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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by barbaracat on January 1, 2005, at 19:02:08
In reply to Re: Light box - Vitamin D? » barbaracat, posted by katia on January 1, 2005, at 4:37:46
Dear Katia,
That's very sweet of you to say that. I've been told I'm too hard on myself by many others, but somehow, coming from you it's very special and allows me to hear it. I'd tend to take something like that more seriously from someone who's had her wok puked in.Alot of it is also how physically crummy and depressed I feel the next day, and when I'm depressed I tend to lost perspective and beat myself up (sure, that's just what I need, kick her when she's down). Anyhow, I enjoyed a nice bottle of champers and some toasts of scotch last night with no blank memory holes at all and feel great today. It's those blank parts in the evening that worry me cause I usually end up doing something assinine - my bipolar juvanile delinquent usually shows up.
No way I'm going to give up liquor. As long as I can drink in moderation to keep my memories of the evening, and get enough sleep and water, I'll be toasting on over to the Other Side - with Rock and Merlin of course (wonder what they'd imbibe?). Talk to you later on in this New Year. Love, B.
> Good to hear from you my friend Barbara!
> And a VERY happy new year to you, love.
> I'm glad you feel resolved in working things out for the new year and calling Theresa...I think you should anyway.
>
> Hey, you know one thing I noticed right away with you "the next morning"? YOu carry so much guilt. And the morning after is your way of cleansing and getting clear I saw. You were pledging sobriety before the coffee was served! I admire your resolve, but I also want to say, don't be so damn hard on yourself! You're tying yourself in knots! I think this is where a life coach can really support you. Whether you quit or not, but just getting a grip on the perspective you're choosing. I wholly heartedly encourage you to contact her Madame Barabara!
>
> Happy Happy New year to you, you lovely soul.
> Katia
Posted by resa on January 20, 2005, at 20:16:50
In reply to Re: Light box - Vitamin D?, posted by katia on December 30, 2004, at 20:15:14
Hello, This is my first time, so... it's scary? (in a good way)
Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone out there has other chronic illnesses that make significant contributions to their moods - like rhuematoid arthritis?I was diagnosed with JRA at 11, and have been suffering with chronic pain and fatigue for 20 years. The past year has been tremenedously difficult and I have sought out psychological help and been prescribed anti-depressents like wellbutrin and lexapro (with no great results). Because of chronic arthritic pain, fibromyalgia, bone degeneration in the TM joint, slippage at C1-C2, and severe arthritis in C4-5, I have also been on many other drugs like neurontin, zyprexa, vicodin, mobic, skelaxin, diazepam, AMITRIPTYLINE, GABAPENTIN, CYCLOBENZAPRINE, LEVAQUIN, and SULFAMETH to ease the suffering (again, with no great benefit). In December there was an overload (or more accurately, a meltdown) and I was in the ICU from an overdose of Elavil (amitriptyline). It's now become painfully clear that the highs/lows are bipolar manic/depressive episodes and dangerous to myself and my relationships. I always just thought I was naturally enthusiastic.
My question I guess is this: with a chronic illness that is so heavily integrated with your moods, how do you know which to treat first and how? I know I feel better when my body doesn't hurt (treat the physical side!), but I also know that my body doesn't hurt as much when I am in a good mood (treat the mind!). I feel like all of my doctors are on different pages and they are all just guessing! How can you get full mind and body care?
I've always felt like I need the highs to make up for the lows, but finally I am in a relationship that I want to stick around and my constant mood swings, irritablitly and unpredictability are wearing thin on both of us.Any thoughts or advice would be cherished.
Resa.
Posted by iris2 on January 21, 2005, at 9:37:34
In reply to Mood stabilizers and Juvenile Rhuematoid Arthritis, posted by resa on January 20, 2005, at 20:16:50
I have had major depression for most of my life but in the past ten years or so have had a chronic decease of interstitial cystitis (a diseased of the bladder
To you question. I am not sure I have the answers for you. For me it is an emotional decision about which illness I am currently trying to work with more. It seems that as soon as I get one a little better the other illness becomes the vital one to treat. For me whichever one is bothering me more at the moment is the one I want to focus on. I think it makes some sense as you eloquently wrote that the emotional affects the physical and visa versa. One does not want to go quickly from one to the other with no results however. I think it is a balancing act. You need to have your doctor’s listen to you but at the same time be able to listen to them. One specialist might focus more on what he is trained to. I had a psychiatrist who was well versed with people with chronic pain and his ability to have empathy for it and me I have found to be very helpful. I suggest that you find at least one treating doctor who has the ability to treat or at least take into account both your illnesses at once. In the end only you know for sure what is needed in the immediate. For me it also took some experience with the illnesses so the doctor’s input initially was more helpful. You know what your personal goals are in your life and need to tailor your treatments to meet those goals.
irene
Posted by barbaracat on January 21, 2005, at 10:43:29
In reply to Mood stabilizers and Juvenile Rhuematoid Arthritis, posted by resa on January 20, 2005, at 20:16:50
Dear Resa, welcome to our group. I can relate quite well with your dilemma since so much of it is familiar. I have fibromyalgia, which began to surface in earnest in 1998. Along with my long-standing mood disorder, this extra physical burden made life unbearable. Many physical problems were associated, hypothyroidism, irritable bowel syndrome, etc.
