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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by S. Bartel on February 4, 2005, at 13:36:11
In reply to Re: No Withdrawal Symptoms?, posted by ed_uk on February 4, 2005, at 13:11:44
You can take the granules from the capsules and mix them in orange juice or any other liquid when you cut your dose in half. Save the granules for the next day.
Sammi
Posted by Marg on February 4, 2005, at 14:06:56
In reply to Re: No Withdrawal Symptoms? » Marg, posted by S. Bartel on February 4, 2005, at 13:31:25
I had eczema before taking the tablets.
Thanks for your input though.
Posted by Marg on February 4, 2005, at 14:08:29
In reply to Re: No Withdrawal Symptoms? » ed_uk, posted by S. Bartel on February 4, 2005, at 13:36:11
> You can take the granules from the capsules and mix them in orange juice or any other liquid when you cut your dose in half. Save the granules for the next day.
> Sammi
I take the tablets nd 37.5 is the lowest dose so if I'm supposed to take a tablet everyday how do I ever come off them?My head hurts! LOL
Posted by S. Bartel on February 4, 2005, at 14:19:45
In reply to Re: No Withdrawal Symptoms?, posted by Marg on February 4, 2005, at 14:08:29
Break the tablets in half and then quarters. If this is a problem ask your Dr. for the 37 1/2 capsules and open them up and split them that way. Don't come off effexor too fast and the withdrawls won't be so bad. It took me 2 months to stop from 75mg and I think that was too fast. I've been off 3 months now and feel so much better. While going through the withdrawls I was tempted to start taking it again just to end the horrible effects of the withdrawl, but I am so glad now that I didn't. I have so much energy now. Hang in there, it does get better.
Sammi
Posted by Jiggitykid on February 4, 2005, at 14:29:35
In reply to Re: No Withdrawal Symptoms?, posted by Marg on February 4, 2005, at 11:19:39
Odds are that you won't be able to stay on it forever. Effexor requires more and more to be effective. Eventually, you'll be at the max dose and it won't work, and you'll have to come off it then. The withdrawal will likely be exponentially worse then. Getting off now is a good idea. As for the sleep paralysis, I occasionally experience that and it is terrifying. I don't have any suggestions, but hope and pray you'll find something that will help. Take care!
> I am coming off effexor after taking it for nearly 4 years. I'm suffering from dizziness and headaches but thats not the worst thing.
> Before I started effexor I used to suffer from sleep paralysis but it seems the drug stopped that happening, now the SP is back and I hate it! It is the most terrifying thing I have ever experienced. I want to stay on effexor forever to to stop the SP. Is this a good idea?
Posted by Jiggitykid on February 4, 2005, at 14:35:03
In reply to Re: No Withdrawal Symptoms?, posted by ed_uk on February 4, 2005, at 13:11:44
Please keep in mind that advice given on this board is given by people who DO NOT KNOW YOUR CASE and are not qualified to diagnose, treat or recommend courses of medical action for you. Advice based on personal experience is all that should be expected, and you have to make the decision about your medication in conjunction with your doctor only. I would not accept a recommendation to keep taking, or discontinue, medication without a thorough exam by your physician. No, the medical community has NOT been helpful about the side-effects and the withdrawal effects from this medication, but making decisions based on advice solicited from non-professionals is not the wisest course of action.
> Hi,
>
> I think you should go back on 37.5mg/day. It was helping you without side effects. You do not have any contra-indications to the use of Effexor.
>
> >I'm taking it every two days and have a constant headache, bad dizziness on the 2nd day without a tablet and SP.
>
> Effexor needs to be taken daily, even during tapering. It is not logical to take it on alternate days because it has a very short duration of action in the body. Many doctors tell people to take it on alternate days, it's not a good idea though!!!
>
> Are you taking the tablets or the capsules?
>
> If you do decide to stop Effexor, try taking half a tablet/capsule daily rather than one tablet on alternate days. If you still have withdrawal symptoms you could try taking three quarters of a tablet/capsule daily- you could then reduce the dose gradually every few weeks. You'll have to get good at chopping tablets or opening capsules and dividing the contents!! Effexor capsules contain 'pellets' of venlafaxine, as a result you can gradually reduce the dose.
>
> Ed.
