![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by BobS. on December 7, 2011, at 11:54:47
In reply to Re: Zyprexa withdrawal » HopelessAgony, posted by Phillipa on December 7, 2011, at 9:48:49
Hello,
I read your post with great sympathy. I have been trying to withdrawal from Zyprexa for 4 years. I have failed every time. My thoughts about it have ranged from just stayin on it and let the diabetes that it will eventhly cause to suicide. So I am with you and ask anyone for help with this intractble problem. Consider taking Lyrica(pregabalin) it works wonders as an anxiolytic.
Best wishes
BobS.
Posted by Christ_empowered on December 7, 2011, at 12:37:50
In reply to Re: Zyprexa withdrawal » Phillipa, posted by BobS. on December 7, 2011, at 11:54:47
Maybe you could switch to a less potent antipsychotic and then do a veeeeery gradual taper? Seroquel is good for anxiety and isn't as bad as zyprexa in terms of obesity and diabetes. Its also very low-potency, so maybe a switch would let you slowly taper off the seroquel and give your brain more time to adjust to being off antipsychotics.
That's all I can come up with. Benzos, taken as needed, might help.
Posted by BobS. on December 7, 2011, at 13:24:03
In reply to Re: Zyprexa withdrawal, posted by Christ_empowered on December 7, 2011, at 12:37:50
Thanks for the suggestion
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 7, 2011, at 14:00:33
In reply to Zyprexa withdrawal, posted by HopelessAgony on December 7, 2011, at 2:12:04
First of all, I'm really sorry for all that you've been through. I cannot even imagine how hard it must be for you right now. I hope you don't mind if I ask a few questions.
>I was treated for possible Lyme disease with antibiotics for some time it never really made a dramatic difference in my symptoms.
Did you ever have any positive blood tests suggesting Lyme disease or did the doctors just give antibiotics based on the possibility that you might have it? Unfortunately, serological blood tests for Lyme disease are not always accurate. Have you received any blood tests for Lyme disease more recently?
>At some point along the line I ended up on 200 mg Seroquel.
Was Seroquel prescribed for anxiety and insomnia? It sounds like you were doing quite well on Seroquel. Is that right? If so, why was Seroquel stopped and Zyprexa started?
>By mid 2009 I could feel things deteriorating again. My sleep worsened, and I found it more and more difficult to maintain a normal sleep schedule.
Did you always have these sleep problems on Zyprexa, or only several months down the line?
>I chronically suffer from devastating neurological symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, the aforementioned agoraphobia, painful fasciculations and muscle spasms, and fatigue.
Do you suffer from these symptoms even if you take the full 2.5mg dose?
>The neurologist basically referred me to another neurologist at another major local hospital to have MRIs.....
I really think you do need further testing. Although you have had serious problems with withdrawal symptoms, your illness pre-dates the medication and was never diagnosed in the first place. If agoraphobia is a problem, you can take isolated doses of a benzodiazepine for anxiety without causing dependence.
>Something like Remeron or Trazodone, something with a similar receptor action profile as Zyprexa, that I might use to make things easier.
If you do decide to try Remeron, I would suggest a very low dose initially. You could also consider a very low dose of Seroquel, eg. 25-50mg and then taper.
Posted by huxley on December 7, 2011, at 22:00:53
In reply to Zyprexa withdrawal, posted by HopelessAgony on December 7, 2011, at 2:12:04
I got off Zyprexa 3 months ago. It took me two years to wean from 1.25mg to 0.
Even going that slowly I suffered horrible reactions like you have described.I still belieev I am suffering serious ongoing negative effects from it. I also quit Lactimal and a stimulant.
Posted by HopelessAgony on December 9, 2011, at 2:22:19
In reply to Re: Zyprexa withdrawal » HopelessAgony, posted by ed_uk2010 on December 7, 2011, at 14:00:33
> First of all, I'm really sorry for all that you've been through. I cannot even imagine how hard it must be for you right now. I hope you don't mind if I ask a few questions.
Thanks for the reply, I'll do my best to answer them.
> >I was treated for possible Lyme disease with antibiotics for some time it never really made a dramatic difference in my symptoms.
>
> Did you ever have any positive blood tests suggesting Lyme disease or did the doctors just give antibiotics based on the possibility that you might have it? Unfortunately, serological blood tests for Lyme disease are not always accurate. Have you received any blood tests for Lyme disease more recently?I'm familiar with the problems of accurately diagnosing Lyme, and the "chronic Lyme" controversy. I did have one positive Western blot back in 2006 or 2007, I can't recall exactly, with several "bands" reactive. I saw a physician who specialized in people who didn't meet the CDC diagnostic criteria and treated long term, and was on antibiotics for about a year. I never really had dramatic improvement in my symptoms. I just recently had another set of testing done and I was completely non-reactive, and I feel worse now than pretty much any time in the past several years, so I sort of feel that it's unlikely to be Lyme at this point. And my current symptoms don't have the "feel" of my original symptoms. The current symptoms "feel" like medication withdrawal, not Lyme.
