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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 8:57:19
In reply to assertiveness and meds, posted by jonh kimble on December 5, 2004, at 2:46:24
I might add that people who have something "wrong" with their serotonin system have poor social lives. If your serotonin levels are too low you'll be one of those rejects who are cast aside. On the other hand, you'll have lots of time to ruminate, philosophize, and spend time with yourself. That's if hyperactivity of your frontal lobes can compensate. It could be to your advantage.
That's just a broad generalization that may or may not be technically correct. My basic point is different states of mind have their advantages.
Everybody has their place in my opinion.I think a lot of the times people don't want to live with themsevles. They see all these ideal images on tv. All these happy people making cash and working in high-class jobs. People don't even use the meds for clinical depression or serious anxiety all the time. Life's too fast these days. No room for the eccentrics. Slowly but surely the new eugenics movement is creeping up on us.
Therapy does change the brain. It does it better than drugs too. It actually rewires the brain.
If a certain part of your brain lights up when it's faced with certain situations, therapy can actually change this. In fact I read an article that said depression itself had more to do with wiring then just an imbalance of neurotransmitters. Here a very strong example of how your mind can actually have a huge influence on the brain. There was a study done where buddhist monks were put through a bunch of brain scans. They found that they consistently had higher levels of activity in their left prefrontal lobes. There was also a general increase in activity in the frontal lobes.http://www.crystalinks.com/medbrain.html
- this is a good site for meditations effects on the brain.
http://www.biol.tsukuba.ac.jp/~macer/EJ141/ej141j.htm - I haven't read this yet, but it's on Medication and Brain Function.Everybody's has certain traits that personal experiences, and self-psychological mending can influence. Gradually society's net that's used to catch what's unacceptable is getting bigger and the quick-fix of medications is also being used more and more. GPs are handing SSRIs out like candy. I'm not denying the existance of clinical depression or any severe form of brain dysfunction but I am saying that it's getting easier and easier to get a mental illnesss diagnosis and be given drugs as a solution.
And the drugs do more than fix isolated symptoms. Using your mind will.
Posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 9:03:24
In reply to Re: eugenics - is it me or is it society?, posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 8:57:19
I appologize in advance for the phrase
"if your serotonin levels are too low you'll be one of those rejects..."
What I meant was:
"If your serotonin levels are low you'll be rejected more often".
Posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 9:18:23
In reply to Re: eugenics - is it me or is it society?, posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 8:57:19
You will have to speak for yourself I am afraid.
I am a trained councellor, did a 5 year psychotherapy training and had 30 sessions of CBT, none of which did me a fraction of the good that drugs have.
However I would not put down anyone who has got more from therapy, we are all very different, one of the joys and frustrations of human beings.
Neither path is without its problems, I could put forward a devastating critisism of therapy, but what would be the point if it genuinely helps some people.
Please do not suggest that anyones path to a healthier mind is in some way lesser than another, just be happy that someone, like me has found a way out of this awful illness, and genetic endowment!Glenn
Posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 9:30:55
In reply to Re: Do SSRIs make people less caring?, posted by ed_uk on December 5, 2004, at 7:37:33
They generally reduce activity in the frontal lobes while increasing it in the prefrontal area.
I think. The prefrontal lobes are associated with executive function. OCD is related to hyperactivity in the frontal lobes and SSRIs treat it so I'm guessing that lowering activity in the frontal lobes ( except pfc ) is true.I think this might be true also since dopamine and serotonin have a reciprocal balance, and dopamine neurons are present in high numbers in the frontal lobes but serotonin neurons aren't.
Of couse, I dunno how this works. I can tell you one thing, when I read listening to prozac I gasped at the changes in peoples personalities. Were there frontal lobes lighting up or shutting down? Were they happy cause they were number and less concerned? Or were they happy because before they were numb and depressed and while their true personality was hidden?
I read somewhere that the frontal lobes are the seat of our personality.
Posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 9:35:33
In reply to Re: eugenics - is it me or is it society?, posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 9:18:23
I was not denying the existance of true mental illness - those conditions which can only be treated physically.
Posted by jclint on December 5, 2004, at 9:51:40
In reply to Re: eugenics - is it me or is it society?, posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 9:18:23
Glenn, what are the drugs you talk about that have helped you?
John
Posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 10:12:16
In reply to Re: eugenics - is it me or is it society? » glenn, posted by jclint on December 5, 2004, at 9:51:40
Xanax - calmed down (and continues to do so when needed as long as it is used in the anti inflammatory method)an inflamed system.
Celexa/ citalporam - great for me as a cosmetic psychopharmaceutical ( ie personality changer for in the main the good)
Propranolol - killed agonising headaches dead when nothing else would.
In addition , daily meditation, tai chi, exercise and cbt when needed.
