![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 585 to 609 of 948. Go back in thread:
Posted by fluffy on September 10, 2003, at 11:33:42
In reply to How's the Fluffsters? » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2003, at 20:19:19
Hi--I'm here.
You're sweet for noticing that I was "gone".I don't have internet access, and I can only do this while I'm at my job. I have a VERY low key job at a book shop, so I'm able to surf a lot.
Well, I got through the class I teach last night w/o a scratch. I didn't fumble too much w/ my words. The opening of the exhibition is tonight. And that shouldn't be too difficult.
My pdoc appointment yesterday was another story. My doc seems to think that I shouldn't be taking Lithium because I'm having severe cognitive side effects, even at a low dose. And I went hypomanic for about 4 days--super, super speedy and frenetic (while on the Li). I've been on it for almost two weeks now, and no significant improvements--if anything, I've had some setbacks. I tried to write a book review 3 days ago, and I couldn't even put sentences together. I have been stuttering, and I can't find words. I've been reminding myself 5 times why I'm walking into a room, and even then, sometimes I forget why I am there. WHAT TO DO???
He wanted to switch me right away to Zyprexa, Depakote or Trileptal. I decided to wait it out and see if it gets better. Last night, I slept on my own w/o the benzo. So at least that's good. But I still feel stupid. And now I'm getting the watery mouth (thirst) thing.
It is SUPER important to me to be able to have my memory and such (like I suppose it is to ANYONE). I decided to try the Li for another week or so to see if this all clears up. My doc said it was a sound decision--one that a normal clinician would make. He is somewhat radical as a researcher. And he admitted that he makes decisions more quickly than your normal psychiatrist.
Katia--if the Depakote WORKS, then count yourself lucky. Not everyone benefits from the same combos of meds. And if you find the right one or combo right away, then GREAT!
I'm caught up in the confusing and frustrating process of finding the final touch to stop this roller coaster--it SUCKS!!
Best to all,
Katy
Posted by katia on September 10, 2003, at 12:35:31
In reply to Re: How's the Fluffsters?, posted by fluffy on September 10, 2003, at 11:33:42
Hi Fluffy, Barbara, etc.
I'm having a hard time figuring out what's what too. Sunday night I barely slept and Monday I had tons of energy. Monday I slept 11hrs and yesterday I could barely drag myself out of bed to run errands to just come crawling back to bed. Last night I slept 8 hours and feel fine today.
If the Depakote works doesn't matter b/c I'm so afraid of the PCOS and infertility and I'm certainly not losing weight by any means.
You've probably read some of the posts here, if you do go on Depakote, it may be worth your while to get some L-Carnitine. My pdoc wants to see how I do on Depakote for the next 8 weeks while I titrate slowly on Lamictal and then add Lithium (after coming off of Dep). He mentioned Trileptal sp? as a good one to try. I know that he said that it is similar to Tegretol, but with less side effects.For me, all I know is that I want something with an antidepressant quality as that's my main thing. Like yesterday. It was awful. I'm sick of hiding away from the world. When is there a good time to just go back into it? work-wise. I wait tables twice a week and am starting to loathe it and it's exhausting. I'm too old for this! And I am going 1000$ in the hole per month!
I know I'm not totally stable (of course not - I'll be when I find the right med/combo?) as I do impulsive things that make sense at the time, but then a day later I cringe. for instance, I walked out Friday from my pdoc's appt. w/o paying, I forgot and then I went back on Monday to pay with loads of literature on studies/research for my pdoc along with a four page poem that I had written 9 mos. or so ago. I thought it would help him understand me better. It made perfect sense to give it to him then, now I can't figure out why I did that? Stupid things that I'm so sure about at the time and just have to do them or perform the act and am quite adamant and stubborn about it, then a few hours/days and I can't believe I've done it!anyone else can relate? I'm not totally convinced that I'm BP. And I need for my pdoc to talk to me about things like giving him poems, leaving bizarre messages. How does he know that I am? It's all so confusing. I might just be agitated depressed. and the times I've experienced any type of mania was probably just my reaction for coming out of the depression cave. But I can relate so well to BP stories. I'm confused. And can dx's change over the years? And will I have to take meds for life?
I suppose I'll ask him all these questions.
Katia
Posted by fluffy on September 10, 2003, at 15:32:40
In reply to Official Side-effects, posted by Ponder on September 8, 2003, at 13:00:53
Hey Katia, B-cat, Ponder,
Sometimes I think it's just hard for them to put side effects into words. (They have to sound clinical, you know--they can't very well say--"it causes a fuzzy but activated response") I DID feel sedated on Lamictal---I felt all weird--yawning and heavy eyes during the day, but not able to sleep at night.
