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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by desolationrower on January 10, 2009, at 1:34:23
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 21:55:53
> > yes exactly there are many ways to decrease inflammation.
>
> I'm sure there are.
>
> The thing with doxycycline is that it seems to work in clinical settings. Unfortunately, the many other substances mentioned along this thread have not been tested to the best of my knowledge.
>
> Brain inflammation as a characteristic of Alzheimers Dementia:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18673008?ordinalpos=19&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
>
>
> Doxycycline is effective in reducing inflammation by inhibiting matrix metalloproteinases:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19088876?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
>
>
> A trial of doxycycline in Alzheimers Disease:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14962152?ordinalpos=11&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
>
>
> Taken together, these abstracts suggest that doxycycline reduces brain inflammation via a mechanism unrelated to its antibiotic effects, and that this drug is effective in treating Alzheimers Disease behavioral and mood aberations, presumably by reducing brain inflammation.
>
> I am sure that not all anti-inflammatories are built alike. I would be cautious in wanting to declare all anti-inflammatory substances of equal value in treating the various neuropsychiatric illnesses.
>
>
> - ScottYes, there is a multitude of inflammatory cytokines, but this thread is hardly littered with links to studies showing this particular drug is an effective antidepressant. I can't tell if you are arguing that it would be one, because it is antinflammatory, or that the reason it is effective is the antiinflamatory action. Either way i don't see much evidence.
-d/r
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2009, at 3:32:22
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by desolationrower on January 10, 2009, at 1:34:23
> Yes, there is a multitude of inflammatory cytokines, but this thread is hardly littered with links to studies showing this particular drug is an effective antidepressant.
> Either way i don't see much evidence.
For new ideas and anecdotal observations, there is often very little scientific study to yield the kind of evidence you are looking for.
I cannot personally attest to the efficacy of doxycycline. It did not produce a therapeutic effect for me. Nor can I point to another person as an example.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2009, at 3:42:32
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » SLS, posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2009, at 0:20:21
> Seriously is there a reason you're concerned with Alzheimer's?
Always. I tend to be attracted to the phenomenology of CNS disorders.
Here, I use Alzheimers as an example of a brain disorder for which inflammation has been observed, and the efficacy of doxycyline documented. Furthermore, the symptoms that were reduced included depression and behavioral aberations.
> They do have new meds requip and others for Alzheimers.
Hmm. I didn't know Requip was therapeutic in Alzheimers.
> I think no sure there is also a test for Alzheimer's gene or something like that.
Depression, too. Linkage studies point the finger at a number of different chromosomes.
> I'd think periodic MRI's of brain would at least show normal aging of brain.
You lost me on this one.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by raisinb on January 10, 2009, at 13:10:25
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
Very,very interesting. Wouldn't it be wonderful if that worked for a substantial subset of depressed patients?
Not so good for those of us prone to yeast infections, however ;)
Posted by bulldog2 on January 10, 2009, at 13:18:53
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
> Hi.
>
>
> It might sound weird at first, but some of us might be candidates for doxycycline therapy. My guess is that the brain is in a state of chronic inflammation. These people are full of cytokines, which produce inflammation. This inflammation is aggravated each time one suffers a systemic infection, as bacteria induce the production of cytokines by the immune system. Doxycycline does more than just kill little critters, which in itself could be an enormous help. It also acts as an anti-inflammatory in the brain by inhibiting cytokine production. The idea is to prevent infections and reduce cytokine-induced inflammation of the brain. People who are treated with doxycycline for depression must remain on it for quite awhile before results are seen - sometimes six months. If it works, you just stay on it indefinitely. Doxycycline is generally benign with regard to side effects. Of course, if you are allergic to the tetracyclines, you must put this idea aside. Signs of subsyndromal infection and/or inflammation include a chronic increase in the number of white blood cells (WBC), particularly monocytes. One could go for a cytokine immunoassay, but I do not believe it is worth the expense. The bottom line is that this stuff is for real, and one cannot be sure if targeting brain inflammation will help until it is tried. One interesting observation by my doctor is that some people will actually feel worse at first. He believes this is actually a good sign. My guess is that the accumulation of dead bacteria and their lysing provides an increase in the proteins that stimulate phagocyte production. The process of phagocytosis stimulates the secretion of cytokines by these active phagocytes. I really don't know for sure.
