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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 686 to 710 of 948. Go back in thread:
Posted by katia on July 8, 2004, at 3:14:45
In reply to Re: Back on lithium and grateful for it!, posted by fluffy on July 7, 2004, at 17:43:11
Barbara and Katy!
First off, I'm soooo excited to hear from both of you in one go and I was reading each of your postings with eager eyes devouring each word!Let me respond to each of you individually (and together!)
> Hi Katia--
>
> Good to hear from you, too! Funny how we were all still connected to the thread. Let's see...I can't really remember how much trileptal I was on. Maybe 600mg? Anyway, it didn't last long for me. I stayed on it for a month before I got sick from it. Glad to hear it's working for you.
>
> Risperdal is another atypical antipsychotic like Seroquel. It was the second atypical to come out after Clozaril. It is not quite as sedating as Seroquel, but it helps me sleep anyway.**600mg sound about right. I'm on a low dose of 450mg. I was at 750mg of Dep. as well. It was good but I got such a s/e of sleepiness around 4ish and the fear of PCOS. But in retrospect, the best I felt (apart from now) was at 250mg of Dep. and a low dose of Lam.
**Good that Risperdal helps you sleep. I wonder if it'd do anything for me as I've been taking Sero. for a year now. That's interesting that it isn't quite as sedating as Seroq. b/c I wonder if I'm too sedated!? I'm only on 25mg per night at most nowadays. How're you doing besides Katy?? Haven't heard from you in awhile. Are you still teaching that art history class and doing your own art? Are you still w/ that guy who is also bipolar? and/or depressed?
> So you added Paxil, huh? I wonder what will help the depressions I still dip into weekly. I can almost set my watch. Thankfully I don't have severe symptoms besides a once a week blah depressed day. I'm fighting apathy right now, though. I feel awful complaining to my pdoc that I feel apathetic after all we've been through. I'm hoping that he will be willing to switch me to Abilify to see if it will help that department. I want to give it a try at least. If it's a disaster, then I guess we can go back to Risperdal and I'll just try my best to fight it.
**Apathy is a negative trait of depression and you have every right to complain about it! Being "normal" is not inclusive of apathy BTW!
Yes, I tried (am trying) Paxil. And feel good apart from those dips and such. But they are much less severe now. I've been on quite a trial and error with lots of things. I was off everything (except Seroquel and fish oil) for awhile (as you prob. remember). I remember hearing in between the lines from you that I should be on meds! I bought a house...and it's going great! I found housemates to help me pay the mortgage. It was a blessing for me to find this. I'm still unsure how I managed to do this!And long story short, Paxil is working for me!
And Barb, it's really atypical of me. (in regards to SSRIs and BPs). When I went on Trileptal in Feb. I then added Wellbutrin a month later and went bazeerk-o! And then went off of it and added Lam. for my second trial. It wasn't the euphoric kind this time. I got severly agitated. Went off of that and was having panic attacks almost and went to the pdoc and suggestd I go on Paxil. he agreed. and it seems to be working.Previously, before BP dx, the ADs that made me go hypo were the atypical ones like WB (serzone and effexor). SSRIs, like Celexa and Zoloft made me an insomniac or a zombie. I am not the average BP responder to ADs.
And Barb, re: St. John's wort, Glad to hear that's working for you in combo with Lithium. I think that's what you were missing too was a MS to augment the SJW. Unfortun. Li. did NOT work for me. I became a shuffling drooling stupor. But I did feel the powerful sedating qualities of it; which were positive. So too bad I experienced those negative s/e. Wish I were one it worked for. I know you were on the Li. Ort. Did that not do it for you again? just curious.
GREAT! to be in touch with you two.
Take great care,
Katia
Posted by fluffy on July 8, 2004, at 11:06:34
In reply to Re: Back on lithium and grateful for it!, posted by katia on July 8, 2004, at 3:14:45
Hey again Katia--
Glad to hear that other things are working out for you (life stuff). Things are holding together for me here. I'm still working at the museum bookstore and I will start teaching art appreciation again in the Fall. Hopefully I can get away with teaching two more classes and pay my credit card off. I've been through another moody boyfriend since we last talked. We lasted for about 4 months, and our romantic relationship just ended. We're friends now.
You could give Risperdal a try if you feel like Seroquel is too sedating. I've heard Seroquel is a good drug. It seems to be proving itself to be as good as zyprexa in clinical trials for depression and bipolar II now. Risperdal was also studied on bipolar II patients and was proven to be effective on depression. It's been the most dramatic in terms of effectiveness for me. It's helped me to understand where my defect seems to lie..I think I have a faulty dopamine receptor. Most of the atypical antispychotics are dopamine antagonists, which means that they block excess dopamine. I'm curious about abilify because of its partial dopamine antagonism and agonism. In short, it supposedly moderates dopamine, rather than blocking it--it coaxes dopamine out when there's not enough, and squelches it when there's too much.
