Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 710350

Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 39. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Why your medicine may not help

Posted by Vale on December 4, 2006, at 15:54:34

The hypothesis that depressive states are an adaptive strategy having evolved over the entire evolution of mankind holds largely true in my opinion( Please note I am entitled to an opion here) Any attempts to subvert such a potentialy usefull inbred condition by pharmacalogical means would in the longterm be largely ineffective, While the modest batch of lame antidepressants/mood-stabilizers and anti-pychotics we have available today may provide transitory (imagined or real)relief to a sub-set of " patients"
It holds largely true that attempting "cure" the so called pyschopathologies of our time with man made chemicals are destined to fail, at least in the near to distant future. We simply don't know enough about the most complex organism in the known universe, ie. THE HUMAN BRAIN.
In the future 90% of the chemicals mentioned on these boards will be regarded as sinister state sanctioned experiments, little more appealing or effective than Leeches and blood letting techniques of the middle ages.
Sorry guys,

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help

Posted by linkadge on December 4, 2006, at 16:19:36

In reply to Why your medicine may not help, posted by Vale on December 4, 2006, at 15:54:34

I agree. Depression is a phase that may be an absolutely necessary step for some phase of healing.

Its like if your hand gets burned. Its not that the pain you feel is somehow abnormal. It helps you learn.

Linkadge

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help

Posted by linkadge on December 4, 2006, at 16:23:49

In reply to Why your medicine may not help, posted by Vale on December 4, 2006, at 15:54:34

Collective, depression should send a message to society that something is wrong. If people just keep popping pills then everybody just goes about their lives thinking that the way we do things here in America is just swell.

Linkadge

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help » linkadge

Posted by zmg on December 4, 2006, at 16:53:49

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help, posted by linkadge on December 4, 2006, at 16:23:49

Not to be crass, but I always preferred the 'depression is a luxury of the rich' scenario. Not meaning that depression isn't real or valid, but something that first-world countries will face increasingly as economics become more abstracted, leaving increased opportunity to focus on more esoteric and qualitative aspects of our lives.

And of course our important drive for day to day survival becomes more diluted by comfort and consumerism.

But I think on the other hand, advocates of depression as a biological/genetic disposition have plenty of fodder too: environmental agents, subverted selection, social/religious values/beliefs/practices can all have variously toxic effects.

Lastly (and loftily) perhaps technology is simply a layer of evolution? Maybe changing our state of mind is a basic imperative (our long history with drugs use might suggest it is)? Perhaps combating very real depression is one of the first steps in a more active step in human evolution?

To say we experience something so it must be necessary seems similar to saying because cell growth can be triggered we should embrace cancer.

 

Re: Why your medicine WILL help you. » Vale

Posted by Jay on December 4, 2006, at 17:09:49

In reply to Why your medicine may not help, posted by Vale on December 4, 2006, at 15:54:34

> The hypothesis that depressive states are an adaptive strategy having evolved over the entire evolution of mankind holds largely true in my opinion( Please note I am entitled to an opion here) Any attempts to subvert such a potentialy usefull inbred condition by pharmacalogical means would in the longterm be largely ineffective, While the modest batch of lame antidepressants/mood-stabilizers and anti-pychotics we have available today may provide transitory (imagined or real)relief to a sub-set of " patients"
> It holds largely true that attempting "cure" the so called pyschopathologies of our time with man made chemicals are destined to fail, at least in the near to distant future. We simply don't know enough about the most complex organism in the known universe, ie. THE HUMAN BRAIN.
> In the future 90% of the chemicals mentioned on these boards will be regarded as sinister state sanctioned experiments, little more appealing or effective than Leeches and blood letting techniques of the middle ages.
> Sorry guys,
>

First off, MAJOR depressive states are about as part of our evolutionary needs as cancer. And yes, you are entitled to your "opinion" (Minor depression helped people reflect, gain important insight, and when to retrieve years ago. . This is NOTHING like MAJOR depression, though.)

Second, medications and therapies have ONLY ever claimed to be a therapeutic "band-aid" to problems. If you go on Prozac, then you lose your job and house, you will be just as unhappy as others.There is *no* cure, and I believe nobody ever has said such.

