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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Anyuser on December 11, 2002, at 13:18:50
Looks like it wouldn't hurt to pop a vitamin B along with your EPA capsules. Here's a link: http://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/news/8525697700573E1885256C8300662A5E?OpenDocument&id=389736e1a5d7a79d85256c270052d0a8&c=Depression&count=10
Posted by bluedog on December 11, 2002, at 21:17:29
In reply to Vitamin B12, posted by Anyuser on December 11, 2002, at 13:18:50
> Looks like it wouldn't hurt to pop a vitamin B along with your EPA capsules. Here's a link: http://www.docguide.com/news/content.nsf/news/8525697700573E1885256C8300662A5E?OpenDocument&id=389736e1a5d7a79d85256c270052d0a8&c=Depression&count=10
Thanks for the link Anyuser
Here's a link to a short piece on B12 that perhaps provides more clues as to the direct link between B12 deficiency and depression.
Apparently if you don't have sufficient B12 in your system, it actually gets used up in detoxifying your body... the B12 actually links to and neutralises toxic molecules in the body. If you don't have enough B12 it ALL gets used up attaching to the toxic molecules in your body and no B12 ever has a chance of reaching your brain where it is needed to fight depression>
Anyway, heres the link See http://www.cfsresearch.org/cfs/cheney/10nf.htm
regards
bluedog
Posted by Denise528 on December 13, 2002, at 14:41:53
In reply to Re: Vitamin B12 - more clues!!,, posted by bluedog on December 11, 2002, at 21:17:29
Hi,
Surely if you had a well balanced diet you would get all the B12 that you need.
Denise
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 13, 2002, at 16:21:57
In reply to Re: Vitamin B12 - more clues!!,, posted by Denise528 on December 13, 2002, at 14:41:53
> Hi,
>
> Surely if you had a well balanced diet you would get all the B12 that you need.
>
> DeniseRecent studies on American dietary intake show that a substantial number of people don't meet the RDI, which is only a few micrograms. As there is no evidence of any potential for overdose (there is no established Tolerable Daily Intake Level), and supplemental B12 is quite inexpensive, the potential for benefit from taking B12 totally outweighs the risk (because there is no known risk).
Some doctors are coming to believe that stress increases the need for B-12 by many times the typical requirement. It seems like a simple thing to add to the diet, just to be sure.
Lar
Posted by bluedog on December 13, 2002, at 22:59:24
In reply to Re: Vitamin B12 - more clues!!,, posted by Larry Hoover on December 13, 2002, at 16:21:57
> Recent studies on American dietary intake show that a substantial number of people don't meet the RDI, which is only a few micrograms. As there is no evidence of any potential for overdose (there is no established Tolerable Daily Intake Level), and supplemental B12 is quite inexpensive, the potential for benefit from taking B12 totally outweighs the risk (because there is no known risk).
>
> Some doctors are coming to believe that stress increases the need for B-12 by many times the typical requirement. It seems like a simple thing to add to the diet, just to be sure.
>Hi Larry
I'm glad to see a post from you. I was getting worried that you were no longer around and I would miss your input to this board if that had of been the case.
I guess you have just been "lurking" in the background waiting for posts that tweak your interest. It does seem that the focus of the med board has changed somewhat recently and the focus has gone more towards the psychiatric meds and Psych med combinations rather than the supplemental, dietary, herbal and nutritional focus which is my main area of interest and research at this stage of my illness. Is this the same for you???
I guess the focus of the med board goes through phases!!
Warm regards
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 14, 2002, at 7:19:38
In reply to Re: Vitamin B12 - more clues!!, » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on December 13, 2002, at 22:59:24
> > Recent studies on American dietary intake show that a substantial number of people don't meet the RDI, which is only a few micrograms. As there is no evidence of any potential for overdose (there is no established Tolerable Daily Intake Level), and supplemental B12 is quite inexpensive, the potential for benefit from taking B12 totally outweighs the risk (because there is no known risk).
> >
> > Some doctors are coming to believe that stress increases the need for B-12 by many times the typical requirement. It seems like a simple thing to add to the diet, just to be sure.
> >
>
> Hi Larry
>
> I'm glad to see a post from you. I was getting worried that you were no longer around and I would miss your input to this board if that had of been the case.
