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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Barbara Cat on July 29, 2003, at 12:12:10
In reply to Lamictal rash. No prob with care » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on July 28, 2003, at 11:00:54
Hi Friends,
Just wanted to say, for what it's worth, that even in the midst of feeling better it can get bad. I don't know who else to ease these feelings with except with those who have been there. There's alot of grief coming up, second wind of grief over my Mom, grief of feeling so bad physically just when I was starting to ride my bike and dance again. Panic attacks just on the edge. Not sleeping, sick and tired of hearing my husband go on and on and ON about his friggin golf game, not trusting anyone to not judge me when I'm this down, feeling very alone and very scared. The house turns to clutter because I can't think straight enough to pick up after myself, all kinds of impacted grief and pain are rising and I can't tell if it's 'real' and ultimately a healthy thing, or just mood masturbation. It's hard to be in my skin.No pill is working right now. High doses of benzos, ambien, don't put me to sleep and don't remove the claustrophobic panic. No amount of pain meds even touch the head and body aches. I'm not sure what's going on and the only thing I can think to do is drag my aching exhausted body somewhere to pace it off, write in my journal, hang on until the waves of sobbing and panic ease up. Alone, by myself. I'm feeling more and more estranged from my husband who I don't feel much in common with anymore, and besides he annoys me to tears with constant play by play descriptions of the baseball game, the golf game, stories of things I've heard 9 times before. Doesn't he get it? He's been through this with me before and is now showing great quantities of impatience and annoyance with me for taking time away from his golf game. I don't blame him at all for not wanting be around someone else's pain, but this is not the person I need around me right now. I don't feel safe with my friends or anyone with this stuff because it is so very hard to be around. There is no physical body I feel safe or comfortable with right now. Who wants to be around a very down person when the sun is shining on a summer day? Who wants to be known as a depressive downer of a person? I've been distracting myself from this thing for a while now and just this morning I finally turned around and faced it and admitted it. I can't rail against the exhaustion and sickness (gee, if only I didn't feel so crappy physically...) because they're just aspects of the encompassing sickness.
I guess it's good to come back to these times every now and then to realize what an immense struggle this stuff can be. Teaches us compassion. Life is hard, that can't be denied. Even tho my filters are usually strong enough to see the good parts, right now they're not very convincing. I'm tired, depleted, scared and fed up with the rug being pulled out every damn time. Sorry to dump this on you but I know you can understand better than anyone. Lithium, lamictal, ADs, whatever. They help and maintain, but when something this consuming hits, there's something else going on. My mind feels shattered, but that may not be a bad thing. Please keep me in your kind thoughts for the next few days. I need support from all kinds of 'unseen realms' cause those are the only kind I can relate to right now. - Barbara
Posted by katia on July 29, 2003, at 12:58:24
In reply to Feeling pretty bad, posted by Barbara Cat on July 29, 2003, at 12:12:10
> all kinds of impacted grief and pain are rising and I can't tell if it's 'real' and ultimately a healthy thing, or just mood masturbation. It's hard to be in my skin.
Barbara Barbara Barbara,
Honey, I've been there too! You are in my thoughts and I hope things start turning brighter for you! (For you're own sake, not anyone else's!).
I totally relate to trying to figure out if this is an "unhealthy" thing or "mood masturbation". Prior to acknowledging and looking at the fact that I had a mood disorder, I kept trying to figure it out through childhood stuff, therapy, etc. I wonder how many dollars I've spent on therapy working with my sad state and all the negative and perceived problems that come with it when in reality, I really needed to start working with medications to see what REALLY needed to be worked out and to see what was jaded by the lens of depression. It's so hard to weed out what is healthy and "unhealthy" - mood related emotions. We don't want to suppress the healthy ones in fear we're getting depressed again with more meds. and we're then so hypervigilant like when something like this night you're experiencing happens. We think, 'not again" ,that bottome is dropping out from under me again!". Sometimes in that state, I don't want my mood to get better, because I want to figure it out now! I can't take the roller coaster ride anymore.And remember when in this state EVERYTHING looks and feels a million times worse than it is. (like your relationship with hubby). It's hard on loved ones too to get this. When they see you so fine one minute, how could you be sad again?! It's harder on us though. They get to see it from the outside and even maybe throw some blame on us - which is like adding insult to injury. There is a book out there called "When Someone You Love is Depressed" by Laura Epstein Rosen and Xavier Amador. This might help? Does your husband have a support group? It might help you both in the long run.
It is so hard too because you're body is aching all over as well. It exacerbates everything. People who suffer from mood disorders are warriors of the psyche. It is so tough to hang on!!!!!! I'm alone because I've not managed to keep a hold of any boyfriend due to my temperment! It's all so difficult to sort out and live with and just when we do - that damn rug is pulled out again when we are least excepting it!
Be well and write again if you need to!
Katia> No pill is working right now. High doses of benzos, ambien, don't put me to sleep and don't remove the claustrophobic panic. No amount of pain meds even touch the head and body aches. I'm not sure what's going on and the only thing I can think to do is drag my aching exhausted body somewhere to pace it off, write in my journal, hang on until the waves of sobbing and panic ease up. Alone, by myself. I'm feeling more and more estranged from my husband who I don't feel much in common with anymore, and besides he annoys me to tears with constant play by play descriptions of the baseball game, the golf game, stories of things I've heard 9 times before. Doesn't he get it? He's been through this with me before and is now showing great quantities of impatience and annoyance with me for taking time away from his golf game. I don't blame him at all for not wanting be around someone else's pain, but this is not the person I need around me right now. I don't feel safe with my friends or anyone with this stuff because it is so very hard to be around. There is no physical body I feel safe or comfortable with right now. Who wants to be around a very down person when the sun is shining on a summer day? Who wants to be known as a depressive downer of a person? I've been distracting myself from this thing for a while now and just this morning I finally turned around and faced it and admitted it. I can't rail against the exhaustion and sickness (gee, if only I didn't feel so crappy physically...) because they're just aspects of the encompassing sickness.
