Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 5582

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Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » Katia

Posted by Barbara Cat on April 20, 2003, at 17:43:05

In reply to Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » Barbara Cat, posted by Katia on April 20, 2003, at 17:04:38

Hi Katia,
Neurontin should help if it works for you. Some people don't get any response and for some it works great. I gave my stash to my husband and he's getting good results for general anxiety relief. I was on it for a while hoping to ease fibromyalgia pain. It didn't work for that but it did smooth things out in general. I'm Bipolar II, didn't know it, and was desperately in need of any mood stabilizer at that point and it helped.

At first it gave me a lovely fuzzy warm calmness but that response didn't last long and before too long I didn't see the need to take yet another med. But it is an anticonvulsant and helps to stabilize the jaggy electric shock sideways swoopies thing. You're so right. Those who have not experienced this very odd sensation have no idea what we're talking about. Neurontin seems to work best at high doses so you'll have to titrate from 900mg/day up to about 2700mg/day and then back down when you're zoloft symptoms are under control. By the time it starts pooping out as it may for you, you'll be past the worst of the zoloft withdrawal.

Definitely increase magnesium/calcium/zinc, B complex and Vit C, along with a good multivitamin and tons of water. Also try milk thisle herb for getting your liver healthy again. Make sure you're digestion/elimination is working well (probably the most important and overlooked element in any health issue) and if not visit a health food store and ask for advice. Serotonin isn't just in the brain but is a big player in the digestive system. Cutting it off tends to throw the whole body out of whack. Keeping your body extra healthy is crucial because it's under great stress at this time and your immune system can get compromised. Isn't depression fun?

Something to consider is augmenting any antidepressant with some kind of mood stabilizer as a general practice. Maybe neurontin will do the trick for you with whatever else you try. It's such a crap shoot, isn't it, to get the right med combo. Good luck. - BarbaraCat

 

Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » Barbara Cat

Posted by Katia on April 21, 2003, at 18:03:52

In reply to Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » Katia, posted by Barbara Cat on April 20, 2003, at 17:43:05

Thanks Barbara,
Why is it that it's always a good thing to add mood stabilisers to ADs? I haven't been diagnosed with bipolar; only unipolar (it's enough). I'd be interested to know the reasoning behind that.
thanks for the nutri.advice. I have been taking milk thistle daily to help with the liver. I know it's important to look after myself, esp. now, but when I get off balance like this, I just spiral further by making bad decisions. (like drinking too much). anyway, another story altogether.
thanks again.
Katia

 

Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » Katia

Posted by Barbara Cat on April 22, 2003, at 2:32:40

In reply to Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » Barbara Cat, posted by Katia on April 21, 2003, at 18:03:52

Here's what I think the story is with mood stabilizers based on what I've read on this board and my own research and personal experience. Adding the right one helps with the tendency of ADs to poop out, acting as a synergistic augmentor. If you find the right combination you need less of each and the sum is greater than the parts. They work more with the electrical potential rather than the chemical (although some, like lithium, also increase serotonin) so you're hitting more of the entire neuron rather than just the axons/receptors. Depression and bipolar appear to cause neuronal damage and some stabilizers, i.e., lithium, appear to protect against this and benefit the brain by increasing it's cellular plasticity and by creating increased dendritic growth. There seems to be definite anti-aging effects and many life enhancement proponents take lithium for this reason alone. Of course, lithium has it's own bag of problems and it's not the only stabilizer out there, just the one with the most research for this brain protection effect.

I can relate to the drinking thing. A nice glass or three or four of chardonnay is guaranteed to make me feel immediately better but totally crappy the next day or two. Everytime I succumb to it I think it's totally worth it in the moment and everytime I wake up the next morning I know it's not worth it.