>
> If you are interested to research this yourself, you can find supportive literature for all of these pieces of this puzzle. However, you are going to have to put the pieces together for yourself. I haven't yet found any one article that would produce an explanation as I have here.
>
> I tried doxycycline for 6 months. Nothing good - nothing bad. Systemic infections do not make my depression worses. However, if you do experience a worsening of depression associated with an infection, you might want to look further into doxycycline treatment. Doxycycline is preferred over monocycline. I think doxycycline inhibits more potently the secretion of cytokines.
>
> I almost forgot to mention: Some of the drugs in the antidepressant pipeline are neurokinin (NK1 and NK2) receptor antagonists (blockers). Neurokinin is a subtype of cytokine. This is an elegant way to prevent brain inflammation. Even if cytokine levels are elevated, its target receptor never sees it and thus does not respond with an inflammation reaction.
>
>
> - ScottAlso there is a theory that arthritis is caused by infection and that antibiotic treatment may work better than many of the current painkillers being used.
Posted by Sissy35 on January 10, 2009, at 15:31:11
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
I understand your premise but do you think this would work on someone who has MS with so many brain lesions the MRI looks like swiss cheese?
Plus our brains and spinal cords are more or less inflamed in one area most of the time. If so it would seem to me this would be a breakthrough treatment. You should go into research if so.Thanks MR S
sissy 35
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2009, at 15:48:37
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » SLS, posted by Sissy35 on January 10, 2009, at 15:31:11
> I understand your premise but do you think this would work on someone who has MS with so many brain lesions the MRI looks like swiss cheese?
> Plus our brains and spinal cords are more or less inflamed in one area most of the time. If so it would seem to me this would be a breakthrough treatment. You should go into research if so.About all I knew about MS is that it was an autoimmune disease that attacked Schwann cells and demyelinated nerve fibers.
Since you asked...
Combination therapy with interferon beta-1a and doxycycline in multiple sclerosis: an open-label trial.
Hee hee.
- Scott
Posted by Sissy35 on January 10, 2009, at 15:58:29
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » Sissy35, posted by SLS on January 10, 2009, at 15:48:37
Allergic to interferon beta but will check it out anyway. I can't take any of the MS drugs anymore. IMO they don't work anyway. I would rather rely on LDN, more luck than with other drugs.
bye mr s
sissy35
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2009, at 16:08:45
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » SLS, posted by Sissy35 on January 10, 2009, at 15:58:29
Wait for the neurokinin-1 antagonists that are being developed for depression. They might help MS as well.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2009, at 18:57:34
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » SLS, posted by Sissy35 on January 10, 2009, at 15:58:29
Sissy write with a girl from another country on LDN funny you mention as invited to join a group for LDN I could find the link if you like? She takes it for sjornes another autoimmune disease. Wonder if it helps with all the autoimmune diseases? Love Phillipa
Posted by psychobot5000 on January 10, 2009, at 23:41:09
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
Let me approach this from a slightly different angle. I know a patient, mid twenties I guess, who like many of us here has severe depression. The two outstanding areas of his health (as far as i know) are this depression and...severe allergies to a vast assortment of things: cats, pollen, you name it. And he says his mood gets worse on 'bad allergen days.'
Well, don't allergies cause inflammation in various areas of the body--granted, focused on the lungs, nose or wherever peripheral contact is made, but I'm pretty sure I've read that allergens tend to penetrate deep within the body as well. Mightn't some allergens get to the brain, and cause inflammation there? Might not the two outstanding aspects of this case (to an observer), i.e. the depression and his body's tendency to overreact to a wide variety of microscopic foreign bodies, be related? Well, in any case, I'm throwing the thought out there to see if it's useful at all. Severe Environmental allergies>>nervous system inflammation>>caused or exacerbated depression.
I suppose that allergy shots might be a theoretical way of trying to treat such a patient's depression...(based on the doxycycline hypothesis)... since they also suppress the inflammatory reaction.
Just a thought.
Posted by Sissy35 on January 11, 2009, at 0:03:58
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by psychobot5000 on January 10, 2009, at 23:41:09
Actually the way alergies work is the body sees it as a toxic agent so the body builds up antibodies against these agents, and they float all through the blood stream, including the brain. When the toxic agent (say peanuts) enters the body it goes into all out attack mode.
Allergies can and do cause depression and you are correct allergy shots do help. I do't see how antibiotics could help, but have been wrong before(but I'm Not} unlike Scott who was only wrong once.
