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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rjlockhart on February 21, 2007, at 0:08:33
My cheeks are really getting big, and i know its from one of these drugs.
Prozac i take 30mg
Zpyrexa 2.5mg
Which one is more likey to be causing this, and would more strenmous excercise help?
Matt
Posted by yxibow on February 21, 2007, at 0:58:32
In reply to Listen i have gained weight, Zyprexa, or Prozac?, posted by rjlockhart on February 21, 2007, at 0:08:33
> My cheeks are really getting big, and i know its from one of these drugs.
The face is one of the first indications of weight gain.
>
> Prozac i take 30mg
>
> Zpyrexa 2.5mg
>
> Which one is more likey to be causing this, and would more strenmous excercise help?
>
> Matt
The Zyprexa definately. Prozac is almost always a slightly anti-weight gain. 2.5mg is a small dose so the gain you're getting is probably proportionately small but yes, strenuous excercise for someone your age is not a bad thing.
I have to combat Seroquel gain and I get discouraged at times, but I go in anyhow, armed with some coffee (Seroquel and Valium are sedating) and dextrose and get a vigorous cardio on the treadmills.
The gym just introduced this wierd machine that has two treads and you walk up and down. Seems like light exercise but I can tell you I burned 2200 calories yesterday. My main problem is the cereal box, and a bit of weight gain from the Seroquel.
Or just skip the gym and get yourself some running pants and go jogging around the block daily and get some fresh air.
Zyprexa has an especially large lipid profile gain over Seroquel. Still, there may be a reason for the small dose you're taking so I'm not questioning the doctor. Both of them change your cholesterol balance, especially if you're not doing daily excercise. Even as a vegetarian, my cholesterol can wander from 115 or so up to 180 if my weight and body fat get out of hand. 180 still isn't deadly but its not superb.
-- tidingsJay
Posted by laima on February 21, 2007, at 7:01:14
In reply to Re: Listen i have gained weight, Zyprexa, or Proza » rjlockhart, posted by yxibow on February 21, 2007, at 0:58:32
I agree- probably the zyprexa. I've used prozac in the past, but the weight from that took a number of years to creep on slowly, but with zyprexa it was like boom!
Perhaps this would be a good time to hit the cardio machines or go running more? And they do say that muscle helps one burn more calories no matter what one does, so it's a good time to keep up on weights, too. Maybe keep an eye on sweets, consider giving up soda if you drink soda. Or switch to diet soda or seltzer water. They say a lot of people gain weight from soda because it's loaded with sugary calories, and most people gulp down loads of calories without even realizing when they drink it. Same story for drinks like Gatorade.
ps- Your dose of zyprexa is a low one.
Good luck.
Posted by yxibow on February 21, 2007, at 9:20:05
In reply to Re: Listen i have gained weight, Zyprexa, or Proza » yxibow, posted by laima on February 21, 2007, at 7:01:14
> I agree- probably the zyprexa. I've used prozac in the past, but the weight from that took a number of years to creep on slowly, but with zyprexa it was like boom!
>
> Perhaps this would be a good time to hit the cardio machines or go running more? And they do say that muscle helps one burn more calories no matter what one does, so it's a good time to keep up on weights, too. Maybe keep an eye on sweets, consider giving up soda if you drink soda. Or switch to diet soda or seltzer water. They say a lot of people gain weight from soda because it's loaded with sugary calories, and most people gulp down loads of calories without even realizing when they drink it. Same story for drinks like Gatorade.
>
> ps- Your dose of zyprexa is a low one.
>
> Good luck.
I'd agree on the soda issue. People don't realize that they're gulping up to 200 empty (non protein, vitamin, etc.) calories every time they take a bottle or can of soda. I switched a long time ago to diet soda, and while some people hate the taste, I don't really remember it much any more. Splenda (sucralose) drinks are more realistic than aspartame (lets not have a methanol debate...) and are are becoming more popular. Diet Rite, some diet 7UP, and some hansens drinks have sucralose or sucralose / acesulfame K.
If you're worried about any danger from the above you'd have to drink 150 diet sodas a day or the like to even get any close to any problems and in fact there was even an idea to bring back cylamates. Saccharin is in our daily lives from Pepto Bismol to toothpaste -- its frequently a medical additive. Its repulsive otherwise, in my opinion, and is why most all diet drinks have aspartame or sucralose (which doesn't carry the PKU issue.)
