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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mav27 on January 28, 2009, at 13:53:24
Just wondering has ECT been shown to be effective in treating things like social anxiety disorder / social phobia or even personality disorders mainly borderline personality disorder ?
Posted by bleauberry on January 28, 2009, at 18:41:34
In reply to ECT for anxiety and personality disorders, posted by mav27 on January 28, 2009, at 13:53:24
ECT is not effective for anything, except in skewed literature and in the minds of psychiatrists. Sometimes I wonder if some of them aren't more insane than we are. Relapse rates are extraordinarily high when it is effective.
Some people have done very well with ECT but require periodic returns to the zapper, sometimes weekly, sometimes monthly, sometimes quarterly. Those success stories are very hard to find though. Failures and disappointments outnumber them in the real world. Also deserving of comment is the under-rated damage to memory and cognitive function. It can be very serious, long lasting, or permanent, and often is.
Did the person have a DMSA provocation test for heavy metals? Did the person have a Western Blot from one of the two labs that test all the markers of Lyme and not just the limited markers of Lyme from the FDA tests? Were they tested for Lyme's co-infectors? Has the person's serum B vitamin status been checked? Has their methylation status been checked? Has their serum copper been tested? Has their daily cortisol curve been plotted? Has their TSH, free T3, free T4, and Hashimotos antibodies been checked, and are they all tightly within optimal range versus grossly within normal range?
If someone hasn't had a doctor thorough enough to do all these things, they have no place laying on a table to be knocked out by a barbituate and electrified straight to the brain serious enough to send the entire body into convulsions all the way down to a twitching big toe. Insane.
Sorry, my opinion of today's medical profession is obviously jaded and there is some frustration. Almost always they go for totally mysterious risky treatments where they have no idea if it will work or how it works, basically going for big guns and tanks while blindfolded when they pull the trigger, and yet never looking at the simple obvious easy logical stuff that is not mysterious and is right in front of them.
Insane.
Can you tell I am an ECT survivor? Can you tell I've seem dozens of people with serious psychiatric conditions reach symptom resolvement with proper treatment that did not involve psychiatric meds? The whole field of psychiatry is scary because they jump right straight to symptomatic treatment, which is not the same as curative treatment, without even considering what the disease is causing the symptoms. If one cannot find a disease from the list above, and dozens of combinations and permutations of meds haven't worked, then fine, try ECT if one must. Just don't put any more hope into it than any other previous treatment.
Don't get me wrong. I am a longtime psych med veteran and will probably be on one or another for life. People should continue to try to find the combinations that improve their lives. All I'm saying is ECT is not one of them. In addition to symptomatic treatment, people should test the obvious things but hardly ever do. Those can and do lead to pure remission that leaves them as they were pre-disease and without any meds.
Posted by Phillipa on January 28, 2009, at 19:37:16
In reply to ECT for anxiety and personality disorders, posted by mav27 on January 28, 2009, at 13:53:24
Mav I've heard no but unilateral is better. Are you considering it? Phillipa
Posted by mav27 on January 29, 2009, at 1:53:32
In reply to Re: ECT for anxiety and personality disorders » mav27, posted by Phillipa on January 28, 2009, at 19:37:16
> Mav I've heard no but unilateral is better. Are you considering it? Phillipa
ECT or decapitaion, i'd settle for either now.
Posted by mav27 on January 29, 2009, at 6:05:18
In reply to Re: ECT for anxiety and personality disorders, posted by bleauberry on January 28, 2009, at 18:41:34
I've been pretty much against the through of ECT myself, my doc has mentioned it a couple times but has left it totally up to me to decide if i want to look into it further. Thing is after 10 years of meds and therapy and sh*t and nothing working i'm starting to think why the hell not just try it since at this rate im close to killing myself anyway.
Posted by cmorhoun on January 29, 2009, at 8:51:02
In reply to Re: ECT for anxiety and personality disorders » bleauberry, posted by mav27 on January 29, 2009, at 6:05:18
I'm in the same boat MAV. Unfortunately ECT has been found to be largely ineffective for people with personality disorders. Additionally, when ECT if effective, it's usually a short term fix. Do a google search for ECT, Borderline Personality Disorderand you'll easily find some info.