Sissy35
Posted by Sissy35 on January 11, 2009, at 0:08:33
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » Sissy35, posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2009, at 18:57:34
It is supposed to be good for may diseases have you checked it out? I was hoping it would help my thyroid. No deal. I know of person who is using to treat cancer. I wish it would help my spelling disease!!!!!!!
sissy
Posted by Garnet71 on January 11, 2009, at 0:13:29
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
There's a few people here who say this antibiotic causes depression. hmm.
http://www.healingwell.com/community/default.aspx?f=19&m=662439
I'm not surprised about the inflammation though. I've been reading report after report suspecting inflammation to be the cause of just about everything!
Posted by SLS on January 11, 2009, at 7:35:29
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by Garnet71 on January 11, 2009, at 0:13:29
> There's a few people here who say this antibiotic causes depression. hmm.
As I mentioned in my first post, some people feel worse while taking doxycyline early in treatment. My doctor has seen people who demonstrate this reaction go on to respond well. He thinks this worsening is a sign that the drug is doing something positive that eventually yields an improvement of depression. Some people need to be on doxycyline for 6 months to see resuls.
Two caveats:
1. This treatment might not really work.
2. This treatment might cause a small minority of people feel worse.I do think that chronic treatment with doxycycline deserves a good look at for treating depression.
Psychobot5000: You bring up an interesting point about the role systemic allergic reactions might have in the pathogenesis of at least some cases of depression.
- Scott
Posted by Garnet71 on January 11, 2009, at 11:06:38
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 11, 2009, at 7:35:29
I wonder if I should give this a try (since all my treatment is nothing but trial and error anyway).
I did find a tick in me once, from a high Lyme area. Didn't get tested until about 4 years later. Maybe this is worth a try.
You have to wonder how much illness is caused by viruses or bacteria. Since I learned scientists discovered HPV is a virus that causes cervical cancer, I have been thinking about this.
Herpes virus--is in many different forms and causes shingles--which attaches to nerve tissue. I wonder how much of our 'disease' is caused by this virus?
Some people are genetically immune to viruses..this could account for those who do not get mental illnesses, rather than what is believed to be the other way around--that we have mental illness genes.
Posted by Garnet71 on January 11, 2009, at 16:38:33
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
I read this antibiotic is the popular anti-malaria treatment. My military friend was taking an anti malaria drug for months. Coincidentally or not, he now has central sleep apnea (autonomous nervous system disorder?) and what seems to be permanent sleep problems and insomnia. Anyone know anything about this?
Posted by Garnet71 on January 11, 2009, at 16:52:22
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
It was interesting to find this comment on that last link I sent:
January 20th
2008
5:12 PMThis is odd to read all of these. I'm getting the exact opposite effects. I have a mood disorder which consists of depression and anxiety. I take 5mg Lexapro antidepressant for this. In the past 4 days I've been taking 200mg daily Doxycycline for sinusitis and noticed that I do not feel at all sleepy by bedtime. I notice that I am energetic, a bit too much, during the day, and food does not taste and smell like it usually does. I feel a bit too energetic and even a glass of wine in the evening doesn't seem to help me relax.
I can take this medicine on an empty stomach with no problems. I just noticed that I have lots of energy. I can't complain, as I'm only going to be taking this antibiotic for ten days. I usually have to take a nap in the afternoons on many days. Not anymore.
-- By spice_o_life | Reply | Private Message me
Posted by Neal on January 14, 2009, at 19:13:11
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by Garnet71 on January 11, 2009, at 16:52:22
This thread reminds me of a woman I knew who thought she had depression, was seeing a Pdoc and the whole nine yards. She found out she had Lyme Disease and that relieved her symtoms (she said).
There are no doubt some people out there who think they have depression, who really have Lyme Disease. (but it's a very small percent I'm sure)
Posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2009, at 21:04:41
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by Neal on January 14, 2009, at 19:13:11
Count me in that per centage as do have chronic lymes disease. All problems started when diagnosed. The infection control doc as no idea when contacted it. Endo said this week might want to see another one as still positive Western Blot. Just didn't get doxy long enough. Phillipa also found out the newsletter on lymes isn't running anymore the moderator died of lymes. Sad.