I'd always believed a had major depression and was being treated for it. I never associated my particular symptoms with what you typically hear about bipolar so never made the connection. The serotonin drugs worked OK for a while but eventually turned against me big time and my life became one big constant panic attack and physical pain. My pdocs would just increase the SSRI's.
A few years ago, mainly due to this board, I suggested to my pdoc that I might be bipolar and we tried lithium. It took a little while for my chemistry to settle down, but it was definitely the right decision. I'm no means 'better' but feel I have my life back, and many of my other symptoms have improved. Prior to this, the stress from trying to deal with my horrible emotional state was wearing me out.
If you're bipolar, you must treat that first. That's an unwritten credo. Nothing else is going to 'take' in your emotional or physical treatments and believe me, it does not get better on it's own but worsens with time. You may still need a serotonin based med (so much of the problems you mention and I deal with have some basis in a serotonin disorder) but without a successful mood stabilizer, the typical antidepressants are poison for a bipolar.
You might also look into seeing a nutritionally oriented physician. I had alot of hormonal testing, intestinal bacterial tests, blood sugar, etc. and there were quite a few things off. Who knows what contributes to what and it's all interrelated. You've got to approach it from all levels. But to give it a fighting chance, you need to remove that huge neurological bottleneck. I'm grateful that lithium worked so well for me. It's allowed other meds to work better as well. But there are others out there that work better for other people. Such a trial and error business. You'd think we'd be able to have a full diagnostic body scan by now instead of this dart-board approach. Good luck and keep us posted. - BarbaraCat
Hello, This is my first time, so... it's scary? (in a good way)
> Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone out there has other chronic illnesses that make significant contributions to their moods - like rhuematoid arthritis?
>
> I was diagnosed with JRA at 11, and have been suffering with chronic pain and fatigue for 20 years. The past year has been tremenedously difficult and I have sought out psychological help and been prescribed anti-depressents like wellbutrin and lexapro (with no great results). Because of chronic arthritic pain, fibromyalgia, bone degeneration in the TM joint, slippage at C1-C2, and severe arthritis in C4-5, I have also been on many other drugs like neurontin, zyprexa, vicodin, mobic, skelaxin, diazepam, AMITRIPTYLINE, GABAPENTIN, CYCLOBENZAPRINE, LEVAQUIN, and SULFAMETH to ease the suffering (again, with no great benefit). In December there was an overload (or more accurately, a meltdown) and I was in the ICU from an overdose of Elavil (amitriptyline). It's now become painfully clear that the highs/lows are bipolar manic/depressive episodes and dangerous to myself and my relationships. I always just thought I was naturally enthusiastic.
>
> My question I guess is this: with a chronic illness that is so heavily integrated with your moods, how do you know which to treat first and how? I know I feel better when my body doesn't hurt (treat the physical side!), but I also know that my body doesn't hurt as much when I am in a good mood (treat the mind!). I feel like all of my doctors are on different pages and they are all just guessing! How can you get full mind and body care?
>
>
> I've always felt like I need the highs to make up for the lows, but finally I am in a relationship that I want to stick around and my constant mood swings, irritablitly and unpredictability are wearing thin on both of us.
>
> Any thoughts or advice would be cherished.
>
> Resa.
Posted by Ritch on January 21, 2005, at 11:58:07
In reply to Mood stabilizers and Juvenile Rhuematoid Arthritis, posted by resa on January 20, 2005, at 20:16:50
> Hello, This is my first time, so... it's scary? (in a good way)
> Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone out there has other chronic illnesses that make significant contributions to their moods - like rhuematoid arthritis?
>
> I was diagnosed with JRA at 11, and have been suffering with chronic pain and fatigue for 20 years. The past year has been tremenedously difficult and I have sought out psychological help and been prescribed anti-depressents like wellbutrin and lexapro (with no great results). Because of chronic arthritic pain, fibromyalgia, bone degeneration in the TM joint, slippage at C1-C2, and severe arthritis in C4-5, I have also been on many other drugs like neurontin, zyprexa, vicodin, mobic, skelaxin, diazepam, AMITRIPTYLINE, GABAPENTIN, CYCLOBENZAPRINE, LEVAQUIN, and SULFAMETH to ease the suffering (again, with no great benefit). In December there was an overload (or more accurately, a meltdown) and I was in the ICU from an overdose of Elavil (amitriptyline). It's now become painfully clear that the highs/lows are bipolar manic/depressive episodes and dangerous to myself and my relationships. I always just thought I was naturally enthusiastic.
>
> My question I guess is this: with a chronic illness that is so heavily integrated with your moods, how do you know which to treat first and how? I know I feel better when my body doesn't hurt (treat the physical side!), but I also know that my body doesn't hurt as much when I am in a good mood (treat the mind!). I feel like all of my doctors are on different pages and they are all just guessing! How can you get full mind and body care?