> Thanks Barbara,
> Why is it that it's always a good thing to add mood stabilisers to ADs? I haven't been diagnosed with bipolar; only unipolar (it's enough). I'd be interested to know the reasoning behind that.
> thanks for the nutri.advice. I have been taking milk thistle daily to help with the liver. I know it's important to look after myself, esp. now, but when I get off balance like this, I just spiral further by making bad decisions. (like drinking too much). anyway, another story altogether.
> thanks again.
> Katia

 

Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms

Posted by McPac on April 22, 2003, at 23:05:42

In reply to Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » Katia, posted by Barbara Cat on April 22, 2003, at 2:32:40

I just wonder how many people get the "anger" side effect from these SSRI's. I KNOW that Zoloft causes anger, agitation and irritability in me. I honestly believe that the biggest reason that I need lithium (I only take 1 lithium a day) is to keep Zoloft's side effects at bay! I want nothing more than to one day be OFF of these chemical trash drugs (Zoloft). It sure seems to me that the psych AD's of yesteryear (15-20 yrs. ago, which I took) had side effects like dry mouth, slight dizziness, etc. whereas todays (ssri's) have dramatically WORSE and far more dangerous side effects and yet mass marketing has brainwashed folks to believe otherwise. I just wonder how many people even on this board need a mood stabilizer BECAUSE OF their Zoloft, Prozac, etc.

 

Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » Barbara Cat

Posted by Katia on April 23, 2003, at 13:37:33

In reply to Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » Katia, posted by Barbara Cat on April 22, 2003, at 2:32:40

Wow, quite a wealth of info there. I've printed it out and will mention it to my next pdoc, whoever that will be.

Where are you? In Cal.?
just curious.
thanks so much for that.
Katia

 

Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » McPac

Posted by Katia on April 23, 2003, at 13:50:26

In reply to Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms, posted by McPac on April 22, 2003, at 23:05:42

> I just wonder how many people get the "anger" side effect from these SSRI's. I KNOW that Zoloft causes anger, agitation and irritability in me. I honestly believe that the biggest reason that I need lithium (I only take 1 lithium a day) is to keep Zoloft's side effects at bay! I want nothing more than to one day be OFF of these chemical trash drugs (Zoloft). It sure seems to me that the psych AD's of yesteryear (15-20 yrs. ago, which I took) had side effects like dry mouth, slight dizziness, etc. whereas todays (ssri's) have dramatically WORSE and far more dangerous side effects and yet mass marketing has brainwashed folks to believe otherwise. I just wonder how many people even on this board need a mood stabilizer BECAUSE OF their Zoloft, Prozac, etc.

Maybe an SSRI is not for you? What did you try 15-20 yrs ago? Did it not work? What has your pdoc said? Did s/he put you on a mood stab. and what was her/his reasoning?
katia

 

Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » Katia

Posted by osama on April 26, 2003, at 14:04:44

In reply to Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » Barbara Cat, posted by Katia on April 20, 2003, at 17:04:38

dear barbara,
thank you for your msg, you mentioned me finding another doctor, where i'm living it's very hard to find a good doctor, and i have given up on my privious one, he doesn't seem to help, you mentioned mood stabilizers and benzo, what i'm thinking of doing is continuing the zoloft cut back by 50 mgs a week till i stop it completely, and probably take a mood stabilizer, i badly need to stabilize my mood! but what are the mood stabilizers? i don't know any. just give me a brand name and i will go and get it, and what is a benzo? if it would help, i would run and get it right away. and would these two help with the dizziness, or vertigo i'm going through?
thank you barbara, i highly appreciate this, you seem to know much more than i do, but i badly need to go off zoloft.
thanks,

ana

 

Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » osama

Posted by Barbara Cat on April 26, 2003, at 14:28:54

In reply to Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » Katia, posted by osama on April 26, 2003, at 14:04:44

Dear Ana,
It's unfortunate that you can't find a good doctor. Most of the following meds suggestions all need prescriptions. As far as decreasing Zoloft, 50 mg per week may be a bit too much. On the other hand, if you don't have any stressful events coming up it may be a good thing to just get it over with. The question is whether the vertigo is caused by Zoloft withdrawal or if there's something else going on. You could always try Dramamine and see if that helps - it would at least give you more info to work with.

Mood stabilizers are prescription meds that typically are considered anti-epileptic drugs because they have the ability to smooth out how fast or in sync the neurons fire. They've been found to help with other mood disorders, especially bipolar, but also when an SSRI is not working. The common ones are lithium, depakote, neurontin, tegretol. I've been greatly helped by lithium because SSRI's would work for awhile and then quit and I'd have to increase to dangerous doses. I also believe my symptoms are bipolar II mainly with depression.