>
>
>
>
Posted by Jiggitykid on February 4, 2005, at 14:36:34
In reply to Re: No Withdrawal Symptoms?, posted by Marg on February 4, 2005, at 12:46:42
Marg, please see my post following ed_uk's response to this. Thanks.
> >it's not ideal for people who suffer from stomach ulcers or other gastro-intestinal conditions. Also, Effexor is not particularly suitable for people who suffer from heart disease, severe high blood pressure, liver disease, renal failure, epilepsy, glaucoma or bleeding disorders. Do you have any of these conditions?
>
> No, I don't have any of those.
>
> >Effexor is best avoided if you need to take warfarin, daily aspirin or daily NSAIDs. It can be problematic for people who have bipolar disorder (manic-depression). It should not be taken during pregnancy or breast feeding.
>
> None of the above apply.
>
> I was taking 37.5mg a day,for depression, I'm taking it every two days and have a constant headache, bad dizziness on the 2nd day without a tablet and SP.
>
Posted by mintsi1v3r on February 4, 2005, at 20:11:27
In reply to Effexor withdrawal symptoms!, posted by Becky on October 2, 1999, at 22:03:30
I just want to let everyone know that it has been 3 days since i cut off effexor cold turkey and i have been doing great. Things are getting better and better, which is alot different from the posts that i have been reading from others.
I was on effexor dosage of 225 mg and have been on it for almost 2 years. It has been 3 days, and yes, there are withdrawal symptoms such as headaches, brain zaps, stomach pains.. all of which are minimal when comparing to how i feel mentally - GREAT. I AM HAPPY AND RELIEVED to be finally off the drug. I know it has only been 3 days but the symptoms are already starting to wear off.
The best advice i can give to someone considering to stop taking the medicine is to keep a positive mind set. I know it sounds cliche but like with everything else in life, a situation is as good as u see it, and u are only as happy as u make urself be. All i am trying to say is that it is 90% mental. Things will look alot better if u focus on a positive.
I was almost going to panic a couple days ago when i read posts about people saying it was the "worst part of their life" or they were about to go crazy. So if u are planning to quit effexor, i'd suggest to not read those posts are take it very lightly, for if i can do it, so can all of u.
GOOD LUCK and god bless.
Posted by S. Bartel on February 4, 2005, at 21:57:13
In reply to Withdrawal after 3 days from cold turkey, posted by mintsi1v3r on February 4, 2005, at 20:11:27
Don't drive or use machinery
Posted by Jiggitykid on February 4, 2005, at 22:00:25
In reply to Withdrawal after 3 days from cold turkey, posted by mintsi1v3r on February 4, 2005, at 20:11:27
I am glad you are doing so well. However, we cannot minimize what the rest of us have been through. I went through HELL with withdraw. Each person responds/reacts differently, that's why there are so many viewpoints and experiences shared here. Some withdrawal minimally, as you've described. Others go through horrible withdrawal, like I did. I was in intense pain. My mental outlook had !nothing to do! with the way that I personally experienced the physical effects of withdrawal. I hope that you continue to withdrawl "easily." I wish that I could have had the same experience. For example, years ago, I stopped taking Prozac cold-turkey. No problem. Others have problems with stopping Prozac (and other meds). This morning on the news, they talked about the "Zoloft defense," and had a physician testify that he has had many, many patients tell him that their suicidal impulses were increased beyond their capacity to control them on Zoloft. I had no problems at all on Zoloft until it basically quit working. Each person has a different body/brain chemistry and will react/withdraw differently. Each experience should be RESPECTED; the folks who had a hard time did not simply have a bad attitude. . .Good luck in your continued healing.
> I just want to let everyone know that it has been 3 days since i cut off effexor cold turkey and i have been doing great. Things are getting better and better, which is alot different from the posts that i have been reading from others.
>
> I was on effexor dosage of 225 mg and have been on it for almost 2 years. It has been 3 days, and yes, there are withdrawal symptoms such as headaches, brain zaps, stomach pains.. all of which are minimal when comparing to how i feel mentally - GREAT. I AM HAPPY AND RELIEVED to be finally off the drug. I know it has only been 3 days but the symptoms are already starting to wear off.