I'm trying to work on my art, but lately I haven't FELT it, you know? It's subtle, but I feel like the creative part of my head is being squelched by my current cocktail. I haven't felt inspired by music, food or even sex since I've been on Risperdal. (just icky blah. my excess obsessive thoughts are gone--but almost ALL of my thoughts are GONE!) So I'm not sure if I have to make some kind of nasty trade off. All I can do is tell my doctor what's happening and hope that something can give me a spark back.
All in all, I'm stable, though. And that's saying a lot compared to how I've felt in the past 2 years--zipping up and down--tearful and agitated.
Are you still waiting tables? Keep in touch and take lots of care--
Katy
Posted by katia on July 8, 2004, at 17:06:57
In reply to Re: Back on lithium and grateful for it!, posted by fluffy on July 8, 2004, at 11:06:34
> You could give Risperdal a try if you feel like Seroquel is too sedating. I've heard Seroquel is a good drug. It seems to be proving itself to be as good as zyprexa in clinical trials for depression and bipolar II now. Risperdal was also studied on bipolar II patients and was proven to be effective on depression. It's been the most dramatic in terms of effectiveness for me. It's helped me to understand where my defect seems to lie..I think I have a faulty dopamine receptor. Most of the atypical antispychotics are dopamine antagonists, which means that they block excess dopamine. I'm curious about abilify because of its partial dopamine antagonism and agonism. In short, it supposedly moderates dopamine, rather than blocking it--it coaxes dopamine out when there's not enough, and squelches it when there's too much.
>
**Hi Katy,
Have you tried Abilify? I haven't. I was interested in what you said about the REM sleep and memory loss. How did you coorelate the two? And what meds exactly won't allow for REM? Is Seroquel one of them? Hope not. I've been having a problem with memory and not remembering things period and also confusing what was dream or reality. Could be the alcohol though. Not that I'm drinking more than 2/3 at a time, sometimes nothing at all, sometimes one, but it could be affecting my memory?> I'm trying to work on my art, but lately I haven't FELT it, you know? It's subtle, but I feel like the creative part of my head is being squelched by my current cocktail. I haven't felt inspired by music, food or even sex since I've been on Risperdal. (just icky blah. my excess obsessive thoughts are gone--but almost ALL of my thoughts are GONE!) So I'm not sure if I have to make some kind of nasty trade off. All I can do is tell my doctor what's happening and hope that something can give me a spark back.
>
**I hear you. I've not felt too creative lately either. Maybe it's b/c I've been too busy. yes, still waiting tables and going to grad school.All in all, I'm stable, though. And that's saying a lot compared to how I've felt in the past 2 years--zipping up and down--tearful and agitated.
>
**yes, I know that I'm much better than a year ago as well. No more crazy rapid cycling where the bottom of my world would drop out. I'm still moody, slightly low lately, but nothing too major. I could remedy that one by just exercising and drinking less.**so no boyfriends now? None for me still as well. But I haven't been open to it. I'm beginning to be open to that again now.
keep in touch and take care,
Katia
Posted by barbaracat on July 8, 2004, at 17:20:39
In reply to Re: Back on lithium and grateful for it!, posted by katia on July 8, 2004, at 17:06:57
First day after taking a teeensy (12.5) dose of Seroquel last night. Had very vivid and instructive dreams that I've missed. Haven't really dreamt in a while so I'm very curious about Seroquel's REM effects. The dreams tell me it takes you to stage 3, but it's stage 4 that I need for fibromyalgia healing.
Felt like a board hit me over the head when I woke up and have felt very dopey all day - like duhhhhh!! This is better than the hand-wringing anguish but not so good for cognition. I trust it will go away.
My questions:
- Does the dopeyness go away with time?
- Does the morning 'hit with a board' feeling subside? It never did when I was taking trazodone and I have enough trouble getting out of bed in the best of circumstances.
- What dose maximum do people work up to using it for a bipolar MS and sleeper rather than schizophrenic med?
- Any thoughts on taking dopamine enhancing stuff like tyrosine? I take tyrosine for thyroid health, but if Seroquel is a dopamine antagonist, is tyrosine counter productive?