Benzos are prescription tranquilizers like valium, ativan (lorezapam), Klonopin and others. They chill you out considerably when going through the withdrawal crazies and also have mood stabilizer properties. If you have an ongoing anxiety condition then benzos are used for an extended time. The problem is that one builds up a tolerance to them after a while.

I don't recall what you're condition is and why you're going off Zoloft? Like Mike said, maybe you're not on the right AD. Of course, with no doctor around it's difficult to get a good diagnosis and help.

Have you tried fish oil or SAM-e? They're over the counter and can help with depression. You have to get very good quality fish oil because of pollutants and randicity. A good one is Carson's Cod Liver Oil, lemon flavored. You'll need about 2 tablespoons a day. If nothing else you'll notice your skin and hair getting gorgeous! A good website that has great prices on vitamins,etc., is

www.iherb.com

Ana, if you have a mood disorder then you'll need the correct meds until you're over the hump. I'm very much into nutrition, yoga, meditation, etc., and have tried countless times to 'do it on my own' and had to throw in the towel every time. If you live out in the boonies and have no recourse to a good pdoc then perhaps you can do some research on the web, get very informed, and then tell the nearest doctor what you need. Or else, you could find an online doctor who could do telephone consults. I don't have anyone to recommend but it's worth a try. Would you mind telling me again what your symptoms are? Perhaps put out a new post on the Babble board asking for suggestions. I sure know I've been helped immensely from friends on this board. - BarbaraCat


> thank you for your msg, you mentioned me finding another doctor, where i'm living it's very hard to find a good doctor, and i have given up on my privious one, he doesn't seem to help, you mentioned mood stabilizers and benzo, what i'm thinking of doing is continuing the zoloft cut back by 50 mgs a week till i stop it completely, and probably take a mood stabilizer, i badly need to stabilize my mood! but what are the mood stabilizers? i don't know any. just give me a brand name and i will go and get it, and what is a benzo? if it would help, i would run and get it right away. and would these two help with the dizziness, or vertigo i'm going through?
> thank you barbara, i highly appreciate this, you seem to know much more than i do, but i badly need to go off zoloft.
> thanks,
>
> ana

 

Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » Barbara Cat

Posted by Katia on April 26, 2003, at 17:04:06

In reply to Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » osama, posted by Barbara Cat on April 26, 2003, at 14:28:54

Hi Barbara,
thanks again for your info. I too am very much into nutrition, meditation, and yoga. and it seemed that was also a subconscious defense on my part for trying to heal this depression for so many years to no avail; like you throwing in the towel. which is why I am adament about finding a good doct.

On another note, if this is a place for resources, here's one. The American Drug Club in San Leandro California. They get medication from Canada at like a 1/4 the price. however, there is no "FDA" approval in this, but what the hell. life is too expensive here in USA dealing with this issue. So a word of caution there. It's a bit tricky b/c I find this board as a more valuable resource than any doctor I've encountered, but then again most of us aren't doctors and need also to proceed with caution when heading the advice of others.

I mentioned Neurontin to my therapist (who works in conjunction with a pdoc, not mine however) and she mentioned that Neurontin is no longer really being used as a mood stabliser b/c it was ineffective. that's a med I actually have here at home and wanted to take it to help ease the w/drawals of Zoloft. But now I've chosen not to. I just need a good pdoc! In my area as well, there are more people in need of a pdoc than there are pdocs. Bay area of Cal. any other feed-back along these lines?
katia

 

BarbCat, Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms

Posted by McPac on April 27, 2003, at 1:24:11

In reply to Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » osama, posted by Barbara Cat on April 26, 2003, at 14:28:54

Hi Barb!
I thought I recalled on these boards a while back that some here were saying that someone could take Benadryl to ease the Zoloft withdrawal symptoms? I could be totally wrong and mistaken about that, does that ring a bell to you? I'm already taking my vitamins, minerals, etc., but do you know of any ideas to help the process? I bumped my Zoloft dosage back up to its usual dosage because I've thought of another plan....I think I'm going to raise my Remeron dose (currently a puny dose) and stay at a decent Remeron dosage for awhile and THEN begin lowering the Zoloft...hopefully the higher Remeron dosage could compensate for lowering the Zoloft. Do you think Remeron could be used (like some use Prozac) to help the Zoloft withdrawal? (I can't use Prozac myself, it makes me NUTS!) Did Zoloft ever cause anger/temper/irrit. problems for you? (I don't mean during withdrawal but during regular usage?) Thanks & Take Care!

