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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 625 to 649 of 948. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 15, 2003, at 19:18:03
In reply to Arvo Part and story 4 Katy, Katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 14, 2003, at 19:05:59
> Katia, do you have a particular Arvo Part to recommend? Amazon has 137 hits for him!! The reviewers all seem to love his music.
>
> Ladies, I surely can relate with the upheavals you're going through...Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect the discussion that doesn't have to do with medication to Psycho-Social-Babble. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20030913/msgs/260402.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by 2lisa on September 22, 2003, at 22:51:49
In reply to Sean/andrewb and Susan. Hints for your down days!, posted by Cynthia on August 8, 1999, at 23:35:52
I have been looking for Dexedrine Spansule to purchase. Does anyone have a good website to buy this product. I have looked over the internet but I get alot of warnings and other stuff but no where to purchase this item. Can someone please reply to this at xxx
thanks
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 22, 2003, at 23:18:35
In reply to Re: Sean/andrewb and Susan. Hints for your down days! » Cynthia, posted by 2lisa on September 22, 2003, at 22:51:49
> I have been looking for Dexedrine Spansule to purchase. Does anyone have a good website to buy this product.
Just a reminder, please don't use this site to exchange information that could be used to import into the US prescription medication without a prescription:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#illegal
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by ktykat91582 on September 23, 2003, at 17:26:03
In reply to for barbaracat.......lexapro and depakote » BarbaraCat, posted by joebob on July 15, 2003, at 13:23:08
i have been seeing the psydoc for over a year now and she finally told me she thinks i am either A. Bipolar or B. cyclothymia. can someone please tell me in understandable terms about these conditions...she has put me on buspirone and lexapro..will these help me?..ive been on buspirone for 1 month now and i see no change..i feel like im getting worse...i feel like theres no point in life one minute but im exstatic about my life the next.i feel like im losing my mind and watching myslef go down the drain....i have 2 babies i need to think about and i really need some help and info on these conditions....hell i might just need someone to talk to about it.....but if anyone knows how i feel and thinks they can help me please reply to me....my e-mail is ktykat91582@aol.com..thanks
Posted by JaneB on September 23, 2003, at 19:13:59
In reply to can someone please help me!!!, posted by ktykat91582 on September 23, 2003, at 17:26:03
> i have been seeing the psydoc for over a year now and she finally told me she thinks i am either A. Bipolar or B. cyclothymia. can someone please tell me in understandable terms about these conditions...she has put me on buspirone and lexapro..will these help me?..ive been on buspirone for 1 month now and i see no change..i feel like im getting worse...i feel like theres no point in life one minute but im exstatic about my life the next.i feel like im losing my mind and watching myslef go down the drain....i have 2 babies i need to think about and i really need some help and info on these conditions....hell i might just need someone to talk to about it.....but if anyone knows how i feel and thinks they can help me please reply to me....my e-mail is ktykat91582@aol.com..thanks
Could you give me a little more info. I am a grandma with 18 grandchildren and daughters who love being moms but one has need of an antidepressant. I have researched a lot and been helped by this board for 5 years. 1st question: Is Lexapro the first antidepressant you have tried?
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 23, 2003, at 22:47:15
In reply to can someone please help me!!!, posted by ktykat91582 on September 23, 2003, at 17:26:03
So sorry you're having these awful feelings. I'm bipolar and it's no picnic, but with the right meds life can be great. As you probably know, bipolar generally means a condition that is cyclic, going through the range of very high energy, impulsiveness, sometimes rage and irritability, spending sprees, not needing sleep, starting grand projects and not finishing them - that's the usual take on the manic side. The depression is the opposite, no energy, dreary, sleep alot, dead feeling, no interest in anything, feelings of worthlessness. Bipolar disorder has different levels of severity, from all out total disruption of life to moderate symptoms. The determining factor is that it is an alternating and cyclic pattern and the cycles last at least 2-3 weeks, sometimes for months, as mine did. Cyclothymia is similar to bipolar, but much less intense and cycling rapidly, sometimes up and down in the same day. The highs never reach the disordered frenzy that one sees in the severe bipolar manic phase and the lows are not as devastating, but the rapid cycling can be terribly frightening and exhausting.