>
> I guess it's good to come back to these times every now and then to realize what an immense struggle this stuff can be. Teaches us compassion. Life is hard, that can't be denied. Even tho my filters are usually strong enough to see the good parts, right now they're not very convincing. I'm tired, depleted, scared and fed up with the rug being pulled out every damn time. Sorry to dump this on you but I know you can understand better than anyone. Lithium, lamictal, ADs, whatever. They help and maintain, but when something this consuming hits, there's something else going on. My mind feels shattered, but that may not be a bad thing. Please keep me in your kind thoughts for the next few days. I need support from all kinds of 'unseen realms' cause those are the only kind I can relate to right now. - Barbara
Posted by fluffy on July 30, 2003, at 11:02:10
In reply to Feeling pretty bad, posted by Barbara Cat on July 29, 2003, at 12:12:10
Barbara Cat--
Oh I'm feeling your pain right now. I know EXACTLY what you mean about questioning your thoughts and feelings--am I annoyed with my situation and need to change it? Or is it just my disorder? What to do in this situation? I sometimes feel like I shouldn't pay a damned psychotherapist b/c it's hard enough paying for meds and a psychiatrist. But sometimes I think it would be good to have an accurate objective barometer for these times. Do you have a shrink? It might help take the weight off of your husband *a little*. And it would help you feel less guilty for needing him so much. Shrinks get paid to be needed, you know?
I was just thinking to myself that I'm slipping a little this morning. I've had these racing thoughts lately. I'm also feeling anxious and having trouble sleeping. Feeling like I'm on the verge of crying. Mostly, my racing thoughts are critical ones--mainly of my boyfriend right now. It's like he's my target for the moment. I feel like I want to strart fights with him. I'm really annoyed at some things he's done and said lately. Do I let him know how I feel at the risk of being completely inaccurate and just feeling bad? I'm wrestling with this cognitive bullshit, and frankly, I could use MY shrink right now.
Is it August, that dreaded month for me? I hate f*cking August. I always get mixed and panicky. I was hoping that meds would alleviate this ucky stuff at this time of year. It makes me want to take up smoking again. I'm also in the middle of a move, which exacerbates my stress.
So I'm with you, Barbara. I'm just trying to ride out this storm without annoying too many people around me. But feeling lonely doesn't help either.
Hang in!! Please take care and let me know how you do, and I'll do the same. Sorry to be a downer...but hey, misery loves company, right? I have to wonder if being chipper would annoy me even more.
best,
Katy
Posted by fluffy on July 30, 2003, at 11:40:46
In reply to Barb-cat--oh how I know!!, posted by fluffy on July 30, 2003, at 11:02:10
By the way, Barbara--
I feel that I was mood masturbating just then with my last post. I think all you need is someone to care about you right now. What did I do? Just selfishly complained about MY feelings. So I want to send you the best vibes I can right now of empathy and virtual hugging. (((HUGS)))
How are you feeling today, sweet Barbara? I hope, hope, hope a little better.Katy
Posted by Barbara Cat on July 30, 2003, at 11:58:15
In reply to Barb-cat--oh how I know!!, posted by fluffy on July 30, 2003, at 11:02:10
Thanks my friends,
Your being there has been a real port in the storm. I was fighting off panic attacks all day yesterday and finally was able to take a nap in the afternoon, after not sleeping much the last few nights. Sure enough, just when I'm settling down for a nice rest - BOOM! I'm in the midst of a full blown panic attack. I HATE those things!! I can stand anything but not that smothering panic and terror!! No matter how many times I go through them and survive, the next one is never any easier. Can this be the nortriptyline withdrawal I thought I'd escaped? I am not going back to those shit bunging fat pills ever again. I'm almost willing to trade panic attacks for having some saliva again (no, on second thought). The next thing is doing what I can to settle my adrenals cause for whatever reason, this is a classic fight/flight response. My hubby was there for me througout and once again I feel grateful for him. He puts up with alot and the least I can do is listen to his interminable golf plays.Katy, I know what you mean about August. You're the first person I know who feels that way as well. It just feels hot, bright and claustrophobic. I'd much prefer a nice soft rainy day. As you well know, moving is horribly stressful and you either feel it during or afterward. Don't know if you drink coffee. It's so tempting to use extra caffeine as fuel, but it's very depleting in the long run. I've stopped it since feeling this way and even tho I know it's better for me, the headaches are the pits.
As far as the question of are our responses real or a product of our disorder, I dunno, but our feelings sure are real and have to be respected. The trick is how to move through them without alienating everyone else around us. The problem is, during these times I generally don't have much love in my heart for most human beings. Animals, yes. People, no.
I do have a shrink but he's your typical HMO guy. He cares, but there's not alot he can do in our 20 minutes a month. I end up suggesting meds to him and right now I'm out of ideas.