I've been considering it regardless, since there's really nothing to loose at this point. My main hesitation is the potential memory problems. I'm self employed and can't afford to forget recent events.
For some people, it's the magic fix. Many continue to get maintenance dosages as an ongoing treatment. If you can afford some potential short term memory loss, you should give it some serious consideration. Do some research on unilateral vs bilateral. Lots of good stuff on the internet.
Posted by bleauberry on January 29, 2009, at 17:46:48
In reply to Re: ECT for anxiety and personality disorders » bleauberry, posted by mav27 on January 29, 2009, at 6:05:18
> I've been pretty much against the through of ECT myself, my doc has mentioned it a couple times but has left it totally up to me to decide if i want to look into it further. Thing is after 10 years of meds and therapy and sh*t and nothing working i'm starting to think why the hell not just try it since at this rate im close to killing myself anyway.
Well, that does remind me of one bright side to ECT, even when it fails. That is, you may forget a lot of things that you would prefer not to remember anyway. It's almost kind of like starting a new chapter, rather than continuing with the same old endless chapter.
Other options include seeing another one, two, or three doctors. Every one of them has their own unique insight and skill. One may be a lot better than another for you. It doesn't mean you have to abandon your current doc and if your relationship is good then you shouldn't. But on the side, there is nothing wrong with seeking a second and third opinion.
Other options include looking at combinations of drugs that you have not yet done. For example, maybe someone has tried Lexapro and maybe at another time they tried Risperdal+Zoloft, but did they ever try Lexapro+Risperdal? Or maybe, even if someone is not bipolar, did they ever try Depakote? Low dose lithium? Lamictal? What about Nardil and Parnate and Marplan. I mean, someone should not even think about ECT until they've tried all three of those, including adding on Abilify. In combination with any other meds, the STARD study showed that the rarely used meds Pindolol or Buspar served good purposes and should probably be used more often to kick other meds into working.
I know where you are at. I was at the same place. That's how I gave in and ECT looked like hope and a last chance.
It is important to look at major causes of depression too. If you are not responding to a whole bunch of different meds, that itself is diagnostic of something else going on other than psychiatry. Tops on the list would be Lyme. Others would be thyroid, adrenal, heavy metals. When psych meds aren't working, I think it is logical to say, "Hey, ok, I'm missing something here. I need to reconsider the diagnosis and look deeper."
Posted by garnet71 on January 29, 2009, at 20:18:02
In reply to ECT for anxiety and personality disorders, posted by mav27 on January 28, 2009, at 13:53:24
Mav27,
I am curious - this doc who mentioned ECT - is this the same one who suggested that treatment for you may not be welcome at the mental health facility?
Posted by mav27 on January 29, 2009, at 23:27:27
In reply to Re: ECT for anxiety and personality disorders, posted by bleauberry on January 29, 2009, at 17:46:48
I have had the majority of the tests you mentioned, i've tried anything over the years to find a cause that could mean not having to take AD's ect so half my blood gets drained a year in tests i ask for and so on. I havn't had any luck getting them to do a proper cortisol test though.. it seems no one in the place i live wants to do it but i'm going to keep pushing.
It's most likely just good ol' depression though, about 90% of my family from close to distant relatives all have it, unfortunatly i've been the first one to have social phobia added in which is the main thing i'm trying to fix as i can at least feel a little bit better when i'm around people depression wise but nothing has worked on the anxiety of being around people.
Posted by mav27 on January 29, 2009, at 23:30:10
In reply to Re: ECT for anxiety and personality disorders, posted by garnet71 on January 29, 2009, at 20:18:02
> Mav27,
>
> I am curious - this doc who mentioned ECT - is this the same one who suggested that treatment for you may not be welcome at the mental health facility?You've lost me sorry :) I can't remember what i've said as my memory is terrible but he hs never said i'm not welcome anywhere.. I'm the one that made it very clear to him that i'm never ever going back to the local psych hospital.. they are total screw ups there.. as is our whole state mental health system.