>
>
> I've always felt like I need the highs to make up for the lows, but finally I am in a relationship that I want to stick around and my constant mood swings, irritablitly and unpredictability are wearing thin on both of us.
>
> Any thoughts or advice would be cherished.
>
> Resa.
Hi Resa, you might want to consider trying out Tegretol if you haven't already (you didn't list your current mood stabilizer). Tegretol has been used for a long time for chronic pain syndromes and works really well for bipolar. Hope this helps some-- Mitch
Posted by maisy24 on January 28, 2005, at 16:00:23
In reply to Cyclothymia & mood stabilizers, posted by andrewb on August 7, 1999, at 10:33:51
hi i have just been diagnosed with cyclothymin and am 24 with 2 small children-i always new that there was something wrong because of my highs and lows so in a way am glad of finally having a diagnoses and not feeling like a hypocondriac-any advice would be welcome-am on sertraline at the mo but the doc wants 2 try me on something different in a couple of months-some drug that is sometimes used 4 epileptics-have only just started readin up on this so will know more soon-any advice would b much appreciated.
Posted by maisy24 on January 28, 2005, at 16:00:44
In reply to Cyclothymia & mood stabilizers, posted by andrewb on August 7, 1999, at 10:33:51
hi i have just been diagnosed with cyclothymin and am 24 with 2 small children-i always new that there was something wrong because of my highs and lows so in a way am glad of finally having a diagnoses and not feeling like a hypocondriac-any advice would be welcome-am on sertraline at the mo but the doc wants 2 try me on something different in a couple of months-some drug that is sometimes used 4 epileptics-have only just started readin up on this so will know more soon-any advice would b much appreciated.
Posted by Elainep on February 2, 2005, at 18:06:45
In reply to Re: Light box - Vitamin D? » katia, posted by barbaracat on December 30, 2004, at 14:32:03
Hi Katia and Barbaracat and Lar:
My daughter had depression last year and eventually was diagnosed with vit D deficiency after she had a simple blood test. She was given a megadose of vitamin d, and within a week all her symptoms disappeared. I'm convinced vit d deficiency is a probable cause of many depressions: I've included a comprehensive link below with good links to studies about vitamin d: scientists are discovering all the time new links with vit d deficiency and disease, check this out for all of you who suffer depression. It's very easy to have one blood test done to check out your vit D levels, supplements are probably too slow for any rapid improvement and there are always worries about overdosing on vit D so blood tests are the only safe way to go. But really, it's so easy to test for, my daughter has been fabulous for the nine months since her megadose, she just had her blood retested and it had dropped a bit despite supplementing on a good Solgar product (a vit d only product from the UK, the US solgar products include vit A) so the doctor is giving her another dose before we go into winter (we live in New Zealand). Anyway check out the site below, there's one study on it that showed vit d was far more effective than light boxes. This is not new-age stuff, I'm a scientist with a PhD and when my daughter was ill we tried all kinds of non-proven things (magnetic pulsing, light boxes, omega three oil) vitamin d was the one that worked, simply and conclusively.Good luck everyone
Elaine
http://www.cholecalciferol-council.com/major_depression.htm
> Hi Katia,
> That's great news. Just curious, do you get the same kind of depressions in the summer? If so, could it be not getting enough sunlight in the Summer as well? In other words, do you think there's something about the time of year itself or is it lack of sunlight no matter what time of year? Makes me wonder about getting enough Vitamin D.
>
> BTW, adding 1 capsule of the Flora full-spectrum SJW did the trick, feels as good as it did before. Chemistry is amazing. - Barbara
>
>
> > What kind do you have?
> > I have the apollo IV and it works. I snapped out of it almost right away.
>
>
Posted by Quincy on March 5, 2005, at 1:06:04
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers, posted by maisy24 on January 28, 2005, at 16:00:44
I'm 20 years old, i havent actually been diagnosed with Cyclothymia, actually, the best that I've done is seen a counselor who simply passed off my mood swings as something related to my friends graduating from school and me feeling the loss of them a little too personally. However, I really feel like I may have Cyclothymia, or something else that's effecting me, because the i suppose, depressive times arent really triggered by anything that i can pin down, and For the past year I've been having major mood swings -- the downs are always much more obvious than the ups, and I Only recently noticed that they are in a pattern.
For a few days every few weeks my life will simply seem too much to cope with. Its about at least three days every three weeks I would guess when i'm feeling "down". - I will be tired and not able to sleep, and then once I do get to sleep its the hardest thing in the world to wake up again. - I always feel better if I can just sleep for three days straight and not deal with anything. I am really into the arts as a lot of you said you were, I paint and draw, and spit out stories, and I never actually concidered my creative impulses to be a part of my cycle, but the more I think of it and the more I read about you all, the more things seem to make sense. The reason I was reading these posts is because I've been worried about my mood swings, because when I feel down, I feel DOWN, and thats just not right, I mean, something is really wrong.