Katia, you mentioned you have mixed states and I know Katy is also bipolar. I wonder if this wild torment is unique to our bipolar/mixed-states condition. I don't hear much about this form of 'depression', it's usually the blahs, no motivation, etc., instead of this fractured frightening stuff. Usually I can get by and maintain by meditation but try to meditate in this state and it's sure to bring on a panic. I guess I'll scrounge some klonopin out of my pdoc. We try one thing then another and they all poop out. My current valium works for an hour then I'm in alarm again. Klonopin is due for another round. Good luck to you as well and remember, sometimes you just need to cry. I have to watch it doesn't turn into wailing and thrashing cause it feeds on itself and gives me a headache and a swollen face. Writing in my journal seems to be the most helpful and only thing I can manage. May be even better than a shrink. - Barbara
Posted by fluffy on July 30, 2003, at 12:25:37
In reply to Thanks Katy, Katia, posted by Barbara Cat on July 30, 2003, at 11:58:15
> Katy, I know what you mean about August. You're the first person I know who feels that way as well. It just feels hot, bright and claustrophobic. I'd much prefer a nice soft rainy day. As you well know, moving is horribly stressful and you either feel it during or afterward.AAARRGH--I thought I could escape it this time without getting mixed or depressed. They always say that stress can bring on episodes, and I've said it myself. But I hoped this run of stability would hold for awhile. Maybe it won't be that bad this time. I'm at the stage where I'm sleeping at mom and dad's place--my new place isn't ready, and my old place is just empty and depressing. What else can I do but just hang on?
>Don't know if you drink coffee. It's so tempting to use extra caffeine as fuel, but it's very depleting in the long run. I've stopped it since feeling this way and even tho I know it's better for me, the headaches are the pits.
I'm a coffee JUNKY. I drink coffee every day. I usually give it up at this time of year due to panic. But it sure helps to have something to look forward to in the morning when I'm not depressed/panicky.
> Katia, you mentioned you have mixed states and I know Katy is also bipolar. I wonder if this wild torment is unique to our bipolar/mixed-states condition. I don't hear much about this form of 'depression', it's usually the blahs, no motivation, etc., instead of this fractured frightening stuff.
Do you guys ever switch from the mixed stuff into full blown, lethagic, slow depression? I seem to get mixed first (which I think is my form of mania) and then transition into depression (typical depression with loss of appetite, etc. which lasts for a LONG time).
I think August is a peak month for Mania (second to March and April). So I'm not surprised when I look at my history that EVERY August to September I became mixed and then fully depressed. I live in a tropical climate, so the sun gets unbearable for me (both in terms of heat and brightness) at this time. Oh how I long for cool breezes and shivering.
I see my doctor this monday. Maybe something else on board would help. *sigh*
lovins,
Katyp.s. glad you are feeling better about your hubby.
Posted by Barbara Cat on July 30, 2003, at 14:27:33
In reply to Re: Barb-cat--oh how I know!!, posted by fluffy on July 30, 2003, at 11:40:46
No, No, I appreciate hearing about other's experiences. It seems the only stuff I read during these times is about people going through similar things. I know you're going through alot right now as well and not that I'd wish it on anyone, I don't feel so alone. It's interesting how symptoms are so similar with mixed bipolars. I didn't know that about August, April. Those are my hardest months. Something about the light? You ought to come up to Oregon to live. Plenty of grey moist weather. I love it, except for August.
Been trying to think about your other question, mania and then depression. I think I get it the other way, feel draggy and blah, can't motivate, hate everything, sleep alot. Then I start feeling the physical symptoms, achey, fried, insomnia, tired and wired. Like the static energy gets dammed up and gets dark and agitated. By the time all that's over I usually feel like I've been given a reprieve, halleluia. Mania mixed states can really take it out of a person, so it's not surprising you'd get depressed afterward, but that doesn't seem to be my cycle. I loved Katia's term - warriors of the psyche, cause it is a battle. I'm very burnt out afterwards, and exploring all this adrenal burnout info, which makes alot of sense.
Know what you mean about coffee. Sometimes it's the only thing I get up for. Maybe when I'm over this spell and things don't affect me so sensitively I'll go back to my one cup cause it's sooooo goooood. Hugs to you too. This moving stuff is a good excuse to get a massage, treat yourself extra special.
> By the way, Barbara--
> I feel that I was mood masturbating just then with my last post. I think all you need is someone to care about you right now. What did I do? Just selfishly complained about MY feelings. So I want to send you the best vibes I can right now of empathy and virtual hugging. (((HUGS)))
> How are you feeling today, sweet Barbara? I hope, hope, hope a little better.
>
> Katy
Posted by katia on July 30, 2003, at 16:57:53
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia, posted by fluffy on July 30, 2003, at 12:25:37
>
> > Katy, I know what you mean about August. You're the first person I know who feels that way as well. It just feels hot, bright and claustrophobic. I'd much prefer a nice soft rainy day. As you well know, moving is horribly stressful and you either feel it during or afterward.
>
> AAARRGH--I thought I could escape it this time without getting mixed or depressed. They always say that stress can bring on episodes, and I've said it myself. But I hoped this run of stability would hold for awhile. Maybe it won't be that bad this time. I'm at the stage where I'm sleeping at mom and dad's place--my new place isn't ready, and my old place is just empty and depressing. What else can I do but just hang on?
>
> >Don't know if you drink coffee. It's so tempting to use extra caffeine as fuel, but it's very depleting in the long run. I've stopped it since feeling this way and even tho I know it's better for me, the headaches are the pits.
>
> I'm a coffee JUNKY. I drink coffee every day. I usually give it up at this time of year due to panic. But it sure helps to have something to look forward to in the morning when I'm not depressed/panicky.
>
> > Katia, you mentioned you have mixed states and I know Katy is also bipolar. I wonder if this wild torment is unique to our bipolar/mixed-states condition. I don't hear much about this form of 'depression', it's usually the blahs, no motivation, etc., instead of this fractured frightening stuff.
