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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ayhan celebi on April 15, 2015, at 17:30:59
Greetings All,
I am hoping and praying someone can shed some light on the absolutely debilitating Anxiety that comes with 300MG dosage increases of Lithium Carbonate.
First 30 days - I started taking lithium in Janurary at 300mg dose for a whole month - no problems.
After 30 days - Upped the dose to 600mgs, and all was working very well for 2 weeks. Mania gone, just the depression remained.At 6 weeks - The day after the dose increased to 900mgs, anxiety and panic attacks began. The anxiety would get less and less over the following two weeks, but I could never tell if it would actually go away due to a new dosage increase.
After 8 weeks - At 1200mgs same pattern. Dosage increase lead to extreme anxiety, and would lesson over the next two weeks.
After 10 weeks - At 1500mgs same deal again.
After 12 weeks - I had my last dosage increase on 3/30/2015, have waited the two weeks but I can't tell if the anxiety is any less than it had been.
Can anyone tell me if this a permaneent or temporary scenario? The lack of information on the subject is downright astonishing, and I can't help but wonder if this is Lithium's dirty little secret. Should I try citrtate or orotate instead of carbonate? Should I quit Lithium? Is it possible to take a lower dose of lithium with something else?
So tired of this situation. Get rid of the depression at the expense of your sanity. Brilliant...........
Posted by Ayhan Celebi on April 15, 2015, at 20:29:57
In reply to Lithium Carbonate induced Anxiety/Panic Attacks, posted by ayhan celebi on April 15, 2015, at 17:30:59
I'm sorry "the absolutely debilitating Anxiety that comes with 300MG dosage increases," should read "that CAN come with 300MG dosage increases."
My case falls in the 0%-1% bracket, so it's extremely rare. I just happen to be that guy. Please don't let my experience discourage you from seeking lithium treatment.
Posted by bleauberry on April 16, 2015, at 7:37:59
In reply to Lithium Carbonate induced Anxiety/Panic Attacks, posted by ayhan celebi on April 15, 2015, at 17:30:59
Lithium has many varying mechanisms throughout the body, as does any salt or mineral, so I think it is difficult to pin down what is happening or why.
One of the lesser talked about mechanisms is that it can boost norepinephrine activity, which would certainly explain things. But it isn't that simple.
The thing I personally do not agree with is the journey to get to a certain target dose, and accidentally miss the exact best dose because it wasn't being looked for. The doc is looking at 3000mg as a target perhaps, but how is anyone to know that 450mg is your best dose but they blew right past it too soon. And now it's so late in the game, maybe things got messed up.
Who knows. Just sayin....weird stuff happens. Me, I just do what works the best and it is usually not a dose or a substance that an MD chose for me. But that's just me.I hear ya....it doesn't seem fair to have to be made more nuts in an effort to try to get un-nuts. Crazy. All of these meds are so powerful I bet half the docs that write scripts for them wouldn't be able to tolerate the same doses they dish out every day if they tried them themselves just...to be fair about it and be able to empathize authentically with the patient.
My long journeys taught me that the whole anxiety spectrum of symptoms is better managed or cured with botanical medicines and/or supplements than pharmaceuticals. They have much more "blanket coverage" for whatever might be going on that we will never know, they cover a lot of possibilities sort of like a shot gun approach, and present the body with a multitude of health benefits....which is the pharms don't do.
For just one example, a common yellow plant compound called berberine is something I take every day and have for a couple years. What does it do? Anti-anxiety. Anti-depression. Anti-fungus. Anti-biotic. Anti-Lyme. Pro-blood sugar balance. Pro-immune system support. Pro-blood cleaning and thinning. And if I keep going, this will get much longer. See what I mean? meds can't do that.
I'm not suggesting berberine or anything else....just trying to make a point....anxiety is complicated....many mechanisms out of kilter....wide blanket spectrum is needed....to cover many possible causes all at once.
In the med field alone, no herbs, I think my favorite approach for anything bipolar related or schizo related, is the antipsychotics in combo with SSRI or SNRI or Ritalin. My fav in that camp is Zyprexa. Zyprexa with Prozac IMO should be choice #1 for anything bipolar with depression. Why antipsychotics? Why Zyprexa? Because if we were to spend a few days researching archives of this site, reviews at other sites, everything we can find on patient opinions of treatments....the antipsychotics win that battle pretty easy, and it appears like the best success stories had Zyprexa in them, followed up with Abilify and sometimes Seroquel. Not scientific....just general impression upon completion of the project. But Lithium?....not. You won't find the same results with that. Or any other mood stabilizer.