3rd, There will be better treatments, but I doubt a "cure" in the near future. Look, the point here is SYMPTOMS...tame those symptoms, and we can lead great, fulfilling lives.

Jay

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help » Vale

Posted by tensor on December 4, 2006, at 17:19:52

In reply to Why your medicine may not help, posted by Vale on December 4, 2006, at 15:54:34

Interesting, this was what I was thinking about last night when I couldn't sleep (as usual). Many people are embittered by drug companies making profits on our illnesses. I can understand it. But the researchers at the drug companies are trying to find a way to give at least symptomatic relief in the, as you said, perhaps most complex structure in the universe (the brain). NB. not a "cure", we are not anywhere near a cure, we will perhaps never get there.

As the human evolve, so does the human brain, it gets more complex and can undertake more complex problems to solve. If the problem in this case originates from the brain itself (mental disorders) then the researchers in hope of trying to find a cure are like a cat chasing its own tail. It/they can never reach. This is perhaps a pessimistic view, or it's just a realistic. Time will tell.

I agree that e.g. AD's can never work in the long run. The brain or a specific part of it will ultimately find a way around it or adjust to the presence of the drug. Some might say "hey, I have taken Prozac for ten years without a sign of a relapse or symptoms", this could be explained by that the underlying disorder has resolved years ago and you are just taking your med "just in case", i.e. if the med was discontinued the symptoms wouldn't recur.

There is a certain percentage that will have one depression once for, say, three months and never again. I'm not one of them. I believe mine is genetically determined, my brain is hard-wired to have certain levels of substances abundant in the synaptic cleft etc. There's no cure for that, can only hope to find meds that makes me as free of symptoms as possible.

/Mattias

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help

Posted by Edwin Ransom on December 4, 2006, at 17:29:38

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help » linkadge, posted by zmg on December 4, 2006, at 16:53:49

Vale said “The hypothesis that depressive states are an adaptive strategy having evolved over the entire evolution of mankind holds largely true in my opinion( Please note I am entitled to an opion here) “

You’re entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts. Even if evolution selects for depression-susceptible personalities that doesn’t mean that depression can’t be treated pharmacologically. That’s like saying that vasectomies can’t work because evolution selects for fertility.

Linkadge said “if your hand gets burned. Its not that the pain you feel is somehow abnormal. It helps you learn.” I could make the same kind of overgeneralized analogy in favor of the pharmacological approach and say “depression is like a situation where your hand feels like its burning when its not.’ There’s just nothing to learn, all you can do is try to find a way to stop feeling the burning sensation.”

I am sympathetic to the adaptive theory of depression, but not in the form that you two seem to be presenting.

Then zzm said “ I always preferred the 'depression is a luxury of the rich' scenario. Not meaning that depression isn't real or valid, but something that first-world countries will face increasingly as economics become more abstracted, leaving increased opportunity to focus on more esoteric and qualitative aspects of our lives.”

This could be so. But isn’t it just as likely that depression is more common in the 1st world because the 1st world has adopted values and attitudes towards living that make it hard to be happy? Maybe the egoistic focus of modern life leaves something out that the 3rd world still has. I don’t know myself, but I think it’s at least as reasonable as anything anyone has said in this thread.

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help

Posted by Phillipa on December 4, 2006, at 17:35:58

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help, posted by Edwin Ransom on December 4, 2006, at 17:29:38

Well meds don't help me. Love Phillipa ps maybe my hypothoroidism that is now hyper?

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help » zmg

Posted by linkadge on December 4, 2006, at 17:59:53

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help » linkadge, posted by zmg on December 4, 2006, at 16:53:49

Interesting comments. Thank you.

Back in my great grandparent's day, depression wasn't an option.

Now, we've sort of adopted this..."its my right to be non depressed". Says who? Was that the 11th commandment from God to Moses. "I shall provideth an effective antidepressant at all times"

I don't understand when people come here just bewildered at why antidepressants aren't working.

"I pay for my SUV, and therefore it should work". "I pay for my prozac, and therefore I should be happy." "Its my right as an antidperessant consumer to get an effective antidepressant"

But, there are no guarentees in this buisness.


