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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Questionmark on November 12, 2007, at 2:01:48
Anyone who might have any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, etc. on this, please supply them. I would greatly appreciate it.
One of the things that concerns me a great deal with being on Nardil still (as did being on Paxil back in the day i think) is cognitive dulling-- and word finding/ articulating difficulties and long-term memory fogginess in particular. For the purpose of this thread i'll just focus on the memory fogginess.
Now i'm not sure if Nardil (or Paxil in the past) is affecting my long-term memory at all or not. But i feel like it is and has been. It's possible that i'm just not used to having that many more years in my past to sort through (being now in my later 20s); that essentially i'm just getting older. Part of the problem too is that i'm so damn obsessively sentimental and analytical of my past and my life (that is, more-so than the average person it seems). So i'm not sure if i'm just wanting to have this hoard of clear memories and knowledge of the periods in which they occurred, since i was a child, when in actuality at this age that's not possible because there are just too many -- OR if my long-term memory has actually become horrendously poor and foggy and there's actually something wrong with it-- or something in between.
So i'm wondering if other people who have been on serotonergic antidepressants, particularly Nardil, for awhile are also perceiving the same thing or not really. I just feel like i remembered my past so much better before i got on Paxil and then Nardil. Maybe NOT though. I CAN'T REMEMBER!
Anyway, any comments, or whatever, would be appreciated. Thank you.
And i'm sorry for my obsessing, if it is, and my selfishness.
My god we are all products aren't we? No skip that.
Posted by Phillipa on November 12, 2007, at 10:34:07
In reply to Nardil or SSRIs + Cognition, + LongTerm Memory esp, posted by Questionmark on November 12, 2007, at 2:01:48
You are very young. Maybe because I'm much older I clearly remember my past. But I've been on benzos solely most of my life. Not til my 50's did I get put on an antidepressant paxil l0mg first and it was with benzos no memory loss and now the low luvox dose. I think I remember too much. I have had MRI's do you think if you had one and it was normal you would feel better about your memory? Just a thought as I've had two both showed aging normal for age. Phillipa feel better soon.
Posted by circusboy on November 12, 2007, at 15:34:34
In reply to Nardil or SSRIs + Cognition, + LongTerm Memory esp, posted by Questionmark on November 12, 2007, at 2:01:48
No, I understand... And you're not being selfish; you're worried that an essential part of yourself has been taken away by the drugs.
That said. Your memory in general might have been worse on Paxil not because of its primary effects on the serotonin transporter, but because of its secondary effects on acetylcholine receptors. I've never tried Paxil, though, so I can't say from personal experience.
My recall is generally better on serotonin drugs. (My concentration / working memory was problematic on Prozac, but I'm not sure I can generalize from that drug. Now that I think about it, my memory was also very strange -- I was good at making creative connections and using my prior knowledge, but there are big gaps that I don't remember from that time). What they /can/ do is separate me a bit from my emotions, so that my memories aren't so rich or intense.
We'll see -- I've just started Zoloft again -- but I'm starting to think this might be an acceptable trade-off. Without a small chemical boost, my memory is bad and I'm often confused by little things (am I heading the right way on the highway? what is the name of that ... thing?), and I'm much less optimistic, curious, and motivated. I'm not as good in conversation. Lately, I've been having disturbing obsessive thoughts and fears that I'm going to screw up (on purpose!) at work.
So yeah... your memories were probably more colorful before the drugs. But they may not be any better if you quit at this point.
(One thing I can't speak to is Nardil's pharmacodynamics. Maybe someone else?)
> Anyone who might have any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, etc. on this, please supply them. I would greatly appreciate it.
> One of the things that concerns me a great deal with being on Nardil still (as did being on Paxil back in the day i think) is cognitive dulling-- and word finding/ articulating difficulties and long-term memory fogginess in particular. For the purpose of this thread i'll just focus on the memory fogginess.
> Now i'm not sure if Nardil (or Paxil in the past) is affecting my long-term memory at all or not. But i feel like it is and has been. It's possible that i'm just not used to having that many more years in my past to sort through (being now in my later 20s); that essentially i'm just getting older. Part of the problem too is that i'm so damn obsessively sentimental and analytical of my past and my life (that is, more-so than the average person it seems). So i'm not sure if i'm just wanting to have this hoard of clear memories and knowledge of the periods in which they occurred, since i was a child, when in actuality at this age that's not possible because there are just too many -- OR if my long-term memory has actually become horrendously poor and foggy and there's actually something wrong with it-- or something in between.
