![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 33 to 57 of 60. Go back in thread:
Posted by iris2 on October 6, 2004, at 9:24:56
In reply to Re: Dexedrine Spanuals Vs Adderall vs Ritalin, posted by geno on October 6, 2004, at 3:21:57
Geno,
I just wanted to say I am sorry if anything I said in my post upset you. I was only trying to tell you that my posts generally look similar to yours before I spend some time fixing and shortening them up. I guess you did not want to bother doing the spell check. I feel better when I do as my posts are easier to read and look like I actually can spell and type:)
Kudos for you for being the bigger person. I am glad you decided to let it go and post here again. You are as valued as the next poster. We will learn from you as you do from others on this site. I know some here are very knowledgeable about meds. If you read Dr Bob somewhere he describes how there are some on the board who are more knowledgeable and can provide information and some who just need to ask questions. I myself have learned or am still in the process of asking a lot and answering the less pharmaceutical questions or ones that people ask directly experience with a certain medicine. I was feeling like I was abusing the board when all I did was ask questions but according to Dr Bob that is fine. Sorry I could not find what he wrote and have to go to work so I do not have time. Perhaps you will find that passage. I know it made me feel better.
irene
Posted by zeugma on October 6, 2004, at 18:40:51
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm......(very long) » thug life, posted by iris2 on October 6, 2004, at 9:06:46
> I want to thank you for the information you posted. I hope it is helpful to Geno and I certainly know it will be to me. I am not diagnosed with ADHD or ADD but I certainly have the symptoms of ADD. I cannot focus, concentrate and have no energy. I take Ritalin, I started taking it for BP because of Parnate and when I went off the Parnate never stopped taking it. I have tried several other stimulants and am not able to take them. On the off chance that I can take Strattera, as a kind of back door stimulant I wondered what you might think of that.
>
> I also set my alarm and take my Ritalin and go back to bed or sleep for about an hour or so until it kicks in. I think that is one of the things that drew me to your post.
>
> Thanks,
>
> irene
>
Hi irene,Since you take Ritalin and are wondering about Strattera as a 'back-door stimulant' I will describe how they compare in my experience. Ritalin does nothing for me by itself. It enhanced the effect of provigil, which is the only substance besides caffeine which can give me any energy (perpetual severe lethargy). I cannot take provigil due to side effects. Strattera added to Ritalin provides a 'jolting' effect that is not exactly energizing, more like a clearing, focusing effect. Strattera is a powerful NE reuptake inhibitor but it may have other effects as well. I do not know if it would aggravate your other existing conditions. I went back on it out of desperation as my ADD has been in urgent need of addressing and provigil, which I would class as far and away the most effective drug I have ever taken for ADD, had to be d/c'd.
-z
Posted by iris2 on October 7, 2004, at 9:39:11
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm......(very long) » iris2, posted by zeugma on October 6, 2004, at 18:40:51
Posted by pablo1 on October 7, 2004, at 11:25:17
In reply to Geno....Let's Brainstorm......(very long), posted by thug life on October 6, 2004, at 8:38:37
thug life,
Thanks, this is interesting. I do differ in my understanding on a few points though.
I've got ADD inattentive type and overfocused type (I think) but I really don't have problems focusing, mostly with being distracted and procrastinating or maybe the substance abuse is a bigger issue than I want to believe. I've had four docs give me various diagnosis that all included moderate ADHD to some extent & have been in & out of therapy most of my life. Like geno, I've tried being sober & my brain isn't happy that way either so I've always self medicated for 30 years, mostly pot & drinking, not super heavily but regularly. So I think that messed up my ability to appreciate the psych meds 'cause it gets confused between getting high and feeling therapeutic effects.
For the record, I think geno is maybe pushing the stimulants too far but given his background of severe narcotic abuse, relatively speaking I think he's on the right track trying to be more methodical & logical about it working with a doc & will eventually settle down. I'm not in a position to criticise about abusing meds. But I do want to find a place where I'm not abusing and at peace. Enough for the disclaimers...
I look at the meds mostly in their relative action on the three major neurotransmitters NE DA & SE. SSRI's mellowed me out & made the procrastination worse in a way plus when I came off, I got a DA rebound like crazy. NE reacts badly with me, causing sleep problems & one of my diagnosis is anxiety so I don't need any more of that. This makes ritalin & adderall not ideal for me. So I got myself some pure dopamine meds amisulpride & amineptine & while they haven't fixed my procrastination, they feel good, make me happy & more motivated and alive without feeling like I'm "on speed" usually (unless I drink a lot of coffee). Mostly they give me a real subtle euphoria and activate my reward/pleasure system more than stimulating the NE adrenaline stuff. They take the blah out & make me feel more like a happy normal person & more sociable. BTW pot does this too but gets me much more high & fuzzy headed. Alcohol relaxes me & I think the part that works on the GABA causes a euphoria/pleasure sociability similar to the dopamine meds but obviously gets me drunk too. But all these give me what I'm missing.
So the way I see the stimulants is:
Ritalin -more NE, more jittery
Adderall -moderate balance
Dexadrine -more DA, more smooth/euphoric/motivating
Amisulpride -almost no jitters, smooth subtle pleasureDoes this scale of relative effects make sense to others?
Posted by iris2 on October 7, 2004, at 15:45:03
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm...... » thug life, posted by pablo1 on October 7, 2004, at 11:25:17
I am on Amisulpride and it helps some but not with adehenia. I took Amineptine the first time it was great but I just tried it again this time with Amisulpride and got no reaction. I took it about a week. I was starting to think it was making the Amisulpride not work. Do you think I should try one more time ( have tried about 5 times since it worked the first time) the Amineptine with the Amisulpride? Perhaps I need to increase the dose to at least 2 tabs a day? Perhaps I need to try it a little longer but the first time I saw a difference within a couple of days.