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 13:53:29
In reply to Re: Listen i have gained weight, Zyprexa, or Proza » laima, posted by yxibow on February 21, 2007, at 9:20:05
Aspartame is not good for you. I don't care what Monsanto (Satan, LLC.) says: it is, at the very least, not something you'd want to consume voluntarily. There's just too much evidence to ignore it. A lot of money is at stake in this debate, so it's hard to know what information is reliable. However, by my lights, the preponderance of negative evidence is enough to suggest that responsible consumers should shy away from it. Sure, it's not going to kill you, but I don't think it's something you'd want to consume simply because you like sweet-tasting things.
Nothing quenches thirst like water!IMHO, sucralose probably has the least potential for harm out of all of them. It also, as you point out, tastes the best. Natural, nutritive sugar substitutes like stevia are far more preferable, though.
Letter from Dr. J. Olney:
http://www.wnho.net/olneyletter.htmhttp://www.mindfully.org/Health/Aspartame-Adverse-Reactions-1993.htm
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/story/0,11026,1667772,00.html
http://www.presidiotex.com/aspartame/Facts/92_Symptoms/92_symptoms.gif
http://www.wnho.net/aspartameletter.htm
http://archive.gao.gov/d4t4/130780.pdf
1: Biol Psychiatry. 1993 Jul 1-15;34(1-2):13-7.
Adverse reactions to aspartame: double-blind challenge in patients from a
vulnerable population.Walton RG, Hudak R, Green-Waite RJ.
Department of Psychiatry, Northeastern Ohio Universities College of Medicine,
Youngstown.This study was designed to ascertain whether individuals with mood disorders are
particularly vulnerable to adverse effects of aspartame. Although the protocol
required the recruitment of 40 patients with unipolar depression and a similar
number of individuals without a psychiatric history, the project was halted by
the Institutional Review Board after a total of 13 individuals had completed the
study because of the severity of reactions within the group of patients with a
history of depression. In a crossover design, subjects received aspartame 30
mg/kg/day or placebo for 7 days. Despite the small n, there was a significant
difference between aspartame and placebo in number and severity of symptoms for
patients with a history of depression, whereas for individuals without such a
history there was not. We conclude that individuals with mood disorders are
particularly sensitive to this artificial sweetener and its use in this
population should be discouraged.PMID: 8373935 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Keep in mind that consuming artificial sweeteners may still cause carbohydrate cravings.
1: Appetite. 2007 Jan;48(1):20-8. Epub 2006 Jul 17.
Effects of hunger state on flavour pleasantness conditioning at home:
flavour-nutrient learning vs. flavour-flavour learning.Mobini S, Chambers LC, Yeomans MR.
Department of Psychology, School of Life Sciences, University of Sussex,
Brighton BN1 9QH, UK. S.Mobini@sussex.ac.ukThis study examined acquired liking of flavour preferences through
flavour-flavour and flavour-nutrient learning under hungry or sated conditions
in a naturalistic setting. Each participant consumed one of three versions of a
test drink at home either before lunch or after lunch: minimally sweetened
(CONTROL: 3% sucrose, 40 kcal), artificially sweetened (3% sucrose 40 kcal plus
artificial sweeteners ASPARTAME) and sucrose-sweetened (SUCROSE: 9.9% sugar, 132
kcal). The test drink was an uncarbonated peach-flavoured iced tea served in
visually identical drink cans (330 ml). Participants preselected as "sweet
likers" evaluated the minimally sweetened flavoured drink (conditioned stimulus,
CS) in the same state (hungry or sated) in which they consumed the test drink at
home. Overall, liking for the CS flavour increased in participants who consumed
the SUCROSE drink, however, this increase in liking was significantly larger
when tested and trained hungry than sated, consistent with a flavour-nutrient
model. Overall increases in pleasantness for the CS flavour in participants who
consumed the SUCROSE drink when sated or the ASPARTAME drink independent of
hunger state, suggest that flavour-flavour learning also occurred. These results
are discussed in light of current learning models of flavour preference.PMID: 16846663 [PubMed - in process]
1: Biol Psychol. 2006 Aug;73(2):199-208. Epub 2006 May 19.
The effect of glucose administration on the emotional enhancement effect in
recognition memory.Brandt KR, Sunram-Lea SI, Qualtrough K.
University of Lancaster, UK. k.r.brandt@psy.keele.ac.uk
Previous research has demonstrated that glucose administration improves memory
performance. However few studies have addressed the effects of glucose on
emotional material that by nature already enjoys a memory advantage. The aim of
the present research was therefore to investigate whether the memory
facilitation effect associated with glucose would emerge for emotional words.