>
> >At some point along the line I ended up on 200 mg Seroquel.
>
> Was Seroquel prescribed for anxiety and insomnia? It sounds like you were doing quite well on Seroquel. Is that right? If so, why was Seroquel stopped and Zyprexa started?It's sort of complicated. The whole reason I even ended up on antipsychotics in the first place was a misdiagnosis of acute benzodiazepine withdrawal. I was prescribed a certain class of antibiotic to try in treating the "Lyme", but unfortunately it somehow interfered with the metabolism of the large doses of benzodiazepines I was taking at the time, and sent me into acute withdrawal. I didn't know what was happening with the sudden symptoms I developed, and neither did the hospital, so Seroquel was one of the things I ended up on in their attempt to calm me down. Eventually we figured out that it was probably the antibiotic that triggered the symptoms, but by that point I had been on Serqouel a while, and it was decided to not rock the boat and continue on it. I think we switched to the Zyprexa at some point because I was experiencing a lot of orthostatic hypotension on the Seroquel. If I had known how difficult it would be to stop taking the drug I sure wouldn't have made such a switch!
>
> >By mid 2009 I could feel things deteriorating again. My sleep worsened, and I found it more and more difficult to maintain a normal sleep schedule.
>
> Did you always have these sleep problems on Zyprexa, or only several months down the line?
>It took some time to develop. I think I started the Zyprexa in June of 2009, and the sleep disturbances had manifested by around September.
> >I chronically suffer from devastating neurological symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, the aforementioned agoraphobia, painful fasciculations and muscle spasms, and fatigue.
>
> Do you suffer from these symptoms even if you take the full 2.5mg dose?
>It has been some time since I've been on a full 2.5 dose. The problem I've encountered is that after every "failed" attempt at tapering the medication, the withdrawal symptoms become more pronounced and are _not_ corrected by returning to the original full dose. I think there is some kind of tolerance issue going on similar to benzodiazepines where updosing often doesn't succeed in returning symptoms to baseline. That being said, things were much more manageable on a day to day basis when I was on the full 2.5 dose. The more horrible symptoms didn't manifest until I started attempting to significantly reduce from that. I don't really get relief from taking a single 2.5 dose, as it would take time to build up in my system, and I'm not willing to erase what progress I've made to experiment along those lines.
> >The neurologist basically referred me to another neurologist at another major local hospital to have MRIs.....
>
> I really think you do need further testing. Although you have had serious problems with withdrawal symptoms, your illness pre-dates the medication and was never diagnosed in the first place. If agoraphobia is a problem, you can take isolated doses of a benzodiazepine for anxiety without causing dependence.
>I have done that on occasion to make it to doctors appointments, though I am still very sensitive to benzodiazepines. I actually get "mini-withdrawals" from taking a single dose of Ambien, for example. It bothers me that my original illness was never diagnosed, but I think it's unlikely at this point that anything conclusive will ever be discovered.
> >Something like Remeron or Trazodone, something with a similar receptor action profile as Zyprexa, that I might use to make things easier.
>
> If you do decide to try Remeron, I would suggest a very low dose initially. You could also consider a very low dose of Seroquel, eg. 25-50mg and then taper.
>
>Thanks for the suggestion, I will consider that.
>
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 9, 2011, at 7:27:26
In reply to Re: Zyprexa withdrawal, posted by HopelessAgony on December 9, 2011, at 2:22:19
>I am still very sensitive to benzodiazepines. I actually get "mini-withdrawals" from taking a single dose of Ambien, for example.
Ambien seems to cause a lot of peculiar psychiatric reactions. If you need some sedation for an MRI or other procedure, I would avoid Ambien.
>If you do decide to try Remeron, I would suggest a very low dose initially. You could also consider a very low dose of Seroquel, eg. 25-50mg and then taper.