Now--on to Katia--
What you are describing sounds like bipolar disorder to me. You do things in excess, then later, when you're depressed, you wonder why you did that stuff. It sounds to me like you might be a rapid cycler as well. Judging from your posts, it seems that you do. I'm NOT your doctor. So I won't presume to know what kind of treatment you need. But your doctor seems to be on the right track. Sounds to me like he knows his stuff. Unfortunately, as I am experiencing now, RESPONSES VARY from drug to drug and from person to person!!
I don't know what to say to you since I'm not in the best of spirits right now myself. I do, however believe that there is a drug or combination of drugs that will help you and I. It can take awhile.
Now about the debt. I hate to ask....(if this is a sensitive topic)...but...do you have a good relationship with your family? Do they know what you are going through? Maybe they can help. Just a thought.
Gotta go--my eyes are blurry. I really wish you the best Katia. I haven't lost hope for you yet, so don't you lose hope either! Remember--this is the tough part. And I'm there with you.
Katy
> In response to B-cat:
> >I sure don't think it's the Lam. I've read some medical literature that says it can cause drowsiness, but no real person who has ever taken it has ever complained about it being sedating - just the opposite. - Barbara
>
> Doesn't this just frost you? That's why PsychoBabble is so useful. Most psych docs prescribe based on the product circulars, look at you like crazy if you tell them you've had a different response, and it's damned hard to tell what really to expect from the initial clinical trials.
Posted by katia on September 10, 2003, at 16:12:35
In reply to Re: Official Side-effects, posted by fluffy on September 10, 2003, at 15:32:40
Hi Katy,
Thanks for your supportive words. My family has helped me out too much in the past. I've made a conscious financial break from them no matter how much I'm getting into debt. It's just not fair, one, and two, I need to draw a boundary and when finances are involved, boundaries become unclear.
I do think I'm BP too, but there are so many categories and subtypes and comorbidity, it's hard to tell. My pdoc is not really that interested in hearing about my past; just more what I'm experiencing in the present. I don't understand that. He did ask some questions in the intake. I guess I'm just feeling a little unheard/unseen for all that I am and wonder if he has the full scope of me and my history.
The s/e you describe from Lam. is this new since Li.? Or has it been the whole time?
Hope you too have feeling better soon.
Katia
Posted by fluffy on September 10, 2003, at 16:51:31
In reply to Re: Official Side-effects » fluffy, posted by katia on September 10, 2003, at 16:12:35
Hey Katia--
No--the side effects from Lamictal went away over time. Usually, the side effects would erupt 2 weeks after raising the dose, then settle down after a few days or so. At some point during the titration, the side effects became overwhelming, so we stopped @200mg.
Psychiatrists just don't have the time to understand ALL of you. They speak in terms of symptoms--some of which they observe from what you say in your visits. That's their job--I don't think they mean to be impersonal--they just can't be too emotional. But I do know what you mean. I felt that way when I was first diagnosed. Now I almost like the über clinical setting.
Thanks for the well-wishing, Katia. I'm in a bad mood. I hope you are feeling better soon, too.
Katy
Posted by SUMMER2002 on September 10, 2003, at 22:01:33
In reply to Re: Official Side-effects » fluffy, posted by katia on September 10, 2003, at 16:12:35
Hi Ladies,
Sometimes I feel like I'm eavesdropping on your conversations but it helps. I still question my BP diagnosis to the point my pdoc said fire me - what are you paying me for? This was after I went through two other pdocs. Oh well. He then went on to say I'm not my diagnosis etc etc etc.
Anyway, my point is that I am only on Lamicatal and feel fine for the most part. I'm at 250 mg. I may start welbutrin (spelling?) to help stop smoking - but a little bit nervous about changing anything. I am tired alot but I don't know if it from the lamicatal. I'm still taking flurazapam every night to help sleep. I quit for two nights and had some wild dreams. The second night I woke up crying (sobbing was more like it) from the dream. Pretty odd.
Take care
Patricia
Posted by katia on September 11, 2003, at 0:30:53
In reply to Re: Official Side-effects » katia, posted by SUMMER2002 on September 10, 2003, at 22:01:33
Hi Patricia!
Anyone is welcome, otherwise we'd be emailing each other instead of posting on this board. That's the beauty of this, anyone can jump in at any time.How long have you been on Lamcital? What has your official" dx been?
Why do you question it (besides the obvious reasons of taking care of ourselves)?
thanks for your post!
Katia
Posted by femlite on September 11, 2003, at 7:34:42
In reply to Re: Official Side-effects » katia, posted by SUMMER2002 on September 10, 2003, at 22:01:33
>I still question my BP diagnosis to the point my pdoc said fire me - what are you paying me for? This was after I went through two other pdocs. Oh well. He then went on to say I'm not my diagnosis etc etc etc.Hi Patricia, (Summer is such a pleasant thought!)