 

katia, Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms

Posted by McPac on April 27, 2003, at 1:29:24

In reply to Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » McPac, posted by Katia on April 23, 2003, at 13:50:26

Hi Katia!

"Maybe an SSRI is not for you? What did you try 15-20 yrs ago? Did it not work? What has your pdoc said? Did s/he put you on a mood stab. and what was her/his reasoning?
katia"

Yes, perhaps they aren't for me......I was on stuff like Nardil, imipramine, desyrl long ago.....some worked better than others...I just recall the side effects being much, much easier to deal with, for me anyway.

 

Re: BarbCat, Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » McPac

Posted by Barbara Cat on April 27, 2003, at 17:05:44

In reply to BarbCat, Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms, posted by McPac on April 27, 2003, at 1:24:11

Hi Mike,
Yes, Zoloft made me homicidally enraged but only when I was withdrawing from it. I turned into a Harpy. It was like all the anger and evilness was damming up and biding it's time until being let loose. I literally smashed a hole in the wall (luckily instead of my husband) while in a rage. About the only thing that helped was time and working it out by ALOT of physical activity until I was dropping from exhaustion. While it worked, however, it was the best SSRI that my poor bipolar self shouldn't have been taking. In fact, the withdrawal had a mean manic quality to it like it was fueling bad bipolar energy.

I recall reading something about benedryl here. Your reasoning about Remeron seems to have merit. Benedryl is an antihistamine Remeron has antihistamine properties. Remeron was the easiest AD to wean myself from and so if it provides antidepressant action and antihistamine benefit it might soften the blows of Zoloft withdrawal. From there, Remeron would be a piece of cake to come off. But just a touch, like 7.5mg at night seems to have a high antihistamine dope factor. Now the question is, why does an antihistamine work this way? Something about 5-htp3 receptors but that's the extent of my musing. -BarbaraCat

 

Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » Katia

Posted by Barbara Cat on April 27, 2003, at 17:18:51

In reply to Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » Barbara Cat, posted by Katia on April 26, 2003, at 17:04:06

Katia,
Neurontin has received bad press because of a story that made headlines a few months ago about a bipolar kid who killed himself. Even though neurontin was never directly implicated, it scared many doctors. It isn't always effective, but when it works, it works very well. Since you have some on hand and you're having a difficult time withdrawing from Zoloft you might consider giving it a try. You could start slow with 300mg twice a day first week, three times a day second and titrate up to 2-3 tabs three times a day. If it works you'll know it within a few days. If it doesn't, you'll also know. Keep a journal or rate your mood and write it on a calendar since our memories aren't very objective.

Pardon me for being cynical, but is this doctor the same clueless doc you referred to earlier? If so, why would you not question anything he/she has to say?

 

Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » Barbara Cat

Posted by Katia on April 27, 2003, at 17:46:31

In reply to Re: zoloft withdrawal symptoms » Katia, posted by Barbara Cat on April 27, 2003, at 17:18:51

> Katia,
> Neurontin has received bad press because of a story that made headlines a few months ago about a bipolar kid who killed himself. Even though neurontin was never directly implicated, it scared many doctors. It isn't always effective, but when it works, it works very well. Since you have some on hand and you're having a difficult time withdrawing from Zoloft you might consider giving it a try. You could start slow with 300mg twice a day first week, three times a day second and titrate up to 2-3 tabs three times a day. If it works you'll know it within a few days. If it doesn't, you'll also know. Keep a journal or rate your mood and write it on a calendar since our memories aren't very objective.
>
> Pardon me for being cynical, but is this doctor the same clueless doc you referred to earlier? If so, why would you not question anything he/she has to say?

Hi,
no it wasn't my pdoc, but my therapist. She was just commenting on what she had heard and definitely prefaced it by saying that was not an expert in the field and it was more along the lines that she was wanting me to proceed with caution and question the advice from this board. She was only trying to take care of me - my best interest in mind. I do question things, believe me. it's just that I'm so exhausted with taking the wrong meds and then having to go through terrible w/drawals.
I also don't have enough of it (neurontin) to take up to the levels you recommend. I'm just waiting this out until I can find the right doc.