Posted by katia on July 8, 2004, at 17:35:32
In reply to An update since Seroquel, posted by barbaracat on July 8, 2004, at 17:20:39
> First day after taking a teeensy (12.5) dose of Seroquel last night. Had very vivid and instructive dreams that I've missed. Haven't really dreamt in a while so I'm very curious about Seroquel's REM effects. The dreams tell me it takes you to stage 3, but it's stage 4 that I need for fibromyalgia healing.
**Hey Barb,
That was actually a question I just posed to katy in the previous post re: REM. Seroquel is pretty potent eh? I've been taking it for a year straight. At first I was only taking 6.25mg and now I'm taking almost 25mg. Also, at first, I also took it ocassionally, not every night and noticed when I did take it I was slightly more depressed, slowed down the next day. I am groggy in the morning and sleep like 9 hours or am tired. But I've been taking it for so long now, I don't know if it's worn off those initial s/e or if I've just gotten used to them. I actually do remember being really affected by it at first. Your system just needs to adjust to it. How well were you sleeping prior to Seroquel?Right now, I'd prefer possible slowed downess to insomnia. Insomnia is hell. And with Seroquel i rarely experience it at any time during the night. and when I wake up, I fall easily back to sleep.
I would give it about a month and see if the grogginess goes away or is more tolerable. I definitley need a cup of coffee in the morning to get going and hate to rush off upon awakening.
In january when I was a bit hypo, i was only taking Seroquel and needed from 50-75mg for sleep. From what I've heard, there is a limit on how high you go before the sedation is not a s/e. So if you are on very high doses, sedation isn't a problem. But on small doses, it's used for sleep. Doesn't make sense at all!
Keep me posted.
take care,
Katia
>
> Felt like a board hit me over the head when I woke up and have felt very dopey all day - like duhhhhh!! This is better than the hand-wringing anguish but not so good for cognition. I trust it will go away.
>
> My questions:
> - Does the dopeyness go away with time?
> - Does the morning 'hit with a board' feeling subside? It never did when I was taking trazodone and I have enough trouble getting out of bed in the best of circumstances.
> - What dose maximum do people work up to using it for a bipolar MS and sleeper rather than schizophrenic med?
> - Any thoughts on taking dopamine enhancing stuff like tyrosine? I take tyrosine for thyroid health, but if Seroquel is a dopamine antagonist, is tyrosine counter productive?
Posted by barbaracat on July 8, 2004, at 17:51:38
In reply to Re: Back on lithium and grateful for it!, posted by katia on July 8, 2004, at 17:06:57
Katy and Katia,
Talking about life and relationships, just wanted to fill you in on how my bipolar symptoms were affecting my marriage and all my relationships. In a word - awful. The gripes I had against my husband were real in that he's been dragging his feet about finding work, and with me being out on disability it's pretty scary. But sheesh, the stuff it was triggering about childhood issues was way out of control making it difficult to work anything through. My scared furious child took over and that manic energy fed the terror kept it rattling around and escalating. I was threatening divorce every week and truly felt I'd be better off alone and not subjected to the constant triggering.I was extremely sensitive to the slightest hint of a slight and found my mind obsessing on letters I'd write friends and family, tempted to write them out of my life completely. I was going around with a brittle angry attitude, telling people off and then regretting it. But in many cases, the damage was done.
The thing is, none of my reasons were delusional. Everything had merit, was true in a sense. People had treated me without consideration, people had said dumb offensive things. I won't get into politics on this board, but I'd get absolutely WILD if anyone mentioned they were not committed to getting the current administration OUT. In short, every nerve was on the surface ready to explode. People were just being people as usual, but I had no tolerance during this phase. I was and am truly pissed off, furious, exasperated by Life. That little girl is part of me and that's how she feels, and in the grip of mania, she is the personality that takes over with no access to reason. But she can't run the show. She scares and angers people and destroys everything in her path. And she is so alone and sad.
Lithium feels like my adult or my witness can step in, calm her down, reason with her. It's weird how this happens every time. My marriage has gotten better, I'm a better friend, my therapy is going better. There is simply no reasoning when one is in a labile state. It's pure insanity and it's so easy to hate and blame ourselves for the wreckage left behind and the energy it takes to clean it up. I know I'm not alone in this. Life is difficult for bipolars. Otherwise, what would there be to write about in all these books lately by people who have fessed up to being bipolar?
Posted by barbaracat on July 8, 2004, at 18:28:21
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel » barbaracat, posted by katia on July 8, 2004, at 17:35:32
>> Also, at first, I also took it ocassionally, not every night and noticed when I did take it I was slightly more depressed, slowed down the next day.
**Yeah, I was feeling just fine yesterday and today I'm kinda down.
>> How well were you sleeping prior to Seroquel?