What is it about your diagnosis that you question?
Another observation, if you are BP, is it 1 or 2?
from reading and the knowledge Ive gained lurking on this sight, BPs usually reguire more than one med. Usually a mood stabilizer, I think Lamictal could suffice (correct me if I wrong, ya'all).
And next they need an AD. Wellbutrin would fill that bill. Ive had some bad experences with SSRIs.
Too activating, couldnt sleep. But wellbutrin is a little different as it affects dopamine receptors more than serotonin receptors. I too take a sleep aid.Dopamine receptors are responsible for motivation, which I sorely lack.
Wellbutrin is activating, and could help your tiredness during the day
>
> Anyway, my point is that I am only on Lamicatal and feel fine for the most part. I'm at 250 mg. I may start welbutrin (spelling?) to help stop smoking - but a little bit nervous about changing anything. I am tired alot but I don't know if it from the lamicatal. I'm still taking flurazapam every night to help sleep. I quit for two nights and had some wild dreams. The second night I woke up crying (sobbing was more like it) from the dream. Pretty odd.Forgive me for saying this, but you sound kinda discourged. I think thats to be expected if your a BP and are not taking an Anti-deppresant.
I know what you mean about the scarriness of messing with your brain, but you obviously want to feel better, and thats what drives us all to seek help in the first place.
Wellbutrin is a good AD to start with. Give it a month and see what happens. (there will side effects in the first month)
Are you taking a multi vitamin that contains Iron?
I made that mistake a few months ago, and have since learned that too much Iron is worse than to little. One of the effects of Iron toxcity is feeling tired.
Best of luck to ya
Posted by fluffy on September 11, 2003, at 11:42:13
In reply to Re: Official Side-effects » katia, posted by SUMMER2002 on September 10, 2003, at 22:01:33
Hello again Patricia and everyone--
It is so natural to question a BP diagnosis!! Sometimes it is necessary. Do you feel that you fit the DSM definition at all? Have you had a bad reaction to antidepressants in the past? Is there a family history? All of these things helped me to determine that it was indeed true--I am bipolar. SHEESH!! I even hate to say it. It carries quite a stigma. Sounds to me that if you are, you are probably BPII--or just barely above the unipolar of the BP "spectrum".
If the Wellbutrin makes you feel manic or mixed, then bag it--it's not worth it to take a drug to help you quit. For what it's worth, I also quit smoking 6 months ago. I found that once my mood was stabilized, it was easier to quit. So, heck--if the WB works, then HOORAY!!! I just quit cold turkey--I was a raging bitch for 4 days, and was very tempted to start again for the next month, but after that it got a lot easier.
I also found that Lamictal made it almost impossible for me to sleep--esp. at first, and for some reason lately. Maybe it's just the changing of the seasons.
I am feeling much better with the Li today. I'm giving it another week, and who knows--it may be just right. Doctors always want to try the new models and use their patients as guinea pigs. (esp. mine!) But I can see why past BP and present BP people couldn't tolerate Li--it has been uncomfortable!! But the side effects do seem to be fading. As for a jump in the dose--oh!! I'm cringing!! Not another 3 weeks of feeling confused and stupid! I'm a professor and I have to be smarter than my students--it's my job!
My next option is Zyprexa, I think. Since i have "psychotic" depressions w/ rejection sensitivity and negative ruminations, it may be good bet.
Sorry for the ramble--
I hope everyone is well and functional!!Katy
Posted by katia on September 11, 2003, at 13:49:10
In reply to Re: Official Side-effects, posted by fluffy on September 11, 2003, at 11:42:13
Katy and the rest,
What dose did you start at on Lamictal? I'm starting at 5mg tomorrow. Hopefully that won't cause distruptions in my sleep. I'm feeling better, but a little foggy headed sometimes on the Dep. and I always crash in the late afternoon. I've taken to just laying down for an hour and it's helped. But then my energy is up and running again. I agree with the Mediterranean way of living - siesta and late dinners! Glad to hear you're better. What sort of class do you teach?Patricia,
It's been my experience that ADs make me worse. Like Katy said, try the WB and if it doesn't work, "bag it".
I too can give up some of the addictions when I'm feeling centered and well.
Katia
Posted by fluffy on September 11, 2003, at 15:15:05
In reply to Re: Official Side-effects, posted by katia on September 11, 2003, at 13:49:10
Hey Katia--
I didn't know they made Lamictal tabs in 5mg. I started at 25mg. Some people start SUPER SLOW (at 12.5 mg going up in 25mg incriments) until they reach the "therapeutic" dose. These days, most clinicians agree that 200mg is the target dose. Everyone is different, though.