>
> Do you guys ever switch from the mixed stuff into full blown, lethagic, slow depression? I seem to get mixed first (which I think is my form of mania) and then transition into depression (typical depression with loss of appetite, etc. which lasts for a LONG time).
>
> I think August is a peak month for Mania (second to March and April). So I'm not surprised when I look at my history that EVERY August to September I became mixed and then fully depressed. I live in a tropical climate, so the sun gets unbearable for me (both in terms of heat and brightness) at this time. Oh how I long for cool breezes and shivering.
>
Hi Katy (and Barb),
I seem to not have a noticeable pattern yet. I have always been depressed to different degrees. Always! But looking back, I definitely experience the mixed state prior to a worsening of depression. So I go from mild/mod depression to mixed to mod/severe. I guess you could say. Looking back, there was one summer where I experienced what is probably called mania, in 1988 when I was 17/18 (very euphoric) and I crashed into a bad depression somewhere in the fall and I feel I've never really recovered from that depression. It's just come in degrees with mixed in there too. I've probably only had about a month here and there (total of prob. 6) in the course of 15-20 years, where i felt all storms subside and I just felt good and normal. When that normalcy hits, it normally didn't stay for long as I guess what is called mixed mania or just hypomania hits me and throws me totally out of balance. It's so hard to figure out when during all this time I wasn't addressing it as depression or mania - just "wierd" me who needed to mask it and hide it through various means. it's only been since last summer since I chose to start honestly looking at this and get chemical help. And none of the ADs has worked for me! which led me to my bipolar dx.
yes, I can relate to sticky icky August. Sometimes the long summer bright days are too much for my mood. Sometimes the winter best mirrors what I feel and I don't feel so incongruent. And it goes in reverse too! depending on my mood! I live in the Bay area of California.
good luck with your move. I can empathize as I've moved about six times in the past year and a half! it makes things worse. esp. for those who need vigilant watch on their sensitive balancing act!
be well.
Katia
Posted by fluffy on July 30, 2003, at 17:54:37
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia » fluffy, posted by katia on July 30, 2003, at 16:57:53
> good luck with your move. I can empathize as I've moved about six times in the past year and a half! it makes things worse. esp. for those who need vigilant watch on their sensitive balancing act!
> be well.
> Katia
>
>
Thanks Katia--
I perked up and took notice when you said you had moved 3 times in a year and a half. Me too!! The last time I moved, I was having my most full blown manic episode where I decided that EVERYTHING in my life had to change all at once. This time I've kept my head about it. My friends joke about my constant moves. They always ask, "how many times have you moved since i've known you?" I hope this is the last one before i BUY A DAMNED HOUSE!The seasonal theory of mood changes holds true for lots of BP folks, but it's not written in stone. You may not really have a regular pattern. For me, there are times when I'm more susceptible to changes...usually when the seasons change. Add some stress or trauma into the mix--and POOF! bad, bad episode. I hate being so damned fragile.
best of luck with you too, Katia!
Katy
Posted by katia on July 30, 2003, at 23:04:28
In reply to Thanks Katy, Katia, posted by fluffy on July 30, 2003, at 17:54:37
>
> > good luck with your move. I can empathize as I've moved about six times in the past year and a half! it makes things worse. esp. for those who need vigilant watch on their sensitive balancing act!
> > be well.
> > Katia
> >
> >
> Thanks Katia--
> I perked up and took notice when you said you had moved 3 times in a year and a half. Me too!! The last time I moved, I was having my most full blown manic episode where I decided that EVERYTHING in my life had to change all at once. This time I've kept my head about it. My friends joke about my constant moves. They always ask, "how many times have you moved since i've known you?" I hope this is the last one before i BUY A DAMNED HOUSE!
>
> The seasonal theory of mood changes holds true for lots of BP folks, but it's not written in stone. You may not really have a regular pattern. For me, there are times when I'm more susceptible to changes...usually when the seasons change. Add some stress or trauma into the mix--and POOF! bad, bad episode. I hate being so damned fragile.
>
> best of luck with you too, Katia!
>
> Katy
Hi Katy!
I said SIX times!!! It's too much....Over the years, my friends have developed one full address book just for me!
When you say full blown manic episode what do you mean? If I remember correctly your dx is BPII? and you take only Lamictal? forgive me if my memory is off - foggy head and all that. BTW, where do you live - at least which country?
katia
Posted by nmk on July 31, 2003, at 13:35:30
In reply to Feeling pretty bad, posted by Barbara Cat on July 29, 2003, at 12:12:10
Hi Barbara,
I haven't been reading posts these past few days but when I read today how badly you were feeling, I wanted to let you know I was thinking about you. You have such a wonderful gift Barbara and you provide me with the inspiration, motivation, and insight to keep pushing on, even through the darkest of moments. Hope is the only thing I am holding onto these days and you have contributed greatly to my persistence and proactive stance with my illness.
I know the feeling of taking one step forward, two back, and I have a tendency to get frustrated to the point of wanting to give into those feelings of negativity and depression. It is like someone is playing a cruel joke on us....we start to feel better, are making progress toward our goals, and we FINALLY believe there is an end to the madness. Then, you awake one morning to find that nothing is certain. One thing I know for sure is that it WILL end. You will regain your fortitude, positive energy, and that sense of humor we all love (ie; dancing queen...loved it!!).
I only hope you continue to post when you need support. You give so much to others and we would do anything for you. Continue to write in your journal, take good care of yourself, and let me know if today is a better day.