**Without a sleep med, not at all. I've had trouble sleeping all my life and have memories of lying in my crib awake for hours. For a while last year I was able to titrate off the Ambien and fall asleep without drugs and it was soooo nice. But then my Mom was killed a year ago December and everything unraveled, including my sleep. Ambien has been a good drug, but it's not reliable when I'm hyper or stressed and tends to poop. So, with all the good press Seroquel has been getting for dysphoric mania and as a sleeper, it seemed to make sense.
>
> Right now, I'd prefer possible slowed downess to insomnia. Insomnia is hell. And with Seroquel i rarely experience it at any time during the night. and when I wake up, I fall easily back to sleep.**Yes, insominia will destabilize me faster than anything.
>
> I would give it about a month and see if the grogginess goes away or is more tolerable.**Oh, I'll be patient. New meds are always an interesting journey. I'll keep note of the mild depression too. That's too high a price to pay if it's a constant, and I'll go back to Ambien if I have to. It's important to find something that provides good restful Stage 4 sleep.
I wonder if there's a histimine effect in Seroquel. Have you been following recent research on how some people have high histidine levels and react poorly to anti-histimines? Pretty interesting stuff, along with other new reseach that is finding genetic anomolies in bipolars that tie into many common medical disorders. I'm considering going to the Pfeiffer Institute and submitting myself to all their tests and nutritional protocols.
Posted by katia on July 8, 2004, at 19:09:37
In reply to Re: Back on lithium and grateful for it!, posted by barbaracat on July 8, 2004, at 17:51:38
Besides, Jamison, what books are you talking about?
Glad to hear that you're doing better Barb.
K.
Posted by katia on July 8, 2004, at 19:15:28
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel » katia, posted by barbaracat on July 8, 2004, at 18:28:21
I haven't been doing any research at all. So I can't comment on that.
How would you submit yourself to the Pfeiffer Institute? and what is that?
Katia
Posted by barbaracat on July 8, 2004, at 21:06:08
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel » barbaracat, posted by katia on July 8, 2004, at 19:15:28
Many books and authors come to mind. 'Electro Boy', Patty Duke's books. Margot Kidder has become an advocate for bipolars but don't think she's written a book yet. Carrie Fisher is working on one about her long-term bipolar illness. 'The Rooms of Heaven' is a great one, but don't have the author. Virginia Woolf, Ernest Hemingway, Emily Dickinson, Edgar Allen Poe, Sylvia Plath, many more.
The Pfeiffer Treatment Center accepts patients like any other treatment facility. You fill out a questionnaire, are contacted by the staff, make an appointment, pay your money and get your tests and treatment plan. It specializes in uncovering the underlying causes for mood and behavioral disorders and has had success with autism and ADHD. My friend's ADHD son has been helped tremendously by them. I've held off cause it'll probably be about $2k after all is said and done and I'm tired of chasing this thing and being dissapointed with 'cures'. But I'm definitely considering it cause it seems they're on to something. Here's their website:
Been following recent research and it's quite fascinating. Too much to go into here and now, but there's some real progress being made in identifying the why's of bipolar. One interesting factoid is that one of a gene mutation is very similar to the gene sequence possibly involved in schizophrenia. Another is a possible similarity with MS since there seems to be a malfunction with the myelin sheath of the axons like in MS. It's good that there is research going on instead of relegating us to the back 40. Here's a short article on methylation which is getting to be a buzz word in bipolar studies. It also refers to the Pfeiffer Center:
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/3694/102961
> I haven't been doing any research at all. So I can't comment on that.
>
> How would you submit yourself to the Pfeiffer Institute? and what is that?
> Katia
Posted by SandyWeb on July 9, 2004, at 7:31:39
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel » barbaracat, posted by katia on July 8, 2004, at 17:35:32
Hi girls,
>From what I've heard, there is a limit on how high you go before the sedation is not a s/e. So if you are on very high doses, sedation isn't a problem. But on small doses, it's used for sleep.<
My p-doc just told me that anything over 100mg is getting away from the sedation effects.
Take care.
Sandy
Posted by fluffy on July 9, 2004, at 10:56:18
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel » katia, posted by SandyWeb on July 9, 2004, at 7:31:39
Hi gals--
From what i've heard, the sedative effects of Seroquel can fade over time. However, I will endorse Risperdal in that department again--it gets me to sleep, but I'm not knocked out. I sleep a little longer than usual, but I can wake up in the morning feeling pretty refreshed. Just another option to consider if the Seroquel doesn't work out. (i know--everyone is different).