Before I go into the next part and possibly alarm you, please know that you may indeed have a depressive disorder and your doctor is on the right track. Also, if what follows feels true for you, you shouldn't stop what you're taking or be afraid that you're being harmed by your meds. But you do need to act quickly with determination. Definitely do a web search on bipolar+antidepressants to understand how problematic this combination is, or on cyclothymia to arm yourself with more knowledge before seeing your psydoc. Take this post in if you want. So...
If you are bipolar, meds like Lexapro are among the worst you can be taking and it's no wonder you're not feeling better, and if anything, worse. Anything that is an SSRI, like Paxil, Prozac, Zoloft, Lexapro, has been shown to make bipolar disorder worse. Buspirone, or Wellbutrin, works on different neurotransmitters and has sometimes been used successfully, but it can be very activating without a mood stabilizer and can bring on a manic episode. In any event, this combination for a bipolar can be extremely destablizing. If your condition is in the bipolar family, it's no wonder you feel like you're climbing the walls.
I can speak from experience with this, having been diagnosed with major depressive disorder and put on every antidepressant out there. They worked at first and then stopped working and my doctor would then say 'Oh, guess you need a higher dose, or let's combine it with this different one'. I suffered unimaginably for 20 years before realizing my symptoms were bipolar, although not the classic highs/lows usually easily recognizable as bipolar. Mine were more like the opposite ends were converging into one disorder, a very agitated depression that is called bipolar mixed states.
If you have cyclothymia, you're still subject to becoming destable and swinging into the cycles by an activating medication, but not as severely. Antidepressants may be used, but only as an adjunct with primarily a mood stabilizer, such as lithium, depakote, tegretol, lamictal. I personally take lithium and lamictal which has worked beautifully for longer than other any med regimen. But there's no telling just what med is going to do the trick. Depakote has had good success with cyclothymia, but it really is trial and error. However, there is a group of meds that are indicated for these conditions and SSRI's are definitely not among them.
You really need to pursue this and if your doctor is not knowledgable about the dangers of medicating bipolar symptoms with antidepressants, I very strongly encourage you to find someone else. This is a very hot topic in the psychiatric world and I would hope she has some eventual strategy with this puzzling choice of meds rather than simply being out of the loop.
There's a book that has been extremely helpful for many of us on this board to determine if what we were experiencing was really bipolar related, and what kinds of medication should and should not be used. You can just click on the link and it will take you to Amazom.com where you can order it. Good luck and don't settle for inadequate treatment when there's definite hope for the way you're feeling. Feel free to keep in touch if you have any question. - BarbaraCat
"Why your depression isn't getting better"
> i have been seeing the psydoc for over a year now and she finally told me she thinks i am either A. Bipolar or B. cyclothymia. can someone please tell me in understandable terms about these conditions...she has put me on buspirone and lexapro..will these help me
Posted by JaneB on September 24, 2003, at 7:18:02
In reply to Re: can someone please help me!!! » ktykat91582, posted by BarbaraCat on September 23, 2003, at 22:47:15
Posted by Ponder on September 27, 2003, at 17:36:31
In reply to Re: can someone please help me!!! » ktykat91582, posted by BarbaraCat on September 23, 2003, at 22:47:15
Barbara,
Is it your position that SSRIs should be avoided altogether in bipolar patients, even if there is a stabilizer on board?
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 27, 2003, at 20:57:39
In reply to Bipolar and SSRIs » BarbaraCat, posted by Ponder on September 27, 2003, at 17:36:31
> Is it your position that SSRIs should be avoided altogether in bipolar patients, even if there is a stabilizer on board?
***Some people say that, but I think it's on a personal need basis. I was helped alot by Nortriptyline early this year and even tho' it's not an SSRI, it still acts similarly. There are a number of folks on this board who take ADs and mood stabilizers successfully. It's hard to keep track of dx's, but it seems that a good percentage of them are BP. My opinion from what I've read and personally is that one probably should take a mood stabilizer when on an SSRI whether they're BP or not.
I wonder what things would have been like if I'd added lithium to my zoloft all those years ago. My pdoc at the time kept trying to convince me, more for it's augmenting properties to prevent my meds from pooping out than for suspected BP. I recoiled in horror at the mention of lithium - that's for crazy folks and I was just severely depressed! Silly me. I might have gone happily along with the combo as others have done instead of ending up in the psych unit and one mixed state after another followed from there. The lack of mood stabilizer probably destabilized me into a more severe BP condition than I would have had otherwise.