Want some opionions.
irene
Posted by Optimist on October 7, 2004, at 16:24:12
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm...... » pablo1, posted by iris2 on October 7, 2004, at 15:45:03
> I am on Amisulpride and it helps some but not with adehenia. I took Amineptine the first time it was great but I just tried it again this time with Amisulpride and got no reaction. I took it about a week. I was starting to think it was making the Amisulpride not work. Do you think I should try one more time ( have tried about 5 times since it worked the first time) the Amineptine with the Amisulpride? Perhaps I need to increase the dose to at least 2 tabs a day? Perhaps I need to try it a little longer but the first time I saw a difference within a couple of days.
>
> Want some opionions.
>
> ireneIrene, I'm curious how you got the Amineptine? I was under the impression that it was discontinued in the late 90's. Did you order it from a foreign pharmacy?
Posted by pablo1 on October 7, 2004, at 16:49:08
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm...... » pablo1, posted by iris2 on October 7, 2004, at 15:45:03
Iris,
I can hardly tell the difference btwn the two but I like amisulpride better somehow it's sweeter, yet more subtle. I couldn't tell the difference between ritalin & adderall either though. Amisulpride is more specially targeted toward the D2 & D3 receptors (though I don't know the significance of those) and it is an agonist meaning it increases DA release. Ameneptine is described as a more broad brush DA reuptake inhibitor meaning it prevents your body from reabsorbing it's already available dopamine.Ameneptine is shorter acting & I think should not require a week of ramp-up time.
Neither of them seem to be real sensitive to dosage for me. I'm only taking 1/16th of a 200mg amisulpride tab. Because it's so little I snort it but it's not like I get a big rush or anything, it still takes half an hour to feel. I get greedy and want more effect but it's not much different if I take 50 mg (4x that dose) when I was being more careful I felt that a larger dose did make me more stoned & that's how I settled on the 12.5mg. I should emphasize though that even if I take more trying to abuse it, I don't get real obviously stoned. Smoking some pot works much better in that department so I'm trying to relax & be a good boy & just use it therapeutically.
Oh, and I have heard that ameneptine commonly poops out or people develop tolerance pretty quickly like a couple weeks. I hope that doesn't happen with the amisulpride. There was one guy I read who got a cocaine high from 100mg amisulpride which went away after a year. He was being prescribed at 2 or 300 dose for antipsychotic effect but felt that the higher doses were a waste. For what it's worth, he had a history of abusing meth (speed) and while he did enjoy abusing it, it seems he's much happier now and certainly not as abad off as he was abusing the meth, which is a really awful narcotic to abuse.
Then I take 1/4 of a 100mg ameneptine later in the day. I've tried up to 300mg ameneptine with only a slight increase in effect. In fact when I got a second order after running out, I gobbled 300mg & didn't feel anything till later after also taking 100mg of amisulpride & drinking wine.
Oh one more thing... When I ran out, I felt a subtle effect from the amisulpride for at least a week after quitting.
Not sure if any of that helps you but if you don't feel anything it probably means it's not targeting what you need. Although the ameneptine should be more generic, hitting the same spots as the amisulpride plus others but who knows?
> I am on Amisulpride and it helps some but not with adehenia. I took Amineptine the first time it was great but I just tried it again this time with Amisulpride and got no reaction. I took it about a week. I was starting to think it was making the Amisulpride not work. Do you think I should try one more time ( have tried about 5 times since it worked the first time) the Amineptine with the Amisulpride? Perhaps I need to increase the dose to at least 2 tabs a day? Perhaps I need to try it a little longer but the first time I saw a difference within a couple of days.
>
> Want some opionions.
>
> irene
Posted by pablo1 on October 7, 2004, at 17:32:20
In reply to Geno....Let's Brainstorm......(very long), posted by thug life on October 6, 2004, at 8:38:37
Just clarify where I saw things a bit differently...
First, I agree about the disorder not being all bad. I think it makes us more interesting as people and carries some gifts along with it. I’d rather struggle with this than be a boring person. Getting through it I will be a stronger person in the end.
>
> Now as we are talking about ADD meds and stimulating meds....
> Ritalin does a whole different action than amp's.
> Amp's cause the release of NE,SE and DA.
> I believe (I could be wrong)it causes the release of NE
> more potently than DA(dopamine)and is least effective on SE
> But after all is said and done it works DA.The stimulants are all mostly dopamine meds but with a little NE (and it doesn’t take much to kick the DA into gear). I think the SE effect is negligible except with desoxyn (meth).
>
> Ritalin is ... a dopamine reuptake inhibitor.
> That is why it has a different feel because
> it doesn’t release as amp's do but reuptake's
Here’s a simplified version of a chart I’ve been using which can be found here: http://sl.schofield3.home.att.net/medicine/psychiatric_drugs_chart.html
(I hope it survives pasting formatting)
Ritalin
2.9 hrs NE reuptake
20-30mg NE release DA reuptake
60mg maxAdderall
10-25 hrs NE reuptake+ DA reuptake+
5-40mg
60mg maxDexedrine
10-25 hrs NE release+++ DA release ++
5-30mg NE reuptake+ DA reuptake+
40mg maxDesoxyn
10-25 hrs SE release+++ NE release +++ DA release ++
10-25mg NE reuptake DA reuptake
> -I personally do not like Ritalin because it is to unpredictable.
> I Get the dysphoric feeling.
>
> -I never noticed a difference in the l-isomer or d-isomer
>
> -Desoxyn was horrible,very bad crashes.