So I was wondering, sort of, How can I deal with this and not have to go to a psychiatrist or counselor, how can I deal with it by not having to take medication? Is it possible, I mean, does talking about it really help? Because I find it awfully hard to talk about it while I'm down, and harder still to talk about it when I'm feeling good because I just dont want to go there. Is that fair of me to ask? I just feel like the swings are taking me lower and lower which is why it's come to my notice that maybe there is something actually wrong with my brain and not just me being socially incapable or something.thanks
Posted by sac on March 5, 2005, at 6:49:20
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers, posted by Quincy on March 5, 2005, at 1:06:04
Hi there, I'm glad you came to this board because I know it has helped me tremendously over the years. I'm 36 year year old mother of two with bipolar II. I'm currently taking Lithium and Prozac. I've basically tried all the mood stabilizers out there. My history was depression for about 14 years and then after my pregnancies I developed mood cycling. I, too, didn't correlate the pattern for quite a while but fortunately I was being treated by a psychiatrist at the time for depression and he suggested that I need a mood stabilizing medication. I resisted this advice for about 1 1/2 years and continued on the roller coaster of mood swings which was hell. Now, I am happy to say that I like Lithium and I am pretty stable...it's a great feeling. I understand that you may not want to go the medication route as I was also reluctant. It depends on how severly you mood cycling affects your life. Many people opt to live with it and adjust without medication and that is fine. For me, I found, it got progressively worse to the point where the depressions became suicidal ones and (for my kids sake) I just needed to be able to calm that cycling and gain some predictability with my emotions. Sorry for the long post. My advice is don't be afraid of psychiatrists or medication. It saved my life. It's a great thing to have stability which many take for granted. Mood disorders, especially cyclothymia, often have a biological basis and many times medication is the main solution. This board will be very helpful for providing you with support and encouragement which is wonderful. But, as you say, when you are down you probably won't post as I did not and that's when you need the support the most. Good luck. Let us know how you are doing.
> I'm 20 years old, i havent actually been diagnosed with Cyclothymia, actually, the best that I've done is seen a counselor who simply passed off my mood swings as something related to my friends graduating from school and me feeling the loss of them a little too personally. However, I really feel like I may have Cyclothymia, or something else that's effecting me, because the i suppose, depressive times arent really triggered by anything that i can pin down, and For the past year I've been having major mood swings -- the downs are always much more obvious than the ups, and I Only recently noticed that they are in a pattern.
>
> For a few days every few weeks my life will simply seem too much to cope with. Its about at least three days every three weeks I would guess when i'm feeling "down". - I will be tired and not able to sleep, and then once I do get to sleep its the hardest thing in the world to wake up again. - I always feel better if I can just sleep for three days straight and not deal with anything. I am really into the arts as a lot of you said you were, I paint and draw, and spit out stories, and I never actually concidered my creative impulses to be a part of my cycle, but the more I think of it and the more I read about you all, the more things seem to make sense. The reason I was reading these posts is because I've been worried about my mood swings, because when I feel down, I feel DOWN, and thats just not right, I mean, something is really wrong.
>
> So I was wondering, sort of, How can I deal with this and not have to go to a psychiatrist or counselor, how can I deal with it by not having to take medication? Is it possible, I mean, does talking about it really help? Because I find it awfully hard to talk about it while I'm down, and harder still to talk about it when I'm feeling good because I just dont want to go there. Is that fair of me to ask? I just feel like the swings are taking me lower and lower which is why it's come to my notice that maybe there is something actually wrong with my brain and not just me being socially incapable or something.
>
> thanks
Posted by SLS on March 5, 2005, at 7:15:43
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers, posted by Quincy on March 5, 2005, at 1:06:04
Hi.
Can you better describe your "UP" periods?
How long do these periods last?
- Scott
Posted by Elainep on March 5, 2005, at 15:20:04
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers, posted by Quincy on March 5, 2005, at 1:06:04
Hi Quincy
Your symptoms sound so creepily similar to my daughter's that I wanted to reply. I've written elsewhere on this post, see the whole set of
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050131/msgs/451955.html
But what I want to ask you, before you continue to see a counselor or seek out a psychiatrist, is some lifestyle questions.
You see, my daughter eventually was diagnosed with a severe vitamin D deficiency and she never had to see a psychiatrist at all in the end.
So what I want you to ask yourself is, do you see less sun than you did as a child, or 5 years ago, for any reason? Do you have an indoor lifestyle? Do you have any other symptoms like a sore back or (I know this will sound kind of weird) a clicking jaw? If you've travelled to another time zone, has that brought on a 'low' incident? Do you have any scoleosis (curved spine) or other structural skeletal anomolies?
If you think you're not a very sunshine kind of person, and you don't eat much oily fish or egg yolks on a regular basis, you could be suffering from vit D deficiency, even if you eat vit D fortified foods (which are generally fortified with vit D2 rather than D3).
