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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 22 to 46 of 65. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on September 4, 2002, at 13:21:58
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by wcfrench on September 4, 2002, at 12:51:36
If you want to answer the poster's original question, it's fine to do that here. But if you want to discuss administrative actions or policy please redirect to the admin board (see the links at the top of the page. I believe Shar has already started a thread there.
Thanks,
Dinah
Posted by alberto on September 4, 2002, at 22:35:48
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by wcfrench on September 4, 2002, at 12:51:36
I think it's very interesting how the question really elicited an emotional response from people. The person poster below assumes that I have a mental illness that is being treated by a doctor (I posted the original question). True, my question was completely about trying to maintain some level of safety while using ecstasy as a recreational drug. I got some very good responses that were void of judgement as well as some that obviously struck others on a very personal level, perhaph because of their own mental health or recovery issues. Unfortunately, I was unable to find any such information from my local city public health resource (San Francisco), in spite of the fact that this city and county adopted a Harm Reduction policy toward substance use. Consider that providing people with accurate medical information vs. emotional reactions might actually convince somebody to rethink their own recreational drug use. There are many factors that contribute to one's dependence/abuse of substances. As I read through the responses, I tried hard to be objective to what I read, yet still found many posts that contained even choice of words that had so much negative connotations associated with them. I found it unneccessary to even use the word "illegal" in the reponse. This is not a debate about legalizing anything or even politics, simply the request for medical FACTS. Ok, no sense beating a dead horse. I say we bury the subject. good luck to all.
> I think we would all agree that illegal drugs usually, in some way, react with the treatment process and even sometimes the legal drugs that we do take. Just like two legal drugs can interact... you wouldn't go taking an MAOI with an SSRI. You wouldn't take anything else in addition to what your doctor prescribes because it could possibly interact. For example, if you take X, it might make you depressed the next day, just like drinking too much alcohol. Sure there are some that say X kills, there are some that claim there is no harm, but don't you think, while we are figuring this all out, that you should be staying on the safe side, especially if you already have a mental illness and are taking medication? Don't you think that, until we figure out the long-term effects and how it can affect depression, that you should hold off?
>
> I think the reason people get upset at these posts is because taking illegal drugs or alcohol while being treated for mental illness can cause you to digress, or continue to be unsuccessful in your treatment. It is, for various reasons, the most UNRECOMMENDED thing you can do while being treated. It is, until conclusive evidence is given, counter-productive to wanting to be successful in the long-term. While so many others on this board are taking exactly what is prescribed, sleeping regularly, and not drinking or taking illegal drugs and are STILL working toward success or have not achieved it, others are doing what they feel and taking recreational drugs to feel better and have a good time regardless of the possible negative effects it could have on treatment.
>
> So you can understand why many of the users on this board are not willing to support people who use illegal drugs. It is because maybe they want to drink heavily, or take X, or smoke pot, because they know it can make you feel great, but they chose not to because they want to be helped in the long run. They are doing the hard thing and listening to their doctor before they ask for others' help. So if you post a question regarding recreational drug use, and if you're not going to help yourself by doing the tough thing and listening to your doctor, then you should at least expect a little gruff from those who do. It's nothing personal.
Posted by shar on September 4, 2002, at 23:53:53
In reply to Re: X board? Post Was Appropriate, IMHO (A Rant) » shar, posted by fachad on September 4, 2002, at 1:08:18
In response to your post directed to me,
> The differences between legal and illegal drugs are not as great as some people imagine.
No disagreement here. Legality is a matter of law, not medicine. In fact, even the law isn't static about that, legality can change very quickly. [There is the problem of who's making the illegal stuff, and that can cause medical problems (like what they use to cut coke or heroin or who's cookin up the latest batch of meth), imo.]
>
> You are also missing a very fundamental and critical distinction between recreational drug use and pathological drug abuse.Please don't say things that could make me feel put down. We can't really say I've missed the point on something until I've posted about it. And my post was not about recreational drug use versus pathological drug abuse.
>
> People
>will easily accept that someone can have a glass of wine or a drink with friends and not be an alcoholic. But if it's a chemical the government has declared to be illegal, suddenly everyone who uses it has an automatic "substance abuse problem". It really doesn’t make any sense, or even hold water from a scientific standpoint.
>
>yes, I agree, some people do appear to buy into that. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not aiming that particular criticism directly at me, even tho the post is directed to me.
Shar
-fachad
>
>
> > ok, if I'm understanding this correctly, the poster is merely asking whether benadryl will interact with the illegal drug he/she used.