>
> -I currently take Adderall Ir the use the Dex Sr.
> I like the idea of using the fast acting agent
> to get into your system then let the long term agent finish your day.
> Timing is the key. Personally,I set the alarm an hour before I wake,
> take a pill, go back to bed, wake up with it kicking in.
>> -Dont drink or consume Vitamin C IT cancels out alot of the amps work.
You can also take baking soda or drink tonic water to increase the effect. Another thing I read says zinc sulphate increases effectiveness, I think this is alkaline like in antacid medicine
> Here’s some recommendations for ADD books for adults:
>
> -Managing attention and learning disabilities in late adolescence and adulthood by russell barkley
> (very advanced academic discussions)
Barkley is kind of an ass. He doesn’t think inattentive ADD is part of ADHD at all but something else. He thinks ADHD is a disease with no advantages. He is smart though he simplifies things too much & warps things to fit a perfect scientific explanation. If it’s not proven in double blind placebo studies he won’t discuss it.
Posted by iris2 on October 7, 2004, at 18:28:49
In reply to Amineptine » iris2, posted by Optimist on October 7, 2004, at 16:24:12
I got it about eight months ago and from a foreign pharmacy.
irene
Posted by iris2 on October 7, 2004, at 18:35:28
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm...... » iris2, posted by pablo1 on October 7, 2004, at 16:49:08
Thanks. I still do not know what to do. I did not develope a tolerance per say to the Amineptine as it worked well the entire two to three months I took it. I stopped because I have a bladder disease that it began to cause me too much pain. It is several months later when I went back on it that it never worked again. I have gone on it about three more times without the Amisulpride with no effect again. I thought perhaps with the Amisulpride it would make it kick in again. It seems not to be the case.
Thanks for trying.
irene
Posted by pablo1 on October 7, 2004, at 20:40:32
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm......(very long), posted by pablo1 on October 7, 2004, at 17:32:20
Let me clean up that chart and add another:
Summary of Stimulant Nerotransmitter Effects,
Halflife and Dosage Range
NAME__SERATONIN__NOREPENEPHRINE__DOPAMINEDesoxyn
--------------------------------------------------------
10-25 hrs_SE release+++__NE release+++___DA release ++
10-25mg _________________NE reuptake_____DA reuptakeRitalin
--------------------------------------------------------
2.9 hrs _________________NE reuptake_________________
20-30mg _________________NE release______DA reuptake
60mg maxAdderall
--------------------------------------------------------
10-25 hrs _________________NE reuptake+__DA reuptake+
5-40mg
60mg maxDexedrine
--------------------------------------------------------
10-25 hrs _________________NE release+++__DA release ++
5-30mg NE _________________NE reuptake+___DA reuptake+
40mg max
It’s suprising how much DA Zoloft has:
--------------------------------------------------------
Chart Showing Reuptake Inhibition
--------------------------------------------------------
(the higher number is, the more the neurotransmitter stays active)
--------------------------------------------------------
__NAME__________SERATONIN_____NOREPENEPHRINE_____DOPAMINE_
--------------------------------------------------------
Zoloft _________ 0.2400 ________ 341.0000 _______ 0.3800
--------------------------------------------------------
Ritalin ____________ ___________ ___________ 004.0000
--------------------------------------------------------
Seroxat ________ 02.5000 _______ 798.0000 _______ 0.2000
--------------------------------------------------------
Wellbutrin _____ 00.0019 _______ 000.0110 _______ 0.1900
--------------------------------------------------------
Effexor_________ 00.0940 _______ 011.0000 _______ 0.0110
--------------------------------------------------------
Lexapro ________ 02.7000 _______ 086.0000 _______ 0.0036
--------------------------------------------------------
Deproxin _______ 00.4100 _______ 123.0000 _______ 0.0280
--------------------------------------------------------
Edronax ________ 14.0000 _______ 001.7000 _______ 0.0087
Posted by thug life on October 8, 2004, at 9:27:54
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm......(chart), posted by pablo1 on October 7, 2004, at 20:40:32
Thanks Pablo,Here are some links that you and others might like........
http://www.neurotransmitter.net/drugmechanisms.html
www.williams.edu:803/imput/introduction.html
http://www.anaesthetist.com/physiol/basics/receptor/receptor.htm
http://www.acnp.org/g4/GN401000093/Default.htm
http://www.neurotransmitter.net/adhdda.html
http://www.preskorn.com/columns.html
xxx
http://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/psychoactives.shtml
Posted by pablo1 on October 8, 2004, at 10:03:07
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm......Pablo1(links), posted by thug life on October 8, 2004, at 9:27:54
Hmm from that first link:
"Amphetamine indirectly causes the release of norepinephrine, dopamine, and serotonin from nerve terminals. The drug causes the release of norepinephrine more potently than it causes the release of dopamine; it is least effective as a serotonin releasing agent."So many different opinions.
Another thing that is important beyond which particular neurotransmitters are effected is which geographic part of the brain is effected by that particular neurotransmitter. I find little bits of mention of that but it's hard to find reliable cross referenced information to say compare which drug increases dopamine in the prefrontal cortex or you hear that stimulants activate dopamine in the basal ganglia which then sends dopamine to the prefrontal cortex, etc. It's no wonder psychiatrists need a doctorate to understand all that. I'd love to have a doc that could explain what he was prescribing and why. My last doc just said silly stuff like "all your neurotransmitters are burned out from living with stress & effexor hits several different neurotransmitters so it should help" then I told him I thought I had too much norepenephrine & the dopamine meds seemed to help but he insists ADHD is better treated with norepenephrine, only I think that's just because strattera is the new non-stimulant & he's hesitant to prescribe the good stuff. Well if I just want to get high, I'll go buy some pot or a nice bottle of wine so don't worry about that doc! So I got rid of him & I'm on my own now.
