![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by liliths on December 6, 2006, at 9:11:30
This post is about the use of painkillers for depression. For those who disagree, please don't use this post as a place to argue, for I desperately need help from those who DO understand and agree.
The short version is that the legality of my using them for my depression is under attack and I need to know what my rights are. They are currently prescribed by my pdoc as part of my treatment.
In applying for a state license, the recommendation going to the Board is that they be discontinued as not being "A Recognized Treatment for Depression" AND they want me to submit to random urine monioring to make sure I'm not using them.
Though I am able to find articles supporting their efficacy, I do not have access to medical/legal journals... just ordinary internet searches and I don't think I have found anything truly substantive
If there is anybody who can point me to documentation supporting their legality as a recognized treatment
AND if there are any Doctors or Medical Professionals on this board who would be willing to post something I can use, I would be extremely grateful. I do seem to remember there being at least one Doctor who admitted to using them for their own depressionThe full story is on an earlier post to our dear pseudoname:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20061117/msgs/704924.htmlI have been going through hell trying to obain a license I would have just been granted had I not been honest on my application as being treated for depression. It is bringing me desperately close to the edge.
I am meeting with a lawyer tomorrow (thursday) but I worry I won't be able to afford legal representation as the consultation alone is beyond my finances.
The Board meets January 17, but the "recommendation" has already been sent. I have been advised to send in my arguements as soon as possible, before my actual interview with the Board.
Thank You in advance for ANY help!!
namaste,
lilith
Posted by Phillipa on December 6, 2006, at 10:59:37
In reply to Desperately Need Legal/Medical Advice, Please!, posted by liliths on December 6, 2006, at 9:11:30
Maybe buph. I can't spell it but it's for opiate addicts. I know what you mean as l percocet has me laughing. Love Phillipa
Posted by liliths on December 6, 2006, at 11:16:17
In reply to Re: Desperately Need Legal/Medical Advice, Please! » liliths, posted by Phillipa on December 6, 2006, at 10:59:37
> Maybe buph. I can't spell it but it's for opiate addicts. I know what you mean as l percocet has me laughing. Love Phillipa
Thanks Phillipa... there is plenty of documentation for the use of buprenorphine but my pdoc won't prescribe it.... though I'll probably submit documentation on it anyway
thanks again
namaste,
lilith
Posted by med_empowered on December 6, 2006, at 12:02:53
In reply to Re: Desperately Need Legal/Medical Advice, Please!, posted by liliths on December 6, 2006, at 11:16:17
there are some case studies w/ stronger opiates (oxymorphone, methadone) being used in refractory depression, anxiety, and schizophrenia. Also, there's a whole lot of evidence pointing to opiates for mood disordered people being used up until the mid-1900s. There are also a couple of case studies suggesting that tramadol is helpful for OCD, which is often accompanied by depression and other mood disorders.
Could you maybe get your shrink to drop the opiate just long enough for you to get a license? I don't really understand the system you're working under. It seems like your doc would have the final say over what flies and what doesn't, and that s/he would be the final judge of the effectiveness of any treatment(s) administered.
It seems like if you could drop the opiate(s) for a while and replace them with tramadol, you could get some anti-depressant/anti-anxiety effects AND come up clean on urinalysis. Then, once you've got license in hand, your doc could replace the tramadol w/ your usual med, or leave the tramadol and supplement it.
I'm really sorry this is happening to you...I hope it turns out well.
:-)
Posted by happykat on December 6, 2006, at 12:13:03
In reply to Desperately Need Legal/Medical Advice, Please!, posted by liliths on December 6, 2006, at 9:11:30
I have found that I can gain access to lots of great medical/legal resources on internet in the local community college library. Anyone can use the computers. I just email the articles to myself.
Is the issue over being treated for depression or specifically the medications you are taking?
How did they find out what you are taking? Did you disclose or did your doctor?
Do you have any underlying chronic medical issues or physical problems that you can attribute the pain med to? Was your pdoc the original prescriber of the hydrocodone?
I understand your dilemna. Quite a while ago I was on pain meds, antianxiety and AD prescribed by pdoc initially for underlying medical issue.
