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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Phillipa on August 31, 2009, at 20:47:06
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties?, posted by TenMan on August 31, 2009, at 19:44:21
Gee wish it did it to me xanax just puts me to sleep quickly. Took 3mg of lunesta for a while discontinued as didn't see any advantage. Phillipa
Posted by yxibow on August 31, 2009, at 22:58:10
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties? » TenMan, posted by Phillipa on August 31, 2009, at 20:47:06
Not saying that this is what people have experience here, or done, but I have heard of Ambien used exactly for this purpose as a "street drug". And in fairly high quantities, like 30mg.
I wouldn't do it for that, especially since there's alcohol involved, etc.
But I wouldn't be surprised for someone relatively benzodiazepine "naive" (not taken much by way of benzodiazepines) would not have cross-tolerance and would be able to have this curious phenomenon with pseudo-benzodiazepines such as Ambien.
For myself, it basically doesn't register or is even noticeable.
-- tidings
Posted by floatingbridge on August 31, 2009, at 23:42:18
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties?, posted by SLS on August 31, 2009, at 16:07:35
Hi Girlinterupted & Scott,
Scott, your posts led me to wiki to do a little reading. Lunesta has the same (well I don't know exactly) disinhibition effect credited to Ambien. Ambien made me feel very weird---and didn't put me to sleep. Lunesta, however, does, and I've noted to myself that I feel a 'lift' from it in the morning. (No such lift from sonata.) Interesting. Then again, wiki said that 3mgs of Lunesta equals the (gaba?) effect of 10mg of Valium. Yikes! I never take that much benzo.
Benzo's such as xanax give me a lift--I assumed it was the same for everyone. Interesting.
And a question to anyone--what about over the counter gaba supplements? Which form is best? But that's a question for Alt, no?
Hope you are feeling some relief Girlinterupted. And thanks again for the info Scott,
fb
Posted by SLS on September 1, 2009, at 6:32:05
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties? » SLS, posted by floatingbridge on August 31, 2009, at 23:42:18
Hi.
> Benzo's such as xanax give me a lift--I assumed it was the same for everyone. Interesting.
I would just add that Xanax (alprazolam) has a genuine antidepressant effect for some people. It turns out that a sister drug (another triazolobenzadiazepine) named Deracyn (adinazolam) has been used for depression for quite a few years in Japan. It also has anxiolytic properties, but feels totally transparent. It is absolutely the cleanest drug I ever tried with regard to side-effects. Unfortunately, I did not respond to it.
- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on September 1, 2009, at 11:28:00
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties? » floatingbridge, posted by SLS on September 1, 2009, at 6:32:05
Scott, that is unfortunate. Do you know why you are a non-responder--to that and others? That must be very frustrating--not to mention disappointing.
I'm wondering if drug you mention has same addictive/tolerance issues as xanax....
off to google more,
fb
Posted by SLS on September 1, 2009, at 11:35:36
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties? » SLS, posted by floatingbridge on September 1, 2009, at 11:28:00
> I'm wondering if drug you mention has same addictive/tolerance issues as xanax....
Interesting question. You know, I never even thought of that.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 1, 2009, at 14:47:06
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties? » floatingbridge, posted by SLS on September 1, 2009, at 11:35:36
Behavioral Disinhibition:
A = GABA - Modulates B
B = NE - Inhibit Impulsive Behavior
C = DA - Impulsive BehaviorA inhibits B
B inhibits CAdd benzodiazepine -> Increase A -> Decrease B -> Increase Impulsive Behavior
******************************************************************
Paradoxical Reactions <Disinhibition> to Benzodiazepines: Literature Review and Treatment OptionsCarissa E. Mancuso, Pharm.D.; Maria G. Tanzi, Pharm.D.; Michael Gabay, Pharm.D.