>
> The best advice i can give to someone considering to stop taking the medicine is to keep a positive mind set. I know it sounds cliche but like with everything else in life, a situation is as good as u see it, and u are only as happy as u make urself be. All i am trying to say is that it is 90% mental. Things will look alot better if u focus on a positive.
>
> I was almost going to panic a couple days ago when i read posts about people saying it was the "worst part of their life" or they were about to go crazy. So if u are planning to quit effexor, i'd suggest to not read those posts are take it very lightly, for if i can do it, so can all of u.
>
> GOOD LUCK and god bless.
>
>
Posted by Damos on February 6, 2005, at 15:10:41
In reply to Re: No Withdrawal Symptoms?, posted by Marg on February 4, 2005, at 12:02:24
Hi Marg,
I can attest to the fact that every other day doesn't work with Efexor. Been trying it for a while and have been a mess of symptoms. But it was my choice to try it this way, after a long discussion of options with my Dr's. It proved to be the wrong call but at least I felt in control of the decision/choice.
Having experienced SP a few times I can understand your concern, it's sure not something I'd want to be experiencing on a regular basis. Not knowing the full extent of the discussions with your Dr makes things difficult but I know how important having trust and confidence in mine has been, and I'm not sure I could trust someone who made a comment like that. I mean would he tell a patient on chemo to stop it just because he didn't diagnose their cancer - I don't think so! If he isn't prepared to go right back to the beginning and work through things with you to come to a "mutual" decision about what's best for you based on your history, experience of this medication and current state, I'd be concerned. It's your health we're talking about so you need to feel in control.
Sorry for getting on my high horse, but Drs who act like if it isn't on a scan or a blood test then "So what!" really get me going. And I'm just really worried about you going back to regular SP episodes etc.
Please take good care of yourself, you'll be in my thoughts.
Posted by Damos on February 6, 2005, at 17:02:15
In reply to Re: No Withdrawal Symptoms?, posted by Marg on February 4, 2005, at 11:19:39
Sorry Marg got so wound up in the last post I forgot the most important thing. My Drs agreed when I had my SP episodes that if they continued they'd would refer me to a sleep disorders clinic as SP can be related to narcolepsy. I have a friend who went to one for sleep apnea and says is it was the best thing he's even done. There are specialist sleep centres all over so it may be worth checking out.
Good luck.
Posted by Maxime on February 6, 2005, at 18:55:39
In reply to Withdrawal after 3 days from cold turkey, posted by mintsi1v3r on February 4, 2005, at 20:11:27
Hi -
I don't take Effexor (although I did once) but the subject line of your post caught eye.
I'm really happy you have been successful. However, withdrawal symptoms are real and they are awful to go through.
So while I am thrilled that you went through the process smoothly, and I am sure your positive attitude helped (although how you managed to keep a positive attitude when depressed is intriguing), please know that you are atypical. Those who post about their hellish withdrawals are going through something very real and very horrid. You were very lucky.
Maxime
> I just want to let everyone know that it has been 3 days since i cut off effexor cold turkey and i have been doing great. Things are getting better and better, which is alot different from the posts that i have been reading from others.
>
> I was on effexor dosage of 225 mg and have been on it for almost 2 years. It has been 3 days, and yes, there are withdrawal symptoms such as headaches, brain zaps, stomach pains.. all of which are minimal when comparing to how i feel mentally - GREAT. I AM HAPPY AND RELIEVED to be finally off the drug. I know it has only been 3 days but the symptoms are already starting to wear off.
>
> The best advice i can give to someone considering to stop taking the medicine is to keep a positive mind set. I know it sounds cliche but like with everything else in life, a situation is as good as u see it, and u are only as happy as u make urself be. All i am trying to say is that it is 90% mental. Things will look alot better if u focus on a positive.
>
> I was almost going to panic a couple days ago when i read posts about people saying it was the "worst part of their life" or they were about to go crazy. So if u are planning to quit effexor, i'd suggest to not read those posts are take it very lightly, for if i can do it, so can all of u.
>
> GOOD LUCK and god bless.
>
>
Posted by Maxime on February 6, 2005, at 19:03:12
In reply to Re: Withdrawal after 3 days from cold turkey, posted by Maxime on February 6, 2005, at 18:55:39
Oh and 90 percent is not mental. It's a true withdrawal. All these meds we take are changing the chemicals in our brains. A drastic shift will give you drastic results. You don't start a med a high dose, you work your way up and there is a reason for that. So the same is true when coming off a med.