As far as REM sleep on atypical AP's go, I'm not sure about a correlation. What I do know is that when I was taking a benzo every night, I wasn't getting ANY REM sleep. if you don't get any REM, lots of icky stuff can happen--one of which is memory problems. I didn't dream for months. Then my memory started slipping really bad. I actually lost my car and then called the cops because I thought it had been stolen or towed, when I had parked it at a friend's house only hours earlier. It started to get scary, so I asked my doc if he thought it could be the benzo. He thought it might be a combination of the benzo and that my Depakote dose was a bit too high. Once I started to sleep without Temazepam, I slowly regained my memory back. Another thing that blocks REM sleep is ALCHOHOL. So if you are drinking, you probably won't get a quality night's sleep.
Gotta go--take care gals--
Katy
Posted by fluffy on July 9, 2004, at 11:13:29
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel, posted by fluffy on July 9, 2004, at 10:56:18
Hey Barb-cat--
You mentioned something about the correlation between schizophrenia and bipolar. I'm really interested in this since the drug that fits me the best is intended for schizophrenia--AND, what do you know, my grandmother is schizophrenic (or schizophreniform, schizoaffective--not really sure). So in a way, it makes a lot of sense that the atypical AP's are for me.
Like I said, I think I have a faulty dopamine receptor or two. I also wonder about dopamine agonists WITH antagonists. I've tried to do some research, and I don't get much--there seems to be conflicting info. But I know for a fact that there are people who take zyprexa and mirapex together, for example. So apparently it can be done and IS done for some reason. Also--Abilify is supposed to do the same thing with one pill. The NIMH is doing a study on Mirapex and bipolar depression right now. I think they are just starting to figure this stuff out. If you sniff out any good articles about dopamine agonism/antagonism, I'd love to read them.
Anyway--enough rambling from me--
Katy
Posted by fluffy on July 9, 2004, at 14:12:24
In reply to correlation btwn schizophrenia and bipolar, posted by fluffy on July 9, 2004, at 11:13:29
By the way...
That NIMH study for Mirapex (dopamine agonist) has been published. I just found it today on McMan's:
http://www.mcmanweb.com/news.htm
60% response rate versus 9% placebo.
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 9, 2004, at 15:44:36
In reply to correlation btwn schizophrenia and bipolar, posted by fluffy on July 9, 2004, at 11:13:29
Hi Katy,
I'll gather together what I've found so far. There were a few stories just recently about finding a similar gene sequence for BP and Sch but I don't remember the exact sources. I'm signed up with alot of medical subscription services. One good one that usually has something is http://www.the-scientist.com/. You have to sign up once for free, but it's packed with more data than you'll ever use. BTW, I love the McManweb site.As far as schizophrenia, I've wondered the same thing. There's so much cross over with these disorders, you know? In the grip of my most severe bipolar symptoms it seems pretty classic schizoaffective to me, complete with voices and visions. What makes it not schizophrenia, I've been told, is it's transitory nature, coming only with the bipolar cycles. Schizoprenia is an all the time thing. But too much dopamine seems a contender in psychotic phenonmena. But then again, LSD and hallucinogens are a serotonin affect so who knows? It's worth pursuing.
> Hey Barb-cat--
>
> You mentioned something about the correlation between schizophrenia and bipolar. I'm really interested in this since the drug that fits me the best is intended for schizophrenia--AND, what do you know, my grandmother is schizophrenic (or schizophreniform, schizoaffective--not really sure). So in a way, it makes a lot of sense that the atypical AP's are for me.
>
> Like I said, I think I have a faulty dopamine receptor or two. I also wonder about dopamine agonists WITH antagonists. I've tried to do some research, and I don't get much--there seems to be conflicting info. But I know for a fact that there are people who take zyprexa and mirapex together, for example. So apparently it can be done and IS done for some reason. Also--Abilify is supposed to do the same thing with one pill. The NIMH is doing a study on Mirapex and bipolar depression right now. I think they are just starting to figure this stuff out. If you sniff out any good articles about dopamine agonism/antagonism, I'd love to read them.
>
> Anyway--enough rambling from me--
>
> Katy
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 9, 2004, at 16:02:43
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel, posted by fluffy on July 9, 2004, at 10:56:18
Hi Katy,
Have you ever been on Seroquel? I know you're interested in Abilify. Is that because you've been dealing with depression breakthroughs and don't feel Risperdal is addressing it adequately? Is it the dual dopamine action that interests you about it?I agree about the alcohol and REM. I'm not drinking much at all these days. Oh, a snootful every few nights but just a wee dram, nothing like I used to. I notice my sleep is much better on those nights I have nothing at all. Alcohol, such a seductive poison.