I teach art appreciation. Seems like it would be easy--but it takes a TON of research!
take care,
Katy
Posted by fluffy on September 11, 2003, at 17:49:04
In reply to Re: Official Side-effects » SUMMER2002, posted by femlite on September 11, 2003, at 7:34:42
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 11, 2003, at 18:53:01
In reply to Where's B-cat? (nm), posted by fluffy on September 11, 2003, at 17:49:04
Thanks for asking. Been a little preoccupied lately. I don't know why. I spin wheels alot and don't get much done when I'm neither depressed nor manic yet not quite alright either. The house is slowly cluttering up again, a sure sign that I'm losing my focus. Husband just got a double hernia operation so that should keep me busy being nurse for awhile.
Glad everyone is relatively OK. I empathise with you Katia about how thick headed pdocs can be. You just wish they'd take into account your whole being instead of as a lab experiment. I guess the insurance companies have hobbled alot of well intentioned doctors. Katia, do you qualify for any kind of state aid? Working 2 days a week, you can't be making much over the Federal poverty limit. You might be able to go on SSI or get some kind of state aid or insurance, or at least food stamps. It's worth looking in to. It's so damn hard to heal when the stress of financial worries are looming over you. I know you've said how most of these symptoms came on after starting Dep, but honey, they sure sound physical to me.
Why isn't someone paying more attention to you? All this stuff with your pdoc, the poems, paying, etc. aren't biggies in themselves, but taken together with the way you're feeling, you're not being listened to. You don't have a significant other to give you feedback or help out with anything when you're at the end of your rope. You need to get more, much more, from your care providers. You're paying this pdoc? He's falling down on the job, I'm afraid, and you can damn well tell him I said so. I've been to many and it's the dear souls who really care who notice 'hmmm, maybe this person needs a little more than I'm providing'. Money is always the issue. If you have questions about your dx and how he arrived at his speculations, you should ask. Have you had any mood assessment tests done? Has he ever mentioned the dreaded 'B' dx? No, not BP but BPD? No one wants to look at borderline disorder, but it's real, it's a fact and it's treated differently than BP.
You deserve to be talked to plainly and clearly about what's ailing you. You seem to be a strong-willed, very smart and creative person, but pardon me, a bit of a wimp when it comes to biting this guy on his nuts and not letting go until he jumps to your care. GRRRRR!! Now I'm getting mad, so hang on.
I don't know, Katia, maybe you write here when you're feeling really awful and the rest of the time you're maintaining OK. But if all the time you're riding the rollercoaster, it's just not good for you. It's causing way too much stress. The bottom line of this rant is this: you should (yes, I'm using the should word) you should tell your pdoc that you need much more help and much more quickly and that you need his help to get it. You need to go to some kind of Human Services office and find out about whatever kind of aid they can give you, medication assistance, medical, whatever. Keep on pushing for this. Call United Way, tell them what you're going through and ask them if they can suggest anything.
I'm pissed and you bloody well should be too. I'm also projecting because I've felt like I was totally losing it at times and felt like nobody responded as quickly as I needed, but I have insurance and have the luxury of knowing I can always check myself in somewhere. You don't and so I hope you can make it your mission to find out where you can get some assistance to get the help you deserve.
Maybe you're pretending nice for your pdoc? Maybe you don't let him know how this mad cycling is making you feel horrible because he won't like you? STOP IT!! This is not a personality contest! You're paying him to get better! If you need to talk to him about life issues that you feel are very relevant to your issues today then INSIST he listen to you, and if he doesn't, ask him WHY NOT??? These guys are not Gods, even though they get paid like they were. Jump up and down and tell him YOU FEEL LIKE SHIT AND YOU AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT NO MORE!!!!! Love, B-Cat
Posted by katia on September 11, 2003, at 19:21:05
In reply to I is here, posted by BarbaraCat on September 11, 2003, at 18:53:01
Hi Barb,
Thanks for rooting for me.
But it does sound like you've got the exaggerated take on what I really feel and am experiencing. He actually is doing his job and he does call me back when I call him with concerns or questions.2. Will you be my caregiver???? will you make all those calls and followup calls and follow, follow-up calls for me trying to get help?
I've actually been down that route somewhat and it's so frustrating, which is why I finally chose to go into debt to see this private doc and to live stress(ish) free for awhile. All the stress that goes into getting what little aid there is out there is almost not worth it. I wouldn't even know where to begin. I am being covered with dental and medical (the medical part is a joke however), but have recently qualified to receive low to no cost meds. But that was after way too many phone calls following up with doctors, case workers, pharmacies, etc. etc. I finally just ordered from Canada. If it were easy to 1. find the aid, I would 2. wouldn't take so much out of me to just get poor quality care and service (i.e. last year with all my rounds with psychiatrists at two clinics and rounds with ADs - no thanks).