>Thanks for the suggestion, I will consider that.Your sleep might be more normalised on Seroquel, since it has a shorter duration of action and a low dose would produce more effect at night than during the day. Perhaps a small dose of Seroquel would allow you to reduce the Zyprexa more quickly with fewer withdrawal symptoms? I don't think you would have a problems with orthostatic hypotension at very low Seroquel doses.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 10, 2011, at 21:12:31
In reply to Zyprexa withdrawal, posted by HopelessAgony on December 7, 2011, at 2:12:04
> I will try to keep this post as brief as I can, but unfortunately to establish my situation in the detail required for anyone to make any kind of informed comment it will need to be significantly longer than most messages I have seen on this site. Thank you in advance, if you decide to make an attempt to get through it.
>
> I have suffered from a variety of disabling neurological symptoms for going on six years, beginning in approximately February of 2006. Around that time I suffered from some type of flu-like illness, but of a much more severe type than anything I had experienced before. During the illness I began suffering from intense headaches/neurological pain, panic attacks, vertigo, muscle spasms and twitching, and derealization/depersonalization, all of which persisted to some degree after the febrile portion of the illness was gone. The chronic vertigo/dizziness was the most persistent and devastating symptom, and I lost my job because of it. No conclusive diagnosis or cause of the symptoms I suffered was ever found, and though I was treated for possible Lyme disease with antibiotics for some time it never really made a dramatic difference in my symptoms. I was also prescribed benzodiazepines and Lexapro, which didn't really help my symptoms much either, but did lead to my becoming physically dependent on the benzodiazepines.
>
> I will now move the story forward to late 2007. After a terrible acute withdrawal episode from the benzodiazepine I was taking (running out of Ativan, no way to get prescription refilled) I decided that it would be best to attempt to withdraw completely from the medication. I switched over to Valium and tapered off the medication over a period of many months. At some point along the line I ended up on 200 mg Seroquel. It was difficult, but I managed to complete the benzo taper by the end of 2008. I also spent some time doing vestibular rehabilitation therapy, and the combination of the two actions did pay off by early 2009 I was virtually free of vertigo, panic attacks, and derealization. It was the best I had felt in a long time. I wasn't 100%, yet, however, so the psychiatric nurse practitioner I was seeing at the time suggested I try a bit of a non-addictive antipsychotic called Zyprexa in lieu of the Seroquel. I started on 2.5 mg. This was a big mistake.
>
> By mid 2009 I could feel things deteriorating again. My sleep worsened, and I found it more and more difficult to maintain a normal sleep schedule. I found myself not able to fall asleep until later and later, until I wasn't falling asleep until 8 or 9 o clock in the morning, and was waking up at 5 in the evening. All my attempts to maintain a normal sleep schedule failed - my body was determined to only sleep during the day. I gained fifteeen pounds. I started getting painful cystic acne all over my forehead, back, and chest. I started feeling derealization again.
>
> In late 2009 I decided to try to ditch the Zyprexa. I figured it was such a small dose I could just do it cold turkey it certainly couldn't be worse than what I went through when I finally jumped off the benzos. Of course, I was terribly wrong. The first night off, I didn't sleep very much. The next day, the horrible pressure in my head started. By the end of the next day, I had a fever of 101, and my anxiety was through the roof. My muscles had started to stiffen up, and mucus was pouring out of my nose. I went back on the pill, and these symptoms quickly resolved.
>
> To shorten the story somewhat, I failed two attempts at tapering the drug in the period from late 2009 to mid 2010. One of these attempts landed me in the hospital. Of course, they could do nothing for me. As a consequence of that attempt, I also now suffer from chronic agoraphobia and am more limited in the distance I can go from my home to seek help.
>
> In December of 2010 I began my third taper attempt, which I have come to refer to as The Long Defeat. It involves a milligram scale, a mortar and pestle, and carefully grinding the tablet into a fine powder which I then measure out. I've been aiming for a tapering rate of approximately 3-5% a month, and have in general met that goal. I am currently taking less than half a 2.5 mg pill, which is uncharted territory for me as I have never been on such a small dose since beginning the medication.
>
> However, the taper has been extremely difficult. I chronically suffer from devastating neurological symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, the aforementioned agoraphobia, painful fasciculations and muscle spasms, and fatigue. I often get some kind of spasms in my legs and feet that causes the muscles to shake and twitch violently and uncontrollably, like some kind of dystonia. Electric shock sensations in my head and ears. I constantly feel like my nervous system is in overdrive and hyperactive, and good days are few and far between. I have severe derealization constantly. I am unable to work or go to school.