I'm interested in finding out more about your situation.
happykat
Posted by liliths on December 6, 2006, at 12:59:11
In reply to Legal/Medical Advice, Please! » liliths, posted by happykat on December 6, 2006, at 12:13:03
thank you both for replying
here's the scoop from the earlier thread I mentioned and I'll post the update below it
=====
"In a nutshell, I graduated from school for Massage Therapy with high honors in May, aced my boards scoring "high" in all content areas in August and when I filled out the form to the Dept. of Health for my license, was honest about being treated for depression/add/anxiety. My pdoc told me they weren't allowed to discriminate against me and I did believe my records would speak for themselves, including the documentation I provided.HAH! They referred me into a system for Impaired Practitioners. I had to have a psychiatric evaluation from one of their doctors (at my own expense) and as I was leaving the eval, this pdoc sprung a "verified" drug test as part of the process (of course, also at my own expense). Want to feel degraded? Go urinate in front of a lab tech, whose job is to 'closely watch'
I've barely left the house for months. I got the 'results' of the evaluation and it was good, except that, of course, he wants to change my meds! Writes that I'm doing well on my current regimen but he doesn't see the need for the hydrocodone or the klonopin. How much sense does THAT make? Gee... she's doing well on her meds, she must not need them? Isn't that usually considered a sign of a severe disorder? sheesh.."
=====UPDATE:
the final recommendation that went to the board states that they will advocate granting me a license IF I am willing to stop using hydrocodone AND submit to random urinalysis for the next 5 years to prove I'm not taking any opiates. Plus they said something about speaking with my doctor about the klonopin. They state that the use of lortab is "not a recognized treatment for depression"Now, I have probably every easily available document already from doing google searches and yes, most leans towards even stronger drugs than the one I'm taking. Which might be why, in over 4 years, I haven't had to change my dose to gain some therpeutic result. I also have a lot of documentation for buprenorphine, which my pdoc doesn't want to deal with prescribing, for some reason, though I'm quite keen to try it
now personally, I am furious about this entire ordeal! It's already cost me close to $1000 and I haven't been able to earn a living. I had a slot waiting for me on our local Sports Massage Team (part time but great networking) as well as an opportunity to work with Hurricane Katrina victims, and I've watched both just go by because I have no license. Had I not been honest on my application, they would have just given me the damn thing. The depression from dealing with this has me barely able to leave the house. I'm suicidal most of the time (obsessing about its inevitability, not really about to do it - but I need the comfort and just about the only thing I am capable of doing is trying to organize my life and work on my letter to my partner for when I'm dead... and that's a REALLY LOUSY LIFE!!)
pseudoname is who was most supportive and we seemed to pretty much be in the same place in our lives. I was devastated to learn he had left us and jealous as well... I wish I were ready to leave but I'm not. I'm still angry and fighting.. but who knows how I'll feel after my 'meeting' with the Review Board on January 17th. I am NOT willing to change my meds because some stupid doctor doesn't like them - that he could actually state that I am "stable and safe to practice", then turn around and say, but let's change her meds, is utterly ridiculous. I am also totally unwilling to submit to random drug tests... I will NOT live looking over my shoulder. I haven't done anything wrong
I'm consulting with a lawyer tomorrow who deals with this kind of thing. Unfortunately, I doubt I can afford to retain counsel as the consultation alone is costing me $300
well, that's it... thanks for listening and I apologize for ranting
I really hurt and feel pretty defeated right now. I sold my house to go back to school, gave up every ounce of 'normalization' to get through the year. It was really hard for someone like me to 'show up' every day, take tests and jump through those hoops. I'm a middle aged woman (Oh, don't I just HATE saying that!) trying to re-build her life... and I don't think you really want all those details LOL
thanks again
namaste,
lilith
Posted by madeline on December 6, 2006, at 14:36:39
In reply to Re: Legal/Medical Advice, Please! 2 both posts :), posted by liliths on December 6, 2006, at 12:59:11
it sounds to me as though your prescribing pdoc should be going to bat for you here.
Why is this all on your shoulders?
Does your prescribing physician agree with the evaluating pdoc's recommendation?