>
> I guess you have just been "lurking" in the background waiting for posts that tweak your interest. It does seem that the focus of the med board has changed somewhat recently and the focus has gone more towards the psychiatric meds and Psych med combinations rather than the supplemental, dietary, herbal and nutritional focus which is my main area of interest and research at this stage of my illness. Is this the same for you???Something more pragmatic. I was out of town of business. And yes, there weren't many threads that were similar to my own experience and knowledge.
> I guess the focus of the med board goes through phases!!
>
> Warm regards
> bluedogThanks. I appreciate it.
Lar
Posted by johnj on December 14, 2002, at 11:46:26
In reply to Re: Vitamin B12 - more clues!!,, posted by Larry Hoover on December 14, 2002, at 7:19:38
Hi Larry,
I always enjoy your posts since they are of interest to me and sometimes it is the hope that supplements could be the answer and help me get back to "normal". I used to love to work out, but the past year I get rebound dizziness and mood disturbance if I do. It appears to be related to my nortryptline. I also take 600 mg lithobid and 15 mg of tranzene.The question I have is related to DL-PH that you have discussed and I read that it should be taken with Vit C and B6, with a small glass of juice 1/2 hour prior to eating. Does this make sense to you? I read that a person doesn't want to overdose on B6 and my multiple has quite a bit.
I also saw that my AD (nortryptiline, which I am reducing with my doc's permission) is sensitive to too much Vit C. I saw this on a med interaction chart, but it is not on anything from my pharmacy. One thing I did was instead of reducing my AD I accidently increased it from 50 mg to 70 mg and on the second day I felt like hell. I went for 3 days at 50 mg and to 40 mg for the past two nights. Haven't slept as well and I have some muscle twitches. I usually get these when I don't get enough sleep, but I was wondering if this could also be related to a lack of something(vitamin)?
I still haven't tried taurine or carnitine for panic, but it is tough to know what to add when I am lowering my AD dose. My doc wants me at 30 mg of nortryptiline then add 5 mg of lexapro. I tried 2.5 mg of lexapro for two days and was groggy but had a weird anxious feeling. It is really hard to know what to do sometimes. Thanks for your time
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 16, 2002, at 9:11:34
In reply to Supplements » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on December 14, 2002, at 11:46:26
> Hi Larry,
> I always enjoy your posts since they are of interest to me and sometimes it is the hope that supplements could be the answer and help me get back to "normal". I used to love to work out, but the past year I get rebound dizziness and mood disturbance if I do. It appears to be related to my nortryptline. I also take 600 mg lithobid and 15 mg of tranzene.The fact that this is an exercise-related experience suggests that it is a problem of hydration or blood sugar. Do you make sure that you replace all the fluid lost through perspiration, and maintain electrolytes (in other words, do you use a sports drink like Gatorade)? Do you make sure that you have something with a high glycemic index (a chocolate bar or granola bar, for example) just before you work out? I think that antidepressants mess with some people's energy metabolism far more than you're going to read in the literature. Look at the issues of weight gain that people talk about, just as an example.
> The question I have is related to DL-PH that you have discussed and I read that it should be taken with Vit C and B6, with a small glass of juice 1/2 hour prior to eating. Does this make sense to you? I read that a person doesn't want to overdose on B6 and my multiple has quite a bit.
In order to overdose on B-6, you have to take gram quantities for an extended period of time. Don't let it worry you. If your B-6 is in a multi, it's probably too little, not too much.
> I also saw that my AD (nortryptiline, which I am reducing with my doc's permission) is sensitive to too much Vit C. I saw this on a med interaction chart, but it is not on anything from my pharmacy. One thing I did was instead of reducing my AD I accidently increased it from 50 mg to 70 mg and on the second day I felt like hell. I went for 3 days at 50 mg and to 40 mg for the past two nights. Haven't slept as well and I have some muscle twitches. I usually get these when I don't get enough sleep, but I was wondering if this could also be related to a lack of something(vitamin)?
Muscle spasms can be caused by electrolyte disturbances, but if you're withdrawing from a med, that's what I'd be looking at.
> I still haven't tried taurine or carnitine for panic, but it is tough to know what to add when I am lowering my AD dose. My doc wants me at 30 mg of nortryptiline then add 5 mg of lexapro. I tried 2.5 mg of lexapro for two days and was groggy but had a weird anxious feeling. It is really hard to know what to do sometimes. Thanks for your time
> johnjJohn, I just urge you to have patience. During medication titration periods, whether you're going up or down in dose, you're bound to have weird experiences. Your body will adjust.