>
> As bad as this sounds, sometimes things get much, much worse. On occasion I experience a kind of neurological pain that's so terrible I don't even know if there is a word to describe it. I haven't been able to find anything in any medical literature online that describes this particular symptom. It doesn't exactly feel like pain in the traditional sense of the word it is like an unberable tearing, twisting sensation in the brain that is unrelenting and remorseless, like your mind is being torn apart from the inside out. Akathisia is the only word that comes anywhere near describing what the symptom feels like, but it doesn't exactly match. I don't have any urge to move my body. Just a terrible internal sensation. This sensation will go on, at varying levels of intensity, for day after day or a week until it finally dies down. If it didn't die down eventually, suicide would be the only option.
>
> Over the past summer I had one of these episodes that was extremely persistent, and after a time I found myself experiencing the same kind of symptoms I experienced when I tried to cold turkey off benzodiazepines. I spent all of July and August in what for all intents and purposes felt like acute benzodiazepine withdrawal. But I haven't taken any benzos in over two years.
>
> I have not been in contact with the nurse practitioner who prescribed the Zyprexa, since I was dropped as a patient after I developed agoraphobia. I have managed to see both a psychiatrist and a neurologist at some point in the past year, and have had bloodwork done. There were no problems except an elevated cholesterol level. The neurologist basically referred me to another neurologist at another major local hospital to have MRIs and CT scans done because of the agoraphobia this has so far been impossible. Meetings with the psychiatrist were also not fruitful. He stated that anyone should be able to quit Zyprexa cold turkey if they want to with no problems, and that my symptoms were just due to an anxiety disorder. I asked how an anxiety disorder could cause shaking muscle spasms in my legs. Eventually he said I don't know what your real problem is exactly, but I bet you're going to suffer for a really long time! All other psychiatrists in my local area are either fully booked, or do not accept Medicare.
>
> I have very little support from my family in this endeavor, and I have not had any friends or social life in many years. The only thing that keeps me going through every long night after night of intense suffering is the hope that if I can somehow complete the medication taper I will have a chance at recovery. I feel certain that the medications I have taken over the years have left me with some form of brain damage, and this taper is my final gamble in hopes of having better days in the distant future. Sometimes, though, like these past few days, lying in bed with nothing but the pain I feel I might try anything to make it stop. Something like Remeron or Trazodone, something with a similar receptor action profile as Zyprexa, that I might use to make things easier. Then taper off the secondary medication. But I'm terrified of just compounding the damage.
>
> If you made it this far, thank you. Any advice or suggestions would be welcome.H_A,
You wrote the above. I think that I can help you.
First, Zyprexa is a type of benzodiazepine. So taking Zyprexa with your background as going through withdrawal from a BZD, clarifies some things to me here. The question is what to do for now so that you do not kill yourself as you mentioned as could be a possibility.
By knowing what is happening, I think you have a better chance to come out of the place that you find yourself in now. First, the drugs you are taking are chemicals. They have the property that they are psychoactive. This has been known for thousands of years where people took plants and such into their systems and the chemical in the plant altered the mind. Now chemists synthesize the chemicals and combine them and such to produce synthetic mind-altering drugs. I have studied the chemicals in the drugs and whatyou have taken could produce the situation that you are in as per the symptoms described by you. So do you look for another drug? Well, the Zyprexaa has a benzodiazepine in its chemical make-up and you see what is happening. So if you took another drug, and it had a chemical constintuant that is in one of the drugs you used to take, could that help you? Or would it actually exacerbate your situation? How could you know?
This situation of seeking another drug could lead you into drug addiction and/or death. You see, the combination of these psycoactive chemicals, and the taking of one drug after another has its own consequences, as you think could cause brain damage. You mantioned a provider of the drug to you that said to you that Zyprexa is not addictive. Did the provider know the chemical structure of zyprexa as being a type of benzodiazepine?
I have a great knowledge of how the chemicals have done this to you and that I think could help you here, but there are prohibitions to me from Mr Hsiung that prohibit me from posting information that I think could give you knowledge to be lifted up out of the place that you are in.
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on December 10, 2011, at 21:39:57
In reply to Lou's response-kmunteavdhth » HopelessAgony, posted by Lou Pilder on December 10, 2011, at 21:12:31
Lou zyprexa is not a benzo it is an atypical antipsycotic. Phillipa
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 11, 2011, at 8:46:06
In reply to Re: Lou's response-kmunteavdhth » Lou Pilder, posted by Phillipa on December 10, 2011, at 21:39:57
> Lou zyprexa is not a benzo it is an atypical antipsycotic. Phillipa
Olanzapine (Zyprexa) is indeed an atypical antipsychotic.
Confusion arises because of the chemical structure of the drug. Chemically, olanzapine is classed as a thieno-benzodiazepine. This is because the structure of the olanzapine molecule resembles the benzodiazepines such as diazepam.