Posted by jrbecker76 on January 19, 2009, at 14:14:45
In reply to Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 7:46:40
I have just been coincidentally prescribed doxycycline (100 mg 2x daily) for an infection. I have been on it for 3 days and have definitely noticed some antidepressant effects. However, it has also come with some side effects of mild dizziness and general apathy.
JB
Posted by SLS on January 19, 2009, at 16:54:05
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by jrbecker76 on January 19, 2009, at 14:14:45
> I have just been coincidentally prescribed doxycycline (100 mg 2x daily) for an infection. I have been on it for 3 days and have definitely noticed some antidepressant effects. However, it has also come with some side effects of mild dizziness and general apathy.
The apathy is probably temporary. Some people seem to go through a period of worsening before their head clears and they feel better. Anyway, I don't care how you get well, as long as it happens. If my doctor's doxycycline treatments are genuinely effective, I hope you glean a robust improvement from it. Perhaps this effect, even if only transient, will provide you with clues as to your psychobiology in order to brainstorm new treatment regimes.
Thank you for coming to visit us every now and again. Please keep us posted.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on January 19, 2009, at 21:14:32
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by jrbecker76 on January 19, 2009, at 14:14:45
Hi Jr the first time prescribed doxycyclline for lymes disease noticed the twitching in leg muscles went away could it have been working? I second the welcome from Scott. Know how busy you are. Love Phillipa
Posted by hadmattress on October 11, 2013, at 20:12:28
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression » jrbecker76, posted by Phillipa on January 19, 2009, at 21:14:32
> Hi Jr the first time prescribed doxycyclline for lymes disease noticed the twitching in leg muscles went away could it have been working? I second the welcome from Scott. Know how busy you are. Love Phillipa
I have a theory as to the etiology of some mental illness and why the tetracycline antibiotics are effective. Hear me out.
I'm a 27 year-old woman who has been researching and self-treating mental illness (formerly Bipolar II) for about four years. I have to tell you an anecdote in order for you to understand my theory.
Several months ago I began having a severe exacerbation of OCD, depression, tics, ADHD, compromised fluency of speech, acne, body dysmorphia (feeling like I didn't want to be in my own skin), dizziness, ataxia, psychosis and forgetfulness only to discover that the man I had been living with was a clinical psychopath and had been using the neurobehavioral toxicology research I imparted to him against me by putting large doses of iron supplements in the food he cooked me. I got out of that situation immediately, but not without having suffered a pretty big hit to my mental and physical health.
I put myself to work figuring out how to eliminate the iron. Now, you should know that I have been using the Andy Cutler protocol to chelate mercury after removing my mercury dental amalgams. His protocol helped me recover drastically (that's how I managed to turn my suicidal Bipolar II into unipolar anhedonia/dysthymia), but I hit a plateau. "Maybe a lot of the symptoms I have experienced are related to iron toxicity, considering the fortification of food using non-bioavailable iron (beginning most substantially in the 1940s)." I researched, and sure enough, iron deposition in the basal ganglia is found in a lot of these disorders, including depression, Tourette's and OCD.
I started researching iron chelators and learned that tetracycline antibiotics form insoluble complexes with iron, hence why you are told to take iron separately from them. Minocycline can be used after a stroke to chelate iron, which protects the brain from neuronal death from oxidative damage, inflammation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21998050
So, I purchased minocycline in order to "clean up" my brain. Of course, iron feeds pathogens, which is how iron chelating antibiotics work-- they starve them out by sequestering the iron. Ferritin is not a good indicator of iron storage considering the body quarantines iron in the organs to protect itself during chronic illness and infection, so you can even appear to be anemic with iron overload (also copper deficiency which is sometimes (paradoxically) paired with copper toxicity due to biounavailable copper can cause iron overload). The body is refusing to give the iron to feed the pathogens, or cause further inflammation by releasing it into the bloodstream, but all this iron build-up in the organs is toxic.
Here is the problem, Andy Cutler PhD says that you MUST take any chelator at a very low dose on the half-life. Taking it at a low dose allows the body to eliminate the heavy metals in a way that doesn't overload your bloodstream with toxins, causing all sorts of unwanted side effects. Your body's detoxification system simply cannot keep up with a large amount of toxic metals circulating for a few hours. Taking the chelator on the half-life prevents the metals from redistributing. Think of a chelator as little hands that pick up toxins: if there aren't a constant stream of hands to hold onto the toxins, the toxins get dropped causing more damage to tissues. The more hands (i.e. chelator), the more toxins are mobilized from tissues and thus a greater toxic burden when the drug is eliminated.