It's sometimes more difficult than it is worth it. If you know where I could begin to start, let me know (in regards to financial aid). It's also a bit degrading, they normally treat you like shit (in regards to the medical care part I've encountered)
The health care in this country is not good. And what little aid there is is poor quality and you have to wait for eons. You have to make nothing in order to qualify for anything, (like $500) per month. In California that's a joke. So even tho' I make more than $500 a month, and still live going further into debt each month, I don't think I can qualify. The system doesn't work with you to help yourself basically.So I've acutally been fine the past two days. quite good actually and sleeping fine. Thanks for your concern Barbara, but I think you have a slightly off perception of how dire my mood state is.
BTW, I know what you mean about not being productive in limbo land.
Katia
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 11, 2003, at 19:58:02
In reply to I is here, posted by BarbaraCat on September 11, 2003, at 18:53:01
> Jump up and down and tell him YOU FEEL LIKE SH*T AND YOU AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT NO MORE!!!!!
It's great to support fluffy, but please don't use language that could offend others, thanks.
Bob
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 11, 2003, at 21:52:39
In reply to Re: please be civil » BarbaraCat, posted by Dr. Bob on September 11, 2003, at 19:58:02
Thanks, Dr. B. Actually, that was Katia, but I appreciate the sentiment. Offensiveness doesn't help anyone but, but, but, sometimes this whole system gets me really feeling bad and oooohhgg, mad!!!
> > Jump up and down and tell him YOU FEEL LIKE SH*T AND YOU AIN'T GONNA TAKE IT NO MORE!!!!!
>
> It's great to support fluffy, but please don't use language that could offend others, thanks.
>
> Bob
Posted by katia on September 11, 2003, at 22:26:54
In reply to I is here, posted by BarbaraCat on September 11, 2003, at 18:53:01
hey Barb,
I had to run off earlier and didn't get to write everything that I wanted to.
One, I DO appreciate your concern really. And it feels like your last post was not totally about me, as you said some projection going on. AND it seems that you are in a rotten mood tonight?, so please don't take this the wrong way.
I feel absolutely exhausted with how I solely have pulled myself up after where I was a year ago - in a suicidal depression, no insurance, no home, no job, pregnant. I've had to move three times in the midst of all this alone. I feel like I've made great strides with my persistance in this whole med thing and have a lot of courage and endurance/strength to keep going. I've done soooo much work on myself this year, including with medications. It has not been easy in the least to have this persistance esp. when you're feeling so down. I feel I researched different pdocs in the area, everyone was either not taking any new patients or booked two months in advance (including my current one), so i don't have too much choice in finding someone new at the moment especially when he's not doing such a bad job. I feel I do ask all the questions I need to and get responses. So in regards to you last post, "wimp" would not be a term I'd use to describe myself. I just needed to say that that word made me almost react and I realize that you are in a fiery mood and it's not totally about me and that you had my best interest in mind. I still needed to voice that.
Hope you're not feeling too badly in general. And I too get worked up about it all, but have come to a calmness about it all or it will eat me alive.
warmly,
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 12, 2003, at 13:39:39
In reply to Re: I is here » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 11, 2003, at 22:26:54
Hi Katia,
I'm not sure where to post this. It doesn't fit neatly into any of the Babble boards, but here I am and here this is. You are right about all that the other day not being entirely about you, although it was conveyed totally out of care for you. What I was getting from your posts, especially when you were feeling really down and in need, was that you weren't being heard and weren't getting the help that you needed and that you were in alot of pain. I've come to like you very much and care about you and it infuriates me to think that a friend who is in need, who deserves it, is not getting it because 1) they don't insist upon it due to the sense of powerlessness our pain subjects us to; 2) those who could give help don't because they're either overwhelmed due to a mental health HMO system that's a travesty, or; 3) these caregivers are inept and shouldn't be in that business, or; 4) we can't afford the care. It's true that I was concerned about what was happening to you and causing needless suffering for you because of others' neglect. BUT I've also gotten in touch with so much in these past few days and you're right and so am I - most of it is projection. Most of ALL our crap is projection one way or the other.I drank almost every night since the first 'fall' a few nights ago, thinking I could control it, moderate it. I beat myself up, of course, but could not prevent myself from buying those bottles. I finally had a long talk with myself, or rather, that part of myself that is driving this, and SO MUCH emerged, just from the act of being willing to endure the previously unendurable pain and just listen to it. Not to go into the dregs of my life's history, but it's important to do so to explain yours and my interraction, but also because I'm lately finding it important to share some of my story.