> So i'm wondering if other people who have been on serotonergic antidepressants, particularly Nardil, for awhile are also perceiving the same thing or not really. I just feel like i remembered my past so much better before i got on Paxil and then Nardil. Maybe NOT though. I CAN'T REMEMBER!
> Anyway, any comments, or whatever, would be appreciated. Thank you.
> And i'm sorry for my obsessing, if it is, and my selfishness.
> My god we are all products aren't we? No skip that.
Posted by Questionmark on November 15, 2007, at 1:32:02
In reply to Re: Nardil or SSRIs + Cognition, + LongTerm Memory esp » Questionmark, posted by Phillipa on November 12, 2007, at 10:34:07
I dunno. Even if I could afford a not-medically necessary MRI, it might not be that reassuring. I don't know how much MRIs actually show. I mean could one be having neurophysiological changes that manifest as significant psychological changes but that aren't neurophysiologically significant enough to show up on an MRI as an abnormality? I don't know. But anyway I have long thought that an MRI would be an extremely interesting and potentially useful test to have. Maybe someday.
Thanks for the response.> You are very young. Maybe because I'm much older I clearly remember my past. But I've been on benzos solely most of my life. Not til my 50's did I get put on an antidepressant paxil l0mg first and it was with benzos no memory loss and now the low luvox dose. I think I remember too much. I have had MRI's do you think if you had one and it was normal you would feel better about your memory? Just a thought as I've had two both showed aging normal for age. Phillipa feel better soon.
Posted by Questionmark on November 15, 2007, at 2:02:34
In reply to Re: Nardil or SSRIs + Cognition, + LongTerm Memory, posted by circusboy on November 12, 2007, at 15:34:34
Thank you.
Several things. You said there are big gaps in what you remember from the time you were on Prozac? That seems to support exactly what I'm talking about. In regard to Paxil's slight anticholinergic effect, I think it would be more than that. I feel like Nardil has been doing the same thing (to my memory), yet it has no anticholinergic properties as far as I know.
Yes, no, it FEELS like it's tied to the fact that being on these serotonergic drugs results in having memories that, as you said, "aren't so rich or intense". I guess that in itself equals a less clear memory. But even further, i'm afraid that after going so much time not thinking about your memories as clearly or emotionally or even frequently, they start to fade-- so that they become less clear, or even disappear (and even if and after one has discontinued the drug). But then I think, maybe this is inescapable, for maybe that is one of the (if indirect) antidepressant qualities of the drug-- to keep my past and my memories from entering my consciousness and depressing the ____ out of me. I don't know. I don't know if I'm explaining myself well. Damn it.
I dunno though. It also even seems like the experiences that I'm having while ON the drug become less vivid and detailed in my memory, too. It's like... I don't know.
Ah shoot. I dunno.
I guess I just want to know if this is normal or not. Cuz if it's normal-- for everyone, including those not on drugs-- then I can better accept it. If it's not normal and is actually the drugs; the Nardil... I can't accept it. So i'd just like to know.
But you're right, my memory, as with my cognition, would probably not be any better at this point even if I quit my drug. Because then depression would be consuming my mind to the point of near paralysis.
Ah i love this life.
> No, I understand... And you're not being selfish; you're worried that an essential part of yourself has been taken away by the drugs.
>
> That said. Your memory in general might have been worse on Paxil not because of its primary effects on the serotonin transporter, but because of its secondary effects on acetylcholine receptors. I've never tried Paxil, though, so I can't say from personal experience.
>
> My recall is generally better on serotonin drugs. (My concentration / working memory was problematic on Prozac, but I'm not sure I can generalize from that drug. Now that I think about it, my memory was also very strange -- I was good at making creative connections and using my prior knowledge, but there are big gaps that I don't remember from that time). What they /can/ do is separate me a bit from my emotions, so that my memories aren't so rich or intense.
>
> We'll see -- I've just started Zoloft again -- but I'm starting to think this might be an acceptable trade-off. Without a small chemical boost, my memory is bad and I'm often confused by little things (am I heading the right way on the highway? what is the name of that ... thing?), and I'm much less optimistic, curious, and motivated. I'm not as good in conversation. Lately, I've been having disturbing obsessive thoughts and fears that I'm going to screw up (on purpose!) at work.
>
> So yeah... your memories were probably more colorful before the drugs. But they may not be any better if you quit at this point.