I don't know why a TCA would work so differently from an SSRI-type med, but it does for me. I was taking Remeron for a few months as I was ramping up with lithium and Lamictal. I still felt very mixed statey, on the edge of doom all the time. It wasn't until I jettisoned the Rem that I started feeling OK. This was on the recommendation of another babbler who had gone through a similar experience. I can't take SSRI's any longer, even tho' they worked pretty well for awhile. I also wonder about Wellbutrin since it's not an SSRI.
If you haven't gone to this website, by all means do so. It has tons of information in it and one article goes thoroughly into ADs and bipolar. You may need to navigate to 'Home' to get the intro page:
http://www.psycheducation.org/depression/frameset.html
Posted by Cybele on October 9, 2003, at 13:59:53
In reply to Re: can someone please help me!!! » ktykat91582, posted by BarbaraCat on September 23, 2003, at 22:47:15
Your post was very useful to me, BarbaraCat. Thanks! I just started posting here, altho I've lurked here off and on. I am 42 and have been dx with dysthymia with atypical depressions starting around age 13, but 'dysthymia' never seemed to quite fit me. I go through long periods of feeling fine--years--then a depression will creep on, the prime symptoms of which are difficulty concentrating, agoraphobia, fatigue, and cooking/baking and eating too much. SSRIs screw me up something awful (very little REM sleep, I think), but Wellbutrin seemed to work fine when I took it 9 years ago. I'm now thinking that it wasn't so much the Wellbutrin working well as going off the Paxil, which triggered a fantastic hypomanic episode that essentially allowed me to get my life back on track.
I've been 'depressed' all summer after years without a depression (pregnancy and breastfeeding seemed to keep it away). My current doctor (I just moved to a new state) wants to explore the idea that I might be bipolar, so I am reading up on BP-II and mixed states. I just started Wellbutrin, and if I'm not better in a month she wants to add a mood stabilizer. I'll give it a try, as long as it is one that will help me pass up the buttered scones and lemon bars and lose some of this weight I gained over the summer!
Posted by KathyMall on November 8, 2003, at 23:05:42
In reply to Re: rapid cycling and mind noise, posted by sparkinark on September 26, 2002, at 12:10:44
Ive recently had some of these symptoms and it was terrifying for me.
It started around when i was 7 when i was laying on the couch and all of the sudden everything i heard was loud but i was the only one who could hear that everything was loud and also everything was fast to my eyes. It stopped for atleast 6 years and then it came back when i was sick because of a flu. It was in the middle of the night and i just woked up and i experienced everything i did when i was 7. But this time i could actually descibe it abit more. Every sound i heard, breathing, the wind, people talking seemed louder but only to me. My mind felt like it was racing and i felt different but i didnt know what it felt like. Anything that i saw moving like when im walking or running it would look like im going 2 times faster. It only lasted for like 2mins or as long as 10mins. It happened again 2 nights in a row. But then it stopped. It came back 6 months later when i got a cough.This would only happen in the middle of the night when im sleeping and it would wake me up. The only ways i could make it go away was to talk to someone or turn on the radio and listen.Please if you have experience this please contact me.
Posted by moosehaps on November 11, 2003, at 16:49:37
In reply to Re: Lithium Orotate, posted by BarbaraCat on September 13, 2003, at 14:46:24
Hello, I'm new to the board. Read a post of yours from October 22, 2002, while doing a search on hair loss! Became sidetracked from worrying about locks upon reading of your dread of passing the lobster tanks in the grocery store. I didn't know anyone else had a difficult time with this sort of thing. I've learned that when my already too attuned awareness of suffering and possible cruelty to animals, especially, is beginning to peak and torment me that a mega black emotional episode approacheth. Actually, I would welcome something that could numb me enough, short of dying, that is, that could diminish the sadness haunting my life over the plight of animals. Have 6 dogs and 1 cat, my children. Thanks to your post, I have a beginner's grasp of what a "mixed state" is. I've seldom, except on speed briefly 30 years ago, experienced anything like the euphoria commonly associated with bipolar, but what you talk about definitely sounds like my experience. Hope you and yours are happy and well, apologies for referencing comments so ancient you probably have moved on and forgotten them!