I grew up in a very abusive home situation due to my father's extreme and unpredictable bipolar rages. My mother tried to protect, but she was helpless and paralyzed and could only offer furtive comfort when she felt safe to do so. The Catholic school I went to had a few truly sick-o nuns who were terribly abusive as well. In short, I had no one to turn to, no one to listen to my story, no help or protection, and no trust that there was any escape because, of course, I deserved it. How else could a little kid make sense of all this insanity? I was constantly told from the time I was 4-5 years old that I was 'the bad seed', rotten, a no-goodnik, and although I rebelled quite spectacularly, the belief of being a 'bad girl', not deserving help or care, no one listening to me (except those I paid a nice sum to) and being in danger with no place to turn has never left me. The idea of unburdening all of this to my friends or lovers has been unthinkable. Some of it, yes, but not all the deep scary stuff. Most have their own pain and no one can truly know another's and certainly don't want theirs stirred up. I know enough about human nature to know that there's a limit and eventually they would freak and scram. Instead, my shadow stuff has been faced down and suppressed, but is still alive, a unversal dilemma that is not unique to me. Those disowned pieces have been converging lately and I found myself unbearably hurting without even realizing it. There was a layer of coping that was a product of the meds and my own tough resolve and resourcefulness, but it was just a layer.
Your plight that I perceived with you being 'in danger' and not getting help, not being listened to, and neglected because of the perceived inability to pay really hit home and activated all sorts of things, especially in light of the fact that I've been sorting so many things out since my Mom's death in December. Many dreams almost every night to make sense of, memories good and bad, going through old pictures, unpacking boxes she'd put away that I haven't seen since childhood, so many memories that aren't clear, are hazy, like being on the tip of my tongue. There's some abuse issues in there that haven't surfaced yet, but they're on their way.
Alot has been activated with this reconciling the loss of my home, my mom, my childhood things, and memories of how I handled the pain when I was old enough to take control - through drugs and 'feeling better'. I was in alot of pain and needed help and that was the ONLY way available to me and one I could take into my own hands.
The same goes for drinking. After being sober for years, I'm now falling, falling and feel compelled to do so. Why, I've been asking myself, am I hurting so much that I have this need to numb myself and even destroy myself? I finally hunkered down and just sat with the awful feelings that were lurking and that I've been afraid of getting too close to, like they'd subsume me and not let go. The rage, the fear of the little girl, the shame, self-loathing, rebelliousness, the 'bad girl', the dark demonic stuff that needs to be snuffed out. We've all been having some very interesting conversations. It's time these disowned parts of me, although not pretty, were listened to, were helped and protected and not projected. I really don't want to go to a therapist at this stage. The whole messy money/time/business end of it has to be reconciled for me to trust it, and the way I'm going about this seems right. I'm more than up to it, but when I need help to figure it out, I'll get it. Lord knows, with 20 years of therapy under my belt, I think I know the drill by now.
So, dear Katia, you got the brunt of the outrage that I've been surpressing over the neglect of a hurting young girl and woman who desperately needed help, but no one listened. I admire you for sticking to your guns and committing yourself to your wellness and take your word for it that you're not in danger. If you were, I trust that you'll handle it. You're not a helpless 8 year old. You're not me. But, whew, this has been quite a journey, and thanks for lending a hand to hold (and jerk around) during it. - Barbara
Posted by katia on September 12, 2003, at 13:51:11
In reply to Re: Official Side-effects, posted by fluffy on September 11, 2003, at 15:15:05
HI Katy,
Have you or your clinic ever heard of Lithium Orotate? There are some posting on here about it, but nothing I coming from research or "doctors" (not that that ultimately matters). Just wondering what you've heard about it - it could be something for both of us actually.
I asked my pdoc about it and he had never used it or I dont think he's even heard of it. So I don't really want to be his guinea pig. I'd like to hear from other people's doctors.
thanks./
Katia
Posted by katia on September 12, 2003, at 14:59:01
In reply to Thanks, friend » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 12, 2003, at 13:39:39
Hi Barbara,
Thanks for your long post! If we get re-directed somewhere, let's just follow it.>>What I was getting from your posts, especially when you were feeling really down and in need, was that you weren't being heard and weren't getting the help that you needed and that you were in alot of pain.
You got it right, but maybe not to the extent in your previous post. (I'll write more of this below)
>>I've come to like you very much and care about you
Likewise!
>>Most of ALL our crap is projection one way or the other.