>
> (One thing I can't speak to is Nardil's pharmacodynamics. Maybe someone else?)
>
Posted by Sigismund on November 15, 2007, at 10:23:08
In reply to Re: Nardil or SSRIs + Cognition, + LongTerm Memory, posted by Questionmark on November 15, 2007, at 2:02:34
Memory does change over time.
You might have known old people who have relatively few well worn memories left to go over?
So I wonder if part of it is a normal function of ageing, and it may be the case that chemical stress accelerates the process.
Posted by circusboy on November 18, 2007, at 10:32:47
In reply to Re: Nardil or SSRIs + Cognition, + LongTerm Memory, posted by Questionmark on November 15, 2007, at 2:02:34
> Yes, no, it FEELS like it's tied to the fact that being on these serotonergic drugs results in having memories that, as you said, "aren't so rich or intense". I guess that in itself equals a less clear memory. But even further, i'm afraid that after going so much time not thinking about your memories as clearly or emotionally or even frequently, they start to fade-- so that they become less clear, or even disappear (and even if and after one has discontinued the drug). But then I think, maybe this is inescapable, for maybe that is one of the (if indirect) antidepressant qualities of the drug-- to keep my past and my memories from entering my consciousness and depressing the ____ out of me. I don't know. I don't know if I'm explaining myself well. Damn it.
>
You're explaining yourself very well. You're an expressive writer. What you're saying makes perfect sense... and may very well be an effect that is therapeutic. Still, is it the whole story?When I quit the drugs, my memories and emotions felt a good bit more "real." For a time. And I had a much clearer perspective on a long-term relationship I'd recently (months prior) ended. I was so happy to be off Prozac. Just on some Ritalin, there was a general improvement in my cognition, etc., over some months. (Condensing a few other antidepressant trials between Prozac and this point out of the story). Then improvement stalled. Then I started backsliding. Yes, the emotional content of my memories were better... when I could manage to create them! I was so fuzzy-brained. Terrible recall. I could practically feel my hippocampus shrinking.
I don't regret quitting for a while, though. It gave me some perspective on my illness. It's not as bad as I thought it was. I have a mild chronic condition. Probably what they call "double depression," but with mostly shallow major depressive episodes (though I have had a couple of deep ones). I'm not crazy-neurotic-doomed like I thought I was. But to succeed in my life I probably do need some medical help.
> I dunno though. It also even seems like the experiences that I'm having while ON the drug become less vivid and detailed in my memory, too. It's like... I don't know.
> Ah shoot. I dunno.
> I guess I just want to know if this is normal or not. Cuz if it's normal-- for everyone, including those not on drugs-- then I can better accept it. If it's not normal and is actually the drugs; the Nardil... I can't accept it. So i'd just like to know.
>
> But you're right, my memory, as with my cognition, would probably not be any better at this point even if I quit my drug. Because then depression would be consuming my mind to the point of near paralysis.
> Ah i love this life.
>
Yeah... The drugs probably are screwing with some aspects of your memory. But they're probably helping with others. The subtle side-effects like these are the hardest to take, I think.-cb
Posted by 49er on November 18, 2007, at 12:09:53
In reply to Nardil or SSRIs + Cognition, + LongTerm Memory esp, posted by Questionmark on November 12, 2007, at 2:01:48
Hi Questionmark,
I was on Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Doxepin, and Remeron. Before I started tapering off of these meds, my already bad memory (learning disabilities) worsened considerably on these meds. I woud lose things and have no memory of losing them as it was like I never owned them to begin with. I found that very scary.
Alot of people blew me off and said it was menopause, which I didn't believe for a minute. Once I started tapering these meds, my memory improved considerably. I could get ready to leave for work and all of a sudden, remember I was forgetting something like my lunch. That wouldn't have happened on a full complement of meds.
Unfortunately, as I get lower in the amount of meds I am taking, the memory problem is worsening again. I understand what when you taper, things like this will happen.
In my opinion, your concerns are definitely valid and you are not being selfish by raising them. Only you can decide if the benefits are greater than these side effects. I decided that for me personally, they weren't. For me, tapering off these meds is one of the best decisions I have ever made in my life. Of course, you mileage may vary.
49er
Posted by Questionmark on November 20, 2007, at 11:32:57
In reply to Re: Nardil or SSRIs + Cognition, + LongTerm Memory, posted by 49er on November 18, 2007, at 12:09:53
This is the end of the thread.
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