Experiment 1 demonstrated that negative words were better recognized and
remembered than positive and neutral words. Experiment 2 further explored these
effects under conditions of glucose administration and an aspartame control. The
results revealed that both the aspartame and glucose groups replicated the
results from Experiment 1. The present research therefore demonstrated that the
glucose facilitation effect did not emerge for material that already benefits
from a memory advantage. These results also raise the question of whether the
dose response relationship previously associated with glucose administration is
applicable when the information being processed is of an emotional nature.PMID: 16713059 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: Environ Health Perspect. 2006 Mar;114(3):379-85.
Comment in:
Environ Health Perspect. 2006 Mar;114(3):A176.
Environ Health Perspect. 2006 Sep;114(9):A516; author reply A516-7.The following article is available here:
http://www.ehponline.org/members/2005/8711/8711.pdf
First experimental demonstration of the multipotential carcinogenic effects of
aspartame administered in the feed to Sprague-Dawley rats.Soffritti M, Belpoggi F, Degli Esposti D, Lambertini L, Tibaldi E, Rigano A.
Cesare Maltoni Cancer Research Center, European Ramazzini Foundation of Oncology
and Environmental Sciences, Bologna, Italy. crcfr@ramazzini.itThe Cesare Maltoni Cancer Research Center of the European Ramazzini Foundation
has conducted a long-term bioassay on aspartame (APM), a widely used artificial
sweetener. APM was administered with feed to 8-week-old Sprague-Dawley rats
(100-150/sex/group), at concentrations of 100,000, 50,000, 10,000, 2,000, 400,
80, or 0 ppm. The treatment lasted until natural death, at which time all
deceased animals underwent complete necropsy. Histopathologic evaluation of all
pathologic lesions and of all organs and tissues collected was routinely
performed on each animal of all experimental groups. The results of the study
show for the first time that APM, in our experimental conditions, causes a) an
increased incidence of malignant-tumor-bearing animals with a positive
significant trend in males (p < or = 0.05) and in females (p < or = 0.01), in
particular those females treated at 50,000 ppm (p < or = 0.01); b) an increase
in lymphomas and leukemias with a positive significant trend in both males (p <
or = 0.05) and females (p < or = 0.01), in particular in females treated at
doses of 100,000 (p < or = 0.01), 50,000 (p < or = 0.01), 10,000 (p < or =
0.05), 2,000 (p < or = 0.05), or 400 ppm (p < or = 0.01); c) a statistically
significant increased incidence, with a positive significant trend (p < or =
0.01), of transitional cell carcinomas of the renal pelvis and ureter and their
precursors (dysplasias) in females treated at 100,000 (p < or = 0.01), 50,000 (p
< or = 0.01), 10,000 (p < or = 0.01), 2,000 (p < or = 0.05), or 400 ppm (p < or
= 0.05); and d) an increased incidence of malignant schwannomas of peripheral
nerves with a positive trend (p < or = 0.05) in males. The results of this
mega-experiment indicate that APM is a multipotential carcinogenic agent, even
at a daily dose of 20 mg/kg body weight, much less than the current acceptable
daily intake. On the basis of these results, a reevaluation of the present
guidelines on the use and consumption of APM is urgent and cannot be delayed.PMID: 16507461 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
1: BMJ. 2005 Feb 5;330(7486):309-10; author reply 310.
Comment on:
BMJ. 2004 Oct 2;329(7469):755-6.Aspartame and its effects on health: independently funded studies have found
potential for adverse effects.Briffa J.
PMID: 15695284 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Of course, this is what Monsanto had to say:
1: Regul Toxicol Pharmacol. 2002 Apr;35(2 Pt 2):S1-93.
Aspartame: review of safety.