Kind regards and hope this isn't too much of a downer.
Posted by katia on November 11, 2003, at 17:30:24
In reply to Hypersensitivity to suffering » BarbaraCat, posted by moosehaps on November 11, 2003, at 16:49:37
HI,
I can definitely relate to the hypersensitivity with animals. I go crazy when I see animals suffer. I hate it. I even sense that animals are suffering when their owners don't take good care of them; like walking them everyday and not giving them enough attention and cuddles. That even drives me CRAZY. Sometimes, I'll go to extraordinary lengths to help an animal. and on the reverse, sometimes I have to stay in oblivion about it, otherwise I'd go mad.
I guess you could say it's related to my mood. It sometimes happens with people too, but rarer.
cheerio-
katia
Posted by moosehaps on November 11, 2003, at 19:53:41
In reply to Re: Hypersensitivity to suffering, posted by katia on November 11, 2003, at 17:30:24
katia,
I am grateful you shared your tender feelings for animals in response to my post. Do you think there's something wrong with us, I mean besides depression, that we can't stop noticing suffering? I sometimes have to ask myself, why can't I just get a grip and live with reality the way it is? I wonder if "stable" on meds equates with an ability to accept life on its own (screwed) terms. It's horrible to feel others' pain and know there's little you can do to change it. I'm not really feeling as bleak as this must read at the moment, just reporting on my typical emotional scenario. Love to you and all furry, finned or feathered loved ones. Will write perkier messages soon, I promise.
Posted by katia on November 11, 2003, at 22:04:32
In reply to Re: Hypersensitivity to suffering » katia, posted by moosehaps on November 11, 2003, at 19:53:41
Something that has occurred to me over the years, is that this empathy that I feel for animals when suffering and how affected I am by it probably is somewhat of a projection - a reflection for how I'm suffering. It's a way of comforting that aspect in ourselves that we somehow don't do directly or acknowledge. in other words, I don't always have compassion for myself.
I once was crying to my therapist about how lonely these poor little doggies must be and how I can't stand it! She asked me if I was lonely. And yes I was. I think it's (in some part) a reflection of how we're feeling inside projected onto animals.
that's my take on it. Not to mention, some people are just more sensitive than others. and sensitivity's a wonderful thing.
take care,
katia
Posted by moosehaps on November 11, 2003, at 22:51:01
In reply to Re: Hypersensitivity to suffering » moosehaps, posted by katia on November 11, 2003, at 22:04:32
katia,
I think I can take a cue from your insights and see what I can learn about myself the next time the animal blues hit. Maybe there's important information part of me is trying to communicate to the denser, everyday me that must, I guess, be very comfortable with being dense! Too soon to tell, but will report progress or lack of same. Your comments are very appreciated, thank you for replying.
Posted by katia on November 11, 2003, at 23:59:52
In reply to Re: Hypersensitivity to suffering » katia, posted by moosehaps on November 11, 2003, at 22:51:01
Sure, no problem. Just recently, I broke down crying and had all this compassion for myself enter me. I just sat with it for over an hour crying and being present with that intensity. It was really an amazing experience that I can't put into words, but felt so wonderful and relieving. It wasn't a pity thing. I want to take this as good sign that I'm improving because you know when you're in the thick of suffering and trying to just make it thru' the day the warrior aspect kicks in for me and I don't have it in me to have that compassion for myself or I'll crumble.
food for thought!
take care-
Posted by pixygoth on November 12, 2003, at 7:58:31
In reply to Re: Hypersensitivity to suffering » moosehaps, posted by katia on November 11, 2003, at 23:59:52
Oh you lovely people, it would be so good if the world could just stop being horrible to everything possible, and then you wouldn't have to feel so bad, about this anyway. I hope y' get better, but of course you won't lose your compassion - that will stick with you as what will turn out to be a great gift. It's hard to see "toomuch" compassion as a good thing, but maybe we can help to balance out the lack of it in others.
love and hugs
S
Posted by moosehaps on November 12, 2003, at 14:05:51
In reply to Re: Hypersensitivity to suffering, posted by pixygoth on November 12, 2003, at 7:58:31
Dear babblers of wise things,
Somehow, contemplation of your comments has shined a light for me into a dark direction I hadn't thought to begin: myself. I came upon a definition of humility that includes, "a perpetual quietness of heart," and to be "in a deep sea of calmness, when all around is seeming trouble." That's kind
of the direction my sails are set now, I think.