> >
> > Like, someone could post about having done too much coke and needs to take some benadryl and will it be safe.
> >
> > Or crack. Or heroin.
> >
> > I don't think the post is even appropriate for this board. IMHO, that is. Moreover, I tend to agree with lost boy and others about the person's approach to life. This board is full of people who are trying to get back on track, and someone bent on derailing just doesn't seem to warrant our "help" so s/he can continue illegal drug use.
> >
> > Surely there must be an Ecstasy site somewhere.
> >
> > Shar
>
>
Posted by oracle on September 5, 2002, at 0:46:41
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by alberto on September 4, 2002, at 22:35:48
Unfortunately, I was unable to find any such information from my local city public health resource (San Francisco), in spite of the fact that this city and county adopted a Harm Reduction policy toward substance use.
Hmmmm......
Look harder, please ! There are resources everywhere in SF. Dr. Shungrin lives near by and
the Height Aubury Free Clinic (if it still exists) has done tons of studies. All of this without the judgement you received here.
Posted by alberto on September 5, 2002, at 2:14:36
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by oracle on September 5, 2002, at 0:46:41
I actually did look up the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic's site, but unfortunately, they did not address my specific question, which was the interaction between Ecstasy use and benadryl. There is a lot about the interaction between ecstasy and HIV meds, however. Dr's Bob's site was one of the few sites where I could post this very specific question. There are tons of sites and articles about drug use in general. Of particular interest would be a site that provides information about self-care and harm reduction to individual's who engage in recreational drug use. I'm sure there's something, just haven't found it yet.
Posted by trialerror on September 5, 2002, at 4:03:02
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by alberto on September 5, 2002, at 2:14:36
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.drugs.ecstasy
or on alt.drugs.hard:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.drugs.hard
or on alt.drugs.psychedelics:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=alt.drugs.psychedelics
-trial&error
Posted by ~~tabitha~~ on September 5, 2002, at 5:18:24
In reply to Re: Ecstasy and the use of Benadryl the next morning » alberto, posted by BarbaraCat on September 3, 2002, at 2:28:14
> I've done XTC oh, probably 10 times and experienced some of the most sublime blissful Universal states of compassion before or since. It may well have wrought damage to my neuro terminals, however, I can't imagine going my life through without having had that glimpse of something so transcendent.
BarbaraCat,
I have not done x but I feel the same way about experiences with hallucinogens from my younger days. Will probably never do them again, but wouldn't trade it for anything. I even think that having such experiences helped me accept my psych diagnosis by giving me an appreciation for how dramatically chemicals can affect my brain.I think there's a real division in perspective between folks who've experienced powerful psychotropics or "mental illness" states and those who haven't. The ones who haven't can still have the illusion of being in control of their minds. The rest of us, for better or worse, have had to give up that illusion.
Tabitha
Posted by NikkiT2 on September 5, 2002, at 7:37:42
In reply to Re: transcendant chemical states » BarbaraCat, posted by ~~tabitha~~ on September 5, 2002, at 5:18:24
OK, been avoiding this debate... but hey ho!!!
When I have done e and can't sleep cos of the speed content of the pills, I take otc anti hystamine sleeping aids.. they work sometimes, sometimes they don't!!! I find if I get pure (ish!!) mdma (in powder form) I can sleep fine afterwards... but speed will keep me awake for days.
Try and get the best pills you can and then maybe the problem will be ok.. and don't binge on them, just take neough to keep you going.
