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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Cam W. on June 17, 2000, at 11:25:33
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - has anyone tried this?-Angela, posted by JohnL on June 17, 2000, at 4:29:40
John - While I agree that SJW and , to a lesser extent, SAM-e do work for depression, I think that the present hypothesis for the mechanism of action of omega-3 fatty acids (fish oils) is more in line with current therapies for bipolar disorder.
Our standard bipolar disdorder therapies (eg lithium, carbamazepine, and valproate) and possibly the newer agents seem to work on the intracellular phosphoinositol pathway. This energy dependent (ATP?) pathway regulates the flow of calcium ions into the cell and also calcium ion release from the endoplasmic reticulum. A net result of which is the propagating of a more stable action potential (electrical signal) down the axon (of the nerve cell). Stated another way, the mood stabilizers seem to "even out" the electical flow (signals) along a nerve cell and presumably from one nerve cell to the next. Omega-3 fatty acids are thought to work on this same pathway.
So, while SJW and SAM-e may help with the depressive symptoms, theoretically omega-3 fatty acids (in a concentrated enough form) should decrease mania, as well as stemming depressive symptoms. The have been one or two isolated case reports that state that SJW has caused manic switch &/or hypomanic states in some people.
Just a thought - Cam
Posted by judy1 on June 17, 2000, at 18:20:14
In reply to Fish Oil - has anyone tried this?, posted by Angela5 on June 16, 2000, at 12:55:58
Angela,
I don't see a response from ChrisA here, but I believe she had some success with it. I've tried it (bipolar), I think 6 grams a day??- my memory is doing one of it's disappearing numbers, so I may be off. They're starting a study at the University I'm close to (for bipolars). For lack of a better word- I stunk of fish, but I think I had some success with slowing my cycling. I tend to be manic though (not now) and that may have had something to do with my response. I've also have run into another drug, norvasc for hypertension, I think it's a CCB (Cam or JohnL or you other knowledgeable posters please correct me if I'm wrong), that seemed fairly calming. But I'm probably getting off the subject, I say if it works for your cousin?- go for it. Take care- Judy
Posted by JohnL on June 17, 2000, at 18:24:00
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - has anyone tried this? » JohnL , posted by Cam W. on June 17, 2000, at 11:25:33
> John - While I agree that SJW and , to a lesser extent, SAM-e do work for depression, I think that the present hypothesis for the mechanism of action of omega-3 fatty acids (fish oils) is more in line with current therapies for bipolar disorder.
>
> Our standard bipolar disdorder therapies (eg lithium, carbamazepine, and valproate) and possibly the newer agents seem to work on the intracellular phosphoinositol pathway. This energy dependent (ATP?) pathway regulates the flow of calcium ions into the cell and also calcium ion release from the endoplasmic reticulum. A net result of which is the propagating of a more stable action potential (electrical signal) down the axon (of the nerve cell). Stated another way, the mood stabilizers seem to "even out" the electical flow (signals) along a nerve cell and presumably from one nerve cell to the next. Omega-3 fatty acids are thought to work on this same pathway.
>
> So, while SJW and SAM-e may help with the depressive symptoms, theoretically omega-3 fatty acids (in a concentrated enough form) should decrease mania, as well as stemming depressive symptoms. The have been one or two isolated case reports that state that SJW has caused manic switch &/or hypomanic states in some people.
>
> Just a thought - Cam
As far as I know, you are right on the money Cam. As I've heard it, fish oil seems more implicated in bipolar rather than depression. And I've seen reports of SJW and SAMe sparking off manic reactions. I think that's just more evidence that these substances are indeed powerful ones, and that they aren't appropriate for everyone. But I guess, nothing is for that matter. These manic reactions are pretty rare though as I understand it.But for someone drowning in a deep dark hole at this very moment, no money, nowhere to go, SJW and/or SAMe become real attractive. And unless a possible manic reaction turns out to be the agitated type, it would be a most welcome change to someone suffering so badly. At least for a while. Long enough to regain some footing.
My first pdoc refused to treat me with anything except lithium. He was fearful of sparking a hypomanic episode. Any hypomanic history I've ever had was characterized by activity, energy, projects. Not the wild spendy spree or fly off the handle kind of mania. I would have welcomed some mild mania. My current pdoc on the other hand said he would be most happy if he could find a drug that would put me in a hypomanic stage. The manic advantage I think they call it. Nothing wrong with that. Lots of successful people are hypomanic and don't even know it. Some of the best songs and best books were written by artists in a state of hypomania. Certainly an attractive risk to me when compared to that deep dark hole of depression.