When I received my minocycline, I started taking very small doses (10mg every 8 hours approximately). Most of my symptoms were significantly lessened, but I ended up having a hypersensitivity reaction after a couple weeks, which is (I'm sure you know) not uncommon with minocycline, and so I had to stop taking it. I am going to order doxycycline and try again with that. At the moment I'm taking deferasirox, another iron chelator, which is working well (as evidenced by the fact that I'm writing this to begin with).
Anyway, just my two cents.
Posted by psychobot5000 on October 11, 2013, at 22:10:55
In reply to Re: Antibiotic (doxycycline) treatment for depression, posted by hadmattress on October 11, 2013, at 20:13:09
My curiousity is certainly piqued. Re: presence of iron in certain brain regions, must note that correlation is not causation. Still. Anyone with relevant nutritive/pharmaceutical expertise able to comment?
>
> I have a theory as to the etiology of some mental illness and why the tetracycline antibiotics are effective. Hear me out.
>
> I'm a 27 year-old woman who has been researching and self-treating mental illness (formerly Bipolar II) for about four years. I have to tell you an anecdote in order for you to understand my theory.
>
> Several months ago I began having a severe exacerbation of OCD, depression, tics, ADHD, compromised fluency of speech, acne, body dysmorphia (feeling like I didn't want to be in my own skin), dizziness, ataxia, psychosis and forgetfulness only to discover that the man I had been living with was a clinical psychopath and had been using the neurobehavioral toxicology research I imparted to him against me by putting large doses of iron supplements in the food he cooked me. I got out of that situation immediately, but not without having suffered a pretty big hit to my mental and physical health.
>
> I put myself to work figuring out how to eliminate the iron. Now, you should know that I have been using the Andy Cutler protocol to chelate mercury after removing my mercury dental amalgams. His protocol helped me recover drastically (that's how I managed to turn my suicidal Bipolar II into unipolar anhedonia/dysthymia), but I hit a plateau. "Maybe a lot of the symptoms I have experienced are related to iron toxicity, considering the fortification of food using non-bioavailable iron (beginning most substantially in the 1940s)." I researched, and sure enough, iron deposition in the basal ganglia is found in a lot of these disorders, including depression, Tourette's and OCD.
>
> I started researching iron chelators and learned that tetracycline antibiotics form insoluble complexes with iron, hence why you are told to take iron separately from them. Minocycline can be used after a stroke to chelate iron, which protects the brain from neuronal death from oxidative damage, inflammation.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21998050
>
> So, I purchased minocycline in order to "clean up" my brain. Of course, iron feeds pathogens, which is how iron chelating antibiotics work-- they starve them out by sequestering the iron. Ferritin is not a good indicator of iron storage considering the body quarantines iron in the organs to protect itself during chronic illness and infection, so you can even appear to be anemic with iron overload (also copper deficiency which is sometimes (paradoxically) paired with copper toxicity due to biounavailable copper can cause iron overload). The body is refusing to give the iron to feed the pathogens, or cause further inflammation by releasing it into the bloodstream, but all this iron build-up in the organs is toxic.
>
> Here is the problem, Andy Cutler PhD says that you MUST take any chelator at a very low dose on the half-life. Taking it at a low dose allows the body to eliminate the heavy metals in a way that doesn't overload your bloodstream with toxins, causing all sorts of unwanted side effects. Your body's detoxification system simply cannot keep up with a large amount of toxic metals circulating for a few hours. Taking the chelator on the half-life prevents the metals from redistributing. Think of a chelator as little hands that pick up toxins: if there aren't a constant stream of hands to hold onto the toxins, the toxins get dropped causing more damage to tissues. The more hands (i.e. chelator), the more toxins are mobilized from tissues and thus a greater toxic burden when the drug is eliminated.
>
> When I received my minocycline, I started taking very small doses (10mg every 8 hours approximately). Most of my symptoms were significantly lessened, but I ended up having a hypersensitivity reaction after a couple weeks, which is (I'm sure you know) not uncommon with minocycline, and so I had to stop taking it. I am going to order doxycycline and try again with that. At the moment I'm taking deferasirox, another iron chelator, which is working well (as evidenced by the fact that I'm writing this to begin with).
>
> Anyway, just my two cents.
>
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Script revised: February 4, 2008
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