hop ethis helps
nikki
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 5, 2002, at 12:22:01
In reply to Re: transcendant chemical states » BarbaraCat, posted by ~~tabitha~~ on September 5, 2002, at 5:18:24
Well said, Tabitha. There is a *something* that happens to a person's life viewpoint that is forever altered by hallucinogens - that is, if they're ready for and open to it. I've known street folkds who did anything from acid to shrooms to xtc loads of times and were not affected all that much - probably due to the alcohol blunting. They also didn't like hallucinogens all that much either and were rather scared by the 'deepness' of the trip. Like it or not, you eventually come face to face with yourself and all your 'secrets'. That's why my group of friends allways refered to ecstacy as 'honesty'. It can be a very bumpy ride where you just can't hide from yourself anymore. That's why it was used by the psych community with great hopes and success in breaking through
'stuck' cases.Back in my serious tripping days, it seemed like the world was divided into the camp that was *experienced* and those that weren't. I still feel that way. Like you, I probably won't ever do those things again because I've since learned how fragile my particular mental chemistry is. But never have done them? I can't imagine. I've always been an explorer and always will be, and my sojourns with the magic end of the drug spectrum have molded that part of me even stronger. It was through acid that I rediscovered the sweet blessed loving compassion of Christ, so very unlike the fellow the nuns and priests and other ministers pushed on all of us. Not all trips were good and some presaged the worst of my depressions, mania and panic disorder, but the best of it gave me an expansive view into the wonders and glories of my mind and the universe. And I must say I was of that bent anyway and more than ready for the experience. Meditation has become my substitute and even though it's not as flashy, it's sweet and comforting, and much to my liking at this point in my life and psyche. I can do without the wild rides at least this year. - Barbara
>
> BarbaraCat,
> I have not done x but I feel the same way about experiences with hallucinogens from my younger days. Will probably never do them again, but wouldn't trade it for anything. I even think that having such experiences helped me accept my psych diagnosis by giving me an appreciation for how dramatically chemicals can affect my brain.
>
> I think there's a real division in perspective between folks who've experienced powerful psychotropics or "mental illness" states and those who haven't. The ones who haven't can still have the illusion of being in control of their minds. The rest of us, for better or worse, have had to give up that illusion.
>
> Tabitha
>
>
Posted by oracle on September 5, 2002, at 13:10:23
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by alberto on September 5, 2002, at 2:14:36
Posted by wcfrench on September 5, 2002, at 14:29:49
In reply to Re: resources, posted by oracle on September 5, 2002, at 13:10:23
well said...
good luck and please be careful!
Posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 15:57:56
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by alberto on September 5, 2002, at 2:14:36
> I actually did look up the Haight Ashbury Free Clinic's site, but unfortunately, they did not address my specific question, which was the interaction between Ecstasy use and benadryl. There is a lot about the interaction between ecstasy and HIV meds, however. Dr's Bob's site was one of the few sites where I could post this very specific question. There are tons of sites and articles about drug use in general. Of particular interest would be a site that provides information about self-care and harm reduction to individual's who engage in recreational drug use. I'm sure there's something, just haven't found it yet.
Alberto, its a free country. While ecstasy is illegal, obviously you still sound as if you are bent on doing it. All I have to say to you is if you do X and mess yourself up, I hope you have private health insurance. I wouldnt support using taxpayer money to put you on medicaid or welfare to pay your bills. That would be morally wrong. You should become homeless before you are allowed to go on medicaid/welfare. There are good reasons why ecstasy is illegal Alberto.Your drug experiments will most likely sooner or later land you in some hospital somewhere, costing lots of money. Again, if it was up to me Id let you suffer rather than pay for it with my taxpayer money. I hope you have a rich daddy who could shell out the hard cash for drug rehab, cause I sure as hell dont want to help you.
There are many people on this board who are living very clean cut lives, who still cannot get out of mental illness despite all the work they put into it. Then someone like yourself comes along asking if its safe to take X. Thats just the most stupid question for a board like this. Why Dr. Bob tolerates questions and posters like yourself is way beyond me. Its not fair for someone like you to ask about ecstasy on here, when some on here are disabled and cant get out of severe depression and have never touched illegal drugs.
Please dont scramble your brain chemistry with X, cause if you do, my attitude to you is TOUGH SHIT, asshole.
Good luck.
Zyprexa Numb Tongue
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2002, at 16:17:45
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 15:57:56
The next step is a block, so here is a link to the civility guidelines.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Dinah (filling in for Dr. Bob)
Posted by NikkiT2 on September 6, 2002, at 17:21:29
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 15:57:56
have you never heard of the concept of self medication??? I was left alone by medical services and was too scared to ask for mor ehelp for many years and during that time I consumed many illegal drugs in an effort to feel ok about myself and be able to party like anyone else could straight.
Your attitude is harsh and of no help to people stuck in this rut.
Nikki
Posted by Behavioral Control on September 6, 2002, at 20:53:51
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by oracle on September 5, 2002, at 0:46:41
Why does Dr. bob tolerate posts about illegal, recreational drugs such as the hallucinogenic ecstasy on his message board?
BC
Posted by wcfrench on September 6, 2002, at 21:38:16
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by NikkiT2 on September 6, 2002, at 17:21:29
There are many people who can't "party" because they have problems, and they don't turn to illegal drugs to help them out with it.