Regardless, it might be worth checking this connection out, before you take anything else any further. If you follow the thread I gave in the ref above, you'll find a whole lot of references I've posted that refer to the fact that vit D deficiency is becoming widespread in the population again, and one of the symptoms is depression. Cyclothymia is what what my daughter had, she'd be okay for a couple of weeks, then come down again for 3 or 4 days. It was definitely a pattern with no triggering incidents that we could see. AND it happened at the end of the summer, not in the middle of the winter like SAD is supposed to express itself. It turned out she just hadn't been getting enough sun (for years) and had a major deficiency. I should also say that I have a minor vit D deficiency myself , despite seeing an awful lot more sun than my daughter. I'm neither sun seeking nor sun avoiding.
So if you're wanting to check out alternatives before you go the whole hog of medication, please check out my other posts and read about my daughter's story.
Good luck
Elainep
Posted by barbaracat on March 5, 2005, at 22:01:04
In reply to Re: Light box - Vitamin D?, posted by Elainep on February 2, 2005, at 18:06:45
Hi Elaine,
My doctor recently went to a symposium about Vitamin D's effect on osteoporosis and depression and was excited about what she learned. What was fascinating is that it doesn't seem to matter how much sun you get if you're in a high geographic latitude. Apparently, in order for the sun's rays to stimulate receptors, the angle has to be within a range. The Northwest where I live falls outside the latitude range and theoretically, everyone here needs Vit D (explains why everyone seems depressed here).Unfortunately, light boxes stimulate melatonin but don't take care of this Vit D problem. Do you know what dosages are in the megadose range? I'd sure like to start supplementing before waiting for an appointment, test results, etc.
> My daughter had depression last year and eventually was diagnosed with vit D deficiency after she had a simple blood test. She was given a megadose of vitamin d, and within a week all her symptoms disappeared. I'm convinced vit d deficiency is a probable cause of many depressions: I've included a comprehensive link below with good links to studies about vitamin d: scientists are discovering all the time new links with vit d deficiency and disease, check this out for all of you who suffer depression. It's very easy to have one blood test done to check out your vit D levels, supplements are probably too slow for any rapid improvement and there are always worries about overdosing on vit D so blood tests are the only safe way to go. But really, it's so easy to test for, my daughter has been fabulous for the nine months since her megadose, she just had her blood retested and it had dropped a bit despite supplementing on a good Solgar product (a vit d only product from the UK, the US solgar products include vit A) so the doctor is giving her another dose before we go into winter (we live in New Zealand). Anyway check out the site below, there's one study on it that showed vit d was far more effective than light boxes. This is not new-age stuff, I'm a scientist with a PhD and when my daughter was ill we tried all kinds of non-proven things (magnetic pulsing, light boxes, omega three oil) vitamin d was the one that worked, simply and conclusively.
>
> Good luck everyone
>
> Elaine
>
> http://www.cholecalciferol-council.com/major_depression.htm
>
>
> > Hi Katia,
> > That's great news. Just curious, do you get the same kind of depressions in the summer? If so, could it be not getting enough sunlight in the Summer as well? In other words, do you think there's something about the time of year itself or is it lack of sunlight no matter what time of year? Makes me wonder about getting enough Vitamin D.
> >
> > BTW, adding 1 capsule of the Flora full-spectrum SJW did the trick, feels as good as it did before. Chemistry is amazing. - Barbara
> >
> >
> > > What kind do you have?
> > > I have the apollo IV and it works. I snapped out of it almost right away.
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by banga on March 6, 2005, at 1:41:03
In reply to Re: Light box - Vitamin D? » Elainep, posted by barbaracat on March 5, 2005, at 22:01:04
Hello,
I do not have a bipolar range diagnosis--at least for now--but the first thing that comes to mind as something non-medication to try is fish oil to get omega-3 essential fatty acids. Some studies show it can be very effective for bipolar disorder. Something to read up on, and definitely check in on the alternative board on this site if you have not already posted there RE amounts, brands that are recommended.
You might consider visiting a psychiatrist just to officially look into this and verify diagnosis...you can always say no to medication for now.
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 6, 2005, at 8:51:06
In reply to Re: Light box - Vitamin D? » Elainep, posted by barbaracat on March 5, 2005, at 22:01:04
> Unfortunately, light boxes stimulate melatonin but don't take care of this Vit D problem. Do you know what dosages are in the megadose range? I'd sure like to start supplementing before waiting for an appointment, test results, etc.
The RDA has fairly recently been bumped up to 400 IU, but investigations based on the normalization of parathyroid/calcium levels show that the RDA should actually be near 1600. The megadose therapy for depression is a 100,000 IU bolus. Despite warnings about vitamin D toxicity, there has never been a single report of adverse reactions to this large dose.
Lar
Posted by barbaracat on March 6, 2005, at 13:36:20
In reply to Re: Light box - Vitamin D? » barbaracat, posted by Larry Hoover on March 6, 2005, at 8:51:06
>>The megadose therapy for depression is a 100,000 IU bolus. Despite warnings about vitamin D toxicity, there has never been a single report of adverse reactions to this large dose.
