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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cache-monkey on December 11, 2004, at 0:45:06
Hey all,
So, I've been going through a bit of a bad spell. Lack of self-confidence, diminished thought capacity, anxiety, tiredness, social phobia, feeling cold and removed. Seems to happen every winter, but each time it gets worse.
The only way I feel better is when I drink alcohol. Evern during a "normal" phase (which is probably dysthymic/anhedonic), I've reflected to myself that I'll never feel as good as I do with two+ drinks in my system. I can think calmly, clearly, and confidently.
I definitely think I've self-medicated my way through various blue/anxious periods and situations with alcohol before. Not to the point of alcoholism, but repeated (3+ times per week) binge drinking. I realize that this is not good for me in the long run, and that it makes my depression worse. So I've basically stopped drinking altogether, except once every couple of weeks.
Tonight, after a long tired lonely day of doing nothing, I indulged at a party. After three beers, I was all of a sudden social, energetic, and able to access my interesting thoughts, which I haven't been able to do lately. I ended up having a six pack, decent conversations, and generally a good (but not at all out-of-hand) time.
I know that tomorrow I'm going to feel worse. I don't want to fall into a pattern of binge drinking again, for reasons already stated. But what I do want to know is what it is, in terms of brain chemistry, that I'm getting out of it. I think this will help my choice of medications in the future.
I've read that alcohol can affect dopamine and serotonin. But I'm a little unclear as to which is more affected, especially by large quantities of alcohol.
I'm leaning toward serotonin, since I also felt very good last time I was on an SSRI. (In which case, maybe it's time to go back into the land of weight gain and anorgasmia.) But does anyone know more definitively?
Thanks,
cache-monkey
Posted by Fred23 on December 11, 2004, at 8:31:00
In reply to Alcohol binges = serotonin or dopamine, posted by cache-monkey on December 11, 2004, at 0:45:06
> The only way I feel better is when I drink alcohol.
> But what I do want to know is what it is, in terms of brain chemistry, that I'm getting out of it. I think this will help my choice of medications in the future.
Generally if alcohol makes someone feel normal, then it is the GABA system being helped, which is better done by benzos.
(Didn't this get discussed a bit in October?)
Posted by MKB on December 11, 2004, at 9:10:42
In reply to Alcohol binges = serotonin or dopamine, posted by cache-monkey on December 11, 2004, at 0:45:06
There is a significant discussion of alcohol and serotonin, etc. at www.healthrecovery.com.
Posted by justyourlaugh on December 11, 2004, at 11:58:47
In reply to Re: Alcohol binges = serotonin or dopamine » cache-monkey, posted by MKB on December 11, 2004, at 9:10:42
your post is close at home..
not drinking this week...but have been able to handle the evenings with a small handfull of gabapentin...
60mg of celexa puts me on the couch..
benzo have little or no effect..
increasing lamicle(sp)..but it is a slow ride..
nothing helps like alcohol..
but i no longer want to be a drunk..or my mother..
i know i didnt help..but i to feel like i am suffering
j
Posted by jakeman on December 11, 2004, at 14:15:10
In reply to Alcohol binges = serotonin or dopamine, posted by cache-monkey on December 11, 2004, at 0:45:06
> Hey all,
>
> So, I've been going through a bit of a bad spell. Lack of self-confidence, diminished thought capacity, anxiety, tiredness, social phobia, feeling cold and removed. Seems to happen every winter, but each time it gets worse.
>
> The only way I feel better is when I drink alcohol. Evern during a "normal" phase (which is probably dysthymic/anhedonic), I've reflected to myself that I'll never feel as good as I do with two+ drinks in my system. I can think calmly, clearly, and confidently.
>
> I definitely think I've self-medicated my way through various blue/anxious periods and situations with alcohol before. Not to the point of alcoholism, but repeated (3+ times per week) binge drinking. I realize that this is not good for me in the long run, and that it makes my depression worse. So I've basically stopped drinking altogether, except once every couple of weeks.
>
> Tonight, after a long tired lonely day of doing nothing, I indulged at a party. After three beers, I was all of a sudden social, energetic, and able to access my interesting thoughts, which I haven't been able to do lately. I ended up having a six pack, decent conversations, and generally a good (but not at all out-of-hand) time.
>
> I know that tomorrow I'm going to feel worse. I don't want to fall into a pattern of binge drinking again, for reasons already stated. But what I do want to know is what it is, in terms of brain chemistry, that I'm getting out of it. I think this will help my choice of medications in the future.
>
> I've read that alcohol can affect dopamine and serotonin. But I'm a little unclear as to which is more affected, especially by large quantities of alcohol.
>
> I'm leaning toward serotonin, since I also felt very good last time I was on an SSRI. (In which case, maybe it's time to go back into the land of weight gain and anorgasmia.) But does anyone know more definitively?
>
> Thanks,
> cache-monkeycache-monkey,
Your situation sounds a lot like mine. I have frequently relied on alcohol to give me energy and make me more outgoing.
Here is a pretty cool site which provides an animated demonstration of the effect of alcohol and other drugs on neurotransmitters: http://www.thebrain.mcgill.ca/flash/i/i_03/i_03_m/i_03_m_par/i_03_m_par_alcool.html#drogues
You may also want to do a search on tetrahydroisoquinolines (THIQ's)..which some studies say is a morphine like substance that is a by-product of alchohol metabolism for individuals with a certain biotype. MKB mentioned Joan Larsen's website healthrecovery.com. I have been using a version one of the vitamin regimens from her book "7 weeks to Sobriety" with very good results so far. Glutamine supplementation has been for me one of the keys in reducing anxiety and dependence on alcohol.
Jake
Posted by cache-monkey on December 12, 2004, at 11:13:31
In reply to Re: Alcohol binges = serotonin or dopamine » cache-monkey, posted by Fred23 on December 11, 2004, at 8:31:00
> Generally if alcohol makes someone feel normal, then it is the GABA system being helped, which is better done by benzos.
>
> (Didn't this get discussed a bit in October?)
>Thanks for the info. I skimmed through the archives from October and couldn't find any discussion, though.
Best,
cache-monkey
Posted by jay on December 12, 2004, at 13:04:05
In reply to Alcohol binges = serotonin or dopamine, posted by cache-monkey on December 11, 2004, at 0:45:06
Hi....from my discussion with a psychopharm researcher at McMaster here in Canada, it seems three chemicals are out of whack in alcohol craving: serotonin, gaba, and dopamine. The idea is not to get one to dominate the other, but to get all three in fine tune and harmony. This may be done with a combo of meds, say an SSRI like Prozac, a TCA like Nortriptyline, plus a benzo and possibly Neurontin.
It seems in most cases of depression, the more chemicals you muck around with, the better. This may be why TCA are often better for people with long term depression than an SSRI.
To sum it up, though, to say one chemical causes "this" or "that" seems very, very unlikely.
Just my take,
Jay
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