Posted by joy on September 6, 2002, at 22:38:55
In reply to Re: why are ecstasy posts tolerated?, posted by Behavioral Control on September 6, 2002, at 20:53:51
If some people have taken ecstacy, that is their business, even though most people on this board do not take or condone it. Psycho-Babble is not in the business of being the politically corrrect police, and I hope it stays that way. This is just my humble opinion.
Joy
Posted by NikkiT2 on September 7, 2002, at 8:22:04
In reply to Re: Please be civil » NikkiT2, posted by wcfrench on September 6, 2002, at 21:38:16
Well, good for them, but you've never been in my shoes for one. I do n't do e any more really, but it helped me through some difficult years.
never judge others till you have walked a mile in their shoes is a pretty good way to think, and it seems you are unable of this.
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2002, at 9:04:38
In reply to Re: Please be civil » wcfrench, posted by NikkiT2 on September 7, 2002, at 8:22:04
> Your attitude is harsh and of no help to people stuck in this rut.
> never judge others till you have walked a mile in their shoes is a pretty good way to think, and it seems you are unable of this.
Hi Nikki, I understand that you have strong feelings about this subject, but Dr. Bob's guidelines require that you be sensitive to the feelings of others even if they hurt yours.
If you can phrase your responses in a way that addresses ideas and doesn't refer negatively to other posters, I would appreciate it.
Here is a link to Dr. Bob's FAQ on civility.
www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html
Thanks,
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2002, at 9:10:51
In reply to Re: Please be civil » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2002, at 9:04:38
This thread appears to be one that raises strong feelings in a lot of posters. Here are some quotes from Dr. Bob's civility guidelines that you might want to keep in mind while composing your posts.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Please respect the views of others even if you think they're wrong. Please be sensitive to their feelings even if they hurt yours. Different points of view are fine, and in fact encouraged...
You might want to use the link to read the rest of the guidelines.
Thanks for your cooperation while Dr. Bob is away.
Dinah
Posted by beardedlady on September 7, 2002, at 10:07:38
In reply to Re: Please be careful everyone, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2002, at 9:10:51
I saw this thread, and it sparked some bit of memory about something I must have read or heard on NPR.
Anyway, the piece was talking about how psychiatrists had been studying the use of ecstasy in severely depressed patients and how it was a very successful drug with lots of promise--I think for patients who were usually treatment resistant or bipolar (it's foggy, but it's a memory nonetheless!). A psychiatrist (a prominent one, as I recall) was saying she was very disappointed because they were unable to get grant money to continue the studies due to all the prejudice about the drug and since it had been made illegal. I think they had even found similar things with LSD.
Does any of this ring a bell with anyone? Now that I think further about it, I realize that I'd read the article aloud to my husband while we were driving somewhere, so it must've been in a magazine--like Health or Fitness.
beardy
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2002, at 12:43:04
In reply to ecstasy to treat depression, posted by beardedlady on September 7, 2002, at 10:07:38
Yes, in fact a psychologist I was seeing had used it in treatment as well as did a number of her colleagues. I did not personally undergo therapy using ecstacy with her because by the time I began seeing her it had just become illegal. This was in Berkeley, CA in the 70's and quite a few psychs and psychiatrists were using it with alot of excitement. It has tremendous potential for cutting through layers and layers of ego stuff and self denial and arriving at a new and healthy perspective. My husband, in fact, was amongst the test group of volunteers for 'upper limit' testing performed by a San Francisco psychiatrist in the early '70s. This means they were given very high doses on numerous occasions - many times higher than the standard street dose. My husband is one of the most stable and unflappable individuals you could ever meet and is living proof that not everyone gets their brain turned to mush.
It's interesting that 'new' research is bringing into question former allegations of ecstacy being this satanic dangerous drug that fries your brain. The fact is, no one should take it lightly at all. It strips everything down to bare bones honesty. You can't hide while on ecstacy. This seeing through your own bullshit can be either horribly threatening or incredibly liberating. Yes, it's a beautifully sensual experience, but a strong emotional one as well. The heart simply breaks open, and some folks cannot stand such intimate intensity. Taking it as a party drug will work only so many times, then intense self reflection is inevitable - that's just the nature of the ecstacy diva, that's just her way. This is a very potent tool, weapon, magic wand, whatever. It shouldn't be gobbled willy-nilly by everyone and using it as a therapeutic tool could be powerful - it's empathic reflective nature enables a speedier cutting to the chase of the issue. Branding it as a horribly disabling dangerous mind blowing drug? Bah! It's just a goverment ploy to keep us scared and ignorant - what better way to turn public consensus away from something so powerful than to appeal to our fear of 'brain damage'. Remember the chromosome damage scare of LSD? Pure horsepucky - but it sure worked to scare us silly from using it. Be wary of the fact that dulling stupid-type substances are legal and expansive ones are not. Again, take note of the 'new' current research suggesting that, hmmmmm, maybe we were a little hasty with our conclusions of brain damage and should rethink this substance. And those of you who have never taken MDMA, can you really discuss this with any knowledge? Aren't your arguments perhaps clouded by judgements based in misinformation and fear?