I can relate to the rage! If anything the rage has certainly allowed me to stand up for myself and voice some much needed things!
thanks.
katia

 

Re: Barbara Re: withdrawal symptoms coming off zoloft

Posted by focus on May 12, 2003, at 20:06:44

In reply to Re: Barbara Re: withdrawal symptoms coming off zoloft » BarbaraCat, posted by proud mary on January 14, 2003, at 21:43:14

My doctor took me completely off the Zoloft I was taking (100mg. a day) and started me immediately on Lexapro (10mg. a day. It has now been 7 long days since this switch and I can hardly get out of bed in the mornings, I am extremely agitated/angry with my kids and husband over minor things, and I feel like I'm zoning half the time. Your postings make me realize I'm not alone in these various symptoms; I just wonder who else went off zoloft cold turkey and how long did these bad side affects last. My family (and me!) don't want me to stay like this very much longer! Oh, and the reason I switched was to try and reduce the reduced libido side affect of the zoloft. Wellbutrin and Prozac have not worked for me. I would appreciate any feedback/thoughts/suggestions you might have. Thanks! Jan

 

Withdrawal symptoms coming off zoloft » focus

Posted by Barbara Cat on May 13, 2003, at 0:45:09

In reply to Re: Barbara Re: withdrawal symptoms coming off zoloft, posted by focus on May 12, 2003, at 20:06:44

It's hell to cold turkey-it off any antidepressant. It's small consolation, but coming off zoloft is a walk in the park compared with effexor, paxil. If I were your doc I'd want to help you through this misery (and your family's). The rage and flare ups and fits of weeping, etc., can be helped very much by a benzo such as clonazepam. It won't do much for your libido during this messy time, but sex is probably the last thing on your mind. You don't need to be on it forever but it would help get you through this raw wired period. About lexapro, I haven't tried it. If it doesn't work for you, you might consider the tricyclics. After being on almost all the newer antidepressants and none of them working for long, I'm now on nortriptyline and lithium and liking it very much. Good luck and keep us posted. - BCat

 

Re: Barbara Re: withdrawal symptoms coming off zoloft » focus

Posted by katia on May 13, 2003, at 1:47:32

In reply to Re: Barbara Re: withdrawal symptoms coming off zoloft, posted by focus on May 12, 2003, at 20:06:44

> My doctor took me completely off the Zoloft I was taking (100mg. a day) and started me immediately on Lexapro (10mg. a day. It has now been 7 long days since this switch and I can hardly get out of bed in the mornings, I am extremely agitated/angry with my kids and husband over minor things, and I feel like I'm zoning half the time. Your postings make me realize I'm not alone in these various symptoms; I just wonder who else went off zoloft cold turkey and how long did these bad side affects last. My family (and me!) don't want me to stay like this very much longer! Oh, and the reason I switched was to try and reduce the reduced libido side affect of the zoloft. Wellbutrin and Prozac have not worked for me. I would appreciate any feedback/thoughts/suggestions you might have. Thanks! Jan
Hi Jan,
Actually my experience is/was coming off of Zoloft was harder than Effexor. I just got off of Effexor in Jan.and went thru h***. Went onto Zoloft in the transition. was a zombie for three months then came off of it about 6 weeks ago and have a horrible time!! I'm still, yes still, experiencing those electrical zaps. I'm so tired of it. and I've got terrible mood/rage swings. I can empathise.
katia

 

Re: withdrawal symptoms coming off zoloft

Posted by cris on August 8, 2003, at 18:32:06

In reply to Re: withdrawal symptoms coming off zoloft, posted by Susanm on June 3, 2000, at 17:17:23

After being on Lexapro 6 weeks and feeling sleepy ALL the time, doc put me on Zoloft (mostly trying to deal with PMS anxiety, some mild dep.) After three months of Zoloft and headaches every other day, I took myself off cold turkey. Probably not too smart, but I knew doc would have me on a longterm weaning, and I just decided I wanted to be drug free. Its been 9 days off and the only side effects is the "pins and needles" in the head feeling, usually just when quickly turning my head, getting up or sitting down, etc.. but nothing where I feel it is going to cause me to fall or faint, etc.. My stomach has been fine. Libido returned almost immediately, but was not the reason for wanting to go off. I think I can deal with the head thing as long as it doesn't worsen or any other side effects appear. Good luck to all. I am not sure my reasons for getting on the meds were strong enough to begin with. I really feel like if you are borderline..wanting to deal with PMS or general emotional feelings, try other things first, whether more exercise, better diet, talk therapy... its worth it.