Importantly, olanzapine is not clinically similar to the benzodiazepines, it's chemical structure is sufficiently different so that it does not bind to the same receptors in the brain. If you look at structure alone, you would be misled. For example, Narcan has a similar structure to the strong opiates but has exactly the opposite effect.
I therefore do not think it is relevant in this situation to note the structural similarity between olazapine and benzos. Clinically, they are very different drugs.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2011, at 11:10:49
In reply to Re: Lou's response-kmunteavdhth » Lou Pilder, posted by Phillipa on December 10, 2011, at 21:39:57
> Lou zyprexa is not a benzo it is an atypical antipsycotic. Phillipa
Phillipa,
You wrote thw above.
Zyprexa is a compound in a class called {thieno}benzodiazepines. A thienobenzodiazepine is made up of
A. a benzo ring
B. a diazepine ring
C. a thiophene ring
The overiding issue here is the member given zyprexa when he/she had completed a wiithdrawal from a benzodiazepine. There is a body of research to show that taking zyprexa can aggravate withdrawal symptoms and lower seizure threshold and worsen withdrawal effects to people withdrawaling from benzodiazepines. There is research to indicate that zyprexa is advised to be avoided even after 2 years from the withdrawal from a benzodiazepine.
The symptoms that are described by the member here are some of those in the liturature that could be the reimurgence of benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome. And there aree cases of death as a result of taking zyprexa with a benzodiazepine as the two are CNS depressants and respiratory depressants.
You see, the chemiclas in zyprexa are the same as in a benzodiazepine but with more chemicals added to the compond called Olanzepine. The science of addiction is explained by scientists, but I have additional knowledge as to what causes addiction and how to overcome addiction. I am prohibited here by Mr. Hsiung to post a lot concerning that, which keeps me from posting support from my perspective as a lot of that support would come from a Jewish perspective as revealed to me which Mr Hsiung has posted to me a prohibiton concerning such to post here.
You see, as to if zyprexa is or is not a BZD, the chemical structure of both have a benzo ring and a diazepine ring. Zyprexa has an additional ring, but containes the same two as a benzodiazepine. Now Chuck Berry and Mick Jagger have different songs, but they both contain the same ingrediants in the music and it's still rock-an-roll to me.
Lou
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 11, 2011, at 12:55:04
In reply to Lou's reply-psytlrknro » Phillipa, posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2011, at 11:10:49
>Now Chuck Berry and Mick Jagger have different songs, but they both contain the same ingrediants in the music and it's still rock-an-roll to me.
That's nice, but you're missing the point :)
Olanzapine has very little affinity for benzodiazepine receptors in the brain - the affinity is well over 1000 times less than the affinity which it has for the receptors involved with its mechanism of actions eg. D2, 5-HT2 etc. This means that the binding of olanzapine to benzodiazepine receptors at therapeutic doses is negligible. *Clinically*, olanzapine is NOT a benzodiazepine.
Withdrawal of olanzapine can certainly produce very unpleasant symptoms. The point is that it is not benzo withdrawal, it is different.
Posted by JohnLA on December 11, 2011, at 15:29:55
In reply to Lou's reply-psytlrknro » Phillipa, posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2011, at 11:10:49
Now Chuck Berry and Mick Jagger have different songs, but they both contain the same ingrediants in the music and it's still rock-an-roll to me.
Lougod bless you lou; i mean this with all sincerity; you seem to consistently bring a smile to my face with your words of wisdom.
thanks.
john
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2011, at 18:46:59
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-psytlrknro, posted by JohnLA on December 11, 2011, at 15:29:55
> Now Chuck Berry and Mick Jagger have different songs, but they both contain the same ingrediants in the music and it's still rock-an-roll to me.
> Lou
>
> god bless you lou; i mean this with all sincerity; you seem to consistently bring a smile to my face with your words of wisdom.
>
> thanks.
>
> johnJohnLA,
You know this is coming...
Lou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZoclbefgak
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-eiz3oiloM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE222wH5eRk
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2011, at 21:05:23
In reply to Lou's reply-psytlrknro » Phillipa, posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2011, at 11:10:49
> > Lou zyprexa is not a benzo it is an atypical antipsycotic. Phillipa
>
> Phillipa,
> You wrote thw above.
> Zyprexa is a compound in a class called {thieno}benzodiazepines. A thienobenzodiazepine is made up of
> A. a benzo ring
> B. a diazepine ring
> C. a thiophene ring
> The overiding issue here is the member given zyprexa when he/she had completed a wiithdrawal from a benzodiazepine. There is a body of research to show that taking zyprexa can aggravate withdrawal symptoms and lower seizure threshold and worsen withdrawal effects to people withdrawaling from benzodiazepines. There is research to indicate that zyprexa is advised to be avoided even after 2 years from the withdrawal from a benzodiazepine.