> I saw this thread, and it sparked some bit of memory about something I must have read or heard on NPR.
>
> Anyway, the piece was talking about how psychiatrists had been studying the use of ecstasy in severely depressed patients and how it was a very successful drug with lots of promise--I think for patients who were usually treatment resistant or bipolar (it's foggy, but it's a memory nonetheless!). A psychiatrist (a prominent one, as I recall) was saying she was very disappointed because they were unable to get grant money to continue the studies due to all the prejudice about the drug and since it had been made illegal. I think they had even found similar things with LSD.
>
> Does any of this ring a bell with anyone? Now that I think further about it, I realize that I'd read the article aloud to my husband while we were driving somewhere, so it must've been in a magazine--like Health or Fitness.
>
> beardy
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2002, at 12:46:39
In reply to Re: Please be careful everyone, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2002, at 9:10:51
Dinah,
Thanks for your sweetness and sensitivity. You're doing a fine job in a difficult arena. Dr. Bob should be proud of you.
Posted by beardedlady on September 7, 2002, at 13:42:29
In reply to Re: ecstasy to treat depression » beardedlady, posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2002, at 12:43:04
Thanks, Barb. My hubby and I used MDMA a few times; it was a wonderful experience. Of course, this was the eighties, and, because it wasn't such a cash business, people weren't selling so much of the dangerous garbage (like dog heartworm pills). I remember sitting down and rubbing my hands on my skin because the touching felt soooo good.
We used LSD fairly often--cutting a whole hit into four squares and using on a quarter or an eighth each. It is amazing how clearly you can see and think and hear. It's like every pore is open to the world. And you could take the tiniest amount and feel so wonderful, so I'm certain benefits could have been found. (I do know a woman whose father was part of those military tests that gave men extremely high doses of LSD without telling them. He was destroyed and remained in mental institutions his whole life due to schizoid behavior and delusional episodes. But bad experiments don't necessarily mean bad medicine.)
I have to admit that if I didn't have insomnia and take Serzone and have a child (if if if if if if if), I may (may may may may) still be using it recreationally.
Ahhh. But I digress. Thanks for letting me know that my memory doesn't stink. I do think that it is purely politics and capitalism that make certain drugs legal and others illegal. The illegal ones are no less therapeutic, and the legal ones are no less dangerous!
I think that's the scariest part of this debate. So many people are willing to put trust that legal means better for you. But alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana remain the best evidence that this is not true.
Again, Barb, thanks.
beardy
Posted by Linkadge on September 7, 2002, at 14:10:56
In reply to Re: ecstasy to treat depression » BarbaraCat, posted by beardedlady on September 7, 2002, at 13:42:29
Ecstacy is an amphetamine derivitive of
Mescaline - and Mescaline is the active
ingredient in Peyote - a cactus used in
Aztec religious ceremonies.Mescaline is a gentler more sentual experience
then LSD. LSD in depressed people can be
EXTREMELY desasterous. Especially if the person
has even a hint of psychosis.MDMA - Ecstacy is mood elavating because it
is an amphetamine, it can deminish the ego
and open the sences. It is definately less
psychadelic then LSD.Ecstacy is an effective short term antidepressant
because it stimulates the release of Seretonin
and Dopamine. The dopamine release is what makes
it very sentual. It definatly does not cause
apathy like SSRI's do. This is why I am very
interested in new Seritonin and Dopamine enhancing
drugs.Unfortunately becuase Ecstacy is an amphetamine
you do develop a tolerance to it's AD effect.
And because it is a stimulant it can cause
psychosis when used over the long term. Plus
ecstacy selectivly destroys seretonin neurons.
(Many causes of depression of major depression have been precipitated by long term MDMA use)
This is well known info.The government is not trying to eliminate
good potential AD's but EX is really a potent
neurotoxin.Good Luck and don't abuse the drug
Linkadge
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