The latter are for me far less effective than the drugs but I now only use 5mg celexa, 80 mg propranolol xr and xanax once every 4-5 weeks as needed to calm and reset the system (Dr Shipkos idea)
Hope this helpsGlenn xxx
Posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 10:25:58
In reply to Re: eugenics - is it me or is it society?, posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 10:12:16
I did not mean to imply that legitamate use of antidepressants in real cases of illness was wrong, if that's the impression you got.
did you have a look at the ed's question?
Posted by Racer on December 5, 2004, at 10:36:25
In reply to assertiveness and meds, posted by jonh kimble on December 5, 2004, at 2:46:24
I've found that therapy does help, as does having my depression in remission, and having my anxiety within normal limits. Yes, while you're first practicing being more assertive, saying no, etc, it will feel cruel. Personally, I never feel as if I've murdered anyone's family, though -- just as though I've kicked their dog :-P
For me, the anti depressant drugs have made it possible for the therapy to help me learn new behaviors. So, I can't say that one or the other alone is enough, because they weren't for me. I've needed both.
Hope that helps.
Posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 12:34:28
In reply to Re: med list. » glenn, posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 10:25:58
That's ok I think I know what you meant so you can allow yourself a break from the ruminating (lol!!)
I agree with you that if you have a shyness/low serotonin/lack of confidence/ (my belief)over reactive nervous system you may wel end up having lots of time to ruminate/ think/ sulk/ brood etc, but hey if an ssri helps a lot with this and its benefits outweigh its disadvantages is that so bad?
Thats why I stay on 5 mg of Celexa , nothuing else ever worked as well , just like the xanax, and for that matter the propranolol.
Guess I must be a pharmacuetical junkie!
But it sure beats having all the therapists telling one that you don't want to get better/ have more underlying issues and all the other rationalisations that are often used when therapy is not effective - and all the alternative practitioners whose claims are as broad as the oceans but do not of course offer a refund!Keep Well
Glenn
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2004, at 12:48:02
In reply to assertiveness and meds, posted by jonh kimble on December 5, 2004, at 2:46:24
> that hypersensitivety to rejection and that youre being an [*]sshole for standing up for yourself are somewhat less
Please don't use language that could offend others. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 12:51:35
In reply to Re: med list., posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 12:34:28
Obsessive rumination can be an asset, not so much if it becomes brooding. I wouldn't appreciate it if a therapist invalidated me like that either.
Posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 13:16:01
In reply to Re: med list. » glenn, posted by lostforwards on December 5, 2004, at 12:51:35
The problem is that if therapy is not working, they (therapists) do not appear to have much else to offer.
Take CBT for example, if thoughts lead to feelings , then if the process to change your thoughts isnt working, as you originated the thoughts it must be you blocking/ preventing their change. No good therapist would say this of course but it is clearly implicit in the theory.
Now that Le Doux has proven the thoughts / feelings idea to be incorrect, at least some of the time ,there will have been many people treated with an innapropriate therapy and who were probably made to feel worse by the very theoretical assumption of the therapy.
Therapy is fine as long as the therapist is open to other stratagems and not so blinkered by their own theoretical structure as to be unable to accept that the therapy itself may be the problem.( ie that its unsuitablilty is part of what is stopping improvement)
Glenn
Posted by jonh kimble on December 5, 2004, at 14:11:21
In reply to Re: med list., posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 13:16:01
thanks for the fast response. thats excellent! I would try the listed drugs, except the problem is that Ive already tried all the drugs listed. Could it be that i have an insanely high tolerance (celexa 60mgs a day for 2 months, effexor 225mgs a day for long time, parnate 50mgs day for at least as long.) Ive kinda come to conclude that drugs dont and wont work for me, yet it would make sense that they would which has left me quite frustrated to say the least. I was thingking of asking my doc for high dose nardil, but now i dont know....
Which is why I am very interested in the idea of meditation after reading lostforwords post. i defintly saved those links. see the very orderly and scientific means of describing something normally outside of science was very helpful cause normally all you ever see is drugs effects in scientific studies. Specifically the desciption of each brain system was very helpful. How do you medititate though? Any recomended books, methods, anything? I would be very interested. thank you all.
Posted by ed_uk on December 5, 2004, at 15:24:26
In reply to Re: appropriate therapies, posted by jonh kimble on December 5, 2004, at 14:11:21
Did you see the posts by Chairman_MAO where he was telling us that he got a really good anxiolytic effect from 200mg Parnate!!!!!
Posted by glenn on December 5, 2004, at 15:55:22
In reply to Re: appropriate therapies, posted by jonh kimble on December 5, 2004, at 14:11:21
xanax was my 26th drug !!
So don't worry you probably have a lot left before you get to my stage.
Jensens system if you found a cooperative doc might shorten the process for you (wish I had gone 3 years earlier). His point is that the right medication if found acts very quickly and in low doses.
As far as meditation goes there are as many approaches as there are drugs, its just the same really you just have to find the one that suits you best.