> The symptoms that are described by the member here are some of those in the liturature that could be the reimurgence of benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome. And there aree cases of death as a result of taking zyprexa with a benzodiazepine as the two are CNS depressants and respiratory depressants.
> You see, the chemiclas in zyprexa are the same as in a benzodiazepine but with more chemicals added to the compond called Olanzepine. The science of addiction is explained by scientists, but I have additional knowledge as to what causes addiction and how to overcome addiction. I am prohibited here by Mr. Hsiung to post a lot concerning that, which keeps me from posting support from my perspective as a lot of that support would come from a Jewish perspective as revealed to me which Mr Hsiung has posted to me a prohibiton concerning such to post here.
> You see, as to if zyprexa is or is not a BZD, the chemical structure of both have a benzo ring and a diazepine ring. Zyprexa has an additional ring, but containes the same two as a benzodiazepine. Now Chuck Berry and Mick Jagger have different songs, but they both contain the same ingrediants in the music and it's still rock-an-roll to me.
> LouFriends,
As to if a salami is a sausage, it really doesn't matter to me. They both have similar ingrediants and the individual ingrediants could cause whatever they cause regardless as to which one is eaten.
Here is a link to a site that answers as to if zyprexa is a benzodiazepine.
Lou
http://www.drugs.com/answers/does-zyprexa-have-a-benzo-in-it-204424.html
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 12, 2011, at 14:01:11
In reply to Lou's reply-izzitehybhnzoe, posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2011, at 21:05:23
Lou, please be sensible. We are not discussing salami or sausages.
Just because a compound is structurally similar to a benzodiazepine, does not mean that its effects are comparable. Flumazenil (Anexate) is structurally a benzodiazepine and yet it is used to reverse the effects of standard benzodiazepines in overdose.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 12, 2011, at 15:56:41
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-izzitehybhnzoe » Lou Pilder, posted by ed_uk2010 on December 12, 2011, at 14:01:11
> Lou, please be sensible. We are not discussing salami or sausages.
>
> Just because a compound is structurally similar to a benzodiazepine, does not mean that its effects are comparable. Flumazenil (Anexate) is structurally a benzodiazepine and yet it is used to reverse the effects of standard benzodiazepines in overdose.Ed,
You wrote,[...just because..similar to a benzodiazepine...].
The drug you cite is an off-shoot of a {type} of benzodiazepine.. So is Zyprexa.
The point here is that both contain the chemical structure of a benzodiazepine in the whole drug. So part of the drug contains a BZD. A BZD is in the drug.
Now with that understanding, the question that I have is if the off-shoot of the BZD could cause withdrawal to occure to a person that is addicted to a BZD. The drug that you cite could cause a person addicted to a BZD to go into withdrawal, so could not the same happen with Zyprexa? In your citation of the type of BZD, if that is given to someone that is addicted to a BZD, they go into withdrawal. Granted, it is used in the situation where a person is poisoned by a BZD, but if the person is addicted, then withdrawal synptoms start.
So no matter how you slice it, Zyprexa does have a BZD structure and if the drug that you cite could cause withdrawal to one addicted to a BZD, could not also Zyprexa do the same? I thihk that a person using Zyprexa that has once been addicted to a BZD and less than 2 years have run from the withdrawal of the drug, then IMHO the person could be in a pickle.
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on December 12, 2011, at 20:33:12
In reply to Lou's reply-psleycdhapsalhameigh » ed_uk2010, posted by Lou Pilder on December 12, 2011, at 15:56:41
Lou folks don't become poisoned by benzos I'm still here and alive after 41 years use of them. I am also able to cut down lower and lower daily. Just don't need them anymore. Now arsenic is a poison but if a homeopathic doctor prescribes it it's diluted in such a way as to be helpful for some in some specific conditions which before you ask or request I am not sure of which ones. Why not google arsenic and homeopathy and conditions used for? Phillipa
Posted by huxley on December 13, 2011, at 4:52:33
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-psleycdhapsalhameigh » Lou Pilder, posted by Phillipa on December 12, 2011, at 20:33:12
> Lou folks don't become poisoned by benzos I'm still here and alive after 41 years use of them. I am also able to cut down lower and lower daily. Just don't need them anymore. Now arsenic is a poison but if a homeopathic doctor prescribes it it's diluted in such a way as to be helpful for some in some specific conditions which before you ask or request I am not sure of which ones. Why not google arsenic and homeopathy and conditions used for? Phillipa
Are you trying to say that Benzo addiction, tolerance and withdrawal is not a real problem?