Published: 09/30/2004
AbstractBenzodiazepines frequently are administered to patients to induce sedation. Paradoxical reactions to benzodiazepines, characterized by increased talkativeness, emotional release, excitement, and excessive movement, are relatively uncommon and occur in less than 1% of patients. The exact mechanism of paradoxical reactions remains unclear. Most cases are idiosyncratic; however, some evidence suggests that these reactions may occur secondary to a genetic link, history of alcohol abuse, or psychological disturbances. This review evaluates the numerous cases of paradoxical reactions to benzodiazepines in adult and pediatric patients that have been reported in the biomedical literature. It also explores the advantages and disadvantages of the various available treatment options.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/489358
******************************************************************
Benzodiazepines and disinhibition: a review
Carol Paton, Chief Pharmacist
In the majority of recipients, benzodiazepines have a calming effect but in a minority they can cause paradoxical reactions (also called disinhibitory reactions) characterised by acute excitement and an altered mental state: increased anxiety, vivid dreams, hyperactivity, sexual disinhibition, hostility and rage. Other sedatives that bind at the GABAA receptor, such as alcohol, are robustly linked with aggressive behaviour. Acute alcohol consumption is known to increase feelings of hostility and competitive and retaliatory behaviour, and epidemiological data show that alcohol is involved in over 50% of acts of violence (Miczek et al, 1997).
http://pb.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/26/12/460
******************************************************************- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on September 1, 2009, at 14:58:44
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties?, posted by SLS on September 1, 2009, at 14:47:06
Thanks, this is great. I'm still meditating upon the abc part.
This might explain Phillipa's unusual reaction to benzo's, maybe? Phillipa, what do you think?
fb
this disinhibiting is a bit different than what I call a 'lift' from xanax. It sounds like it's more attentive to Girlinterupted's initial question....
Posted by linkadge on September 1, 2009, at 15:02:34
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties?, posted by SLS on September 1, 2009, at 14:47:06
People are refering to xanax which as SLS noted has documented antidepressant effects.
The antidepressants effects of xanax are independant of behavioral disinhibition since behavioral disinhibition is present with other benzodiazapines which do not share the same antidepressant properties.
That is why I am arguing that there may be something special about (es)zopiclone which makes it have an effect on depression.
BTW clonazepam made my depression worse.
Linkadge
Posted by floatingbridge on September 1, 2009, at 15:23:38
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties?, posted by linkadge on September 1, 2009, at 15:02:34
Link, yes, I think I was agreeing with you in advance--in my non-scientific way : ) Though I do wonder about Lunesta....
Re: klonopin. At one point it made my depression worse--so I tried librium which gave me some sort of RLS. Now that I'm on a stimulant, I can take Klonipin w/o depressive effects.
fb
Posted by TenMan on September 1, 2009, at 16:09:36
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties? » linkadge, posted by floatingbridge on September 1, 2009, at 15:23:38
The thing is...other benzos have never made me feel disinhibited. I've tried almost all the main prescribed benzos and all I've gotten from them is a depressed mood and sleepiness. There is something about Xanax and Ambien that definitely mimics the effects alcohol has on me. That is, I become much more open and talkative on both whereas the others just make me sedated.
Posted by SLS on September 1, 2009, at 16:56:28
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties?, posted by TenMan on September 1, 2009, at 16:09:36
> The thing is...other benzos have never made me feel disinhibited. I've tried almost all the main prescribed benzos and all I've gotten from them is a depressed mood and sleepiness. There is something about Xanax and Ambien that definitely mimics the effects alcohol has on me. That is, I become much more open and talkative on both whereas the others just make me sedated.
That's very interesting. I read where someone actually became hypomanic on Xanax, but not on Valium. There may be a NE release thing going on there.
Disinhibition does not look the same in everyone. Some people display hostility and rage, while others show jovial talkativeness and a release of social inhibitions.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 1, 2009, at 17:00:18
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties? » TenMan, posted by SLS on September 1, 2009, at 16:56:28
I bet Ambien (zolpidem) will eventually be compared to Halcion (triazolam) for the amnesia and disinhibition both drugs can produce.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 1, 2009, at 17:06:15
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties?, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2009, at 10:04:22
> Disinhibition doesn't explain it because for me the effect is specific to this one sedative (I havn't tried lunesta). Other sedatives make me feel more depressed. I also don't act disinhibited (I don't talk more and there is no subjective impairment in judgment). With alcohol there is some disinibition but I would not say I feel less depressed.
> That is why I am arguing that there may be something special about (es)zopiclone which makes it have an effect on depression.