JohnL
Posted by CarolAnn on June 18, 2000, at 17:47:25
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - thanks, and one more question..?, posted by Angela5 on June 16, 2000, at 19:01:04
>> A question I do have is this: I eat a ton of fish anyway - does anyone know what kind of concentration of omega 3s are found in edible fish in general?>>Angela, I noticed that no one had answered this for you. It depends on what kind of fish it is that you are eating. Fish that live in cold waters are the best for omega 3s, and the very best is salmon. I'm not even sure which other kinds of fish are considered 'cold water'(cod maybe), but that should be easy to research. I read that all we need is three servings of cold water fish per week to get the recommended amount of omega 3s. Happy fishing! CarolAnn
Posted by Chris A. on June 18, 2000, at 21:35:43
In reply to Fish Oil - has anyone tried this?, posted by Angela5 on June 16, 2000, at 12:55:58
Dear Angela and all,Try the site below for reliable information on the status of Omega 3s in bipolar.
http://www.mhsource.com/pt/p991211.html
Chris A.
Posted by Angela5 on June 19, 2000, at 2:07:04
In reply to Re: question about eating fish... » Angela5, posted by CarolAnn on June 18, 2000, at 17:47:25
>
> >> A question I do have is this: I eat a ton of fish anyway - does anyone know what kind of concentration of omega 3s are found in edible fish in general?>>
>
> Angela, I noticed that no one had answered this for you. It depends on what kind of fish it is that you are eating. Fish that live in cold waters are the best for omega 3s, and the very best is salmon. I'm not even sure which other kinds of fish are considered 'cold water'(cod maybe), but that should be easy to research. I read that all we need is three servings of cold water fish per week to get the recommended amount of omega 3s. Happy fishing! CarolAnnThanks CarolAnn. It seems that salmon has the highest concentration (approx 2 grams omega 3s per 3 oz).
One interesting thing is that the unofficial 'recommended' weekly dose of omega 3s is 3.5 g, whereas the Harvard study used 6.2 g EPA and 3.4 g DHA daily.
From all of the research I've been doing, I think I may do some MODERATE fish oil supplementation for all of the health benefits it seems to provide. If it helps anything psychiatrically, that'll be a bonus. :)Angela
Posted by Steeler Tookahn on July 19, 2000, at 17:21:14
In reply to Re: question about eating fish... » CarolAnn, posted by Angela5 on June 19, 2000, at 2:07:04
About a year ago I started taking 18 grams of Omega 3 fish oils (6 -3 tid). Each 1000 mg contains EPA 360; DHA 240.
I'm not sure how much it has helped the depression but my Cholesterol level dropped from to 570 to 293. It is still dropping and I will have it tested again in another month. My triglyceride levels made an even more dramatic drop -I'd have to dig out the lab results to be specific.
About two years ago I started Synthroid for mild hypothyroid. Hypothyroid can aggravate chol/lipid levels, so that may have helped also, but the doctor feels it is the fish oils doing the trick.
Oddly (fortunately), I rarely experience any fishy taste.
Posted by JamesMay on September 29, 2007, at 16:51:04
In reply to Fish Oil - has anyone tried this?, posted by Angela5 on June 16, 2000, at 12:55:58
Noticed this from 2000 and thought of this article
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/features/article1006477.ece
I then looked up other sites for studies info and they all seemed to be saying the same thing. EPA only (no doubt there is some benefit from DHA, but maybe later). I have watched 2 nephews, who the school wanted to give ADHD drugs to, start to take EPA only (2 x 500mg a day) and in within 3 to 4 months both had improved at school. Both are still taking it and continue to do well at school.
Posted by rskontos on September 30, 2007, at 21:51:48
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - has anyone tried this?, posted by JamesMay on September 29, 2007, at 16:51:04
I used it to help me get off cymbalta. I have stopped taking the recommended dosage which I think is 4000mgs. It is used a great deal in Europe and claims are it is successful. Mine depression is returning so I think I will start back up. It helped my hair texture too so what the heck.........I certainly am not sure about it but I am willing to return to taking it while I look for more information. I don't think it can hurt you at that dosage but if anyone has information to the contrary....