>
**That is HUGE! I guess that's why it's a prescription item. Is this a one-time dose?
Posted by Elainep on March 6, 2005, at 14:11:29
In reply to Re: Light box - Vitamin D? » Larry Hoover, posted by barbaracat on March 6, 2005, at 13:36:20
I'm really excited that your doctor is on to something Barbara, and that Vitamin D is being discussed in medical forums. I'll add my two bits worth about dosage but Larry Hoover is right on the money, as I see he always is on these posts! I think my daughter was given 300,000 iu at once. She was really deficient, I guess that's why. Each pill was 50,000iu and she had six of them. Unless each pill was only 25,000. In all honesty I can't remember. So maybe she was given 150,000iu. In Europe, apparently it's common to give out 250,000 at one time. That's why it's important to test your calcium and phosphorus first though, because of something called hypercalceamia which I'm sure Larry Hoover can explain. So yes, with doses as large as 100,000iu and above, it's important to get a prescription from the doctor.
In the meantime though, with some researchers saying we need 4000iu a day, you could try taking that until the results come in. I'm sure it won't do you any harm for a week or so, and may do some good.
Oh, and about the summer question. My daughter started having what looking like cycling bouts of depression just like Quincy described, with three days down and about ten days 'up' (sometimes really up, hyper-up, one night she moved all of the furniture around in her bedroom at midnight for example) and all of that started at the beginning of summer and went through to the autumn when we finally figured out what was wrong. If you've been depleting for years, it doesn't matter when it happens, I think. Another reason it may not be diagnosed as SAD.
What one doctor told me about vit D is that it's involved in regulation of the mood chemicals through the adrenal glands. So it may not be that you're lacking serotonin or the other mood chems, they're just not being dispensed evenly to your brain.
I'm excited that some of you out there are getting tested: I can't say frequently enough how much it changed the life of my daughter. In hindsight now I see she was getting depleted for years: before the actual episodes of depression she had gradually become more and more withdrawn and had become creatively 'blue' (she wrote about very black things): I put it down to teenage angst but now I really wonder.
She also has scoleosis (a curved spine) which, of course, in hindsight, is a latter teenage development form of rickets, the age old sign of vit D deficiency. The only sign that my second daughter (who was also vit D deficient)had in common with my first daughter (Second daughter had no depression/cyclothymia), was they both noticed their jaws had begun to click.
In adults, soft bone pain and lots of cavities can be a sign of it all too. I'm not sure if I've included somewhere else in my posts an article that fybromyaglia can be undiagnosed osteomalacia, or the adult form of rickets from vit D deficiency.
So vit D is seriously big news, great that you're getting tested Barbara and I know it's hard to be patient about it all. But do be patient, you really don't want to megadose if there's any chance of hypercalcemia so it IS important to have the tests done first.
I can't wait to hear how you get on!
Elainep
Posted by barbaracat on March 6, 2005, at 23:15:05
In reply to Re: Light box - Vitamin D?, posted by Elainep on March 6, 2005, at 14:11:29
Thanks for the reply, Elaine. I'm excited about this too. In my research I discovered that low Vit D levels are linked to hypothyroidism, which I have. I also have fibromyalgia and thyroid has always been a suspect player in that. Those muscle cramps sure feel like hypocalceamia which makes sense since my calcium was tested low, but calcium supplements don't seem to help. My Mom had rickets as a child so there could be a genetic component as well.
Further urine metabolite testing indicated low adrenal sufficiency, so you're comment about adrenals hit home. Wouldn't it be too wonderful if Vitamin D could be at the root of all this? You mention your daughter and Quincy being sympomatic in the Summer. That has always been my worst time. It wouldn't seem like there'd be a vit D shortage in the Summer, but I thought the similarities were indicative of something or other.
I'll get myself 4,000Mg Vit D tomorrow and get myself tested. Will let you know how it goes. - Barbara
Posted by Elainep on March 7, 2005, at 15:09:58
In reply to Re: Light box - Vitamin D? » Elainep, posted by barbaracat on March 6, 2005, at 23:15:05
Wow Barbara!
I don't want to get over-excited here, but my skin was tingling as I read your note. I will SO cross my fingers for you. I have to say, it wouldn't surprise me at all, from what you say about your mother and living in a climate with little sun. If you come back deficient you should scream out loud and jump for joy. I swear Jo was completely better (mood wise) within about 2 or 3 days and has never relapsed since. The bone pain has taken longer to go away (I will warn you of that) but it's no biggie now that she's on an even keel again and socialsing and living life the way she should be doing.
I am so thankful that when Jo got sick there was the beginning of enough scientific evidence around to figure out the cause: hopefully 5 years from now doctors will be testing immediately for vit D deficiency when someone comes in with depression.