If you're mucking around with nutrients at the same time, you won't know whether your meds are causing problems, or your supplements. Try to maintain everything else as stable as you can while the med adjustment takes place. Afterwards, when you get past that period, then go ahead and test supplement changes. You'll only confuse things if you do them at the same time.
Lar
Posted by johnj on December 16, 2002, at 20:43:14
In reply to Re: Supplements, posted by Larry Hoover on December 16, 2002, at 9:11:34
Hi Larry,
Great response as always, thank you very much. Yes, I thought it might be an electorlyte problem and maybe something related to the lithium, but I make sure I am well hydrated and get enough salt. What followed my initial workout experience was a return to waking up in the middle of the night. So, I stopped running and things improved. I tried this off and on for a year and each time I would feel lousy.
I really want to get back back to marital arts for the breathing excercises that we do. Even a mild sweat will cause me to feel lousy the next day. I have stared slow, but after to no avail I feel worse after excercise. This is so disappointing since it helped pull me out of my freshman college depression/anxiety.
I am so med sensitive and felt so bad a week ago sunday, and that is when I discovered I had upped my dose by mistake. Previously I had upped my nortryptline dose on purpose and couldn't stand the dry mouth and constipation. However, this time I had an almost depressive episode. I lowered from 70 to 50 and got along ok. I went down to 40 mg for 3 days, but last night I went back up to 50 since my sleep was so bad. I am hopping tonight I sleep better. The theraputic window seems really tight for me. Not sure what to do about the lexapro. I had some weird anxiety problems when I tried it. I just hate to wait weeks to see if it "works" for me. I don't know if I could stand it that long if the anxiety became worse. All I know at a small dose I was Mr. Sleep head.
I will wait for all supplements until I get my meds figured out. I will only take my vitamins. I hope my restless weekend was withdrawl instead of depression returning. I tried a google search and didn't see much on nortryptiline withdrawl like a person sees with ssri's. That is one reason ssri's scare me. All I know is that I need some sleep. I am going to talk to someone and see if I can't find a therapist that works with a pdoc. My pdoc just wants to throw meds at me. I am also thinking of trying klonopin instead of my current tranzene since I have heard klonopin doesn't cause depression like some benzo's can. What a rollar coaster ride that isn't any fun!! Thanks again Larry, I like your insight. There has got to be a combo out there for me. I wish Cymbalta was out. It sounds pretty postive from what little info is out there.
Posted by sjb on December 18, 2002, at 8:59:40
In reply to Re: Supplements » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on December 16, 2002, at 20:43:14
johnj,
Boy, can I relate to where your coming from. Larry gave you excellent advice. I don't have much to add except say, "I hear you" from my non-medical perspective as an athlete who tried to maintain mileage while on Lithium. Running was an extreme stuggle for me on this drug, salt, whatever you want to call it.
I haven't met a PDoc yet who knows anything about medication and it's effect on endurance sports. I drove a long way to see a "Sports Psychiatrist" and he did not know what an ultramarathon is. Uh, I wouldn't expect a regular PDoc to know this, but someone who specializes in sports? Frankly, he didn't know a lot about marathoning either, training involved, the effect on your endocrine system weeks after a hard event, etc.
Good luck to you. If you find the answer, please post.
Posted by disney4 on January 17, 2003, at 11:33:48
In reply to Re: Vitamin B12 - more clues!!,, posted by Larry Hoover on December 13, 2002, at 16:21:57
Hi Lar,
It's me, Elsie again. You helped me with fish oil questions a while back. I am faithfully taking the fish oil, but it is not enough help for depression. I may have to resort to Sam-e again, and with your background and ability to understand research, I was hoping you would help me. I previously took it for a month, starting out at 200 mg and ending at 400 mg in the AM. I wasn't sure about AD action, but the main reason I stopped it was fatigue. I was taking the folic acid and B-12 along with it. I am at my wits end with traditional AD meds, and want to give it another go. Would it be a negative to take it at bed time? I also take Neurontin, and Konopin, but may taper off Klonopin when restarting the Sam-e, since it makes me so sleepy.
This is the end of the thread.
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