Posted by cmorhoun on January 30, 2009, at 13:20:01
In reply to Re: ECT for anxiety and personality disorders » garnet71, posted by mav27 on January 29, 2009, at 23:30:10
Mav,
You might try stimulants if you haven't already. They are what have kept me alive for the last couple of years. Dexadrine, Concerta, etc. Do some searches on this forum so you know what to expect but they help a lot of people.You might post your medication history (as best you can) for people here to look at...maybe some suggestions can be made from there.
Lastly, I know blueberry paints a pretty grim picture of ECT but I would still give it consideration. I certainly am. It's not as cut and dried as, it either works or it completely ruins you. I hope you do some research on it outside of this forum.
Posted by mav27 on January 30, 2009, at 14:48:49
In reply to Re: ECT for anxiety and personality disorders, posted by cmorhoun on January 30, 2009, at 13:20:01
Stimulants are out of the question here unfortunatly.
As for the other stuff i've been on, umm from memory lets see
effexor
celexa
lexapro
paxil
zoloft
prozac
duloxetine
remeron
nortripyline
imipramine
bupropion
dothiepin
moclobemide
parnate
nardil
Melleril
Stellezine
Risperdal
zyprexa
seroquel
abilify
amisulpride
luvox
doxepin
nefazedone
reboxetine
ziprasidone
valproate
xanax
valium
clonazepamThats all i can think of right now.
The MAOI's are good but could never fix the problem of not being able to remain standing up without fainting. The ssri's make me feel like an emotionless zombie. The tricylics were doing someting to my heart that upset my doc from memory. The anti-psychotics make me want to just chop my head off and the benzos have very little effect at all. The epilin has given some life to my brain but my body now feels like it doesn't want to move :(Some of those have been tried in combos/augmentations ect.
Posted by cmorhoun on January 31, 2009, at 8:19:08
In reply to Re: ECT for anxiety and personality disorders » cmorhoun, posted by mav27 on January 30, 2009, at 14:48:49
I'd be curious to know why stimulants are not an option. If addiction is a problem, you might look at Vyvanse.
Have you tried Amino Acid suppliments at all?
Have you tried some of the more natural stuff like St. John's Wort, L-tryptophan, etc?
Have you tried Tianeptine/Stablon?
How about Neurontin?
Posted by mav27 on January 31, 2009, at 11:41:44
In reply to Re: ECT for anxiety and personality disorders, posted by cmorhoun on January 31, 2009, at 8:19:08
Laws here in Australia... adults have close to zero chance of ever getting their hands on any stimulants even ritalin ect, i've been trying for 10 years even when the doctos have agreed they would benifit me.
Tianeptine isn't available here, and Neurontin is a restricted drug that is for epilepsy only.
Havn't tried the supplement things you mentioned.
> I'd be curious to know why stimulants are not an option. If addiction is a problem, you might look at Vyvanse.
>
> Have you tried Amino Acid suppliments at all?
>
> Have you tried some of the more natural stuff like St. John's Wort, L-tryptophan, etc?
>
> Have you tried Tianeptine/Stablon?
>
> How about Neurontin?
>
>
Posted by garnet71 on January 31, 2009, at 12:02:15
In reply to Re: ECT for anxiety and personality disorders » garnet71, posted by mav27 on January 29, 2009, at 23:30:10
> > Mav27,
> >
> > I am curious - this doc who mentioned ECT - is this the same one who suggested that treatment for you may not be welcome at the mental health facility?
>
> You've lost me sorry :) I can't remember what i've said as my memory is terrible but he hs never said i'm not welcome anywhere.. I'm the one that made it very clear to him that i'm never ever going back to the local psych hospital.. they are total screw ups there.. as is our whole state mental health system.----------------
Mav, sorry, I briefly had your situation mixed up with another's....
Posted by garnet71 on January 31, 2009, at 12:15:22
In reply to Re: ECT for anxiety and personality disorders » cmorhoun, posted by mav27 on January 31, 2009, at 11:41:44
"Laws here in Australia... adults have close to zero chance of ever getting their hands on any stimulants even ritalin ect, i've been trying for 10 years even when the doctos have agreed they would benifit me."
----------------------------Wow-I'm sorry to hear that, mav27. That makes me angry. There's a concept out there, explained by an element of game theory, why politicans make laws to ban useful drugs....for selfish reasons, that end up producing results that are worse for society...than allowing use of the drug.