Butchko HH, Stargel WW, Comer CP, Mayhew DA, Benninger C, Blackburn GL, de
Sonneville LM, Geha RS, Hertelendy Z, Koestner A, Leon AS, Liepa GU, McMartin
KE, Mendenhall CL, Munro IC, Novotny EJ, Renwick AG, Schiffman SS, Schomer DL,
Shaywitz BA, Spiers PA, Tephly TR, Thomas JA, Trefz FK.Medical and Scientific Affairs, The NutraSweet Company, Mt Prospect, Illinois
60056, USA. harriett.h.butchko@nutrasweet.comOver 20 years have elapsed since aspartame was approved by regulatory agencies
as a sweetener and flavor enhancer. The safety of aspartame and its metabolic
constituents was established through extensive toxicology studies in laboratory
animals, using much greater doses than people could possibly consume. Its safety
was further confirmed through studies in several human subpopulations, including
healthy infants, children, adolescents, and adults; obese individuals;
diabetics; lactating women; and individuals heterozygous (PKUH) for the genetic
disease phenylketonuria (PKU) who have a decreased ability to metabolize the
essential amino acid, phenylalanine. Several scientific issues continued to be
raised after approval, largely as a concern for theoretical toxicity from its
metabolic components--the amino acids, aspartate and phenylalanine, and
methanol--even though dietary exposure to these components is much greater than
from aspartame. Nonetheless, additional research, including evaluations of
possible associations between aspartame and headaches, seizures, behavior,
cognition, and mood as well as allergic-type reactions and use by potentially
sensitive subpopulations, has continued after approval. These findings are
reviewed here. The safety testing of aspartame has gone well beyond that
required to evaluate the safety of a food additive. When all the research on
aspartame, including evaluations in both the premarketing and postmarketing
periods, is examined as a whole, it is clear that aspartame is safe, and there
are no unresolved questions regarding its safety under conditions of intended
use.PMID: 12180494 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Man, that's so surprising.
Posted by Joe Bloe on February 21, 2007, at 16:28:23
In reply to Re: Listen i have gained weight, Zyprexa, or Proza » yxibow, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 13:53:29
On Prozac 20 mgs, I gained 20 lbs in the first 2 years after losing 3 lbs in the first 3 months, all without any drastic changes in diet/exercise. So it did creep up slowly. I also feel like it makes me retain water in my face, giving me a chunky look.
Posted by laima on February 21, 2007, at 16:37:14
In reply to Re: Listen i have gained weight, Zyprexa, or Proza » yxibow, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 13:53:29
Yes, diet soda's got a load of problems, too- so I personally just avoid soda altogether, in favor of seltzer water or plain water. I do understand that sugary soda is thought to be a major source of calories for many people though, which is why I mentioned it. It's got tons of calories, but consumers don't always realizing how many they are gulping down.
Posted by yxibow on February 21, 2007, at 19:07:57
In reply to Re: Listen i have gained weight, Zyprexa, or Proza » yxibow, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 13:53:29
...which is why I didn't want to have the aspartame debate because it is so polarized. I don't speak for Monsanto and I don't speak for any side.
But the whole methanol issue regarding it, one would literally have to consume hundreds of diet sodas a day to get remotely near a level in the blood.
Saccharin (which has been proven to be non carcinogenic no matter how many studies people request and everyone of us is still here and we've downed toothpaste and pepto bismol for years if we didn't drink the earliest diet sodas), Aspartame (except for PKU sufferers), and sucralose, are 100, 1000 times better than going down a road of diabetes 2 because you've been scarfing sodas. We are a culture of soda drinkers, we have been for decades since the "soda jerks" of the early turn of the century.You can also argue that drinking anything sweet can lead to eating sweet foods, for diabetics. That is a possibility, there are no guarantees.
There are fairly safe substitutes for solid things like candy bars for diabetics (although too much will give you loose stools), e.g. maltitol.
Stevia has not been put through double blind tests. I don't think an occasional use of it is bad, but it has bitter alkaloids in it (they have to be refined out to even make it taste good -- I used to grow it for fun and I'd eat a leaf and it was sweet for a second and particularly awful afterwards.) If tests were done on refined stevia and we stuffed rats and beagles with stevia, and nothing was wrong, I have no objection.
Dextrose/glucose has 75% of the calories for the same sweet taste and is obviously GRAS (generally recognized as safe) but again, not something to be taken lightly by diabetics.
In the end, headaches, issues with various sweeteners, pale in comparison to abject obesity. So I have a few diet sodas a day. I'm still here. I also like soda water and lime. Bitter/tart things tend to quench thirst better than any sweet product just due to our taste buds. So if you've been working out in the yard, some water with lemon probably will cut the thirst even more.
We are the last of a generation to have seltzer water delivered to our door, and even that is sporadic. It used to be a time immemorial thing like getting your milk at the door. The old glass bottles with the spritzer knob. Now there's a company in argentina which makes partially plastic, partially brass ones. But those don't last as long although they're apparently popular among that community.
But I'd like to eventually keep myself on the left of the 200 side of the scale, so if it takes some diet products, so be it. Its better than converting to diabetes.- tidings
Jay
This is the end of the thread.
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