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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Budgie on September 26, 2003, at 1:08:46
Hey everyone,
I'm kind of at the end of my rope right now after two bad days. Considering how great a med P. has been for me, how it's helped me feel alive again over the past two months- well, I'm that much more frustrated with this whole insomnia thing. It takes me forever to fall asleep, and I'm averaging only about four hours per night. It hasn't been that much of a problem for the first few days, as the stimulant properties keep me going during the day, but by the fourth or fifth night- it's not funny anymore.
The sleep deprivation is really taking a toll on me. Yesterday and especially today I've been really depressed and tense, which is scary as I start worrying that it's all going to go downhill unless I find an insomnia remedy soon. I worry about losing the tremendous gains I've made emotionally. And I hate being relegated to the couch at night so I don't disturb my fiancee. And my body just *hurts* with tension that I can't seem to relieve from head to toe. My Qi is blocked, if you can relate.
Are my NE neurons just firing like there's no tomorrow?
I don't see my pdoc until Tuesday, when he will prescribe me a proper sleep med or I pick him up by his shirt collar and glare into his eyes like a true madman.
Any advice in the meantime? Long-termers: Is this one of those SEs that will eventually go away? WSJ: If you do try this, be sure to get a sleep med at the beginning. Don't wait two months like I have.
Thanks for listening, folks.
Budgie
Posted by cubbybear on September 26, 2003, at 4:12:15
In reply to Parnate People, please help., posted by Budgie on September 26, 2003, at 1:08:46
I'm really sorry you're having such a rough time with the sleep problems. It almost sounds as if your worrying about it is contributing to your depression or the insomnia itself, which creates a vicious cycle. The way I've come to look at Parnate's stimulating qualities, it's not so much that it creates insomnia but it simply reduces the need for sleep. Maybe I'm just playing with words. . .but if you're willing to go the benzo route like I did, then Klonopin might be your solution. I know nothing about the non-benzo hypnotics and am not sure if they can be used with Parnate, but Klonopin sure can. It's cheap in generic form and might be a solution for you.
Posted by mattdds on September 26, 2003, at 6:42:51
In reply to Parnate People, please help., posted by Budgie on September 26, 2003, at 1:08:46
Chris,
This reminds me of when I had extreme insomnia for over a year when I was at my worst point. I would get so worried about the effects the insomnia would have (e.g. fail out of school, go crazy, etc.). None of those things ever happened. Insomnia sucks, subjectively, but it won't likely make your performance noticibly worse, from an objective standpoint.
I know how "crazy" insomnia can make you feel, but I think Cubbybear may be right in saying that worrying about the insomnia could be contributing to your problem. This may be something to work out with CBT. You see, you have two problems. First the insomnia, and second the worrying about the insomnia. These two can create a viscious cycle. Did you have sleep probs before the Parnate?
I would *really* try to bag some Ambien. I've already told you all the advantages of it. Back when I was not sleeping, this drug was like a miracle. It was like hitting an "off" switch in my brain.
Ambien is kind of humorous, to me. It has such an abrupt, forceful onset that it just takes you under by brute force! My dad takes it too, and he describes the sensation of his Ambien "kick-in" by saying, "When the Ambien train cometh through, it leaveth no passengers behind".
And don't sweat the "hallucinations", for real. Like I said before, I HATED LSD and pot...way too intense! But this is nothing like that in any way. I usually get in a really funny, giddy mood for the 5 minutes before the Ambien Train rolls in to take me away. I really enjoy it, strange as it may sound. My wife always comments on how witty and funny I get just before getting taken under by it.
My only hope is that your doc will friggin' prescribe it! I'm quite sure it will work.
I hope you feel better!
Matt
Posted by wsj on September 26, 2003, at 16:04:41
In reply to Parnate People, please help., posted by Budgie on September 26, 2003, at 1:08:46
thanks for the advice budgie! i hope you get some satisfactory sleep soon. i've used both klonopin & ambien in the past for sleep. both work good for me.
good luck
wsj
Posted by Budgie on September 27, 2003, at 10:46:31
In reply to Re: Parnate People, please help. » Budgie, posted by mattdds on September 26, 2003, at 6:42:51
Thanks for the advice & sympathy, all.
I'm feeling much better now after two proper nights' rest (although it still took me a while to fall asleep both nights). I've also laid off the caffeine the past two days, which I think is key. A little sleep deprivation just makes that big cup of Starbucks all the more appealing, and if I've learned anything from my long-time love-hate relationship with coffee, it's that the stuff can seriously contribute to my emotional problems if I'm not careful. I just think I over-stimulated myself (my poor kidneys :( ), which just made getting the proper, needed rest that much harder. It's a vicious cycle.
I'm going to get some Ambien no matter what, and I'm still keeping in mind the Klonopin route, if I still feel I need something else (and can convince my doc). How would you approach insomnia with CBT, Matt? I don't know how much detail you feel like going into, but I'd be interested.
Thanks again guys,
Chris
Posted by mattdds on September 27, 2003, at 15:11:12
In reply to Feeling much, much better, posted by Budgie on September 27, 2003, at 10:46:31
Hey Chris,
Glad to hear you're feeling better, and could get some sleep.
CBT probably will only indirectly affect your sleep. You would work on catastrophic beliefs about sleep (e.g. "I'll never be able to function on no sleep", or "I'm going crazy!", or "I SHOULD be sleeping by now"). It would help break the cycle of anticipatory anxiety about sleep.
It would not have any direct hypnotic effects, like Ambien would, but could help.
When I was having a difficult time sleeping, my fears that my life would fall apart if I didn't sleep, and that I would never sleep again never materialized. I did feel tired and agitated, but I did fine. Studies have shown that lack of sleep does not really have as much effect on performance as once believed. There is a good book called "No More Sleepless Nights", which dispels a lot of the myths about sleeping. It was a worthwhile read for me. It's kinda anti-hypnotic though, I think. If you can adhere to the program in that book, it really does work though.
However with your situation (taking Parnate), I'm not sure that anything short of a drug intervention would work. Did you have trouble sleeping before Parnate?
About coffee / caffeine. Klonopin really blunts the negative effects of caffeine for me, while leaving the positive ones preserved. If really helped my relationship with caffeine, as you put it.
I hope you can get some good sleep, it makes college a lot funner.
Best,
Matt
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