 

Re: a thought of my own

Posted by SF24 on September 8, 2003, at 16:08:48

In reply to Re: a thought of my own » Daveman, posted by Cam W. on October 16, 2001, at 0:35:03

The random firing or dyssynchronization of serotonin dependent synapses makes quite a bit of sense. I don't know if any of you have ever taken MDMA, but I would consider the "zaps" to be an unpleasant flip-side of the feel-good tingles that come along with the use of MDMA. What causes this? Extrememely heightened levels of seorotonin in the synaptic cleft. Wouldn't it make sense that discontinuation of an SSRI would have a similar effect on the amount of serotonin released per firing assuming that:
1) One action of SSRI's is to cause the brain to produce more serotonin because of it's lack of avaialability in the reuptake sites;
2) Discontinuing the use of SSRI's would therefore temporarily increase the level of serotonin released when serotonin neurons are stimulated (because the synapses are producing higher-than normal levls of serontonin and they are more rapidly restoring their serotonin levels by reuptake, thus making higher than usual levels of serotonin available for neuronal firing), therefore resulting in "serotonin spikes" which would therefore be responsible for "zaps"

It seems possible that overstimulation of the serotonin terminals on a nerve-by-nerve basis is a possible explanation, or perhaps stimualtion of other-than-intended nerve cells is the culprit. Another thought is that the zaps, at least the unpleasantness of them, are(is) being caused by excess stimulation of the re-uptake sites. MDMA increases levels of serotonin in the cleft, but it also blocks serotonin reuptake. Perhaps pleasant stimulation occurs when the receptors are overstimulated and unpleasant stimulation takes place when the reuptake sites get over stimulated (perhaps causing some type of backfiring?)

I'm not sure if any of that really makes sense; our brains are such incredibly complex systems that explaining how anything manages to happen can be quite a feat (as is evidenced by our lack of clear understanding of the physiological background of psychological disorders, even after decades of research). But it seems to make sense to me, so I figure it's an idea worth posting.

> Dave - I haven't seen any good explanation of the electric zaps, yet. My feeling is, is that most clinicians and researchers either don't believe that they really exist, or feel that they are unrelated to withdrawl. This is similar to the instances when I first heard complaints of delayed weight gain with Paxil. A few years ago, when I would broach the subject with clinicians, they would say that there was no connection. This was when the scientific community believed that just as many people lost weight with Paxil, as gained weight. Now we know (because it has been "proven" scientifically) that some people lose weight in the short term with Paxil, but a majority will gain that weight back (and then some) in the subsequent 3 or 4 months of therapy.
>
> Most psychiatrists have no idea what I am talking about when I mention "brain zaps". That is the problem with Psycho-Babble; we are just too damn current with what medications actually do. Clinically, we are way ahead of the research.
>
> My hypothesis of what is going on with the brain zaps is that during withdrawl, the lack of serotonin in general, is causing random, unsychronized firing of serotonergic neurons. I am not totally sure in which part of the brain or which serotonergic pathway this is occurring, but I would hazard a guess that it is in one of the pathways leading out of the raphe nuclei (possibly enroute to the frontal cortex). I really don't know what is going on, though. It could also be a temporal lobe thing, similar to the feeling people get before an epileptic seizure, or maybe like the prodromal symptoms of a migraine headache.
>
> Every time I think I am getting a grasp on the brain's circuitry, a question like this arises, and I realize that I don't understand the brain, as well as I think I do.
>
> I guess that we have to organize and make more noise within the research community, so that someone takes our observations seriously. Perhaps Dr. Bob could get one of the depression experts to give a presentation so that we could lob our observations at him/her.
>
> As confused as ever - Cam
>
>

 

Zaps - a thought of my own » SF24

Posted by BarbaraCat on September 8, 2003, at 23:49:06

In reply to Re: a thought of my own, posted by SF24 on September 8, 2003, at 16:08:48

Your ideas are very intriguing. I've often wondered about those delicious tingles from drugs that target different neurochemicals. The scalp/spine tingles from amphetamines, the whole body pulsing tingles from MDMA, the rapturous shivers of psychedelics, the rapid wiry rush from that first cup o' coffee, the lovely afterglow of sex that is so like the warm whole body pulse from MDMA, etc. What causes them? They all have the same 'pleasure/reward' dopamine similarity, but the targeted receptor sites are so varied. Or are they?