Posted by lindka on September 30, 2007, at 22:12:47
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - has anyone tried this?, posted by Chris A. on June 18, 2000, at 21:35:43
I have bipolar and i am taking 1500mgs of lithium, 75mgs Zoloft and 600mg of Trileptal.
I have been taking 1700mg of EPA (2200mg total omega 3) (only 4 pils) fish oil for about 3 months and I have seen great improvement in my mood. In fact the Dr will be decreasing my lithium next visit.
You will not smell like fish or have "fish burps" if you buy a kind that is properly distilled. if you have fish burbs it means the fish oil is bad and has already oxidized.
i use "Nordic Naturals" EPA (850mg of EPA per serving) I go through 1 bottle every two weeks and each bottle is about $26. But i found a local store that gives me a 20% discount if I buy 6 bottles at a time. It is just another med that I add to my combo so it is worth the money. Not to mention all the other great benefits the omega 3's offer me.
I tell everyone. I am living proof it works.
Good luck.
Posted by rskontos on October 1, 2007, at 9:47:06
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - i take it, posted by lindka on September 30, 2007, at 22:12:47
I use the Nordic Naturals too. Where do you buy it that gives you a discount. I usually just buy it online and you can sometimes find it on sale. I buy it straight from them. It is good to find someone else taking it. The nordic naturals doesn't make me burp either and I usually take it on an empty stomach because I don't like breakfast. I am glad to hear it helps your moods. I think maybe I really need to resume it. I felt better on it and I ain't doing so good now. Thanks for the reminder.
Posted by lindka on October 1, 2007, at 10:28:36
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - i take it, posted by rskontos on October 1, 2007, at 9:47:06
I buy it from a store called "the good earth" in jacksonville, FL..try and find a small ma and pa store in your area, they will be more willing to give you a discount.
i know...its nice to meet someone else who takes it. i stopped for a while too and i am so glad i got back on it..it is expensive but so worth it for our minds and bodies. good for hair, skin and memory.
i give my 4year old a kid version by them. it is a strawberry liquid and she loves it. it has improved her learning and attitude. i swear, this stuff is a miricle!!!
i know when we start to feel better we think we do not need it anymore...but...because we feel better means we need to keep taking it.
it took me about two weeks after taking it to start seeing an improvement in mood and it got better from there..trust me, i still have bad days and wonder if anything works, but my mom tells me all the time how i am doing (sometmes it takes a third party-to see outside ourselves) and this stuff has been way more of a benefit than anything else.
best of luck to you and God Bless :)
Posted by rskontos on October 1, 2007, at 11:17:57
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - i take it » rskontos, posted by lindka on October 1, 2007, at 10:28:36
Thanks Lindka, I am really feeling bad so I will take it. You are right I was feeling good when I quit and I quit therapy because I felt like I had everything handled and now I can't do anything. I can't clean my house, work or do anything. I feel like a great big nothing. Oh I am wrong I can cry.
Posted by brooke484 on October 1, 2007, at 11:19:02
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - i take it » rskontos, posted by lindka on October 1, 2007, at 10:28:36
Do you also use Nordic Naturals?
Posted by lindka on October 1, 2007, at 11:35:36
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - i take it - lindka, posted by brooke484 on October 1, 2007, at 11:19:02
yes here is a link to what I use:
https://www.nordicnaturals.com/direct/prodsummary.asp?ID=14
hope this helps
Posted by lindka on October 1, 2007, at 11:47:44
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - i take it, posted by rskontos on October 1, 2007, at 11:17:57
rskontos,
you are not a “nothing”. You are a person with a plan and a purpose in this world, who happens to have a disorder that can be debilitating...yet...I bet you are smart and creative!! (BP might take from us but it gives us some pretty awesome traits too) Your willingness to seek out treatment means you do have power over it. it doesn’t matter how many times you fall, what matters is that you keep getting back up and trying...listen to me I sound like a hallmark card ;) get back on the fish oil and see what happens. It can’t hurt you, just make that your first step.
lindka
Posted by rskontos on October 1, 2007, at 13:18:57
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - i take it » rskontos, posted by lindka on October 1, 2007, at 11:47:44
Well thanks for the Hallmark card I n eed it and the laugh because I have been crying today so you made my day. And I too take the nordic naturals as sometimes I can't tell if a ? is being directed at me or not, and I am on topamx or stupidomax. Lindka, again thanks for the pep talk as I do need it today. I am feeling pretty low but after I got your first post I went and pop my fish oil and I hope in two weeks maybe more as I take a higher dose I will feel better. :)
Posted by brooke484 on October 1, 2007, at 19:37:48
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - i take it - lindka » brooke484, posted by lindka on October 1, 2007, at 11:35:36
Thanks. I bought one brand and I swear it made me feel worse. I think it was pretty cheap though. I don't know why one fish oil would better than the other, but I'll definitely check the Nordic Naturals out. When you're desperate you'll try anything.