Linkadge

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help

Posted by SLS on December 4, 2006, at 18:11:24

In reply to Why your medicine may not help, posted by Vale on December 4, 2006, at 15:54:34

Major Depressive Disorder (MDD) and Bipolar Disorder (BD) are not normal mood states. They are the result of abnormal brain function. There is much biological evidence to support this conclusion. These are pathological states for which the sufferer deserves remedial treatment. Fortunately, treatments have been discovered that are genuinely effective for the majority of properly diagnosed cases.

Psycho-Babble attracts people who have questions. People who are treated effectively don't have any that need to be answered.

Negativity is easy to entertain where failure is such a common occurrence. It can be infectious. It is easy to feed into. It is counterproductive. It can only reduce success rates. Unfortunately, it seems to be growing.


- Scott

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help

Posted by linkadge on December 4, 2006, at 18:13:00

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help » Vale, posted by tensor on December 4, 2006, at 17:19:52

>There is a certain percentage that will have one >depression once for, say, three months and never >again. I'm not one of them. I believe mine is >genetically determined, my brain is hard-wired >to have certain levels of substances abundant in >the synaptic cleft etc.

But thats the thing. There is no basis for definicany of neurotransmitters in depression.

The fact is that depression almost always gets better on its own. The majority of depression lasts less than a year. Very rarely over a year.

It could very well be a life cycle. After all, the life is a very long and important event.

Its just like how everybody picks at a scab. They think, "yeah yeah, I know how my body works, and I don't like this scab here". So they pick off the scab and it leaves a scar.

If they had just left well enough alone, and let the wound to heal on its own, there would be no scar.

The problem is that depression is a message. It is a message to stop everything you're doing an
give yourself time to heal.

But, antidepressants are all about keeping people productive. We want to speed heal the process, as quickly as possable.


But maybe the process of "speed healing" depression will leave a scar. Its all about this fast paced society. We want everything now. We don't want to wait for anything.

My grandfather had 4 major depressive episodes, each lasting about 8 months. But, when he was well, he was 100% better. None of this hooked on antidepressants, bla bla, I need some augmentation, bla bla, my drug is pooping out, bla bla, I need more norepinephrine, bla bla, I'm impotent, bla bla, polypharamchology, bla bla.


I digress,

Linkadge


 

Re: Why your medicine may not help

Posted by linkadge on December 4, 2006, at 18:22:51

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help, posted by Edwin Ransom on December 4, 2006, at 17:29:38

>I could make the same kind of overgeneralized >analogy in favor of the pharmacological approach >and say “depression is like a situation where >your hand feels like its burning when its not.’ >There’s just nothing to learn, all you can do is >try to find a way to stop feeling the burning >sensation.”

But how is depression diagnosed this days?

"Sadness or unhapiness lasting 2 weeks or more."

WTF?

If people don't think about their problems for longer than 2 weeks, there is something wrong.

In addition, I'm not saying you need to have a reason to be depressed. Life and stress are reasons enough.

Stress is likely the number 1 cause of depression.

Linkadge

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help

Posted by linkadge on December 4, 2006, at 18:27:28

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help, posted by SLS on December 4, 2006, at 18:11:24

>They are the result of abnormal brain function.

How can you say they are the result of abnormal brain function if no brain abnormality has been conclusively uncovered?

>There is much biological evidence to support >this conclusion.

The sum total of the biological evidence is zero. Give me any study that attempts to identifty a particular abnormality, and I will find an equally proportoned study that absolves that particular abnormality.


>Fortunately, treatments have been discovered >that are genuinely effective for the majority of >properly diagnosed cases.

Oh I see, good use of the discalimer "properly diagnosed cases".


Linkadge

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help » linkadge

Posted by madeline on December 4, 2006, at 18:29:26

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help, posted by linkadge on December 4, 2006, at 18:13:00

To some extent, I agree with you. It is shocking to see the number of prescriptions for AD's that come out of general practioner's offices.

I think that is malpractice.

Good old fashioned psychotherapy, learning new life coping skills, developing social support systems, making life (career) changes, eating well, avoiding alcohol, exercising, simply finding something that makes you happy and DOING it, becoming confident enough to take control of your life - these are all things that are essential for battling long term depression.

I do think the AD's can be a powerful adjunct to the above by potentially offering enough relief to begin the changes above.

But overcoming major depression, like any other chronic major illness, requires lifestyle changes as well.