I'm considering visiting Daniel Amen's clinic, the guy who does brain scans then sees which regions of your brain are overactive/underactive and he's got some comprehensible understanding of particular drugs effects on those particular brain regions & prescribes based on that then scan your brain again to see if it's working. The problem is it's like $3,000 minimum. And maybe he's oversimplifying in his own way too & it won't work. Maybe just find another doc who will listen to my research & is willing to try more different things. That's not cheap either though without insurance.
sigh...
Posted by thug life on October 8, 2004, at 10:39:12
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm...... » thug life, posted by pablo1 on October 7, 2004, at 11:25:17
> thug life,
>
> Thanks, this is interesting. I do differ in my understanding on a few points though.
>
> I've got ADD inattentive type and overfocused type (I think) but I really don't have problems focusing, mostly with being distracted and procrastinating or maybe the substance abuse is a bigger issue than I want to believe. I've had four docs give me various diagnosis that all included moderate ADHD to some extent & have been in & out of therapy most of my life. Like geno, I've tried being sober & my brain isn't happy that way either so I've always self medicated for 30 years, mostly pot & drinking, not super heavily but regularly. So I think that messed up my ability to appreciate the psych meds 'cause it gets confused between getting high and feeling therapeutic effects.
>
> For the record, I think geno is maybe pushing the stimulants too far but given his background of severe narcotic abuse, relatively speaking I think he's on the right track trying to be more methodical & logical about it working with a doc & will eventually settle down. I'm not in a position to criticise about abusing meds. But I do want to find a place where I'm not abusing and at peace. Enough for the disclaimers...
>
> I look at the meds mostly in their relative action on the three major neurotransmitters NE DA & SE. SSRI's mellowed me out & made the procrastination worse in a way plus when I came off, I got a DA rebound like crazy. NE reacts badly with me, causing sleep problems & one of my diagnosis is anxiety so I don't need any more of that. This makes ritalin & adderall not ideal for me. So I got myself some pure dopamine meds amisulpride & amineptine & while they haven't fixed my procrastination, they feel good, make me happy & more motivated and alive without feeling like I'm "on speed" usually (unless I drink a lot of coffee). Mostly they give me a real subtle euphoria and activate my reward/pleasure system more than stimulating the NE adrenaline stuff. They take the blah out & make me feel more like a happy normal person & more sociable. BTW pot does this too but gets me much more high & fuzzy headed. Alcohol relaxes me & I think the part that works on the GABA causes a euphoria/pleasure sociability similar to the dopamine meds but obviously gets me drunk too. But all these give me what I'm missing.
>
> So the way I see the stimulants is:
>
> Ritalin -more NE, more jittery
> Adderall -moderate balance
> Dexadrine -more DA, more smooth/euphoric/motivating
> Amisulpride -almost no jitters, smooth subtle pleasure
>
> Does this scale of relative effects make sense to others?I don't think Ritalin plays that much of an role in NE.It's actions are quite clear that of an Dopamine reuptake blocker.It doesnt significantly release the catecholamines noradrenaline and dopamine.I think what you are experincing is the action it has of being levo-methylphenidate.It works more on taxing the cns and with its periphial side effects makes it feel like epehdra or caffeine i.e.jitters,heart rate increase etc.
The Survector is a selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor.Which of course like The ssri's is more specific in what it goes after.I've heard a lot of good stuff about it but haven't tried it.I the USA we believe Survector should be illegal and not used but ALcohol is o.k.<sarcasm>
It's amazing to me that we know pretty much how amphetamines and things on dopamine will affect us.I believe it's because it's been studied since 1937 and has been studied the most.That's what worries me about SSRI'S.They really have no idea why sometimes they work and sometimes they don't.With all the with drwal syndromes,start up side effects,and side effects while on them...It worries me a bit of effects they will have over a period of time.It also baffles me that they aren't even scheduled.They are prescribed way too quickly and usually the patient is unaware of its effects.I often get into the debate of anabolic steriods vs Benzo's/SSri's.In New york steroids are a schedule 2 and everywhere else a schedule 3.I won't get into it because it is out of the realm of tis post but it all comes down to......money.
I think your assesment of the stimulants is pretty good.....They really only change when you start getting the xr's,LA'S,spansules,SR'S etc.But basically....
Ritalin-fasetst onset of action,hardest crash.Basically 1 step better than caffiene or ephedra.For me increased focus but on small tasks i.e.reading,made me feel focus on a individual level but on
a social level made me worse.Adderall-Will lose weight on this one,makes me ready to take on the world and get out of bed.For me this is a good social anxiety fighter.A big plus for it is that it comes in 30 mgs tabs.This is a drug that you will agree with or not.
Dexedrine-This is the best by far.If you want good social skills,good focus and attention this has it.Its funny how you will get involved in projects and spend so much time focused you stop,look around and realized you forgot about the real world lol.Get Dextrostat if you get it,it's not generic but most people think it is.
All in all I think the stimulant meds are safe,not as abusive as people would think,the PDR is way off and I think people will get little benefit if only using the max dosage according to that book.The other side is that...stimulants arent right for people.
Posted by thug life on October 8, 2004, at 10:58:46
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm.....(links) » thug life, posted by pablo1 on October 8, 2004, at 10:03:07
> Hmm from that first link:
> "Amphetamine indirectly causes the release of norepinephrine, dopamine, and serotonin from nerve terminals. The drug causes the release of norepinephrine more potently than it causes the release of dopamine; it is least effective as a serotonin releasing agent."