I agree and it's not easy to sort out what's what sometimes. You actually pushed one of my buttons that didn't have to do with you in your last post. I feel very very stuck right now and I'm trying to have patience knowing this is a slow process. I feel like i have tried my hardest to get the best help and it's dawning on me that maybe I'm not getting the best help. My hands feel tied, I'm frustrated and exhausted.
I'm going thru' a lot too in regards to days when the medication actually seems to work, that's scary too because I'm left looking at the rubble from the fallout with no real life - no career, no boyfriend, no REAL social life. Those are actually scarier days for me now! I've been reading "Bipolar Survival Guide". it doesn't mention anything about this period of finally getting well. It asks to check what traits we think are our "personality" and what traits we feel are manic/depressive, I don't know WHO I am. I feel like I'm ten years old again and have to redevelop into a totally new person. A person I might have been if I hadn't endured all these mood swings for so many years. I look back and all I remember was either a tornado in my head or agonizing molasses.
I feel stuck because I want to make a move (step out into life) b/c I've had two good days, but then I fall down again and realize I'm not ready. So this is an agonzing process that I'm enduring more or less alone. (apart from a couple of good friends - who as you say, still can't get the extent of the suffering and pain of my experience).
All that crap with the pdoc - crush, poem, etc. doesn't and DOES have to do with him. I'm trying to work that one out in therapy (my therapist is a woman - thank god). I think I was slightly disappointed with him and with the amount he charges (is not equivalent to the service) so to distract myself from feeling like I am yet again in a frustrating and financially draining situation, I think subconsciously I made up this crush. and it worked. But you actually woke me up yesterday with that post to feelings I was already feeling; like disappointment with him. And it really feels like I should just stay with him because how much of that disappointment is based on my own idealization of him? So I'm trying to work out what's what. ANY Pdoc can only do so much.
My take is that he doesn't have time to get caught up in the discussions about transference or anything other than medications and symptoms. and that makes me feel unseen and unheard - I think part of it is my issues and not necessarily a reflection about his services. (I had to wait two months to get into to see him - hes' overworked I think). and I pay out of pocket, he's not part of an HMO.But on top of already what's mine, I think are valid concerns I have are, I suggest treatment plans. I mentioned that Lithium has been studied to anti-aging effects on the brain. he hadn't heard of that. he hadn't heard of Li. Orotate, but yet was willing to try me as a guniea pig. that didn't feel good to hear yesterday.
So Barb, you stirred up my stuff too! but that's ok, I needed to wake up to what I was really feeling. But even that changes per minute! I don't know what is real or what is my ever changing perception.
> I drank almost every night since the first 'fall' a few nights ago, thinking I could control it, moderate it. I beat myself up, of course, but could not prevent myself from buying those bottles.Do you mean, you've drunk every night since Labor day w-end when we both had a big night?
If so, don't beat yourself up!!!! The last thing your poor body and soul needs is guilt on top of that. And I'm sure you know all about guilt! I grew up Catholic too!>>I'm lately finding it important to share some of my story.
I'm glad you did share some of it. I'm open to hearing more of it. and I too, can relate to that feeling of having no where to go for safety. I think that's what my "crush" was about. It made it safe. I didn't have to feel frustation and so forth with him. I too have experienced that frantic panic of no where to run.
It ain't easy being human!
Keep writing Barb!
Hugs,
Katia
Posted by fluffy on September 13, 2003, at 11:29:30
In reply to Thanks, friend » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 12, 2003, at 13:39:39
Hi Barb-cat--
You sound like you're not doing so great. (duhhh!). And that concerns me, as someone in your (online) support group. And I DO consider this a support group!! You've been a great help to me here. I don't think I would have found the patience to stick with Lithium had you not given me so much support and information. And guess what--I'm feeling so much better.
Now about the pain you're feeling. I can certainly relate to that. I, too had an abusive father (physically, emotionally). And I, too feel that it was due to bipolar rages now. It took me some time to forgive him and now I actually empathize with him. Something I thought not possible. But I have to wonder, Barb-cat--Is this something that you dwell on when you are depressed/mixed? I don't want to make light of the pain you are feeling. But for me, there are triggers--some of which I can't discern when I'm feeling them. But later when I'm feeling well, I can see that there is a subject that always comes up when I'm heading for an episode, or already in the midst of one.
Also--the alchohol use. You know what the deal is with that. You're self medicating.
Why don't you call your doctor and tell him what's going down? I don't want you to take offense to any of this or feel that I'm patronizing you. I just care about your well being. And I can sense you are in a downward spiral. Maybe feeling fully depressed or mixed. Please get help, Barb-cat.
Your friend,
Katy
Posted by katia on September 13, 2003, at 12:04:25
In reply to Re: Thanks, friend, posted by fluffy on September 13, 2003, at 11:29:30
Hi,
I'm actually not doing so well either. God, I hate being this fragile and sensitive and RAGEFUL too.