Thanks again.
Posted by rskontos on October 2, 2007, at 10:07:44
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - i take it - lindka, posted by brooke484 on October 1, 2007, at 19:37:48
My one friend that is a chiro who sells it explained it to me and I can't right now explain it, topamax fog, but there is a reason. She swears but the Nordic Naturals. If you get the stomach upset, you can freeze them and take them, it will not affect the way they work. Good luck. RK
Posted by lindka on October 2, 2007, at 12:00:30
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - i take it - lindka, posted by rskontos on October 2, 2007, at 10:07:44
oh wow..neat tip, thanks!
Posted by brooke484 on October 3, 2007, at 19:20:12
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - i take it - lindka » brooke484, posted by lindka on October 1, 2007, at 11:35:36
When do you take it? All at once or twice a day? I bought the same brand you use and I think I'll probably just take 1-2 pills a day.
Thanks.
Posted by lindka on October 3, 2007, at 20:04:01
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - i take it - lindka, posted by brooke484 on October 3, 2007, at 19:20:12
i take two in the morning and two at night.
good luck :)
Posted by brooke484 on October 4, 2007, at 8:37:06
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - i take it - lindka » brooke484, posted by lindka on October 3, 2007, at 20:04:01
Thanks so much. I'll give it a shot.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 4, 2007, at 10:22:30
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - i take it, posted by lindka on September 30, 2007, at 22:12:47
> You will not smell like fish or have "fish burps" if you buy a kind that is properly distilled. if you have fish burbs it means the fish oil is bad and has already oxidized.
Not necessarily. Even a high quality brand could be of poor quality when purchased, if it has not been handled properly between the time it's been cleaned up, and when you buy it. Fish oil is perishable.
The other thing is it also matters how you take it. If taken on an empty stomach, even the best quality of fish oil can oxidize in stomach acid. The oxidation products are volatile aldehydes and ketones, which give the characteristic stale fish aroma/taste to what some call "seal burps". Always take fish oil with food, preferably one with other fats in it.
Lar
Posted by lindka on October 4, 2007, at 13:55:50
In reply to Re: Fish Oil - i take it » lindka, posted by Larry Hoover on October 4, 2007, at 10:22:30
with Nordic Naturals I have never tasted or smelled fish. here below is taken from the website nordicnaturals.com
"Freshness, which ensures product integrity and biological efficacy, may be the single most important quality of fish oils. Nordic Naturals’ patented, oxygen free manufacturing process delivers peroxide values (indicators of freshness) down to absolute 0.0 mEq/kg, with an average of 0.75 mEq/kg or approximately 14 times below the Norwegian Medicinal Standard and European Pharmacopoeia Standard limits. The lower the peroxide value, the fresher the fish oil.
Freshness is crucial for several reasons. It eliminates key complaints of taking fish oil, which are fishy taste and fishy repeat. On the physiological level, a low peroxide value prevents free radical formation, which has been shown to have a negative effect on the human body.
A low peroxide value may be the key reason why so many people, who previously did not benefit from fish oil supplementation, report extraordinary results when using the Nordic Naturals brand.
Effects of Rancid Oils
Aside from fishy taste and smell, ingesting rancid oils has a negative effect on the human body. In vitro studies show that oxidated DHA, known as F4-neuroprostanes, have been detected in patients with Alzheimer’s disease at levels higher than in control groups. It has been determined that the formation of F4-neuroprostane might adversely effect neuronal function as a result of the alterations they induce in the biophysical properties of neuronal membranes. Several aldehyde compounds that result from oxidative degradation of Omega-3
fatty acids have been shown to be harmful to human cells."Therefore if we buy it within the expiration date we can feel confident it is the best for our bodies with no fish burps.
i have taken it with and without food and never tasted fish.
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