I've also wondered about the sadly neglected down-line electrical potential, the cAMP second messenger system that communicates with the neuronal nucleus and then sends it's electrical impulse down the axon to the terminal, which, from there, is chemically ferried across the synaptic cleft. Those zaps seem so electrical and this axonal communication/firing/ionic gates flux all depend upon electrical potential (calcium/sodium ion exchange).

There's so much speculation and research being put into the terminal and synaptic cleft theories, and not enough into the down-line second messenger system. Electric-feeling zaps = electricity in my mind. There must be a disruption in the electrical system because those zaps are so undeniably electrical in nature to those who have experienced them. I believe we're overlooking a huge part of the whole neuronal symphony by looking at the, what, only 3 major neuropeptides we've come to recognize as the alpha and omega of psychiatric medicine? But all those billions of potential research dollars are better spent on defending us against the terrorists, eh?

Or maybe it's a temporary homeostatic seeking neural re-routing to the temporal lobe strategy which could cause the vertigo/dizziness usually associated with inner ear (temporal lobe territory) problems?

OR how about this? As serotonin decreases, dopamine increases. Those tingles are all remarkably dopamine-like. 'Pleasure/reward' system = dopamine. Many of those 'tingle' substances spoken of above are dopamine releasers which usually incite craving for more of the tingly buzz. Only this dopamine surge, usually so pleasant, doesn't feel much like pleasure. So, anything thoughts? So many possibilities, so little time. Maybe in 100 years we'll have this thing wired. - BarbaraCat

 

I'll just call you DrSpockCat from now on » BarbaraCat

Posted by KimberlyDi on September 9, 2003, at 8:23:31

In reply to Zaps - a thought of my own » SF24, posted by BarbaraCat on September 8, 2003, at 23:49:06

<one eyebrow raised>

you guys and gals are amazing with all the research you've done.

good work.

KDi in Texas

 

Re: I'll just call you DrSpockCat from now on » KimberlyDi

Posted by BarbaraCat on September 10, 2003, at 2:12:10

In reply to I'll just call you DrSpockCat from now on » BarbaraCat, posted by KimberlyDi on September 9, 2003, at 8:23:31

Would that be the baby Dr. Spock or the 'live long and prosper' Mr. Spock? Thanks for the atta girl. All this exploration is fun but also necessary. It's becoming clear that we mood disordered folks have to become our own researchers and doctors and we have to stick together to help each other find the answers. Our collective personal commitments to find the answers so we can GET WELL is far more powerful and effective than research funded by the pharmaceutical industry. Maybe we'll have one of those Hundreth Monkey phenomenons right here on this board. Know what I mean?


> <one eyebrow raised>
>
> you guys and gals are amazing with all the research you've done.
>
> good work.
>
> KDi in Texas

 

Live Long and Prosper, of course » BarbaraCat

Posted by KimberlyDi on September 10, 2003, at 7:33:35

In reply to Re: I'll just call you DrSpockCat from now on » KimberlyDi, posted by BarbaraCat on September 10, 2003, at 2:12:10

100 Monkeys could pound out Shakespeare eventually. My ADD/ADHD brain wonders "Who taught the monkeys to type?"

Before, when going to a pdoc, I went quietly and didn't participate. Now, I go fully informed, to the best of my knowledge, and suggest medication based upon my research and symptoms.

I think the pdoc prefers my involvement.