I came off a med too quickly a psychosis occured. It was a real psychosis and it was a nightmare.
There was only one meds I stopped cold turkey and suffered no ill effects and that was with Prozac. But it has a half life of 5 weeks.
Maxime
Posted by Jiggitykid on February 6, 2005, at 21:55:35
In reply to Re: No Withdrawal Symptoms?, posted by Damos on February 6, 2005, at 17:02:15
I echo this - a sleep clinic would be a great source of info and maybe even help for sleep paralysis. Like I said earlier, I've only had a few episodes in my life, but they are terrifying and understandable that you don't want them to happen again. Take care of yourself, and remember, your health is your #1 priority, not your doctor's #1 priority (no matter how wonderful a doctor might be, he/she goes home at night without your difficulties affecting him/her), so you must be proactive. I know insurance can be a problem, but try to get other opinions on what your course of treatment should be. Take care!
> Sorry Marg got so wound up in the last post I forgot the most important thing. My Drs agreed when I had my SP episodes that if they continued they'd would refer me to a sleep disorders clinic as SP can be related to narcolepsy. I have a friend who went to one for sleep apnea and says is it was the best thing he's even done. There are specialist sleep centres all over so it may be worth checking out.
>
> Good luck.
Posted by Marg on February 7, 2005, at 11:08:57
In reply to Effexor withdrawal symptoms!, posted by Becky on October 2, 1999, at 22:03:30
Thanks everyone for your advice and input. I'm sticking with trying to come off the AD's but I'm not liking the SP (fear of going to sleep makes me more tired therefore making the chance of SP happening more likely).
In all coming off Effexor is not pleasant, bad headaches, dizziness, vision problems and I'm itchy all over!! Is itchiness common? I've got skin peeling off me!Oh and my Doc said nothing about monitoring me as I'm coming off them. He just said this is your last packet. Nothing about going to see him again or anything!
But it seems to me I should go anyway and tell him the score.
Thanks again everyone and I hope you are all well.
Take care of yourselves.
Marg
Posted by ed_uk on February 7, 2005, at 11:59:57
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal symptoms!, posted by Marg on February 7, 2005, at 11:08:57
Hello,
Good luck Marg :-)
Remember to reduce the dose gradually.
If you take the capsules, here is a helpful link........
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20041228/msgs/435329.html
If you take the tablets.......
Invest in a tablet cutter! You should be able to buy one at a pharmacy.
Ed.
Posted by Laura Lynn on February 7, 2005, at 13:41:32
In reply to Ever tried cold turkey?, posted by Camille Dumont on November 8, 2003, at 19:48:05
I found this site last night, which at the moment is a real blessing. After switching jobs I no longer had health insurance and chose to slowly taper off the Effexor until my prescription ran out. I am convinced that I no longer need it due to various reasons, that doesn't matter at the moment. My last pill was a few days ago. Yesterday I started getting the usual dizzy spells and upset stomach like anytime I missed a dose.
The thought that this spinning in my head can continue for days is enough to make you go mad. I am furious with my psych who said Effexor and similiar drugs are not addictive. I knew all along it was crap, but that he lied to me is just not tight. I am going through a living nightmare. Thank God, that my husband is so supportive, who at this very minute is out getting me lots of fruits, vegetables and every vitamin I have studied that will improve my health.
I don't know what is worse, the spinning in my head, the nightmares, or the non-stop crying!!! Luckily I am self-employed and can spend the time I need at home getting plenty of rest. I know for sure that I will get through this with some time, taking care of myself and reading how others made it on this message board.
Crying but standing strong (even if a little unbalanced)!!
Posted by Laura Lynn on February 7, 2005, at 13:50:27
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by jbc on November 11, 2003, at 8:21:32
> Thanks Karen! I know about the dizziness. At some points I feel like I did the time my aunt accidentally gave me 4x as much cough medicine as she should have when I was about 6 yrs old. I went from side to side down the hall - first bumping into one wall, then the other. Too funny!