Sincerely,
Nicole :)
Posted by fluffy on July 31, 2003, at 14:18:08
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia » fluffy, posted by katia on July 30, 2003, at 23:04:28
Hey Katia--
As far as I know, I'm not BPI. But I really wouldn't care anymore at this point. So long as the medication makes a dent in my symptoms. Last summer I was continually hypomanic for at least a month. Since I've never had to be hospitalized, heard or seen things (full blown manic) I'm not classified as BPI. I have suffered a great deal from agitated depressions, which I guess are mixed states. And I remember my doc saying the presence of them classifies a person as BPI. (I think mixed states can be mild and full blown just like mania though). The only time I had a full blown mixed state was while on Lexapro. If a mixed state or mania occurs while on an antidepressant, it doesn't "count" towards the diagnosis.
I'm only on Lamictal now, but I may end up adding something else to my cocktail soon. Maybe Depakote or Li. I've had trouble sleeping and having racing thoughts and the like.
best,
katy
Posted by katia on July 31, 2003, at 14:49:02
In reply to Katia: RE: BP II clinical mumbo jumbo, posted by fluffy on July 31, 2003, at 14:18:08
I agree to a point that it can mumbo jumbo. But it is also a fresh relief for me to have something solid and revealing about what I've been experiencing most of my life. As much of my life I dismissed psychiatry and depression ,etc. as a bunch of mumbo jumbo - (my denial kicking in). It feels good to give a language to what I've been feeling so as to take steps in order to transform out of this darkness and acknowledge something that is not so much my fault or my **** ups.
If you try depakote, let's keep in touch about it as I'm waiting for mine to come in the mail.
katia
Posted by Barbara Cat on July 31, 2003, at 16:15:41
In reply to Re: Feeling pretty bad » Barbara Cat, posted by nmk on July 31, 2003, at 13:35:30
Dear Nicole,
Thank you so much, sweetie. You've made a big difference to me today. I feel your care so much. Thank you. Today is up and down, well not really much up. The real hard stuff is the panic attacks, which I haven't had for a few years. I'll wake up out of sleep and be in the middle of one. I can stand anything, but not them. I stopped taking nortriptyline not too long ago and I think this may be a fallout from that, at least in part. The other part is that there's some PTSD flashbacks coming very strong from my, uh, challenging childhood. I never know what I'm supposed to do with this stuff - is it my extra sensitive nervous system due to med withdrawal? Is it something I should be processing?I've grown weary and suspicious of the whole psychotherapist thing, especially with the in-and-out managed care travesty and health records open to far too many people. Here I am with the only place left to go, and that is Spirit, my inner knowing, and maybe that's what I need to learn. It's as good enough reason as any, I guess. So, luckily, I'm in a position where I'm not working, can swing on my hammock on the porch, pet my cats, ocassionally talk to the hubby, keep taking lithium and lamictal, but by God, I will not go back to an antidepressant again. There's got to be another way. Like you wisely said, we will beat this thing. Maybe not 100% but I'll take what I can get. Love and thanks to you. - Barbara
Posted by PhilipCarey on July 31, 2003, at 21:21:51
In reply to Thanks Katy, Katia, posted by Barbara Cat on July 30, 2003, at 11:58:15
Barbara, don't mean to barge in on the thread, but a while back I remember reading your posts, and how great you were doing on Remeron and Lithium. I wondered whether a bit of Remeron might help you gain some much needed sleep. I don't really remember why it was that you quit that. Seems you were anti-meds for a bit, and that's the last I read.
Best of luck to you. I can sure tell you're going through a difficult time right now.
Posted by katia on August 1, 2003, at 1:38:14
In reply to Re: Feeling pretty bad » nmk, posted by Barbara Cat on July 31, 2003, at 16:15:41
it my extra sensitive nervous system due to med withdrawal? Is it something I should be processing?
>
> I've grown weary and suspicious of the whole psychotherapist thing, especially with the in-and-out managed care travesty and health records open to far too many people. Here I am with the only place left to go, and that is Spirit, my inner knowing, and maybe that's what I need to learn. It's as good enough reason as any, I guess. So, luckily, I'm in a position where I'm not working, can swing on my hammock on the porch, pet my cats, ocassionally talk to the hubby, keep taking lithium and lamictal, but by God, I will not go back to an antidepressant again. There's got to be another way. Like you wisely said, we will beat this thing. Maybe not 100% but I'll take what I can get. Love and thanks to you. - BarbaraHi,
For some reason I feel partially responsible for all this questioning of psychotherapy - in regards to my questioning my own dollars spent over the years. I meant it in my first posting as simply - it's hard to decipher what's what with moods and natural need to process; esp. in the face of medications. I feel like a lot of people going are starting to bash therapy. Maybe it's me, but I think it's a good thing. it's just important to tease out if youcan
(and you can do this in therapy) what is the depression and what is real stuff that needs to be processed.
Maybe I've read into things too much; but it seems ever since I wrote some honest feelings about therapy, a lot of people have written it off. Is it my imagination? FYI, I've never been to a therapist under any insurance. I go solely from my own pocket. And that pocket is nothing. My rent alone is $750 per month. Most people I know go to someone not under HMOs or the like.
Katia
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 1, 2003, at 2:51:22
In reply to Re: Feeling pretty bad » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 1, 2003, at 1:38:14
Hi Katia,
I've had wonderful luck with therapists and wish I had a good one right now. I'm in a huge HMO and it's like a revolving door. Those poor people are so overworked and stressed out themselves. My pdoc doesn't do therapy. I think I'm going to have to find one I'm paying out of pocket as well. You can spend more time and get into some important issues instead of the quick fix limited sessions. Besides, I had reason to look at my medical records and was absolutely shocked at how exposed my history is to anyone you sign your life away to, like jobs, bank accounts, loans. We don't think about such things and assume we're getting a deal by having insurance pay. Insurance companies demand detailed record keeping and nothing is safe, no matter who says differently. It concerns me greatly. I think privacy is maintained when insurance doesn't get involved. Thanks for clearing things up, but I'm with you - also a big fan of good therapy.> it my extra sensitive nervous system due to med withdrawal? Is it something I should be processing?