It's difficult to conceptualize these policies, however, since people are allowed to get dangerous procedures that KILL - plastic surgery -for the sake of vanity; meanwhile, so many suffer by being denied useful, safer drugs (even drugs that tend to be unsafe if misued are less dangerous than some plastic surgery procedures allowed by law).
I mentioned on another thread how they are allowing cosmetic use of glaucoma medicine for the purpose of lengthining one's eyelashes. This would entail utility for people who have had chemotherapy, but the article I read was about people using this just to have longer eyelashes.
It's worth mentioning that alchohol kills and destroys lives--but is celebrated in society.
What other drugs are banned in Australia, that you know of?Side note about anger: I went for years never feeling/acknowledging anger - I directed it inward at myself and never knew it until recently. It's a very healthy, positive thing for me to express anger.
So I'm practicing expressing it. I hope you don't mind...Some may feel it to be negative, but really it is a positive thing. If you supress anger or channel it inward at yourself, it can be disasterous and responsible for many ills; it also can be an underlying cause behind people who are abusive to others...
Posted by mav27 on January 31, 2009, at 22:01:42
In reply to Re: ECT for anxiety and personality disorders » mav27, posted by garnet71 on January 31, 2009, at 12:15:22
Not exactly banned.. i mean they are still used in children with adhd... but once you reach 18 or so it's bye bye to those meds. It's not really accepted in australia that adult adhd exists or that stimulants are needed for any adult conditions.. the exact laws vary between each state though but are close to the same.
Other problems i've come accross is how reluctant doc's are to try out of the ordinary things... i mean i couldn't even find a pdoc that would use T3 as an augmenter.. apparently there is one in the mainland that does but i don't have the money to go up there. Dopamine agonists are another thing you'd be lucky to get... i did manage to show my doc evidence about selegiline being used as an AD and he gave me the option to try it but i never went ahead because it cost a bit of money.
Posted by cmorhoun on February 1, 2009, at 15:22:08
In reply to Re: ECT for anxiety and personality disorders » cmorhoun, posted by mav27 on January 31, 2009, at 11:41:44
Too bad about stimulants. I think there might be some other drugs with similar efficacy that arent actually stimulants. Otherwise you might try finding "other" sources for stimulants...online pharmacy's.
Tianeptine can be obtained from a few online pharmacy's. Email me if you want details.
Neurontin effects GABA, like the benzos, but in a different way, and is often very helpful with anxiety without the addiction or poop-out issues.
I would very much recommend you try some of the natural stuff. It may at least lighten the load. They may not be the best for a person with severe anxiety but they're worth a shot, and cheap.
St. John's Wort - Get a liquid form, it's more likely to be pure. St. John's Wort can easily be worthless if it's not processed right. If you get some decent stuff, you might find it very activating which can often offer relief. Conversely it may just make you anxious.
Amino Acids - Tyrosine is often taken alone, it boosts norepinephrine but I would say just get a multi with all the primary aminos. Aminos can also be very energizing, offer clarity, they can have fairly profound effects over time but they also can just end up being aggravating, increasing anxiety or anger. Take them a few times a day to avoid crashes.
L-tryptophan - converts to serotonin and some argue it will have the same effect as AD's without the side effects. Doubtful for someone with Major D but I've found it to be pretty effective for anxiety. It will definitely help with sleep if that is an issue.
Lastly, and I'm sure this will sound ludicrous but, I've found eating raw, organic spinach and broccoli very helpful for anxiety as well. Diet in general can obviously effect mood considerably but there's something about the raw Greens that seem exceptional to me. Very calming somehow.
Fell free to email if you want details on obtaining any of this stuff.
Posted by mav27 on February 2, 2009, at 8:53:57
In reply to Re: ECT for anxiety and personality disorders » mav27, posted by cmorhoun on February 1, 2009, at 15:22:08
You won't get any medications through the aussie postal system, i don't know anyone that has managed to. Most online pharmacies i've looked into mention that they won't even try and ship to Australia anymore.. i was looking into it one time when trying to buy salegiline.
This is the end of the thread.
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