>
> I finally gave in & took a day off from work today & shared with my boss what was going on. I hadn't even told him about what I was experiencing. I guess there was a shame issue going on. Has anyone else experienced that when trying to explain everything to folks in your life? Just curious!All of my friends and colleagues knew I took Effexor (300mg/day). I never made it a secret seeing that I am bipolar, which only needed treatment due to bad marriage and bad job (both fixed now). Even though self-employed I do need to inform people of why I'm not in the office. Everyone is very very supportive. I can nor could ever be ashamed of something that is not my fault.
Posted by Jiggitykid on February 7, 2005, at 16:00:16
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal symptoms!, posted by Marg on February 7, 2005, at 11:08:57
Hi Marg,
I think your doctor does need to know that he is uninformed/ignorant of the effects of effexor. Perhaps you could print out some of the testimonials here and take them. Also, itchiness is common - my feet itched, but only my feet. Others have experienced the all-over itching like you are. Benedryl, if you can stand the sleepiness and aren't taking another antihistamine, can help.
Take care!!
> Thanks everyone for your advice and input. I'm sticking with trying to come off the AD's but I'm not liking the SP (fear of going to sleep makes me more tired therefore making the chance of SP happening more likely).
> In all coming off Effexor is not pleasant, bad headaches, dizziness, vision problems and I'm itchy all over!! Is itchiness common? I've got skin peeling off me!
>
> Oh and my Doc said nothing about monitoring me as I'm coming off them. He just said this is your last packet. Nothing about going to see him again or anything!
> But it seems to me I should go anyway and tell him the score.
> Thanks again everyone and I hope you are all well.
> Take care of yourselves.
> Marg
>
Posted by Jiggitykid on February 7, 2005, at 16:10:11
In reply to Re: Ever tried cold turkey?, posted by Laura Lynn on February 7, 2005, at 13:41:32
Bless your heart! I'm praying for you. We've all been in your shoes, one way or another. I have been off of effexor for a little over a year. As horrible as you feel, it WILL get better. You've got three things in your favor right now, 1) a supportive husband, 2) time off and 3) this board! You know that the symptoms are real and you're not crazy or very ill, as most of us thought before finding this board. Give yourself plenty of time to get this out of your system. Be especially cautious of driving, particularly at night. The vision problems caused halos and sparkles with the lights, and I had to refrain from driving at night for a couple of weeks. For me, the worst symptoms were over in two weeks, the majority in a month, and the emotionalism in about two months. The great part that you might not have reached yet is that many of your senses which may have been dulled will come roaring back, and that's cool. For me, colors were brighter, days were sunnier, music was more beautiful, and, let's just say my husband benefitted greatly from the return of another sense that had been dulled. . .Take care of yourself and give yourself plenty of space and time to get well. Sign the petition (look through the archives and you'll find the link). Also, you might consider sending your doctor information from this site. Hang in there!
> I found this site last night, which at the moment is a real blessing. After switching jobs I no longer had health insurance and chose to slowly taper off the Effexor until my prescription ran out. I am convinced that I no longer need it due to various reasons, that doesn't matter at the moment. My last pill was a few days ago. Yesterday I started getting the usual dizzy spells and upset stomach like anytime I missed a dose.
>
> The thought that this spinning in my head can continue for days is enough to make you go mad. I am furious with my psych who said Effexor and similiar drugs are not addictive. I knew all along it was crap, but that he lied to me is just not tight. I am going through a living nightmare. Thank God, that my husband is so supportive, who at this very minute is out getting me lots of fruits, vegetables and every vitamin I have studied that will improve my health.
>
> I don't know what is worse, the spinning in my head, the nightmares, or the non-stop crying!!! Luckily I am self-employed and can spend the time I need at home getting plenty of rest. I know for sure that I will get through this with some time, taking care of myself and reading how others made it on this message board.
>
> Crying but standing strong (even if a little unbalanced)!!
Posted by Jiggitykid on February 7, 2005, at 16:14:09
In reply to Re: Effexor Withdrawl - I did it, so can you, posted by jbc on November 11, 2003, at 8:21:32
Sadly, there is still a stigma attached, isn't there? I had to fight the urge to keep quiet. I told the people I loved what was going on, and found that most of them were very understanding and receptive. Even though my doc wanted to put me on another anti-depressant, I said no, because I felt that I needed to get all of the mess out of my system so that I would know what was really "me," now. For others, I know that this isn't the right decision - it's up to each person what the right thing is to do.