Posted by liliths on December 6, 2006, at 15:11:32
In reply to Re: Legal/Medical Advice, Please! 2 both posts :) » liliths, posted by madeline on December 6, 2006, at 14:36:39
Thank you for your response. No my psychiatrist is furious BUT the state cares less about him than it does their 'evaluators'
We actually called PRN (that's the organization the state passed me onto) from his office last week and they were so close minded and abusive, my normally soft-spoken pdoc called them 'ignorant', said it was obvious they wouldn't listen to reason, hung up and told me to get a lawyer.
I am asking him to write a letter presenting his opinion to pass onto the Board.
I do wish he were more willing to fight with me, for my rights, as well as his, but I guess expecting a doctor to actually care about you as a person is too much to ask for. Hopefully his letter will, at least, carry some weight
The really ridiculous part is that the independent psychiatrist they made me see, stated that I was "safe and stable to practice" obviously while on my current regimen. He just didn't like my meds and neither does PRN, hence the nightmare
thanks again
namaste,
lilith
> it sounds to me as though your prescribing pdoc should be going to bat for you here.
>
> Why is this all on your shoulders?
>
> Does your prescribing physician agree with the evaluating pdoc's recommendation?
Posted by med_empowered on December 6, 2006, at 15:35:55
In reply to Re: Legal/Medical Advice, Please! 2 both posts :) » madeline, posted by liliths on December 6, 2006, at 15:11:32
wow. Your situation sucks. I really admire your courage, though--a lot of people would have just given in. Its tough, I'm sure, but I think its admirable that you're fighting this Big Brother-style bulls**t.
Anyway...getting the doc you're seeing to do much will probably take a lot of work, and he might not do much.
What I think might work is contacting someone who's been doing research in this field. If you google it, I imagine you could find someone. Also, for buprenorphine, there's a searchable, online listing of docs who are licensed to RX it. I searched it, and found that a lot of them were shrinks, which probably means the buprenorphine is being used off-label a good bit. Maybe you or your lawyer could call or write some of these people and explain the situation. If you could get other doctors--doctors who haven't evaluated or prescribed for you, but who are experienced with dealing with opiates off-label--to back-up your med combo and your current doc, I think that might help tremendously.
Also: I'm a little confused as to how this other doc thinks he can compel you to choose different meds. In the US at least, the whole "off-label" deal means that any doctor can decide to give any drug for any purpose as long as there is some sort of indication that it could work well for *that patient*. It sounds like your doc is RX-ing responsibly--no massive doses, no crazy dosage escalation, etc.--so I don't see why this other doc's opinion should carry any sort of weight. Your doctor is providing you with legal access to medications that have proven helpful, and what he is doing is consistent with the practices of some other doctors. Its not as if he's hooking you up to an IV of Dilaudid every time you come in for an office visit.
The buprenorphine list is www.turntohelp.com
Dr.Ivan Goldberg has a website for mood-disordered people
http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.html
On it, you will find a link to email Dr.Goldberg and contact list for psychiatrists who deal w/ treatment-resistant mood disorders. My guess is that some of the doctors on the list, and possibly Dr.Goldberg, RX opiates for certain cases; since these people are recognized experts in their field, input from them could possibly prove helpful.
I wish you the best of luck--please keep us updated, and you can babblemail me if you'd like.
Posted by madeline on December 6, 2006, at 15:43:22
In reply to hey, posted by med_empowered on December 6, 2006, at 15:35:55
I would also have your pdoc prepare a list of all the standard anti-depression therapies that you have tried, but failed to respond to. The more exhaustive this list is, the more likely you are to make your case.
Have him document that there has been no dose escalation over the past years and that you have not been getting this medication from a source other than him.
Do the things that med_empowered suggested. It is good advice.
Posted by liliths on December 6, 2006, at 15:53:06
In reply to hey, posted by med_empowered on December 6, 2006, at 15:35:55
Thank you so much!!!!!!!!!!!!!
everything you've said makes so much sense, you'd think this wouldn't be happening right here in the US... yet it is.
you are a blessing!
namaste,
lilith> wow. Your situation sucks. I really admire your courage, though--a lot of people would have just given in. Its tough, I'm sure, but I think its admirable that you're fighting this Big Brother-style bulls**t.
>
> Anyway...getting the doc you're seeing to do much will probably take a lot of work, and he might not do much.