Ambien has been pretty good as far as REM sleep, at least it's touted that way. But yowza, the last two nights on Seroquel feel like I've been at the movies all night long. Orlando Bloom was in one of them. Sigh, didn't wanna wake up... I only took 6 mg last night and it was fine. Got up feeling groggy but made myself do some situps first thing and that took care of it. A good incentive to lose the belly pudge. I don't feel nearly as depressed as yesterday. Pretty good, in fact. - BCat
> Hi gals--
>
> From what i've heard, the sedative effects of Seroquel can fade over time. However, I will endorse Risperdal in that department again--it gets me to sleep, but I'm not knocked out. I sleep a little longer than usual, but I can wake up in the morning feeling pretty refreshed. Just another option to consider if the Seroquel doesn't work out. (i know--everyone is different).
>
> As far as REM sleep on atypical AP's go, I'm not sure about a correlation. What I do know is that when I was taking a benzo every night, I wasn't getting ANY REM sleep. if you don't get any REM, lots of icky stuff can happen--one of which is memory problems. I didn't dream for months. Then my memory started slipping really bad. I actually lost my car and then called the cops because I thought it had been stolen or towed, when I had parked it at a friend's house only hours earlier. It started to get scary, so I asked my doc if he thought it could be the benzo. He thought it might be a combination of the benzo and that my Depakote dose was a bit too high. Once I started to sleep without Temazepam, I slowly regained my memory back. Another thing that blocks REM sleep is ALCHOHOL. So if you are drinking, you probably won't get a quality night's sleep.
>
> Gotta go--take care gals--
> Katy
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 9, 2004, at 16:09:29
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel » katia, posted by SandyWeb on July 9, 2004, at 7:31:39
How do you feel on that high a dose? Is this something a person slowly builds up to or would someone start out this high for antipsychotic benefits rather than using it as a BP mood stabiliser? I've only been on it 2 days but 6mg konked me out. I can't imagine 100mg. What is tolerance like?
> Hi girls,
>
> >From what I've heard, there is a limit on how high you go before the sedation is not a s/e. So if you are on very high doses, sedation isn't a problem. But on small doses, it's used for sleep.<
>
> My p-doc just told me that anything over 100mg is getting away from the sedation effects.
>
> Take care.
>
> Sandy
>
Posted by fluffy on July 9, 2004, at 17:11:28
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on July 9, 2004, at 16:02:43
Hey Barb--
No--I've never tried Seroquel. It was the other one they would have chosen if not Risperdal for me. But since Risperdal has helped me sleep, I don't think we'll be reaching for the Seroquel at all. Yup--dual dopamine action is what I'm after--if I can get the dopamine flowing both ways AND sleep AND not be anxious, then I'll do a happy dance around my front yard. I see my doctor on monday, so we'll see if he will even try me on the darned stuff. He may be pissed that i've even brought it up. But if I can trade feeling 85% better with 100% better, I'll take it. Plus--it's a good time for me to do a trial. I'm not teaching and I can take vacation days if needed. I'll let you know how it goes.
Katy
> Hi Katy,
> Have you ever been on Seroquel? I know you're interested in Abilify. Is that because you've been dealing with depression breakthroughs and don't feel Risperdal is addressing it adequately? Is it the dual dopamine action that interests you about it?
>
> I agree about the alcohol and REM. I'm not drinking much at all these days. Oh, a snootful every few nights but just a wee dram, nothing like I used to. I notice my sleep is much better on those nights I have nothing at all. Alcohol, such a seductive poison.
>
> Ambien has been pretty good as far as REM sleep, at least it's touted that way. But yowza, the last two nights on Seroquel feel like I've been at the movies all night long. Orlando Bloom was in one of them. Sigh, didn't wanna wake up... I only took 6 mg last night and it was fine. Got up feeling groggy but made myself do some situps first thing and that took care of it. A good incentive to lose the belly pudge. I don't feel nearly as depressed as yesterday. Pretty good, in fact. - BCat
>
>
> > Hi gals--
> >
> > From what i've heard, the sedative effects of Seroquel can fade over time. However, I will endorse Risperdal in that department again--it gets me to sleep, but I'm not knocked out. I sleep a little longer than usual, but I can wake up in the morning feeling pretty refreshed. Just another option to consider if the Seroquel doesn't work out. (i know--everyone is different).
> >
> > As far as REM sleep on atypical AP's go, I'm not sure about a correlation. What I do know is that when I was taking a benzo every night, I wasn't getting ANY REM sleep. if you don't get any REM, lots of icky stuff can happen--one of which is memory problems. I didn't dream for months. Then my memory started slipping really bad. I actually lost my car and then called the cops because I thought it had been stolen or towed, when I had parked it at a friend's house only hours earlier. It started to get scary, so I asked my doc if he thought it could be the benzo. He thought it might be a combination of the benzo and that my Depakote dose was a bit too high. Once I started to sleep without Temazepam, I slowly regained my memory back. Another thing that blocks REM sleep is ALCHOHOL. So if you are drinking, you probably won't get a quality night's sleep.