My perceptions are no doubt skewed without the above as a foundation.pxygoth - you speak as one whose meds have kicked in nicely, owing to the tone of optimism and support your post reflects! Hope this is truly for the case for you, and thank you for taking the time to post such kind words.
katia - ditto above, and if you have a little time, whenever, could you elaborate on where I might learn more about this warrior aspect, and how to restrain her when "battle stance" is not the appropriate response to our healing selves?
Prospect of crumbling - also not good.For what it's worth, have been on 75mg. Wellbutrin for about 2 weeks and do feel better, but wonder if my poor, fine hair will begin to leave me at some point.
Kind regards to all who read this.
Posted by katia on November 12, 2003, at 14:50:09
In reply to Re: Hypersensitivity to suffering- katia, » pixygoth, posted by moosehaps on November 12, 2003, at 14:05:51
Hi Moosehaps! (love the name, where did you think of it??)
Great foundation you're building.as far as what you asked in the below.....I just think it's an individual awareness of what fuels us and hinders us and blah blah blah. All I can say is that to each her own. This aspect of myself took me years to figure out as with everything else including finally getting treatment and a proper diagnosis after years of living in the dark. I'm finally coming to some light. Therapy, self-inquiry, meditation, medication, the usual route to self-discovery....good luck in your own endeavors!
be well,
Katia>>a little time, whenever, could you elaborate on where I might learn more about this warrior aspect, and how to restrain her when "battle stance" is not the appropriate response to our healing selves?
> Prospect of crumbling - also not good.
>
> For what it's worth, have been on 75mg. Wellbutrin for about 2 weeks and do feel better, but wonder if my poor, fine hair will begin to leave me at some point.
>
> Kind regards to all who read this.
>
Posted by moosehaps on November 12, 2003, at 17:36:29
In reply to Re: Hypersensitivity to suffering- katia, » moosehaps, posted by katia on November 12, 2003, at 14:50:09
katia,
moosehaps occurred to me when I read about an unfortunate mishap (non-lethal) involving a moose and a vehicle at a road crossing. Incidentally, have we not a single "Brooke" or "Brook" babbling on this board?!As the light of day grows shorter, I'm going to be retiring to the shadows (which sounds more glamorous than "hanging all day without getting dressed" because I'm thinking deep thoughts) for some very overdue introspection and consideration of ideas gleaned from you, pixygoth and the many thoughtful contributors on this board.
Have you ever read about a mythic character named Ereshkigal, who inflicted some very serious PMDD acting out onto those around her, until she decided to really take a look at herself? She had to go underground, (to hell, you might say), physically and psychologically, before she could recognize her own hand in her troubles. I must do as E.
I sense your strength of purpose in how you're undertaking to make a new life for yourself, and am similarly inspired to get busy reconstructing my own.
I will keep you and all who babble here in my heart.
Posted by katia on November 12, 2003, at 18:07:52
In reply to Re: Hypersensitivity to suffering- katia, » katia, posted by moosehaps on November 12, 2003, at 17:36:29
> katia,
> moosehaps occurred to me when I read about an unfortunate mishap (non-lethal) involving a moose and a vehicle at a road crossing. Incidentally, have we not a single "Brooke" or "Brook" babbling on this board?!
>
> As the light of day grows shorter, I'm going to be retiring to the shadows (which sounds more glamorous than "hanging all day without getting dressed" because I'm thinking deep thoughts) for some very overdue introspection and consideration of ideas gleaned from you, pixygoth and the many thoughtful contributors on this board.
>
> Have you ever read about a mythic character named Ereshkigal, who inflicted some very serious PMDD acting out onto those around her, until she decided to really take a look at herself? She had to go underground, (to hell, you might say), physically and psychologically, before she could recognize her own hand in her troubles. I must do as E.