>
> What I think might work is contacting someone who's been doing research in this field. If you google it, I imagine you could find someone. Also, for buprenorphine, there's a searchable, online listing of docs who are licensed to RX it. I searched it, and found that a lot of them were shrinks, which probably means the buprenorphine is being used off-label a good bit. Maybe you or your lawyer could call or write some of these people and explain the situation. If you could get other doctors--doctors who haven't evaluated or prescribed for you, but who are experienced with dealing with opiates off-label--to back-up your med combo and your current doc, I think that might help tremendously.
>
> Also: I'm a little confused as to how this other doc thinks he can compel you to choose different meds. In the US at least, the whole "off-label" deal means that any doctor can decide to give any drug for any purpose as long as there is some sort of indication that it could work well for *that patient*. It sounds like your doc is RX-ing responsibly--no massive doses, no crazy dosage escalation, etc.--so I don't see why this other doc's opinion should carry any sort of weight. Your doctor is providing you with legal access to medications that have proven helpful, and what he is doing is consistent with the practices of some other doctors. Its not as if he's hooking you up to an IV of Dilaudid every time you come in for an office visit.
>
> The buprenorphine list is www.turntohelp.com
>
> Dr.Ivan Goldberg has a website for mood-disordered people
>
> http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.html
>
> On it, you will find a link to email Dr.Goldberg and contact list for psychiatrists who deal w/ treatment-resistant mood disorders. My guess is that some of the doctors on the list, and possibly Dr.Goldberg, RX opiates for certain cases; since these people are recognized experts in their field, input from them could possibly prove helpful.
>
> I wish you the best of luck--please keep us updated, and you can babblemail me if you'd like.
>
>
Posted by liliths on December 6, 2006, at 15:56:26
In reply to Re: hey, posted by madeline on December 6, 2006, at 15:43:22
Thank you... I really appreciate your suggestions :)
and yes, med_empowered certainly lives up to the name :))namaste,
lilith
> I would also have your pdoc prepare a list of all the standard anti-depression therapies that you have tried, but failed to respond to. The more exhaustive this list is, the more likely you are to make your case.
>
> Have him document that there has been no dose escalation over the past years and that you have not been getting this medication from a source other than him.
>
> Do the things that med_empowered suggested. It is good advice.
Posted by ronaldo on December 6, 2006, at 16:12:29
In reply to Re: Legal/Medical Advice, Please! 2 both posts :) » madeline, posted by liliths on December 6, 2006, at 15:11:32
Hello liliths
Sorry to hear about your troubles. I hope you win your case and get everything sorted.
I am curious as to what 'namaste' means. Could you please tell me?
thanks
....ronaldo
Posted by happykat on December 6, 2006, at 17:26:09
In reply to Re: Legal/Medical Advice, Please! 2 both posts :), posted by liliths on December 6, 2006, at 12:59:11
They may actually be setting themselves up for a discrimination lawsuit. Unless they can prove that your use of prescribed medications is going to physically or psychologically impair your ability to perform your job, I don't believe they can legally deny you a license. I think their IME doctor is overstepping his bounds in trying to dictate what he thinks your medical care ought to be. I think its Bullsh*t.
If the atty you see tomorrow isn't helpful DON'T GIVE UP. I think you have a good shot at suing them if they deny you. Ask your atty for reference to legal aid office if you can't afford counsel or seek atty that does pro bono or works on contigency. You may have to shop around a bit but it will be worth it.
Good Luck!
happykat
Posted by Phillipa on December 6, 2006, at 19:49:53
In reply to Re: Legal/Medical Advice, Please! 2 both posts :) » liliths, posted by happykat on December 6, 2006, at 17:26:09
What about all the Nurses and Doctors practicing on pain meds and antianxiety meds?. Have they changed policies or what as when nursing just producing the Rx bottle from your doc was all that was needed for working. And unless you were impaired on your job the Boards wouldn't even be aware of your meds. That's outrageous. Love Phillipa
Posted by med_empowered on December 7, 2006, at 2:51:43
In reply to Re: Legal/Medical Advice, Please! 2 both posts :), posted by Phillipa on December 6, 2006, at 19:49:53
another thing I thought of...most states have a legal help line run by the state bar association. If you call between certain hours (you'll need to google this one), they can answer questions. Also, most of them have email services to help you out.
also check out... www.allexperts.com
Its a free question+answer sight...there might be a lawyer in your area who can answer a basic question about your situation, or at least someone who can point you in the right direction of someone to connect with to make this bull***t stop.