Oh, and I have an aunt who was diagnosed with bipolar 40 odd years ago. She lived in northern Ohio, and was found crying in the snow with her new baby inside. Guess what, post partum depression has also been linked to vit d deficiency and I have strong suspiscion now she never had bipolar at all but vit d deficiency. She's old now (78)and has been totally stuffed up from all the drugs they trialled on her over the years and the electrical shock treatment etc (I know things are better now but back in the early 60s they tried everything on her). Anyway I told my cousin (her daughter) about the vit d problem with Jo and she got her mother on to supplements and apparently she's the best she's been for years.
Well life is funny. Oh, I remember you had a question about dosing. Jo was diagnosed at 16 nmol/l (that's the British measurement system: don't know what equiv American is) and the range is meant to be 50-150. After her megadose, her blood was checked again a month later, was 86 nmol/l. As she still wasn't seeing enough sun, I put her on to 400 iu a day and got her tested again 6 months later. She was down to 67 nmol/l, still within normal range but slipping. She's now on 1000iu a day and I'll get her tested in six months again to see if that's the stable dose she needs, or if we even need to go up on that. So the megadose is to kick start you back into the normal range, then you work out your best dosage to maintain it.
Good luck, I have a very strong feeling about this...
Elaine
Posted by jrbecker on March 7, 2005, at 23:17:46
In reply to Re: Light box - Vitamin D?, posted by Elainep on February 2, 2005, at 18:06:45
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20041108/msgs/415830.html
Posted by ClaudiaP on March 8, 2005, at 13:32:41
In reply to Re: cyclothymia, mood stabilizers & Sean's reading, posted by Susan on August 8, 1999, at 21:42:40
> >Have you noticed this change over time? Sometimes I wonder about the sort of long term course of this. I have read that there are physical changes in the brain that might be avoidable if I were to stay on a mood stabilizer more or less permanently.
>
> >Sean.
>
> Sean,
> Do you remember where you read this? Sometimes I wonder if using an antidepressant in the down phase is causing physical changes in my brain that results in faster cycling. But when I am up I am basically just normal so would a mood stabilizer be justified and would the benefits outweigh the risks? If so, which one would you try first? (With Effexor.)
>
> All,
> Reading your posts have assured me that I am not the only person who has cyclothymia symptoms. I only wish I had some of the creativity aspects!
>
> Susan
There is a very good artilce on bpkids.com that discusses the protective effects of lithium and other stabilizers from the neurological damage caused by moodswings.
Posted by Quincy on March 13, 2005, at 21:29:51
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers, posted by Elainep on March 5, 2005, at 15:20:04
i wanted to say thank-you to everyone who replied to my posts, its really comforting, and good to know that people care.
Elaine, I can look into the vitamin D thing, I'm at college in the North East, but its basically the same amount of sunlight that i've always been getting, and over the summer i had a few down periods which is how I know theres a cycle, but thanks for the advice.
In responce to Scott, i wanted to say that my "up's" feel like pure joy at times. just like.... thats the only way to describe it, pure happiness and peace. like, I get extra excited about things and cant wait to share things and work on projects for my friends and create and dance, i mean, i feel like i'm on top of the world and thats exactly where i want to be.
So, I like my ups, because there isnt ever anything Wrong when i feel that way, it's the downs that worry me.
~thanks
Posted by Quincy on March 14, 2005, at 3:15:30
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers, posted by Quincy on March 13, 2005, at 21:29:51
ok, i dont think i did too good of a job explaining my UP's. so i'll try again.
its not just being extra happy, but thats what i mostly feel. Like i get extra energy too. I feel like running around in circles because i'm happy, i guess, well, i look at puppy-dogs who like to run around chasing their tails, and i sort of feel like that. haha. I um, well, right now i cant sleep, but not because my mind is racing with thoughts about everything thats wrong in my life but because i'm excited about something, i guess it feels like the night before my birthday or christmas when theres so much to look forwards to the next day that going to bed just seems like the wrong thing to do. And right now i have an art project, well, several projects, theyre presents for my friends who are gruaduting this spring, and i really want to get up and work on them, but i know that if i dont sleep I probably will be tired tomorrow and i have class that i need to be awake for.
but now i'll go back to the word i used in my last post, happy... Its not just happy or content, its that plus something. There are definate times when I am "hyper" when I notice and everyone else notices that i have extra energy. But because i talk a lot and am really friendly to people anyway, sometimes being "hyper" doesnt feel wrong for lack of a better term. I simply feel extra-happy emotionally... Elated if you will.
And I havent ever really... well, noticing my downs was what made me think that something may be unstable. my ups feel less like somethign that i have to worry about because they feel so good. So, noticing the ups is harder, But I sort of think that I'm in one right now, because I feel extra happy, extra energy, i cant sleep because i'm simply awake, and i want to run around in circles and laugh. not like crazy laugh, but because i'm so happy. happy is the wrong word. its more like right now i feel like i'm a bubble floating up, i'm in no danger of bursting because i just am. i'm round and airy and colourful and floating and smiling because i'm so free and i am me. i feel light. and calm on the inside even though i have extra energy. i dont know, maybe i'm just not describing it the way i want to. but its just open.