Posted by Phillipa on December 13, 2011, at 10:16:42
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-psleycdhapsalhameigh, posted by huxley on December 13, 2011, at 4:52:33
I'm bowing out of this thread as for me only they are not a problem for others this might not be the case but surely are not meds that are poisonous. Phillipa
Posted by JohnLA on December 13, 2011, at 14:32:14
In reply to Lou's reply-pstylrknro » JohnLA, posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2011, at 18:46:59
thanks lou.
Posted by JohnLA on December 13, 2011, at 14:32:50
In reply to Lou's reply-pstylrknro » JohnLA, posted by Lou Pilder on December 11, 2011, at 18:46:59
thanks lou.
Posted by JohnLA on December 13, 2011, at 14:34:34
In reply to Re: Lou's reply-pstylrknro, posted by JohnLA on December 13, 2011, at 14:32:50
sorry for the double post-
just wanted to thank lou (3rd time) for the music clips he posted in this thread.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on December 13, 2011, at 15:14:51
In reply to Lou's reply-psleycdhapsalhameigh » ed_uk2010, posted by Lou Pilder on December 12, 2011, at 15:56:41
>The drug that you cite could cause a person addicted to a BZD to go into withdrawal, so could not the same happen with Zyprexa?
No, flumazenil is a benzodiazepine receptor antagonist. Zyprexa is not.
>So no matter how you slice it, Zyprexa does have a BZD structure and if the drug that you cite could cause withdrawal to one addicted to a BZD, could not also Zyprexa do the same?
No, flumazenil is a benzodiazepine receptor antagonist. Zyprexa is not.
>I think that a person using Zyprexa that has once been addicted to a BZD and less than 2 years have run from the withdrawal of the drug, then IMHO the person could be in a pickle.
Zyprexa has its own withdrawal symptoms which result from its own pharmacological properties. In spite of structural similarities, Zyprexa is not clinically a 'benzodiazepine' because it does not have significant activity at benzodiazepine receptors.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 13, 2011, at 17:24:02
In reply to Zyprexa withdrawal, posted by HopelessAgony on December 7, 2011, at 2:12:04
> I will try to keep this post as brief as I can, but unfortunately to establish my situation in the detail required for anyone to make any kind of informed comment it will need to be significantly longer than most messages I have seen on this site. Thank you in advance, if you decide to make an attempt to get through it.
>
> I have suffered from a variety of disabling neurological symptoms for going on six years, beginning in approximately February of 2006. Around that time I suffered from some type of flu-like illness, but of a much more severe type than anything I had experienced before. During the illness I began suffering from intense headaches/neurological pain, panic attacks, vertigo, muscle spasms and twitching, and derealization/depersonalization, all of which persisted to some degree after the febrile portion of the illness was gone. The chronic vertigo/dizziness was the most persistent and devastating symptom, and I lost my job because of it. No conclusive diagnosis or cause of the symptoms I suffered was ever found, and though I was treated for possible Lyme disease with antibiotics for some time it never really made a dramatic difference in my symptoms. I was also prescribed benzodiazepines and Lexapro, which didn't really help my symptoms much either, but did lead to my becoming physically dependent on the benzodiazepines.
>
> I will now move the story forward to late 2007. After a terrible acute withdrawal episode from the benzodiazepine I was taking (running out of Ativan, no way to get prescription refilled) I decided that it would be best to attempt to withdraw completely from the medication. I switched over to Valium and tapered off the medication over a period of many months. At some point along the line I ended up on 200 mg Seroquel. It was difficult, but I managed to complete the benzo taper by the end of 2008. I also spent some time doing vestibular rehabilitation therapy, and the combination of the two actions did pay off by early 2009 I was virtually free of vertigo, panic attacks, and derealization. It was the best I had felt in a long time. I wasn't 100%, yet, however, so the psychiatric nurse practitioner I was seeing at the time suggested I try a bit of a non-addictive antipsychotic called Zyprexa in lieu of the Seroquel. I started on 2.5 mg. This was a big mistake.
>
> By mid 2009 I could feel things deteriorating again. My sleep worsened, and I found it more and more difficult to maintain a normal sleep schedule. I found myself not able to fall asleep until later and later, until I wasn't falling asleep until 8 or 9 o clock in the morning, and was waking up at 5 in the evening. All my attempts to maintain a normal sleep schedule failed - my body was determined to only sleep during the day. I gained fifteeen pounds. I started getting painful cystic acne all over my forehead, back, and chest. I started feeling derealization again.