> Would that be the baby Dr. Spock or the 'live long and prosper' Mr. Spock? Thanks for the atta girl. All this exploration is fun but also necessary. It's becoming clear that we mood disordered folks have to become our own researchers and doctors and we have to stick together to help each other find the answers. Our collective personal commitments to find the answers so we can GET WELL is far more powerful and effective than research funded by the pharmaceutical industry. Maybe we'll have one of those Hundreth Monkey phenomenons right here on this board. Know what I mean?
>
>
> > <one eyebrow raised>
> >
> > you guys and gals are amazing with all the research you've done.
> >
> > good work.
> >
> > KDi in Texas
>
>

 

How Monkeys came to type » KimberlyDi

Posted by BarbaraCat on September 12, 2003, at 15:14:58

In reply to Live Long and Prosper, of course » BarbaraCat, posted by KimberlyDi on September 10, 2003, at 7:33:35

> 100 Monkeys could pound out Shakespeare eventually. My ADD/ADHD brain wonders "Who taught the monkeys to type?"
>
**The latest theory is that one day a FedEx box washed ashore an island beach containing one 'Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing' program originally meant for overnight delivery from Amazon.com. Tom Hanks was out cold on the beach but another box washed up on shore as well - this one containing a manual typewriter.

Tom tried to teach the monkeys how to type since there wasn't much else to do, but it was difficult to convey a concept of such complexity to them and neither he nor the monkeys knew sign language.

Mavis Beacon did not help either, unfortunately, because the typewriter was manual and did not have a CD drive or even a monitor. So Tom eventually gave up because his hunger pangs were becoming insistant and learning how to spear crustaceons took precedence (little known fact - Tom did go on to type the first draft for Castaway on that typewriter using coco-palm papyrus!).

Being resourceful monkeys who DID NOT GIVE UP and were committed to doing their part for evolution, they looked at the pictures in the Mavis Beacon Users Manual and this was enough for those of superior simian minds to make the eye-hand coordination connection.

At night, when Tom was asleep in the cave, they took to teaching each other to peck and then finally got up to speeds of 45 wpm on that typewriter. Just try that on your old Olivetti at home! It wasn't a coincidence that the Maker saw fit to give them brute strength and opposable thumbs.

Eventually Tom rigged together his makeshift raft and was ready to leave the island with his hapless friend, 'Wilson'. He made the difficult decision to leave the typewriter behind. It was rather cumbersome, although it would have passed the time while on that long ocean voyage.

You can imagine the monkeys' delight at now having the typewriter to themselves as they set about recreating one of the Bard's classics before moving on to their own opus. However, it must be said that the learning curve was steep. Discouraged with the verrrrrryyyyy slow progress of 'King Lear', one monkey while on typing shift thought it would be an amusing diversion to see if sweet potatoes, their staple foodstuff, could float - much like the raft that was observed carrying away Tom Hanks and Wilson.

Thinking to impress the other monkeys with the spiffy look of the first of the 'Tater Flotilla, as he called it, he washed and spit-shined it. Needless to say, the other 99 monkeys were indeed impressed to see this 'Tater Flotilla coming 'round the spit and sought to outdo each other with the creativity and cleanliness of their nautical spuds.

Monkeys communicate through 'hive' mentality, known in higher primates as ESP so it's not surprising that their enterprise was conveyed to other islands. The rest is history. Unfortunately, Shakespeare was abandoned - for now.

Psychologists are still speculating on the motives behind Tom's inexplicable choice of befriending a basketball rather than the company of the infinitely more interesting monkeys. Perhaps he thought they were a delusion, made up by his fevered brain. Perhaps they were.

So, you're ADD/ADHD,eh? How has that been for you and has anything helped? I tried that route recently thinking my manic disorganization was ADD, but Ritalin made me feel AWFUL, even though I enjoyed meth. - Ciao, BarbaraCat

 

Redirect: How Monkeys came to type

Posted by Dr. Bob on September 13, 2003, at 15:56:52

In reply to How Monkeys came to type » KimberlyDi, posted by BarbaraCat on September 12, 2003, at 15:14:58

> > 100 Monkeys could pound out Shakespeare eventually. My ADD/ADHD brain wonders "Who taught the monkeys to type?"
> >
> **The latest theory is that one day a FedEx box washed ashore an island beach containing one 'Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing' program originally meant for overnight delivery from Amazon.com...

Interesting theory, but since it doesn't involve the monkeys taking medication :-) I'd like to redirect follow-ups to it, and other theories, too, to Psycho-Social-Babble, thanks.

Bob


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