Doctors should tell us this, good psychiatrists will open the door for us and help us to walk through to it.

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help » linkadge

Posted by tensor on December 4, 2006, at 18:32:42

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help, posted by linkadge on December 4, 2006, at 18:13:00

>The fact is that depression almost always gets better on its own..

almost always. almost.

>The problem is that depression is a message. It is a message to stop everything you're doing an
give yourself time to heal.

Then why is it a problem?

I have been tired all my life, lack of energy and motivation, as long as I can remember. I remember my first panic attack at an age of about 7. I started medicate at the age of 19 and got relief. My brain didn't heal over a period of 12 years, that's the longest I'm going to wait.

/Mattias

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help

Posted by linkadge on December 4, 2006, at 19:05:39

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help » linkadge, posted by tensor on December 4, 2006, at 18:32:42

>I have been tired all my life, lack of energy >and motivation, as long as I can remember. I >remember my first panic attack at an age of >about 7. I started medicate at the age of 19 and >got relief. My brain didn't heal over a period >of 12 years, that's the longest I'm going to >wait.

It is impossable for me to say as I do not have access to the data regarding all past, and present stressors.

I'm not saying that some sort of biochemical abnormality might not exist in some depression, I am just saying that there is *no way* that the number of people taking antidepressants today all have so called "geniune non-stress induced biochemical abnormalities".


Everbody I know who has taken antidepressants usually started during a period of significant life/psychosocial stress.

Wheather that be starting out at a new collage/university, loss of a job, loss of a loved one, school related psychosocial stress, family related stress, health issues, you name it.


Linkadge


 

Re: Why your medicine may not help

Posted by blueberry on December 4, 2006, at 19:08:43

In reply to Why your medicine may not help, posted by Vale on December 4, 2006, at 15:54:34

The strange thing though is that many people are helped a lot by their medicine. It's just that they are doing so well that they don't hang out at psychobabble. We get a slanted view of how the real world is. We think everyone is having troubles with their meds just because we are. About 10% of the workforce at my job are on meds and you would never know it. They are happy productive people.

I've experienced true deep dense depression caused by a devastating life circumstance. Therapy and time was good for ending that. I have also experienced true deep dense depression that just strikes like the flu. That kind of depression was not helped by therapy or time. Medications have sometimes been perfect, sometimes been fair, and sometimes been a disaster.

The human brain and genetics are way too complicated. There will never be a perfect cure for biologically caused depression. But in a majority of people medications make it possible for them to live nearly symptom free.

Just an opinion.

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help

Posted by Phillipa on December 4, 2006, at 19:43:34

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help, posted by blueberry on December 4, 2006, at 19:08:43

When I only had anxiety it would overwhelm me. An example was when I was in RN school I knew I couldn't raise my three kids, do an Aerobic Dance Businee, choreograph, train teachers, and put up with what was going on in the Associated Degree program. If your child was ill and you stayed home they booted you out no matter your grades and they let l00 into the program knowing they were allowed to only graduate 40. So the last day of school for first semester all finals taken and graded. We sat on the floor while the highter powers decided who would be booted who would stay based on a term paper. Well I was allowed to stay but knew it wouldn't be healthy. So lay on the couch for two weeks. Didn't attend parties and didn't care what my cheating husband was doing and had to decide whether to continut or drop out and I was on the Dean's list. I finally decided after the two weeks of nothing to drop out go the hospital route of degree and first take the Associates courses I needed. Two a semester. Then I entered the degree program nothing but nursing and it was perfect. I could have gone back to the Associates and was accepted into the Bachelors. But I knew my limits my love and it wasn't paperwork it was being with the patients. So that's what I did with absolutely no regrets. So doing nothing does work. And the slowing down. Now if I could do it again. Unfortunately this stupid thyroid and older age is messing it up. Love Phillipa my rant for the night

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help

Posted by laima on December 4, 2006, at 20:21:34

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help » Vale, posted by tensor on December 4, 2006, at 17:19:52


My doctor told me that even if medication konks out, it can provide a window of opportunity for making changes and improving one's condition- by feeling better for awhile, getting some momentum, shifting one's frame of mind and experiences. If depression or anxiety was useful for any of my ancestors' survival- great. It's not useful for me--and those ancestors wouldn't want me depressed either!