>
> So many different opinions.
>
> Another thing that is important beyond which particular neurotransmitters are effected is which geographic part of the brain is effected by that particular neurotransmitter. I find little bits of mention of that but it's hard to find reliable cross referenced information to say compare which drug increases dopamine in the prefrontal cortex or you hear that stimulants activate dopamine in the basal ganglia which then sends dopamine to the prefrontal cortex, etc. It's no wonder psychiatrists need a doctorate to understand all that. I'd love to have a doc that could explain what he was prescribing and why. My last doc just said silly stuff like "all your neurotransmitters are burned out from living with stress & effexor hits several different neurotransmitters so it should help" then I told him I thought I had too much norepenephrine & the dopamine meds seemed to help but he insists ADHD is better treated with norepenephrine, only I think that's just because strattera is the new non-stimulant & he's hesitant to prescribe the good stuff. Well if I just want to get high, I'll go buy some pot or a nice bottle of wine so don't worry about that doc! So I got rid of him & I'm on my own now.
>
> I'm considering visiting Daniel Amen's clinic, the guy who does brain scans then sees which regions of your brain are overactive/underactive and he's got some comprehensible understanding of particular drugs effects on those particular brain regions & prescribes based on that then scan your brain again to see if it's working. The problem is it's like $3,000 minimum. And maybe he's oversimplifying in his own way too & it won't work. Maybe just find another doc who will listen to my research & is willing to try more different things. That's not cheap either though without insurance.
>
> sigh...
>You know its good to see that someone sees the side of psychiatry of what I'm talking about.Most are just prescription writers and do whatever it takes to keep their money flow coming inand just follow what ever the orginzations feed them.From the FDA/DEA to the NIMH.Just start talking about neuro transmitters to a Doctor and specifc actions and they get flustered and most think they are being challenged and feel threated because it's their job to tell you what is right.If someone has ADHD the first line of treatment should always be a stimulant.I really would like to know why Ritalin,Adderall or Dexedrine is so bad? When you do a comparison to SSRI'S or the others,It's amazing the bad rep they have.Any reasons why you know of not to prescribe them and get SNRI'S and SSRI's instead?
Posted by iris2 on October 8, 2004, at 11:34:10
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm......Pablo1(links), posted by thug life on October 8, 2004, at 9:27:54
Thanks for all the links they will be helpful to me as much as I can understand some of them!
BTH just a precaution, Dr. Bob does not allow the use of the second to last link you used. I got banned for a week as I apparently had used it before and did not realize it was the same link. I did not understand why but he pointed out the link itself has links on it that are "illegal"
irene
Posted by iris2 on October 8, 2004, at 11:59:28
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm.....(links) » thug life, posted by pablo1 on October 8, 2004, at 10:03:07
I am going to seem stupid. I cannot concentrate or focus enough to even begin to understand or learn what I want/need to know for my own self to know what medications to take.
Without going into an extended background. I have atypical depression and bulimia and personality disorder all depending on which pdoc or therapist you ask for my diagnosis. Some probably might say severe depression instead of atypical. I do not know that it always matters.
For me one of the severe symptoms I deal with is my inability to focus, concentrate essentially read and learn and remember. I have not dealt with this with any of my docs. I am just generally so depressed it is not the first of many issues I would deal with. Felling a bit better I am very upset all the time about this.
You seem to know a lot about the mechanisms (my bet choice of wording) of how some of these medications work. I take Ritalin. It helps me get out of bed and perhaps dose a little more but not much. I find it difficult to read more than a paragraph at a time and comprehend, remember or be able to focus on what I am reading. I cannot take most other stimulants because of a bladder disease. It is impossible.
Anyway I was looking into possible alternatives for this problem and Strattera seemed to keep popping up. The probability that I can take it is slim. I cannot take for instance Effexor, many amphetamines, Flexeril, can take a little Amisulpride more than 50mg I cannot tolerate. There are many more antidepressants and other drugs I just wanted to give you an example. My pdoc says he thinks SI cannot take anything stimulating but then I can take Parnate.
I was curious if you thought it prudent for me to try Strattera as much for its antidepressant value as for the ADHD or ADD stuff?
I would value your opinion or anyone else who might have some knowledge of this.
Thank you,
Irene
Posted by pablo1 on October 8, 2004, at 12:18:12
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm.....(links) » pablo1, posted by iris2 on October 8, 2004, at 11:59:28
Since you are having such a tough time, I would give strattera a try. Some people have wonderful results. I don't think it's useful as an antidepressant but just for the focus. I have not tried because the side effects can be pretty nasty like sleepy for the first few weeks, trouble peeing & sexual issues surrounding that & a host of other side effects. But some people have none of those problems & it just makes their mind clear as a bell. You didn't mention if you've tried wellbutrin. Strattera sounds somewhat similar to that.
Posted by iris2 on October 8, 2004, at 13:17:28
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm.....(strattera) » iris2, posted by pablo1 on October 8, 2004, at 12:18:12
Yes tried Wellbutrin. I don't know if people are having trouble peeing then I might not want to try this. It is one of the main effects I get from my bladder disease. Frequency/urgency/pain. I guess it can't hurt but for a few weeks!
irene
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 8, 2004, at 17:59:58
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm......Pablo1(links) » thug life, posted by iris2 on October 8, 2004, at 11:34:10
> just a precaution, Dr. Bob does not allow the use of the second to last link you used.