I had something hurtful happen to me last night, and I still haven't stopped crying from it! I feel scared of myself and what Ifeel. and I'm so tired of feeling this way. two days up two days down. I think I might start the Lam. today. And what's the point of continuing to call the pdoc? What can he do? Can he take away the pain? can he get me thru' this? What else can he do? Why am I suppose to be here? It doesn't make sense. This is toooo hard. I can barely hang on. What's this about? Why is this so hard? I want to go away somewhere and be a new person!
chaos and agony/suffering!!!
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 13, 2003, at 14:46:24
In reply to Lithium Orotate » fluffy, posted by katia on September 12, 2003, at 13:51:11
First of all, thanks Katia and Katy. I'll write more on all the recent stuff later. I'm doing much better, got in touch with alot of old pain. Not that that makes things magically better, but it helps with the self disgust part (I really OUGHT to be over this. I really SHOULD get my act together, blah blah).
But anyway, on to the Lithium Orotate question. I tried it last year and before going into the why of why it didn't work, my humble opinion is that it don't work!
I too saw many of the very intriguing ads, and hoping to minimize the side effects of lithium (primarily thyroid related), I wanted to believe that much less was needed due to the more efficient orotic acid transporter.
I ordered a couple bottles for $30 a pop thinking to give it a try. In the meantime, my pharmacy mail order for lithium got lost, needed authorization and I ended out of lithium for almost 2 weeks. I started to get definitely hypomanic. At first, it was just more energy, more of a sense of urgency, plans whizzing through my head. I decided to totally re-landscape our yard and went out and bought literally palletts of plants, all kinds of gardening tools and clothing, books, landscaping software. Having a great old time spending lots of money we didn't have and making plans and then getting home and not having one whit of interest in the un-fun part, like unloading the plants, watering them, digging the holes, until they withered.
My husband pointed out to me that I was seeming a trifle scattered and I thought, slapping my forehead, Ah yes! No lithium! That very day, my shipment of Lithium Orotate arrived that I had recently ordered and I was convinced in true BP fasion that this was surely a sign from God. So I took it faithfully and got worse and worse. Even once my prescription arrived I held off, thinking that I had to give Li Orotate a fair chance. I even doubled it and kept getting worse. By 2 weeks later, I was in full blown mixed states depression, sobbing every time I passed by those pathetic plants. So I went back to good old Lithium carbonate and within 1 week I was back to 'normal'.
There's alot to argue here, like maybe I should've started taking it when I was stable first instead of already heading into a mania, or maybe I should've given it some more time, or maybe it really was the Li Orotate kicking in around the same time I restarted my old prescription. But I really don't think so. I think it just doesn't work the way they say it does, especially for people with BP illness. Perhaps it's good for the neuro protective qualities for people without BP, but not for us.
There have been some recent posts on this topic about two months ago. Try doing a search on it. Some babblers well versed in the biochemistry of it gave it a thumbs down. Thanks to you for caring about me. We live very interesting lives. - Barbara
> Have you or your clinic ever heard of Lithium Orotate? There are some posting on here about it, but nothing I coming from research or "doctors" (not that that ultimately matters). Just wondering what you've heard about it - it could be something for both of us actually.
> I asked my pdoc about it and he had never used it or I dont think he's even heard of it. So I don't really want to be his guinea pig. I'd like to hear from other people's doctors.
> thanks./
> Katia
Posted by fluffy on September 13, 2003, at 15:05:33
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate, posted by BarbaraCat on September 13, 2003, at 14:46:24
Hi Barbara--
You seem better today. I was worried about you. I have been, well, kinda all over the place. I had a very wierd first two weeks on Li. It did NOT have the calming effect I was expecting. In fact, I became very hypomanic and mentally confused. It seems to have calmed down. The past couple of days, I've felt I have the personality of a rock. Today is better. But what the hell??!! The most troublesome side effect I'm having that seems to be lasting is bruxism (or teeth clenching). It happens almost all day, every day--my jaw hurts really bad! Supposedly, this is related to seratonin blockage? Or something seratonin related. Does Li have much to do with Seratonin? Do you know anything about this? My doc did NOT seem pleased by the Li results!! And I can't say for certain I'm pleased yet either. My memory is better, though. My sleep has not improved yet.
If you or anyone else knows about the bruxism part, i'd like to know.
Thanks,
Katy
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 13, 2003, at 15:59:56
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate, posted by BarbaraCat on September 13, 2003, at 14:46:24
> But anyway, on to the Lithium Orotate question...
I'd like to redirect that aspect of this thread to the new Psycho-Babble Alternative board. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/259704.html
Bob
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.