The antipsychotics have one thing about them that is sort of in a way similar to herbs.....wide spectrum mechanisms that hit a lot of stuff all at once.
Hang in there! It does get better!
Posted by Christ_empowered on April 16, 2015, at 11:52:03
In reply to Lithium Carbonate induced Anxiety/Panic Attacks, posted by ayhan celebi on April 15, 2015, at 17:30:59
I dunno. Panic attacks and anxiety have been reported with various antipsychotics, sometimes occur with antidepressants, can obviously be a problem with stimulants...
...I had a huge problem with anxiety on depakote, and docs told me that depakote can only help anxiety. Right. That's why I was shaking and fearful all the time. I take trileptal and lamictal now...no such problems.
I went to The Google and found this : http://www.jneurosci.org/content/26/22/6031.full
Something about adolescent rats, lithium, increased anxiety and some gene stuff. I dunno.
I'd be more worried about your kidneys, at least long term. :-)
Posted by ayhan celebi on April 16, 2015, at 13:25:17
In reply to Re: Lithium Carbonate induced Anxiety/Panic Attacks, posted by bleauberry on April 16, 2015, at 7:37:59
Hey thank you so much for your response, and insight.
About 80% of the anxiety has simply vanished upon awaking this morning! Very strange.
One thing that comes to mind is perhaps my brain no longer feels like it needs to be in "fight or Flight" mode because I am no longer increasing the dose.
I will look into berberine and Zyprexa if the anxiety returns. Don't worry, If I choose to take these and encounter problems, I won't blame you or dr-bob.org. :-) Thanks again for your help and very helpful words of encouragement!
Posted by ayhan celebi on April 16, 2015, at 14:08:54
In reply to Re: Lithium Carbonate induced Anxiety/Panic Attacks, posted by Christ_empowered on April 16, 2015, at 11:52:03
Great info. The rat study was interesting as well.
Now, as of today, about 80% of the anxiety simply vanished!
My brain may no longer feel threatened due to stabilizing the dosage to 1500, but if it was that simple, then why so many cases of anxiety prolonged for years? My opinion regarding the matter is non-scientific simply because all forms of logic and reason seem not to apply when dealing with anxiety, and my successes in resolving it, I believe are due to processes of a non-scientific nature.
Posted by phidippus on May 7, 2015, at 22:02:46
In reply to Lithium Carbonate induced Anxiety/Panic Attacks, posted by ayhan celebi on April 15, 2015, at 17:30:59
What u are experiencing is highly unusual. Are you taking anything else?
Eric
Posted by ayhan celebi on May 8, 2015, at 11:04:26
In reply to Re: Lithium Carbonate induced Anxiety/Panic Attacks » ayhan celebi, posted by phidippus on May 7, 2015, at 22:02:46
I hadn't been taking anything else until recently when lowering the dose down to 600 mg eliminated the anxiety altogether. In my searches, I have stumbled across two cases where an increase in dosage caused anxiety. In these , it was an increase from 900 to 1200 mg that caused it. In my case, it was 600 to 900 mg that did me in.
Apart from that, I do have GAD, but the anxiety experienced from 600 to 900 and beyond was an entirely different animal. I'm so glad that it's now damn over. Taking Buspar now (again this is recent, after dropping Li to 600 mg), and it's helping tremendously. I in turn hope clearning anxiety will clear my remaining depression.
Posted by phidippus on May 8, 2015, at 15:26:55
In reply to Re: Lithium Carbonate induced Anxiety/Panic Attacks, posted by ayhan celebi on May 8, 2015, at 11:04:26
Was it more like akathisia?
Eric
Posted by Former poster on May 22, 2015, at 11:37:50
In reply to Lithium Carbonate induced Anxiety/Panic Attacks, posted by ayhan celebi on April 15, 2015, at 17:30:59
Yes it is lithium's dirty little secret. I have several posts about it. Took me years to get over and get normal again. Lithium is pure bunk IMHO.
This is the end of the thread.
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