You confuse me. Which drug gives you an antidepressant effect - zolpidem or zopiclone?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 1, 2009, at 19:32:19
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties?, posted by SLS on September 1, 2009, at 17:00:18
> I bet Ambien (zolpidem) will eventually be compared to Halcion (triazolam) for the amnesia and disinhibition both drugs can produce.
Interesting.
------------------------------------------
Posted by Flavio Guzmán on 12/06/08Categorized as Benzodiazepines and Z-drugs, Neurology
Zolpidem, zoplicone and zaleplon (z-drugs) side effects profile:
"Although the media have been impressed with the outlandish adverse events reported with zolpidem, these events are not unprecedented. Amnesia, hallucinations and bizarre behaviour were also seen frequently in patients taking the short-acting benzodiazepine, triazolam, for insomnia,
If patients are prescribed z-drugs they should be made aware that sedation, confusion and disinhibition may occur. They should be advised to avoid alcohol, and the hypnotic should always be taken once the patient is in bed, not on the way to bed.
Evidence that z-drugs, especially zolpidem, commonly cause adverse effects, not predictable from their pharmacology, is weak. Zolpidem may cause hallucinations relatively frequently (as triazolam did), but reports of abnormal behaviour with amnesia probably reflect predictable effects."
-------------------------------------------
I do not agree with the author's conclusion that there is no place for these hypnotic drugs, but his descriptions of what has been observed with them is accurate.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on September 1, 2009, at 20:45:24
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties?, posted by SLS on September 1, 2009, at 19:32:19
Benzos and lunesta just put me to sleep. Now in earlier days before lunesta beer and valium worked well for me or xanax which ever. Never got high just slept and next day felt great.Same with ativan. Now klonopin caused immediate suicidal thoughts and wasn't suicidal taken immediately off and xanax and fine only .5 xanax also. Phillipa
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 2, 2009, at 22:37:57
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties?, posted by SLS on September 1, 2009, at 19:32:19
Yeah, dishinibition was the "worst" symptom I had on Ambien. I say worst not because it's a bad thing, but because I'm not normally like that, and it caused me some trouble once I was back to reality.
I always took Ambien ~15 minutes before going to bed, somehow thinking "by the time I go to bed, it'll be working in full."
What ended up happening is that it kicked in immediately, I felt great, and I started doing lots of dumb things online. Commenting on things on facebook that I would not normally comment on, adding "friends" that I would not normally add, being overly friendly...just a lot of stuff that only very outgoing people do all the time.
The next morning I was shocked and I had to go back and delete everything the minute I woke up. And I felt really stupid about it.
Although I have to say, if I could trade my current personality and be uninhibited all the time, I'd do it in a heartbeat. It just beats being socially withdrawn.
Posted by floatingbridge on September 3, 2009, at 1:52:27
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties?, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 2, 2009, at 22:37:57
Hi GI, That's too funny!
Umm, I've done that too, on Lunesta and sonata. Once wrote one off-the-cuff e-mail that I forgot sending until I received the reply. It was to a publisher who had rejected my work--My e-mail wasn't nasty--but it was so un-me. I signed it, "hope you are enjoying your life!" He was kind enough to reply in a sporting fashion--which increased his esteem in my eyes. But when I reread what I had written, I was shocked. My husband laughed! He also told me that there is the known phenomenon of the after 1:00 a.m e-mail--and one can set their computer to deliver mails etc. after you give it the command in the morning.
No more for me--pill in mouth, body in bed!
fb
BTW, GI, how are you doing?
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 3, 2009, at 4:13:38
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties? » Girlnterrupted78, posted by floatingbridge on September 3, 2009, at 1:52:27
Hi floatingbridge,
Yes, I learned the lesson too. But it feels so good when Ambien starts working, that it's hard to stop yourself at that point. Similar to having some drinks and feeling great and not wanting to stop whatever you're doing.
I'm doing well, I guess. Still waiting for Parnate to work. Thanks for asking :-)
>
> No more for me--pill in mouth, body in bed!
>
> fb
>
> BTW, GI, how are you doing?
Posted by SLS on September 3, 2009, at 5:36:09
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties?, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 2, 2009, at 22:37:57
> Although I have to say, if I could trade my current personality and be uninhibited all the time, I'd do it in a heartbeat. It just beats being socially withdrawn.