> >
> > I've grown weary and suspicious of the whole psychotherapist thing, especially with the in-and-out managed care travesty and health records open to far too many people. Here I am with the only place left to go, and that is Spirit, my inner knowing, and maybe that's what I need to learn. It's as good enough reason as any, I guess. So, luckily, I'm in a position where I'm not working, can swing on my hammock on the porch, pet my cats, ocassionally talk to the hubby, keep taking lithium and lamictal, but by God, I will not go back to an antidepressant again. There's got to be another way. Like you wisely said, we will beat this thing. Maybe not 100% but I'll take what I can get. Love and thanks to you. - Barbara
>
> Hi,
> For some reason I feel partially responsible for all this questioning of psychotherapy - in regards to my questioning my own dollars spent over the years. I meant it in my first posting as simply - it's hard to decipher what's what with moods and natural need to process; esp. in the face of medications. I feel like a lot of people going are starting to bash therapy. Maybe it's me, but I think it's a good thing. it's just important to tease out if youcan
> (and you can do this in therapy) what is the depression and what is real stuff that needs to be processed.
> Maybe I've read into things too much; but it seems ever since I wrote some honest feelings about therapy, a lot of people have written it off. Is it my imagination? FYI, I've never been to a therapist under any insurance. I go solely from my own pocket. And that pocket is nothing. My rent alone is $750 per month. Most people I know go to someone not under HMOs or the like.
> Katia
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 1, 2003, at 3:13:14
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia, posted by PhilipCarey on July 31, 2003, at 21:21:51
Thanks for barging. Much appreciated. It's meant alot at how my Babble Buds have bouyed me up during this crummy time. Yes, I was on Remeron a year ago. It worked beautifully for a few months and then pooped into a massive mixed states depression. Went on lithium to augment it, not knowing that I was really dealing with Bipolar rather than major depression. You probably caught me when I was on the upswing from the combo. The two worked great for 3 months, better than any other, and then pooped again. It was at this point I decided I didn't want to do SSRI's any more because of the classic zoom and poop routine that I've had on every one of them. I put on 30 lbs on Remeron and felt either sluggish or agitated. Plus, I still couldnt sleep. So it's not worth it. I've felt much better in general from lithium and lamictal, although this current spell is a down and dirty one. Meds don't seem to be metabolizing. I don't think I'm so much anti-med as much as being committed to my dying day to finding the right ones and using my increased clarity and health as a springboard to better functioning. If I can get through each day I feel like I've done something notable, even if it's only laying on my hammock. A day without multi hits of panic is a darn good one and I have to thank my blessings.
I really think we can do it as long as we build up reserves and have help nearby. Sure wish I could find a good sleeper, though. It really affects my fibromyalgia badly and that's a whole other story. The bottom line is that for me, meds haven't living up to their potential and I think it has somethingvto do with - somethine, Idont' know. So with nothin but myself to turn to I', goin to weather this out on lam and lihium and hope I don't damage any wires in the process. So, thanks for your concern and suggestion. If you have any other ideas, keep 'em coming. I think I'm in for a long spell with this one and company is helping so much. - Barbara
> Barbara, don't mean to barge in on the thread, but a while back I remember reading your posts, and how great you were doing on Remeron and Lithium. I wondered whether a bit of Remeron might help you gain some much needed sleep. I don't really remember why it was that you quit that. Seems you were anti-meds for a bit, and that's the last I read.
>
> Best of luck to you. I can sure tell you're going through a difficult time right now.
>
>
Posted by katia on August 1, 2003, at 14:37:27
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia » PhilipCarey, posted by Barbara Cat on August 1, 2003, at 3:13:14
HI Barbara,
Are you still having a hard time? It wasn't as quick as my bottom crashing out. My "cycles" what ever they are, are so quick - up one minute and down the next. High energy either way! and dullness and dust in between. Have you talked to your pdoc? Maybe you need a slight adjustment with the med combo. It'd be a good thing to mention to him/her. It could be about tweaking one up or one down a bit.
yes, as unfortunate as it is that I don't have insurance, it's been good in that over the years I haven't even messed around with HMO therapists. (not that there aren't good ones), but it's such a delicate matter that you have to find the right fit and sometimes that doesn't happen within that system. (and as you pointed out, it's all on paper for whomever to see). Same here - pdoc is medication related and that's it. Therapist - talk therapy. Two different people and two different jobs.
The anxiety is something terrible. I feel for you. Depression is one thing, and horrible enough as it is, it is so much better without the horrible anxiety!!! I know it's hard in this state, but hard physical activity can allievate it. Do you have bikram yoga near you? That is so intense, you totally forget about everything except breathing and enduring the poses. and then you feel good for a brief moment at the end.
good luck to you.
Katia
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 1, 2003, at 17:23:19
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 1, 2003, at 14:37:27
> pdoc is medication related and that's it. Therapist - talk therapy. Two different people and two different jobs.