You might also want to contact a paralegal. Although they cant usually practice (I think some states give a little leeway on that, though), they can offer legal advice and documents for less money than a lawyer, often with more hands-on attention to your needs.Finally, and I don't know if this is possible but...do you think maybe you could contact the state medical board or your local chapter of the american psychiatric association (I'm assuming the doc who is causing you problems is a shrink) and look into filing a complaint? What s/he is doing is clearly harassment, and it is *clearly* overstepping the bounds of his/her authority and undermining the authority of your own physician. I would imagine a medical board would be quick to punish a doc who spoke out against a fellow doctor for no real reason except for a baseless disapproval of the other doc's prescribing practices.
Good luck!
Posted by liliths on December 7, 2006, at 5:49:16
In reply to Just curious...... » liliths, posted by ronaldo on December 6, 2006, at 16:12:29
hi ronaldo
the short version is:
"the divine in me honors the divine in you"It is used as a greeting, as a gesture of the soul in one by the soul in another and is usually accompanied my bringing the hands together to the heart chakra, bowing the head slightly & closing one's eyes for a moment.
Yoga classes often begin and end this way, as well as meditation, and can even be used as a meditation technique in itself. When I was on retreat, it was often used when passing someone on a path.
here is a more "formal" description:
====================
I honor the place in you
in which the entire Universe dwells,I honor the place in you
which is of Love, of Truth, of Light and of Peace,When you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
we are One.
====================hope this helps...
it really is beautiful to menamaste,
lilith
> Hello liliths
>
> Sorry to hear about your troubles. I hope you win your case and get everything sorted.
>
> I am curious as to what 'namaste' means. Could you please tell me?
>
> thanks
>
> ....ronaldo
Posted by liliths on December 7, 2006, at 5:53:06
In reply to Re: Legal/Medical Advice, Please! 2 both posts :) » liliths, posted by happykat on December 6, 2006, at 17:26:09
thank you for the encouragement happykat
btw, I love your name :)I'm bringing everything I have to the lawyers in a couple of hours and will post an update when I return
thanks again,
namaste,
lilith> They may actually be setting themselves up for a discrimination lawsuit. Unless they can prove that your use of prescribed medications is going to physically or psychologically impair your ability to perform your job, I don't believe they can legally deny you a license. I think their IME doctor is overstepping his bounds in trying to dictate what he thinks your medical care ought to be. I think its Bullsh*t.
>
> If the atty you see tomorrow isn't helpful DON'T GIVE UP. I think you have a good shot at suing them if they deny you. Ask your atty for reference to legal aid office if you can't afford counsel or seek atty that does pro bono or works on contigency. You may have to shop around a bit but it will be worth it.
>
> Good Luck!
> happykat
Posted by liliths on December 7, 2006, at 5:56:54
In reply to Re: Legal/Medical Advice, Please! 2 both posts :), posted by Phillipa on December 6, 2006, at 19:49:53
Hi Phillipa
Thank you for your support. This is pretty outrageous, isn't it? It was the LAST thing I expected.
as I've said, I'll post an update when I return from the lawyers this afternoon
having this place has been a real help to me... obviously, it's not something one can easily discuss with others. I had one friend, who when she found out I was on medication simplay say " well, that has to stop!. You've got to get off that stuff" sigh....
thanks again
namaste,
lilith> What about all the Nurses and Doctors practicing on pain meds and antianxiety meds?. Have they changed policies or what as when nursing just producing the Rx bottle from your doc was all that was needed for working. And unless you were impaired on your job the Boards wouldn't even be aware of your meds. That's outrageous. Love Phillipa
Posted by liliths on December 7, 2006, at 6:06:15
In reply to Re: Legal/Medical Advice, Please! 2 both posts :), posted by med_empowered on December 7, 2006, at 2:51:43
hi med_empowered (another great name!)
oddly enough, this 'machine' is, I believe, under the auspices of the Medical Board. It is usually used when complaints are filed against medical practitioners. So I'm being lumped with drug addicts, sex offenders and anyone else who's has charges levied against them. It's one of my arguments... that this place can't treat all cases the same - there must be something in place to separate
You have been a fount of information and help. I can't thank you enough. As I've said, I'm bringing everything (including the info I've gathered through all of you) with me to the lawyers and will post an update when I return
I'll be looking into all your suggestions as soon as I return :)
and I definitely plan to find out whether I have a suit against them once this nightmare is resolved, regardless of the outsome.
thanks again,
namaste,
lilith> another thing I thought of...most states have a legal help line run by the state bar association. If you call between certain hours (you'll need to google this one), they can answer questions. Also, most of them have email services to help you out.