I'd also like to point out that poor and destitute people have high rates of depression- depression is not a rich person's indulgence.

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help

Posted by laima on December 4, 2006, at 20:38:30

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help » zmg, posted by linkadge on December 4, 2006, at 17:59:53

My parents, grandparents, and many other mid-century refugees packaged it up differently than we do today- bluntly, they probably never heard of depression, but they drank very heavily, and they looked forward to going to heaven- which they earned after enduring earth. They were VERY religious and EXCRUCIATINGLY patriotic (for both their nation of origin, and to the one that gave them shelter). Heaven was one of the rewards to live for- the other was so future generations (ie me) could hopefully have a better life. That didn't mean that their profound stresses of living through wars and famine, then later poverty, very hard work, and xenophobia didn't leave them utterly drained and depressed at times. They always warned, "Life isn't meant to be fun". That's been going on for generations in my family genes, actually. It's also a cultural "teaching" that got passed down. The suspicious ones survived, the happy-go-lucky ones perished at the hands of who ever was invading that century. I think I deserve to break that cycle if I can. No longer useful. I think I do deserve a decent life on earth, as does everyone else.


> Interesting comments. Thank you.
>
> Back in my great grandparent's day, depression wasn't an option.
>
> Now, we've sort of adopted this..."its my right to be non depressed". Says who? Was that the 11th commandment from God to Moses. "I shall provideth an effective antidepressant at all times"
>
> I don't understand when people come here just bewildered at why antidepressants aren't working.
>
> "I pay for my SUV, and therefore it should work". "I pay for my prozac, and therefore I should be happy." "Its my right as an antidperessant consumer to get an effective antidepressant"
>
> But, there are no guarentees in this buisness.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Linkadge

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help » linkadge

Posted by SLS on December 4, 2006, at 21:29:34

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help, posted by linkadge on December 4, 2006, at 18:27:28

> > They are the result of abnormal brain function.

> How can you say they are the result of abnormal brain function if no brain abnormality has been conclusively uncovered?

So, when does something become conclusive for Linkadge? I guess facts are really nothing more than opinions, afterall.

> >There is much biological evidence to support >this conclusion.

> The sum total of the biological evidence is zero.

Oh, absolutely.

> Give me any study that attempts to identifty a particular abnormality, and I will find an equally proportoned study that absolves that particular abnormality.

I'm sure you will.

> > Fortunately, treatments have been discovered that are genuinely effective for the majority of properly diagnosed cases.

> Oh I see, good use of the discalimer "properly diagnosed cases".

As opposed to treating an improperly diagnosed case? It's called a qualifier.

Linkadge, you make me feel so lucky sometimes.


- Scott

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help » SLS

Posted by linkadge on December 4, 2006, at 22:15:10

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help » linkadge, posted by SLS on December 4, 2006, at 21:29:34

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Linkadge

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help » Phillipa

Posted by fires on December 4, 2006, at 23:10:55

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help, posted by Phillipa on December 4, 2006, at 17:35:58

> Well meds don't help me. Love Phillipa ps maybe my hypothoroidism that is now hyper?

As anyone suggested Hashimoto's Thyroiditis? It can cause swings from hypo to hyper.

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help

Posted by SLS on December 5, 2006, at 6:17:10

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help » SLS, posted by linkadge on December 4, 2006, at 22:15:10

> Whatever helps you sleep at night.

It helps me live during the day, too.

I believe that, to the extent that it is possible, one should pursue happiness rather than amplify unhappiness. This is the job of cognition, not affect. It is a matter of perspective and attitude. It is a matter of choice. I am not saying that it is possible in all cases of depression to attain happiness, but it is always better to try to enhance one's cognitive processes through positive thinking than to languish in negative thinking. To actually choose to think negative when one is capable of thinking positive is self-destructive. It is precisely this depressive pressure (psychosocial stress) that can trigger and perpetuate and make treatment-resistant a depression.


- Scott

 

Re: Why your medicine may not help

Posted by linkadge on December 5, 2006, at 9:43:01

In reply to Re: Why your medicine may not help, posted by SLS on December 5, 2006, at 6:17:10

Well, I'm not happy unless I'm miserable.

Linkadge


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