And two different boards. :-) Sorry to intrude, but I'd like further discussion of psychotherapy to be redirected to Psychological Babble. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20030711/msgs/247437.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 2, 2003, at 1:55:18
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on August 1, 2003, at 14:37:27
Hi Katia,
I'm doing better today, thanks. Just sat with the anguish the last week (barely) and hung on and let myself cry. Have to remember that the pain of my Mom's death is still very raw and comes in waves. But - A reprieve today! Hope it sticks. With every new episode, THIS TIME is different, THIS TIME I'm really going to slip off the edge, THIS TIME I'm going to fall into that black pit forever. The mind is so weird, there's no reasoning with it in that state. The only med adjustment is allowing myself to take extra valium when I feel like I'm going to jump out of my skin (Yo, Dr. Bob, psychopharm refs to follow). There's no reason to muscle through something like that. It's the flight/fight chemicals gone amuk, the amygdala caught in a loop. There's no reason to not seek relief from such debilitation. I used to be such a damn stoic, but no more. Give me drugs that work!!! And while we're at it - WE NEED A NEW DRUG!!!!Bikram yoga, ah, how I wish. I live in a rural area where Bikram yoga would be considered the backyard of the Devil's playground. I'd love to have that kind of community. There is a new Zen monastery not terribly far away and I'm availing myself of it. I do yoga on my own and lots of belly dance, which is my drug of choice. I'm in my cave experience right now and not seeking other people. Most I encounter are crass disgusting jackasses, and those I'd like to hang out with are hiding out as well. This will eventually change as I mend.
The energy moving disciplines are at least as good as any med out there. It's just finding the motivation and clarity to START. I know this very well and yet when I'm in the grip of a bad one, there's nothing that can move me through it except time, love and tenderness (to quote Michael Bolton). ;-)
Posted by Ron Hill on August 2, 2003, at 21:31:45
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 2, 2003, at 1:55:18
Barbara,
Wow! You're going through a tough time, huh? I'm so sorry Barb. But do not lose heart; you will cycle back up soon.
Why did you discontinue the TCA? Do you feel depressed or is it more of a dysphoric mood state issue? Please list your symptoms for me. Can you put your finger on what caused you to begin the downward spiral (or was it a cliff)?
I’ve been away from the board for a few weeks, and I have not had time to read past posts. Therefore, I don't know your recent history other than what you've written in this thread. I'm so sorry that you are in such pain. And you were doing so well as recently as a month or two ago.
You will cycle back up, Barb. It's just a matter of time. What does your pdoc say? Have you seen him/her since the start of your recent hell?
There are solutions to your current brainchemistry problems. All we have to do is find one or two and then implement them (solutions that is). There ARE answers! Start looking. I know you can do it because you’ve done it before.
Talk to me B-Cat.
-- Ron
Posted by Barbara Cat on August 3, 2003, at 15:17:59
In reply to Re: Best wishes to my friend B-Cat » Barbara Cat, posted by Ron Hill on August 2, 2003, at 21:31:45
Hi Ron,
Thanks so much for your heartwarming wishes. It means so much to be understood and cared for during these times. Yes, I've been through a very trying time of it. Not the first, probably not the last. I went off nortriptyline because of the dry mouth and constipation. Plus, I'm taking a boatload of pills already and don't think I'm absorbing them very well. As I decreased nortrip I was slowly increasing lamictal from 75 to 150mg. Feeling great, a little hypomanic, the kind we all love so much. It was probably a combo of the two meds potentiating each other. Have a great time riding my bike for miles, dancing, having a good old time, getting lots of exercise. Ahhhh! Then I started noticing increasing disorganization and a wired singed feeling that heralds an oncoming mixed state. I think it was lamictal over activating with the extra help of the TCA, but who knows for sure. I do know I visited hell for a while.Here's what I think happened. When my sleep becomes disturbed, that's when the miseries start. I have fibromyalgia and loss of sleep is my downfall. No amount of Ambien, benzos, benedryl, were helping me get to sleep. I'd lie there with swirling disjointed thoughts bordering on mild psychosis. I also developed a severe itch which I found out is a side effect of lamictal (no rash, just intense internal and external itching). I was up most of the night scratching and fretting about life. What followed was a bad fibro flare with the sick aching, inflamed brain feeling, wired and tired, and all the pain of the world crashed in. The first mixed states I've had since starting lithium. I then started getting panic attacks which I haven't had in a few years. Those things are beyond horrible. I totally forget anything I ever knew about anything, simple things like breathing into a paper bag.
I also believe it was a long overdue reckoning with the fact that my Mom is really and truly dead, so at least I had a good reason for the constant crying. I can usually muscle through a mood state like this, distract in some half-assed way, but not when I'm laid flat with a fibro flare.
But I remembered - ah, I've got valium (klonopin and ativan pooped out a while back), and starting taking it regularly. This broke the cycle of hell and I'm getting some rest, although not much Stage IV. A big learning as well was this time I finally stopped fighting it and somewhere a little light shined and reminded me that I'd been there before and for whatever reason, my feelings were valid and to be honored. No reason to hate myself for feeling like shit.
Getting back to my meditating and some yoga, very slowly. So I'm on lithium 600mg and lamictal 125mg (more was causing an infernal itching). Ron, I've had it with TCA's and SSRI's. I'm determined to do this on mood stabilizers until a med comes out that isn't a dud. But I REALLY REALLY have to watch my sleep and not stress out. That whole HPA-axis disregulation has my picture next to it in the textbook. Right now, this minute, I'm feeling pretty good, notable for the fact that I'm also feeling centered and focussed. I'm also very proud of myself for having made it through another battle. Like Katia calls us - Warriors of the Psyce. Hope you're doing well. Thanks so very much for caring for me and the feeling is reciprocated. - Barbara
Posted by Ron Hill on August 3, 2003, at 20:52:13
In reply to Re: Best wishes to my friend B-Cat » Ron Hill, posted by Barbara Cat on August 3, 2003, at 15:17:59
Barbara,
> Here's what I think happened. When my sleep becomes disturbed, that's when the miseries start. I have fibromyalgia and loss of sleep is my downfall.