I'd just like to underscore that, please don't use this site to exchange information that could be used to produce medication yourself.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, please see the FAQ:http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#illegal
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by thug life on October 9, 2004, at 9:07:18
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm.....(links) » pablo1, posted by iris2 on October 8, 2004, at 11:59:28
> I am going to seem stupid. I cannot concentrate or focus enough to even begin to understand or learn what I want/need to know for my own self to know what medications to take.<
Iris,
You can do it! It might seem difficult at first with big words and whatever but....let's change those "i cannot's" to "I must" and you are not stupid,I can tell by your posts you are very intelligent...I am the vibe master and can tell lol.
> Without going into an extended background. I have atypical depression and bulimia and personality disorder all depending on which pdoc or therapist you ask for my diagnosis. Some probably might say severe depression instead of atypical. I do not know that it always matters.<So the personality disorder is it borderline? You can correct me but you might have these symptoms:
1-Extreme sensitivity to rejection
2-Mood reactivity based upon when something good or bad happens
3-weight problems(in all forms)
4-Lethargy
5-more etc.
These all have a tendency towards the sensitvity to rejection which is why you can get so many "disorders"> For me one of the severe symptoms I deal with is my inability to focus, concentrate essentially read and learn and remember. I have not dealt with this with any of my docs. I am just generally so depressed it is not the first of many issues I would deal with. Felling a bit better I am very upset all the time about this.<
In my opinion you have defeciencies in these areas..... Serotonin,Gaba and Dopamine.By being sensitive to rejection and the focusing problems all tend to indeed point to a Dopamine problem.
> You seem to know a lot about the mechanisms (my bet choice of wording) of how some of these medications work. I take Ritalin. It helps me get out of bed and perhaps dose a little more but not much. I find it difficult to read more than a paragraph at a time and comprehend, remember or be able to focus on what I am reading. I cannot take most other stimulants because of a bladder disease. It is impossible.<
Since you are having an o.k. reaction to Ritalin(Methylphenidate) Have you considered...Focalin,cocerta,Methadate or if you don't go that route you can keep upping your ritalin dose until you get the deired effect.
> Anyway I was looking into possible alternatives for this problem and Strattera seemed to keep popping up. The probability that I can take it is slim. I cannot take for instance Effexor, many amphetamines, Flexeril, can take a little Amisulpride more than 50mg I cannot tolerate. There are many more antidepressants and other drugs I just wanted to give you an example. My pdoc says he thinks SI cannot take anything stimulating but then I can the Parnate
> I was curious if you thought it prudent for me to try Strattera as much for its antidepressant value as for the ADHD or ADD stuff?<Stattera is basically to me Desipramine wothout anti-cholinergic effects.And Start is more specific.But all in all it is a Specific Norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor,Hence the SNRI name given to it.Desipramine was always known as an NRI.So if you have any experience with Desipramine you can kind of get what it will do.You for sure though need something thats going to stimulate Dopamine.....
Can you take Nardil? This to me is a wonder drug.In atypical depression it has been shown to have a 72% response rate compared to prozac or Imipramine coming in at a 44% success rate.Nardil is the gold standard when treating atypical depression.Parnate isnt effective as it works on different mechanisms.
Also Selegine might be of some interest to you.It is an MAOI-B that works on dopamine.Not as much dietary effects also.
Modafinil-Don't know how effective it would be but its worth a try.The cost is the big downfall but it doe shave a psychostim effect which might help you.
***All drugs are touch and go and big what if's so only by experimental means are often the only way.
Here are some drugs that are recommened for Atipycal.....
Gold standards...Nardil and Klonopin
Neurontin,Lamictal,Wellbutrin,Ritalin,Vestra etc.
As far as Dopamine goes there are a few routes...
-Bromocriptine
-Mirapex
-Survector
-Selegiline
-Requip
-DostinexThere are more drug therapies but as usual I'm very tired and don't think I could be given the best response you'd need but I will try and give to answer tomorrow.
> I would value your opinion or anyone else who might have some knowledge of this.
>
> Thank you,
>
> IreneActually thank you Irene for opening your life to us and being at that level where you are researching trying to make yourself better.Sometimes I get down on myself but its people like you that ask questions,share knowledge that make me think this world has some hope left.I hope you understand I am getting at the point where I will start to jump all over the place due to----sleep deprivation!!! So please take care of yourself and remember after the darkest night is always brighter tomorrow.
Take care
Posted by thug life on October 9, 2004, at 9:12:05
In reply to Re: producing medication yourself » thug life, posted by Dr. Bob on October 8, 2004, at 17:59:58
> > just a precaution, Dr. Bob does not allow the use of the second to last link you used.
>
> I'd just like to underscore that, please don't use this site to exchange information that could be used to produce medication yourself.
>
> If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, please see the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#illegal
>
> Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Please forgive me,I honestly have no idea what site I linked to,if you could send me an e-mail of what it was...I don't want to re-post it.If it was anything negative,I wouldnt have posted it.I have 1 million links and it must have slipped in there.Thanks for your understanding and taking it down quickly.I will take greater retraint and resonsibility before posting links...you have taught me a valuable lesson.Thanks
Posted by iris2 on October 9, 2004, at 11:31:33
In reply to Re: Geno....Let's Brainstorm.....(links) Iris, posted by thug life on October 9, 2004, at 9:07:18
> > I am going to seem stupid. I cannot concentrate or focus enough to even begin to understand or learn what I want/need to know for my own self to know what medications to take.
>
> Iris,
> You can do it! It might seem difficult at first with big words and whatever but....let's change those "I cannot's" to "I must" and you are not stupid,I can tell by your posts you are very intelligent...I am the vibe master and can tell lol.
>
>
> > Without going into an extended background. I have atypical depression and bulimia and personality disorder all depending on which pdoc or therapist you ask for my diagnosis. Some probably might say severe depression instead of atypical. I do not know that it always matters.