> >
> > Gotta go--take care gals--
> > Katy
>
>
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 9, 2004, at 18:27:06
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel, posted by fluffy on July 9, 2004, at 17:11:28
OK, let me know how it goes. Sounds interesting. As far as your pdoc getting pissed at you - you want to feel the best you can and your doctor is probably getting paid quite handsomely to help you get there, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Posted by katia on July 9, 2004, at 18:32:57
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on July 9, 2004, at 16:02:43
Hi Barb,
I was at 6mg (1/4 of 25mg) for a long time. and that was enough. But that was also with Depakote, then Lithium. After that, when I went off of everything except Seroquel, i upped to 25-75mg per night to sleep.
So in the case of tolerance development or not, I'm not sure because a lot of it depends on the cycling of moods and with what med combo I'm taking. Right now, I shouldn't need the 20mg i take b/c the Paxil and Trileptal are sedating, but I do take that much. So maybe there is a slight tolerance build up. If I take the 1/4 tab, like before, it doesn't really work. I am quite awake. I have a horrible pill cutter, so it never perfectly cuts the pill, so I normally end up with approx. 20mg of a 25mg.I don't see any reason why I should quit taking it. I love my sleep too much! Hope it works out for you.
and good to hear you're not imbibing too much in the swamp water. I have been, but steadily (1-3 gl.), nothing too much at one time, but pretty consisently with maybe 2 nights off a week! But I can feel the build up of it with slight fatique, not quite as clear, and no inspiration, and slightly down.Sit ups at dawn? yikes....! I maybe need to try that. I have to say I always have very intense vivid dreams, but I had that pre-meds anyway.
katia
Posted by SandyWeb on July 10, 2004, at 9:37:52
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel » SandyWeb, posted by BarbaraCat on July 9, 2004, at 16:09:29
Hi BarbaraCat,
I'm actually not on 100mg. I tried it, and it really didn't do anything for me. In fact, I had gone up to 150mg to try and find ANY dose that would help me sleep....and that is when the p-doc told me that Seroquel begins losing its sedative properties at 100mg.
I don't really know why the Seroquel doesn't work for me, but I've read MANY success stories about it. I'm glad that it is helping you to sleep! "To sleep, per chance to dream". Orlando Bloom, you say? *smile*
Sandy
Posted by barbaracat on July 10, 2004, at 23:09:33
In reply to Re: An update since Seroquel » katia, posted by SandyWeb on July 9, 2004, at 7:31:39
Hi again,
My short-lived trial with Seroquel is over. Since starting it I feel awful. There was just one day I felt OK but by the evening the yucky draggy feeling was back. I didn't sleep well at all last night and all day have felt dizzy, dopey, anxious, weird and stooooopid. Plus, I'm lusting after carbs and sweets and have gained 7 POUNDS in 4 days!I tried zyprexa a few years back and felt similarly. Stuck with it for 1 month and finally dropped it. Been reading about how these meds affect histamine, dopamine and serotonin and I don't think my chemistry jibes with them. I was doing great the short while I was just on lithium and St. John's Wort and thought to try Seroquel as a substitute for Ambien for sleeping. But I think I'll resign myself to Ambien for sleeping and hope I can get back to the good way I was feeling pre-Seroquel. Darn, I was hoping this would be a real positive experiment. - BarbCat
Posted by katia on July 11, 2004, at 0:20:11
In reply to Seroquel - nope, posted by barbaracat on July 10, 2004, at 23:09:33
> Hi again,
> My short-lived trial with Seroquel is over. Since starting it I feel awful. There was just one day I felt OK but by the evening the yucky draggy feeling was back. I didn't sleep well at all last night and all day have felt dizzy, dopey, anxious, weird and stooooopid. Plus, I'm lusting after carbs and sweets and have gained 7 POUNDS in 4 days!
>
> I tried zyprexa a few years back and felt similarly. Stuck with it for 1 month and finally dropped it. Been reading about how these meds affect histamine, dopamine and serotonin and I don't think my chemistry jibes with them. I was doing great the short while I was just on lithium and St. John's Wort and thought to try Seroquel as a substitute for Ambien for sleeping. But I think I'll resign myself to Ambien for sleeping and hope I can get back to the good way I was feeling pre-Seroquel. Darn, I was hoping this would be a real positive experiment. - BarbCatHi Barb,
Sorry to hear that your experience wasn't positive.I'm sure you'll feel fine after a few days of clearing Seroquel.