>
> also check out... www.allexperts.com
>
> Its a free question+answer sight...there might be a lawyer in your area who can answer a basic question about your situation, or at least someone who can point you in the right direction of someone to connect with to make this bull***t stop.
> You might also want to contact a paralegal. Although they cant usually practice (I think some states give a little leeway on that, though), they can offer legal advice and documents for less money than a lawyer, often with more hands-on attention to your needs.
>
> Finally, and I don't know if this is possible but...do you think maybe you could contact the state medical board or your local chapter of the american psychiatric association (I'm assuming the doc who is causing you problems is a shrink) and look into filing a complaint? What s/he is doing is clearly harassment, and it is *clearly* overstepping the bounds of his/her authority and undermining the authority of your own physician. I would imagine a medical board would be quick to punish a doc who spoke out against a fellow doctor for no real reason except for a baseless disapproval of the other doc's prescribing practices.
>
> Good luck!
Posted by ronaldo on December 7, 2006, at 10:20:54
In reply to Re: Just curious...... » ronaldo, posted by liliths on December 7, 2006, at 5:49:16
Posted by liliths on December 7, 2006, at 12:11:12
In reply to Desperately Need Legal/Medical Advice, Please!, posted by liliths on December 6, 2006, at 9:11:30
I'm so depressed, I can barely write but I did want you all to know what happened - you've all been so wonderful & supportive - it has meant a lot
according to the attorneys, getting my license is considered a 'priviledge', not a right, despite my scores and hoop jumping.
they state that the Massage Review Board and the Board of Health itself basically won't make these decisions, particularly if they are medical, so they farm it out to PRN, which throws you into the Impaired Practitioners Program. As I said, it doesn't matter why you're there - whether you're a drug addict, sexual offender, malpractice, or just someone on anti-depressents...they get to state their recommendations to the Board.
In my case, they are willing to advocate for my license IF I withdraw from using opiates and submit to random drug tests to make sure I am 'clean' for 5 years. They are also looking to argue about taking away my klonopin, if possible, and if not, plan to make me abstain completely from alcohol
nice huh?
if you ever thought you had any rights, this ought to set you straight
the Health Law lawyers did recommend my seeing an Employment Attorney as I may have a discrimination suit but I still need to decide how I want to play it next month as certainly nothing would be resolved by then... if there even is anything that can be done.
I can either comply while I file suit or submit a letter asking them to defer my hearing until the next board meeting while I try and fight it. But that means continuing the way I've been - not leaving the house... though if I comply, I KNOW I'll totally fall apart from the sheer insanity of having complete strangers tell me what I am allowed to do. I'm screwed either way. I'll know more after I've found a lawyer who can advise me (and hopefully won't take another $300 for the damn consultation!) but right now I am so exhausted, upset and defeated, I can't function... I can't care anymore but I also just can't see myself giving in to their demands. It simply goes against everything I believe in
honestly, right now, pseudoname's idea looks the best, but I have a 16 year old cat quite dependent on me right now and I always promised her I'd never leave her
I even found out that a dear friend 3000 miles from me just died of a heart attack... how much worse is it going to get? Oh yeah, I do get to go to the dentist for an abcessed root canal tomorrow
lol
at least I'm still laughing
I love you guys.. you've been my rock :)
I'm going to go lie downnamaste,
lilith
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2006, at 0:21:21
In reply to UPDATE, posted by liliths on December 7, 2006, at 12:11:12
> according to the attorneys, getting my license is considered a 'priviledge', not a right, despite my scores and hoop jumping...
I'm sorry you're having to go through this, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding getting a license to Psycho-Babble Work. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/work/20060706/msgs/711363.html
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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