>
> So the personality disorder is it borderline? You can correct me but you might have these symptoms:
>
> 1-Extreme sensitivity to rejection
> 2-Mood reactivity based upon when something good or bad happens
> 3-weight problems(in all forms)
> 4-Lethargy
> 5-more etc.
> These all have a tendency towards the sensitvity to rejection which is why you can get so many "disorders"
>
> > For me one of the severe symptoms I deal with is my inability to focus, concentrate essentially read and learn and remember. I have not dealt with this with any of my docs. I am just generally so depressed it is not the first of many issues I would deal with. Felling a bit better I am very upset all the time about this.
>
> In my opinion you have defeciencies in these areas..... Serotonin,Gaba and Dopamine.By being sensitive to rejection and the focusing problems all tend to indeed point to a Dopamine problem.
>
> > You seem to know a lot about the mechanisms (my bet choice of wording) of how some of these medications work. I take Ritalin. It helps me get out of bed and perhaps dose a little more but not much. I find it difficult to read more than a paragraph at a time and comprehend, remember or be able to focus on what I am reading. I cannot take most other stimulants because of a bladder disease. It is impossible.
>
> Since you are having an o.k. reaction to Ritalin(Methylphenidate) Have you considered...Focalin,cocerta,Methadate or if you don't go that route you can keep upping your ritalin dose until you get the deired effect.
>
>
>
> > Anyway I was looking into possible alternatives for this problem and Strattera seemed to keep popping up. The probability that I can take it is slim. I cannot take for instance Effexor, many amphetamines, Flexeril, can take a little Amisulpride more than 50mg I cannot tolerate. There are many more antidepressants and other drugs I just wanted to give you an example. My pdoc says he thinks SI cannot take anything stimulating but then I can the Parnate
> > I was curious if you thought it prudent for me to try Strattera as much for its antidepressant value as for the ADHD or ADD stuff?<
>
> Stattera is basically to me Desipramine wothout anti-cholinergic effects.And Start is more specific.But all in all it is a Specific Norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor,Hence the SNRI name given to it.Desipramine was always known as an NRI.So if you have any experience with Desipramine you can kind of get what it will do.You for sure though need something thats going to stimulate Dopamine.....
>
> Can you take Nardil? This to me is a wonder drug.In atypical depression it has been shown to have a 72% response rate compared to prozac or Imipramine coming in at a 44% success rate.Nardil is the gold standard when treating atypical depression.Parnate isnt effective as it works on different mechanisms.
>
> Also Selegine might be of some interest to you.It is an MAOI-B that works on dopamine.Not as much dietary effects also.
>
> Modafinil-Don't know how effective it would be but its worth a try.The cost is the big downfall but it doe shave a psychostim effect which might help you.
>
> ***All drugs are touch and go and big what if's so only by experimental means are often the only way.
>
> Here are some drugs that are recommened for Atipycal.....
>
> Gold standards...Nardil and Klonopin
> Neurontin,Lamictal,Wellbutrin,Ritalin,Vestra etc.
> As far as Dopamine goes there are a few routes...
> -Bromocriptine
> -Mirapex
> -Survector
> -Selegiline
> -Requip
> -Dostinex
>
> There are more drug therapies but as usual I'm very tired and don't think I could be given the best response you'd need but I will try and give to answer tomorrow.
>
>
> > I would value your opinion or anyone else who might have some knowledge of this.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Irene
>
> Actually thank you Irene for opening your life to us and being at that level where you are researching trying to make yourself better.Sometimes I get down on myself but its people like you that ask questions,share knowledge that make me think this world has some hope left.I hope you understand I am getting at the point where I will start to jump all over the place due to----sleep deprivation!!! So please take care of yourself and remember after the darkest night is always brighter tomorrow.
> Take care
>
>Thanks for all the input.
It gets kind of confusing because I do not keep a journal of all I have taken and its effects.
I have taken Ritalin- with good effect on low dose larger dose makes me talk incessantly and body tension.
Parnate- worked wonders for years with lots of side effects but I could care les pooped out.
Nardil- had no effect.
Selegiline-cannot remember how long and at what dosage- had no affect
Survector-had the best mood elevating almost no side effects- had to stop because it affected my interstitial cystitis (I.C.)-have tried again four times now and I seem not to get any affect at all. Do you think I should just give it a real long trial? Even though the first time I took it it worked within less than a week?
Several other stimulants-cannot take because of I.C.
Modafranil-made me crazy anxious
Adafranil-nothing
Topimax-nothing
Effexor-seemed like it was going to work definitely calmed me but the I.C. kicked in-tried it several times since and cannot even take one dose anymore
Almost every SSRI-no effect
Reboxetine-helped a little especially in combination with Parnate or Moclobimide
Oxycontin-take currently helps some with mood
Klonopin-take currently as needed helps with anxiety
Amisulpride-Current-helps some with depression but none with anehedia and has increased my prolactin too high. I was thinking of taking Mirapex which I see is on your list
I have also looked at Requip although I have not taken much of a look at Dostinex.
I definitely have the following:
1-Extreme sensitivity to rejection
> 2-Mood reactivity based upon when something good or bad happens
> 3-weight problems(in all forms)
> 4-Lethargy
> 5-more etc.
Yes some docs have labeled me as borderline others prefer to say I have some tendency of or for it. I used to ( years ago) self mutilate.Based on what you have put out here I am wondering if I should go ahead and try the Survector one last time. I just went off of it. It seemed to be making the Amisulpride not work. If I do decide I will have to make a commitment to stay on it for at least two to three weeks regardless of how I feel in-between. Would you not agree?
