:57:56
have you never heard of the concept of self medication??? I was left alone by medical services and was too scared to ask for mor ehelp for many years and during that time I consumed many illegal drugs in an effort to feel ok about myself and be able to party like anyone else could straight.
Your attitude is harsh and of no help to people stuck in this rut.
Nikki
Posted by Behavioral Control on September 6, 2002, at 20:53:51
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by oracle on September 5, 2002, at 0:46:41
Why does Dr. bob tolerate posts about illegal, recreational drugs such as the hallucinogenic ecstasy on his message board?
BC
Posted by wcfrench on September 6, 2002, at 21:38:16
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by NikkiT2 on September 6, 2002, at 17:21:29
There are many people who can't "party" because they have problems, and they don't turn to illegal drugs to help them out with it.
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