BTW, LOL about the cough medicine. I remember one time, when I was about four, we had communion at church (Protestant, now) with real wine. I seemed to really like it, so after church, I snuck behind the altar railing and drank what was left in several of the teeny cups left on the rail. Boy, was I wobbly! My parents have never let me forget it, either, considering I come from a T-totalling family :=)!!
> Thanks Karen! I know about the dizziness. At some points I feel like I did the time my aunt accidentally gave me 4x as much cough medicine as she should have when I was about 6 yrs old. I went from side to side down the hall - first bumping into one wall, then the other. Too funny!
>
> I finally gave in & took a day off from work today & shared with my boss what was going on. I hadn't even told him about what I was experiencing. I guess there was a shame issue going on. Has anyone else experienced that when trying to explain everything to folks in your life? Just curious!
Posted by Laura Lynn on February 7, 2005, at 18:40:16
In reply to Re: Ever tried cold turkey? » Laura Lynn, posted by Jiggitykid on February 7, 2005, at 16:10:11
> Bless your heart! I'm praying for you. We've all been in your shoes, one way or another. I have been off of effexor for a little over a year. As horrible as you feel, it WILL get better. You've got three things in your favor right now, 1) a supportive husband, 2) time off and 3) this board! You know that the symptoms are real and you're not crazy or very ill, as most of us thought before finding this board. Give yourself plenty of time to get this out of your system. Be especially cautious of driving, particularly at night. The vision problems caused halos and sparkles with the lights, and I had to refrain from driving at night for a couple of weeks. For me, the worst symptoms were over in two weeks, the majority in a month, and the emotionalism in about two months. The great part that you might not have reached yet is that many of your senses which may have been dulled will come roaring back, and that's cool. For me, colors were brighter, days were sunnier, music was more beautiful, and, let's just say my husband benefitted greatly from the return of another sense that had been dulled. . .Take care of yourself and give yourself plenty of space and time to get well. Sign the petition (look through the archives and you'll find the link). Also, you might consider sending your doctor information from this site. Hang in there!
>
Thank you so much for your reply. Means alot! I've been reading alot about the itching and you replied to someone it was your feet. Here I've been going crazy in the evening and couldn't figure out for the life of me what it was. :-) That actually make me giggle.
Posted by Damos on February 7, 2005, at 19:19:56
In reply to Re: Effexor withdrawal symptoms!, posted by Marg on February 7, 2005, at 11:08:57
Hi Marg, yep the itching is pertty common. Fortunately mine is mainly on the forearms and backs of the hands (don't know how I would have coped with itchy feet like Jigitykid!). I'm actually at home today as the dizziness got really bad (had a couple of accidental meetings with walls at work yesterday), and just couldn't walk in a straight line. We have an expression in Oz called "having your wobbly boots on", and even though I'm barefoot at the moment mine are really groovin'. Good luck and God bless.
Posted by Damos on February 7, 2005, at 19:42:22
In reply to Re: Ever tried cold turkey?, posted by Laura Lynn on February 7, 2005, at 13:41:32
G'Day Laura,
It sure is a blessing and a relief to find this place isn't it. Welcome! I'm at home today too - actually having a lot of trouble even hitting the right keys consistently. I can only reiterate some of the things Jiggitykid has said about being careful about driving (especially at night), I made a conscious decision not to until I'm sure all the flickering lights and sensations of movement in the corners of my eyes have gone. Not to mention the zapps, the dizziness etc, etc. Fun isn't it. And to think my partner still thinks the whole thing is BS. Luckily my bosses are great (and already thought I was a fruit bat anyway).
One of the best things I done in the last couple of years has been to see an energetic healer (kinesiologist) on a regular basis. She is intuitive and empathetic and wonderful. I don't claim to understand what she does but I know it really works for me. I've also found Tai Chi great (I'm lousy at it just for he record), Pinnochio would be an appropriate image. I've also expereimented with some Australian Bush Flower Essences which you blend and put about 4 drops under your tongue every few hours or so. Pretty sure you could get these over then net, and I knew from the first few drop that the blend I had was right for me. If anyone wants to know more you can babble-mail me and we can talk more. Right now I think I'm going to go and fall down somewhere before I drop of my perch.
Take care and good luck, you're in my thoughts.
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