Perhaps I am better of with the Mirapex?
I thought since the Strattera is used for focus and concentration (ADHD or ADD) that it might be a way around trying to take a stimulant directly? The Ritalin just does not do the trick. I take it because without it I would never even get out of bed though.
I don't know perhaps I will try Adderal. The chance that I could take that is so slim it is a joke. But if I do not try I will never know for sure.
Thanks again and hope to hear from you again,
irene
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 9, 2004, at 17:37:32
In reply to Re: producing medication yourselfDr.Bob, posted by thug life on October 9, 2004, at 9:12:05
> I will take greater retraint and resonsibility before posting links...
That would be great, thanks.
Bob
Posted by geno on October 20, 2004, at 8:58:40
In reply to Geno....Let's Brainstorm......(very long), posted by thug life on October 6, 2004, at 8:38:37
THug life and uztopian,
sorry i havent been online in a while, NO i didnt go to a rehab lol, no my computer was down for 1 week, then it took me another 4 to get it working and i just lost track of everthing.
Brainstorm> you mean like ok, i know what you mean, well, Ill start off, Im in no way thinking i know more than anyone on here. Plus somethings you or I may say, will get us in deep with DR. Bob and I dont want to do that. But Ill post some opinions. You seem to know you stuff, neuropharm and pscyhopharm is very complicated and you may think you know something and blam you read another thread and your confused.
JUst to tell you all, I switched to dexedrine, 15mg spanuals. I was very disappointed. They did nothing. But from what i read on another board from alot of people is a certain company makes the generic version and its like 1/2 as potent. Plus, I wasnt thinking of spanuals, that they only release 1.2 the dose every 4 hrs, so thats 7.5mg , opposed to adderall 30mg which i was used to. 1 week later, i called my doc, and he gladely put me back on adderall and added a dose. So im on 90mg of adderall, which due to the 4-6 hr time of activation, 3 get me through the day. Perfect, yet 30mg is like not even strong anymore, but the main purpose is it helping my add? Yes.
NOw im really reading into other methods. Such as detoxing the body and brain , esp the intestinal track, where there are many neurotransmitters also. Iv been cramped up and what not for 2-4 months now, and I must find the proper herbal supplement, which i used to use, to help this. Leaky gut will cause all sorts of problems..
Now i dont take more than 30mg at a time, or then abuse issued would be present. My pharmacist and doc both agreed and said there is not problem with 90mg, and "other people take those doses, esp ritalin.
As far as brain storming, Im sorta doing the natural brainstorming, I had enough of looking up drugs and such. Iv bought 3 books and there excellent, on natural methods for brain health, and 2 of them could not be any better. Well theydont talk much about nootropics, but thats another story.
What i can say is natural or herbal supplements do have pharmological properties, and I recently have been taking up to 10 supplements at a time. But there spread out, and each works a bit different that the other. BUt mainly, if someone has a problem with ADD and even medications, a total body cleansing and proper nutrition, no ice cream, which i love, will dramatically reduce symtoms of add and help medication work more efficiently.
Who knows , my receptors could be downgraded, or nerve cells may be not properly allowing neurotransmittion , leaky or bacterial intestional problems, or even liver/kidney dysp. But I dont think its liver, or Kindeys, more so too much sugar and need more water and some better quality combonations of vitamins. Its ahrd taking seperate vitamins and herbs.As far as Adderall goes, i feel that the mixture of salts, work better for me, than dex. Plus top dose of dexedrine SR is 5mg, or 10mg dextrosat.
Everyone is different. If i posted before and mislead anyone about stating something, i didnt mean it as "the best way to do this or that or know it all, because unless you are a neuropsychiatrist, well, there is alot to learn.
Since i dont plan on being a doctor, Im emphasizing on supplements and opening up a store soon. Now if you think about it, I can name 20 herbs and 20 supplements which somehow effect the mind. So thats 40 supplements which I much rather learn, and there is quite alot, than learn about or should i say put all my time in pharmaceuticals.Lastly, i do have a question, statement, on a few supplements. ST Johns wart, is claimed to be a multi neurotransmitter reuptake and a slight mayo. Well , if this is true, the fda should look into this to get studies on such, but because its a herb, probably will never see such. Have you heard the same?
L-tryptophan, vs 5htp, most studies show that 5Htp is one step closer, which it is to SE, and taking B-6 and Vitamin c will help cross the BBB. L-trypophan, never took it, but do hear it has its benefits.
Last, SAMe, which is too expensive, is said to synthesise Dopamine, Seratonin, Melatonin. But more soe at 800mg.
So, if you suffered from mod-severe depression. Have been taking SSRI''s for a few years, and decided to try this combo:
St Johns Wart 300mg 3x daily
Same 400-800mg split 2x daily
5HTP 50-100mg , at bedtimeKava, or pheibut, both gabaergenic more so phenibut, is in my view looks better but i have to order it. SO there you have (if studys are right) a super combo hitting all neurotranmitters, except ach, and Opiate. Rhodiola Rosia, is a Herbal supp on the market now for a while, which has a slew of pro mind properties, esp serotonin and Endorphins. Ach, there must be 10 of the bat, but I would say Omega 3 fattty acids, DHA, DHEA, NADH, L-Theanine, Vitamin C and E, Gingco Biloba, Phosphitydlserine, Vinpocetine are top of the line neuroprotective yet have some N.T. properties.
Well I did the natural supplement brief run down, i probably could type all day but long posts dong jive with alot of people, but this info again is only my opinon and you can freely buy it over the counter, yet always tell you doctor, even if he doesnt know or read online any interactons. St johns wart, 5HTP can interact with higher dose of SSRIS. exp.
GM
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