>
> I sense your strength of purpose in how you're undertaking to make a new life for yourself, and am similarly inspired to get busy reconstructing my own.
>
> I will keep you and all who babble here in my heart.** You write so poetically. I do love the name Moosehaps. It makes me think of blundering sweet Moose who has good intentions, but always seems to get himself in trouble. Hmmmm an idea for a children's story. I wonder if you mind if I use it? I"m taking a children's story writing course. Babbling Brooke is a good name for this board. I haven't heard of that Ereshkigal character, but will look her up.
By the way, what is your "diagnosis" and what meds are you on?
katia
Posted by moosehaps on November 12, 2003, at 19:12:07
In reply to Re: Hypersensitivity to suffering- katia, » moosehaps, posted by katia on November 12, 2003, at 18:07:52
katia,
Please incorporate Moosehaps into your story, it couldn't be preserved in any better way. By the way, reading childrens' stories in the book stores always reduces me to a blubbering, tearful excuse for a warrior, because they're so incredibly tender! To this day I cannot read through "The Velveteen Rabbit" without losing it.I've been depressed since grade school (but not non-stop) and remember when everything turned gray, lost its color, in the 9th grade, for a few years. No psych doc, just a genial gp willing to go along, so far, with SSRI's I've wanted to try. But the leg work, as far as research into what to try or do, has been up to me. I take 75mg of Wellbutrin since starting October 30. The mixed states dx is definitely on the list of items I need to follow up on.
If you're in a good place, Ereshkigal will probably just bum you out! I'd forget about her if I had writing talent like you, that you're
cultivating in your writing class!I wish you much joy in your creative endeavors and would be delighted to read of any progress you care to share.
Take care, my friend, and enjoy the Fall.
Posted by katia on November 12, 2003, at 19:56:27
In reply to Re: Hypersensitivity to suffering- katia,, posted by moosehaps on November 12, 2003, at 19:12:07
Thanks for the encouragement!
So when did you actually begin meds? And how old are you?
I've also been depressed my whole life practically with some hypomanic times and hypomanic/MIXED! times; but mainly depressed throughout my whole life, interspersed with mixed. I remember being in a depression questioning the meaning of life at age 10. And 14, it all fell to hell for me. I'm 33 and have ONLY recently in the past year begun addressing it with acknowledgment of and medication. Just this past summer that the bipolar dx was revealed. Currently, I'm on 100mg of Lamictal and a tiny bit of Seroquel for sleep.
The Lamictal seems to be working. However, I do get tired very easily and the "working" part is me having quite a solitary lifestyle with no drinking :-( and very minimal social interaction. Otherwise I start spiraling again. Maybe someday I can live my life like a normal person.
take care,
katia
Posted by moosehaps on November 12, 2003, at 21:36:54
In reply to Re: Hypersensitivity to suffering- katia, » moosehaps, posted by katia on November 12, 2003, at 19:56:27
katia,
I'm 51 now and began the med search about 7 or 8 years ago, trying many of the trendy ones available. In about 1993 I tried Prozac when I was in a nursing program. I remember an all-pervading background noise going on when I tried to talk to anyone or listen to a lecture. After the lecture I would ask a classmate what it was about and they'd say, "you were here! didn't you hear what was said?" Truth: no; I couldn't attend to the message. I'd have to record the lecture and go home to listen to it to understand what was said. I couldn't make conversation with people because the racket in my head was louder than their speech. I'd try to GUESSS what they were saying to come up with some sort of coherent response. I thought I must be losing my mind. Anyway, all that to say I now wonder if that was an instance of an SSRI tipping someone into mania.
The classic descriptions of mania in bipolar disorder make it sound like the person is incredibly high, happy and out to jump into bed with everyone they meet! This doesn't sound at all like the "fun" I had on Prozac. Wish I knew more to say on this, but know very little at this point.Would like to ask: does drinking really smooth you out well, mood-wise? I ask because I suspect my severely alcoholic mom is/was bipolar and alcohol was more important to her than any of us. I just get a roaring headache and compounded depression after drinking.
Also, do you begin projects with wild enthusiam and quickly run out of interest once the "storm" has passed? Just wondering, feel free to ignore any questions that are boring for you to consider or report on!
Here's to beautiful thoughts coming to stay with us and never leave!
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