My tip would be to try a deep relaxation / meditation/ hypnosis tape , there are plenty on ebay for a couple of dollars.
It is helpful for me as a system stabiliser, but if I go into overdrive only xanax works, then again I know 2 poeople for whom it appears to have been a virtual cure for their anxiety - took 3-5 weeks however ( heard that somewhere before!)Good Luck
Glenn
Posted by francesco on December 6, 2004, at 12:44:32
In reply to Re: Do SSRIs make people less caring?, posted by ed_uk on December 5, 2004, at 7:37:33
I think you're right. SSRIs make people less caring and less empathetic (if you think about it's exactly the same thing that 'less sensible to rejection').
You can find plenty of articles on this subject. Some time ago I used to obsess myself about this issue and I started looking for stuff that supported my opinions. I also read Dr. Breggin's book a guy who stresses a lot the fact that SSRIs can make you more selfish and less caring. But, you know, world can be difficult for us crazy guys, and you know, selfishness is often well rewarded in our society. Freak and looser or jerk and winner, this has been my dilemma.
I think assertiveness is just a step behind aggressiveness. That is to say that too much serotonin, so to say, can make you an asshole but just a little more serotonin can make you self confident. It's a matter of degrees, I suppose.
Posted by glenn on December 6, 2004, at 17:12:08
In reply to DoSSRIs make people less caring? Of course they do, posted by francesco on December 6, 2004, at 12:44:32
I could not agree more!
Glenn
Posted by Anjul on December 8, 2004, at 6:52:45
In reply to DoSSRIs make people less caring? Of course they do, posted by francesco on December 6, 2004, at 12:44:32
Yeah, they make you less caring! thank God! I used to lie awake at night torturing myself over everything I said to people, and worrying about how they took it. Like Glenn, I did qi gong, meditiation, acupuncture everything and was living in depression, anxiety, self-hatred until I went on 10 mg Lexapro last year. I had tried other meds years ago and just believed that this was my cross to bear in life. Fortunately, a therapist convinved me to try Lex!
Posted by Iansf on December 8, 2004, at 14:16:19
In reply to DoSSRIs make people less caring? Of course they do, posted by francesco on December 6, 2004, at 12:44:32
> I think you're right. SSRIs make people less caring and less empathetic (if you think about it's exactly the same thing that 'less sensible to rejection').
>
>
While Prozac definitely made me less "feeling," it didn't make me behave less empathetically. When my mother died, I breezed right through it, which at some level I truly did not like, but I was able to express concern for others probably better than I could have had I not been on Prozac. So it was an odd sort of wash.On the other hand, neither Luvox nor Cymbalta, which I'm taking now, reduced my sympathetic emotions, yet both of them boost serotonin. I would guess it's some factor other than simply altering serotonin levels that's at play, maybe to do with neurotransmitter balance.
Posted by ed_uk on December 8, 2004, at 14:26:13
In reply to Re: DoSSRIs make people less caring? Of course the » francesco, posted by Iansf on December 8, 2004, at 14:16:19
Has anyone ever had to fake emotions while on an SSRI? For example, pretend to be upset because it was the socially acceptable thing to do under the circumstances.
Ed.
Posted by glenn on December 8, 2004, at 16:51:38
In reply to Re: DoSSRIs make people less caring? Of course the » francesco, posted by Iansf on December 8, 2004, at 14:16:19
I can understand exactly where you are coming from!
My mother passed away whilst I was on Celexa, part of me felt I should be feeling and reacting more, but at the same time it allowed me to support my father and prevented me from going into hell again.Glenn
Posted by glenn on December 8, 2004, at 16:58:13
In reply to Re: DoSSRIs make people less caring? Of course they do, posted by Anjul on December 8, 2004, at 6:52:45
Yes I remember the feelings- agonising and self hating over things I had done or said, the obsessional need to apologise and make myself feel (temporarily of course!)better, awful blushing if I said or did something "wrong".
I actually feel more like I imagine those without these problems feel, having a bit of the above , but not so much that it is disabling and life ruining!
I am quite happy (in fact very much happier) being somewhat less caring.Glenn
Posted by linkadge on December 9, 2004, at 16:13:38
In reply to Re: DoSSRIs make people less caring? Of course they do, posted by glenn on December 8, 2004, at 16:58:13
I think that SSRI's make people more "self aware". In that sence they are more focused on their own needs and less on the needs of others.
In many ways depressed people don't focus enough on their own needs.
Linkadge
Posted by denise1904 on December 10, 2004, at 14:10:15
In reply to DoSSRIs make people less caring? Of course they do, posted by francesco on December 6, 2004, at 12:44:32
I honestly believe and this is from my own experience that if they work properly they make you care more only about the right sort of things.
If they don't work properly and they are not working properly for me now although they are helping then they do make you feel less caring.
Denise
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