Posted by sac on March 14, 2005, at 5:54:27
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers, posted by Quincy on March 14, 2005, at 3:15:30
It sounds like the "expansiveness" they describe as part of the criteria for a manic/hypomanic episode. I've been where you are and I know the high periods are nice but, at least for me, there was a cycle and what goes up always came down....hard. I'd suggest a mood stabilizer eventually. Regards.
> ok, i dont think i did too good of a job explaining my UP's. so i'll try again.
>
> its not just being extra happy, but thats what i mostly feel. Like i get extra energy too. I feel like running around in circles because i'm happy, i guess, well, i look at puppy-dogs who like to run around chasing their tails, and i sort of feel like that. haha. I um, well, right now i cant sleep, but not because my mind is racing with thoughts about everything thats wrong in my life but because i'm excited about something, i guess it feels like the night before my birthday or christmas when theres so much to look forwards to the next day that going to bed just seems like the wrong thing to do. And right now i have an art project, well, several projects, theyre presents for my friends who are gruaduting this spring, and i really want to get up and work on them, but i know that if i dont sleep I probably will be tired tomorrow and i have class that i need to be awake for.
>
> but now i'll go back to the word i used in my last post, happy... Its not just happy or content, its that plus something. There are definate times when I am "hyper" when I notice and everyone else notices that i have extra energy. But because i talk a lot and am really friendly to people anyway, sometimes being "hyper" doesnt feel wrong for lack of a better term. I simply feel extra-happy emotionally... Elated if you will.
>
> And I havent ever really... well, noticing my downs was what made me think that something may be unstable. my ups feel less like somethign that i have to worry about because they feel so good. So, noticing the ups is harder, But I sort of think that I'm in one right now, because I feel extra happy, extra energy, i cant sleep because i'm simply awake, and i want to run around in circles and laugh. not like crazy laugh, but because i'm so happy. happy is the wrong word. its more like right now i feel like i'm a bubble floating up, i'm in no danger of bursting because i just am. i'm round and airy and colourful and floating and smiling because i'm so free and i am me. i feel light. and calm on the inside even though i have extra energy. i dont know, maybe i'm just not describing it the way i want to. but its just open.
Posted by dive407 on April 4, 2005, at 21:45:03
In reply to Re: Cyclothymia mood stabilizers, posted by Elainep on March 5, 2005, at 15:20:04
Hi Elaine and Quincy
I have just begun to investigate cyclothymia and am intrigued by the connection you alluded to between Vit D, hypothyroid, SAD and this rapid cycling I have been experiencing for over 25 years.
We recently returned to southern Canada from 2 weeks of sunshine in Florida and I fell inexplicably into a deep depression. My sister speculated that the crash may be attributable to the return to a cold climate where we generally avoid being outside-expecially after acclimatizing somehat to the warmth of Florida. She suggested I try full spectrum flourescent lighting-and I am just as likely to do that as I am to supplement with Vitamin D.
I work with two adolescent psychiatrists with children in care and thus am cautious about meds. Yet I am actually looking forward to discussing all of this with a psychiatrist in the near future.
I really look forward to reviewing all of the threads written over the past five years and greatly anticipate sharing and (mostly) learning.
regards
Dave
> Hi Quincy
>
> Your symptoms sound so creepily similar to my daughter's that I wanted to reply. I've written elsewhere on this post, see the whole set of
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050131/msgs/451955.html
>
> But what I want to ask you, before you continue to see a counselor or seek out a psychiatrist, is some lifestyle questions.
>
> You see, my daughter eventually was diagnosed with a severe vitamin D deficiency and she never had to see a psychiatrist at all in the end.
>
> So what I want you to ask yourself is, do you see less sun than you did as a child, or 5 years ago, for any reason? Do you have an indoor lifestyle? Do you have any other symptoms like a sore back or (I know this will sound kind of weird) a clicking jaw? If you've travelled to another time zone, has that brought on a 'low' incident? Do you have any scoleosis (curved spine) or other structural skeletal anomolies?
>
> If you think you're not a very sunshine kind of person, and you don't eat much oily fish or egg yolks on a regular basis, you could be suffering from vit D deficiency, even if you eat vit D fortified foods (which are generally fortified with vit D2 rather than D3).
>
> Regardless, it might be worth checking this connection out, before you take anything else any further. If you follow the thread I gave in the ref above, you'll find a whole lot of references I've posted that refer to the fact that vit D deficiency is becoming widespread in the population again, and one of the symptoms is depression. Cyclothymia is what what my daughter had, she'd be okay for a couple of weeks, then come down again for 3 or 4 days. It was definitely a pattern with no triggering incidents that we could see. AND it happened at the end of the summer, not in the middle of the winter like SAD is supposed to express itself. It turned out she just hadn't been getting enough sun (for years) and had a major deficiency. I should also say that I have a minor vit D deficiency myself , despite seeing an awful lot more sun than my daughter. I'm neither sun seeking nor sun avoiding.
>
> So if you're wanting to check out alternatives before you go the whole hog of medication, please check out my other posts and read about my daughter's story.
>
> Good luck
>
> Elainep
>
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