>
> In late 2009 I decided to try to ditch the Zyprexa. I figured it was such a small dose I could just do it cold turkey it certainly couldn't be worse than what I went through when I finally jumped off the benzos. Of course, I was terribly wrong. The first night off, I didn't sleep very much. The next day, the horrible pressure in my head started. By the end of the next day, I had a fever of 101, and my anxiety was through the roof. My muscles had started to stiffen up, and mucus was pouring out of my nose. I went back on the pill, and these symptoms quickly resolved.
>
> To shorten the story somewhat, I failed two attempts at tapering the drug in the period from late 2009 to mid 2010. One of these attempts landed me in the hospital. Of course, they could do nothing for me. As a consequence of that attempt, I also now suffer from chronic agoraphobia and am more limited in the distance I can go from my home to seek help.
>
> In December of 2010 I began my third taper attempt, which I have come to refer to as The Long Defeat. It involves a milligram scale, a mortar and pestle, and carefully grinding the tablet into a fine powder which I then measure out. I've been aiming for a tapering rate of approximately 3-5% a month, and have in general met that goal. I am currently taking less than half a 2.5 mg pill, which is uncharted territory for me as I have never been on such a small dose since beginning the medication.
>
> However, the taper has been extremely difficult. I chronically suffer from devastating neurological symptoms such as headaches, insomnia, the aforementioned agoraphobia, painful fasciculations and muscle spasms, and fatigue. I often get some kind of spasms in my legs and feet that causes the muscles to shake and twitch violently and uncontrollably, like some kind of dystonia. Electric shock sensations in my head and ears. I constantly feel like my nervous system is in overdrive and hyperactive, and good days are few and far between. I have severe derealization constantly. I am unable to work or go to school.
>
> As bad as this sounds, sometimes things get much, much worse. On occasion I experience a kind of neurological pain that's so terrible I don't even know if there is a word to describe it. I haven't been able to find anything in any medical literature online that describes this particular symptom. It doesn't exactly feel like pain in the traditional sense of the word it is like an unberable tearing, twisting sensation in the brain that is unrelenting and remorseless, like your mind is being torn apart from the inside out. Akathisia is the only word that comes anywhere near describing what the symptom feels like, but it doesn't exactly match. I don't have any urge to move my body. Just a terrible internal sensation. This sensation will go on, at varying levels of intensity, for day after day or a week until it finally dies down. If it didn't die down eventually, suicide would be the only option.
>
> Over the past summer I had one of these episodes that was extremely persistent, and after a time I found myself experiencing the same kind of symptoms I experienced when I tried to cold turkey off benzodiazepines. I spent all of July and August in what for all intents and purposes felt like acute benzodiazepine withdrawal. But I haven't taken any benzos in over two years.
>
> I have not been in contact with the nurse practitioner who prescribed the Zyprexa, since I was dropped as a patient after I developed agoraphobia. I have managed to see both a psychiatrist and a neurologist at some point in the past year, and have had bloodwork done. There were no problems except an elevated cholesterol level. The neurologist basically referred me to another neurologist at another major local hospital to have MRIs and CT scans done because of the agoraphobia this has so far been impossible. Meetings with the psychiatrist were also not fruitful. He stated that anyone should be able to quit Zyprexa cold turkey if they want to with no problems, and that my symptoms were just due to an anxiety disorder. I asked how an anxiety disorder could cause shaking muscle spasms in my legs. Eventually he said I don't know what your real problem is exactly, but I bet you're going to suffer for a really long time! All other psychiatrists in my local area are either fully booked, or do not accept Medicare.
>
> I have very little support from my family in this endeavor, and I have not had any friends or social life in many years. The only thing that keeps me going through every long night after night of intense suffering is the hope that if I can somehow complete the medication taper I will have a chance at recovery. I feel certain that the medications I have taken over the years have left me with some form of brain damage, and this taper is my final gamble in hopes of having better days in the distant future. Sometimes, though, like these past few days, lying in bed with nothing but the pain I feel I might try anything to make it stop. Something like Remeron or Trazodone, something with a similar receptor action profile as Zyprexa, that I might use to make things easier. Then taper off the secondary medication. But I'm terrified of just compounding the damage.
>
> If you made it this far, thank you. Any advice or suggestions would be welcome.Friends,
If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I am requesting that you read the article in this link.
Lou
http://www.bcnc.org.uk/drugs.html
PS...If anyone (redacted by respondent)..after discontinueing from being addicted to a BZD within 2 years..(redacted by respondent) a bunch of baloney.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.