Me too. Disruption of my sleep cycle triggers my bipolar symptoms. I take 800 mg of magnesium (half Mg Citrate and half Mg Malate) at bedtime and it is an excellent sleep aid (for me). You’re a nutritional supplement goo-rue so I’m sure you take some magnesium. How much do you take and what chelating agent? Have you ever tried taking it at bedtime?
> A big learning as well was this time I finally stopped fighting it and somewhere a little light shined and reminded me that I'd been there before and for whatever reason, my feelings were valid and to be honored. No reason to hate myself for feeling like shit.
I agree. Beating yourself up with negative self-talk makes it worse. Like you, it helps me to cognitively understand that my symptoms are directly related to my BPII and that this too shall pass.
> Getting back to my meditating and some yoga, very slowly.
Good. Prayer and exercise both improve brainchemistry for me.
> So I'm on lithium 600mg and lamictal 125mg (more was causing an infernal itching).
I like this combo. As it turns out, this combo doesn’t work for me because Lamictal causes a severe rash over a significant portion of my body. But for those BP patients that can tolerate it, I think it is a good combination.
> Ron, I've had it with TCA's and SSRI's. I'm determined to do this on mood stabilizers until a med comes out that isn't a dud.
Yeah, this has been my position for the past couple of years. But sometimes I wonder if Nardil or another MAOI in conjunction with Lithobid might be worth a trial. ENADA NADH continues to function pretty well to control my atypical depression, but if it were to poop-out on me, I might consider a Nardil trial. Also, serotonin elevating medications (e.g. SSRI’s) completely solve my dysphoric mood state problems (EXTREME irritability) but they also take away my drive and my emotions. But maybe Nardil would get rid of the irritability without turning me into what my wife affectionately refers to as her “do nothing boy”.
Refresh my memory; you tried ENADA NADH, correct? Did it help, hurt, or provide no effect for you.
> But I REALLY REALLY have to watch my sleep and not stress out.
Again I agree with you. Stress is a HUGE factor affecting the onset of my BP symptoms. I have a theory (which may or may not be correct) that goes like this: People like you and I who experienced an inordinately high volume and intensity of childhood trauma damaged our stress response systems due to overuse, and now as adults, the slightest level of stress completely screws up our systems and adversely affects our brainchemistry.
> Right now, this minute, I'm feeling pretty good, notable for the fact that I'm also feeling centered and focussed.
Good.
> I'm also very proud of myself for having made it through another battle.
Yes indeed. Good job. I hope calm waters lie ahead.
> Hope you're doing well.
For the past month I’ve been having trouble with wretched dysphoric mood states. I don’t know if it should be classified as a mixed state condition, but it is hell to experience and it is hell for my wife when I’m screaming 24/7. Niacin (250 mg a couple times a day) helps to reduce my irritability and l-theanine (200 mg a couple times a day) helps even more, but neither one fully solve the irritability problem. Further, as with most nutritional supplements, if I use them every day they begin to loose their effectiveness. About two weeks ago I added 400 mg/day (200 bid) of Neurontin (gabapentin) to my Lithobid. It reduces (moderately well) my irritability within a few minutes of taking a dose, but the half-life of this stuff is so short that I begin to rebound back into an irritable mood state after about three hours and the rebound state is worse than if I had not taken it to begin with. If I bump up the dosage to 800 mg/day I experience cognitive blunting problems. I quit taking it a couple days ago. I don’t think I want to keep it in my cocktail. Exercise (stress relief) and prayer seem to be key in treating my dysphoric mood states. I’ve had some breakthroughs over the past couple of days and I’m doing fairly well today.
> Thanks so very much for caring for me and the feeling is reciprocated. - Barbara
And thank you as well Ms. B-Cat!
-- Ron
Posted by katia on August 4, 2003, at 0:47:45
In reply to Re: Thanks Katy, Katia » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on August 2, 2003, at 1:55:18
HI Barb,
My mood has been in exact opposite of yours. My mood has definitely turned for the better! I'm so excited about it. I think it has to do with the fact that I'm meditating again and that I leave my window open at night. I wake up feeling so good b/c of the fresh breezes. it's been over a year since I've been med free. and my body is starting to adjust very well. I think that taking those ADs for the past year made me worse. I've been w/o any meds for about three weeks now. the first two were hard, but now I"m starting to feel "brighter". like the song - things are going to get brighter. It feels amazing .. I'm so happy that I've finally risen out of darkness.Anyway, i wanted to bring up an issue and maybe this is reserved for a "social" issue and if it is will you please follow it with me? that's what i hate about being re-directed, i"m never sure if people will follow it or not.
anyway - it's this. I know it's totally ridiculous and typical and he's probably gay - nothing wrong with this at all and which is great for gay men, but not so good for me, but I don't know what to do with this. I have a crush on my psychiatrist. Yes, I do. I feel ridiculous. I can't help it. he's a bit older, very educated, funny (with sense of humor), and intelligent and able to converse on an emotional level and why not????? Really?!
Anyway I've thought about not posting this. I'm still waiting for the depakote in the mail. I honestly am thinking that I need to give it a try with no meds. I am starting to feel normal and I can focus and I feel happy to be alive. And I don't want to call this hypomanic. I want to keep this feeling. Can't I just be exuberant and joyful to be alive without being labeled? really. I need to know what is going on with me without meds. I'm not sure if I'll take the depakote when it comes in the mail.
anyway,
how are you?
will you follow this thread if it goes to social babble?
Katia
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