I'm sorry if you have already gone over this, but have you tried Nardil? Sometimes, the inhibition is part of the depression and remits when the depression remits. I am much more inhibited when depressed than when euthymic. Nardil tends to be prosocial - more so than Parnate.
Do you have a lack of things to talk about when you are in social situations. Is that part of the discomfort?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on September 3, 2009, at 5:41:21
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties? » floatingbridge, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 3, 2009, at 4:13:38
> I'm doing well, I guess. Still waiting for Parnate to work. Thanks for asking :-)
I didn't want to give the impression that Parnate is not at all prosocial. Like I said, often times when the depression remits, so does the social inhibition/anxiety. Parnate treats me better than Nardil did. I am not a social dynamo, but that's really not me, anyway.
- Scott
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 3, 2009, at 7:17:11
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties? » Girlnterrupted78, posted by SLS on September 3, 2009, at 5:36:09
> I'm sorry if you have already gone over this, but have you tried Nardil? Sometimes, the inhibition is part of the depression and remits when the depression remits.
Yes, I was on Nardil for a whole year. It didn't work for me at all. I went up to 90mgs, but that was too high and gave me occipital headaches, so I ended up at 60mgs. I think Nardil actually even worsened my depression and made me slow-thinking and unable to recall words. It also made me gain 20+ lbs. My doctor at the time (a really bad one) refused to augment it, so I don't know if that would have made a difference.
> Nardil tends to be prosocial - more so than Parnate.
That's what I've heard. I had high hopes for it. That's why I stayed on it 1 year even if it was not helping. I don't know why it didn't work for me. The only drug that has made me very social was Celexa, but it stopped working after 1 year. That was probably the best year of my life. I was able to feel very comfortable and even excited and talkative in most social situations, with the exception of public speaking.
> Do you have a lack of things to talk about when you are in social situations. Is that part of the discomfort?
Yeah, that's part of it. I feel tense and uncomfortable and unhappy. Obviously, after years with this problem I just lost interest in most social interactions, so I only ever socialize with people who don't trigger these feelings of discomfort. Some people make me feel very comfortable, but the majority either makes me anxious, bore me, or irritate me.
Posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 3, 2009, at 7:23:28
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties? » Girlnterrupted78, posted by SLS on September 3, 2009, at 5:41:21
> Parnate treats me better than Nardil did. I am not a social dynamo, but that's really not me, anyway.
What was your experience with Nardil? Did you also augment it and try different combos, like you've done with Parnate?
I wasn't a social dynamo either, until Celexa turned me into one. It fixed something really major in me, no idea what it was, but sort of "turned on" a social ease that had been "turned off" my whole life.
Growing up, people usually called me "quiet" and "serious." But when on Celexa, they called me "charismatic". That was quite a change.
Posted by SLS on September 3, 2009, at 7:35:53
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties? » SLS, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 3, 2009, at 7:23:28
> > Parnate treats me better than Nardil did. I am not a social dynamo, but that's really not me, anyway.
> What was your experience with Nardil? Did you also augment it and try different combos, like you've done with Parnate?Yes. I augmented it with nortriptyline, Lamictal, and Abilify. I was feeling okay for about a year - not great. Then, I started to get diminishing returns, and decided to go with Parnate.
> I wasn't a social dynamo either, until Celexa turned me into one. It fixed something really major in me, no idea what it was, but sort of "turned on" a social ease that had been "turned off" my whole life.
I'm glad you had the opportunity to experience what remission feels like. If Parnate works for you, I suspect that you will experience the same positive social feelings, even if they don't quite equal those of Celexa.
> Growing up, people usually called me "quiet" and "serious." But when on Celexa, they called me "charismatic". That was quite a change.Tell me about it. Exact same story with me.
I really, really hope that Parnate gives you the life you deserve.
- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on September 3, 2009, at 10:14:33
In reply to Re: Does Ambien have antidepressant properties? » SLS, posted by Girlnterrupted78 on September 3, 2009, at 7:23:28
"turned on" a social ease that had been "turned off" my whole life.
>
> Growing up, people usually called me "quiet" and "serious." But when on Celexa, they called me "charismatic". That was quite a change.
>Wow, GI, I never experienced that on celexa--or any ssri, snri.
This is the end of the thread.
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