The weight gain is a factor. But it's surprising to hear that in four days you've gained 7 lbs. that's very quick esp. at such a low dose.
I've maintained my weight gain at 130 from 115 after one year of gaining back 15lb. But don't know if it's Seroqu. related or not. I think it may be b/c I should be skinnier with all the running around I do.
Maybe give something else a try. Perhaps your li. is enough sedation? Mabye try what Katy is on..Risperal?
Just an aside, but the Seroq. s/e do lessen over time. But it sounds like you have severe s/e.
I mayself have taken a plummenting in mood. My sweet doggie got into a horrendous fight at the Petsmart yesterday. It was the most awful experience of my life almost. It was sooooo scary b/c of his breed. His teeth locked on to a screaming dog and wouldn't let go. I won't go into details but it was a nightmare. No one got seriously injured. Both dogs got more injured by the people trying to break it up by pounding on them with fists and canes....But alas I paid the bill b/c of my breed. another $200 down the tubes in the name of my beloved...I haven't really stopped crying.
i'm so f-ing sensitive that I think this incident has thrown me into a depression. It's awful. I was crying for 2 hours in the Petsmart before I could leave. they even wanted to call a taxi. Poor kids who worked there weren't prepared to council this howling lady and her dog screaming "I'm sooooo conflicted!" "I don't know what to do with him!"take good care,
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 11, 2004, at 2:08:06
In reply to Re: Seroquel - nope » barbaracat, posted by katia on July 11, 2004, at 0:20:11
That sounds like a horrific experience with your pooch. A major shock to the system and your adrenaline must have been hammering, especially with the violence of the scene. It takes us bipolars a long time to recover from stress like that. It's almost like a poison you have to recover from. Plus, it's hard to see your critter threatened in any way. We grow so attached to them.
My kitty who almost died over the winter is still doing relatively well. He's pretty amazing. I took him in for a chest x-ray and the vet says he doesn't know what's keeping him alive, things look that bad. He has FIV and has developed an opportunistic lung infection, among other problems. But his will to live is very strong, he runs around, eats well, and loves me so much. Pure delight and love between us. But every now and then he has a massive hacking attack and can't breathe. It tears me apart and I know I have to prepare myself. But I've been saying that for 6 months now, and he's still here! I believe we can feel safer and get closer to our beloved animals than to most people (I sure do) and their loss terrifies us. His sickness is especially agonizing during my bad times and more fodder for the bottomless pit of grief. During the good times I'm able to look at it realistically and appreciate each day with him as a gift.
You'll be fine in a day or two, you know that. Rescue Remedy works well for shocks like this, so does nice slow breathing. Although your pocketbook was hurt, at least your little guy wasn't! Pitbulls are such an intelligent, feisty, protective breed. Part of their charm and their challenge.
As for the meds, I don't think I'll go with an antipsychotic. Something about the dopamine antagonism thing doesn't feel right and I probably need more, not less dopamine. And at this point I have a good feeling about the St. John's and lithium. I guess I'm weird in that lithium has never been anything but great for me - no drooling idiot. It's only the thyroid thing that concerned me. But heck, it's been malfunctioning forever, even though I take thyroid hormone.
Posted by katia on July 11, 2004, at 15:28:43
In reply to Re: Seroquel - nope » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on July 11, 2004, at 2:08:06
Hi Barb,
Do you sleep well enough with just Li. and STJW?
I've been sleeping like a rock lately. Last night 12 hrs. straight and had the most intense dreams. took me 1/2 hour just to open one eye.Therefore, I may try and cut back on the Sero. for the moment. Maybe go to 12.5mg now. Those damn pills are so hard to cut. do you use a pill cutter? Mine is so lousy that when I try and take a lower dose it cuts it lop-sided and I end up taking more than I need to.
The pooch fight. I was not worried about my dog so much as the other dog and the consequences of that due to his targeted breed. It was just awful that I've considered finding him another home. I never really chose this. He sort of adopted me by coming over all the time. But yesterday, he sat with his head in my lap while I read and I felt so happy. Like we'd made up after a fight. It's almost ridiculous how humanly emotional this relationship is with him.
Who knows. I just know I can't afford vet bills of other dogs or worse, like being sued for all I'm worth and own and more.
I have a sweet loveable dog around humans. But other animals are his prey, like he's a lion or an alligator. It's so much responsibility on me when taking for walks.
anyway! Glad to hear your kitty is hanging in there - must be all the love s/he receives.
keep in touch.
Katia
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