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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 8:30:52
Hi.
I'm sorry I post so many posts and spam the boards :(
I feel bad about what I posted above. Because I know that you had a J&J vaccine and what I posted may have you worried. And I don't really know what I am talking about and I don't want to make you feel worried because of my ignorance or because I got something wrong. I don't want you to worry unnecessarily.
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1. We are learning that animal models aren't very good models for how things will affect people. Animals appear to have different cytokines and their immune response (particularly) works differently from people.
2. We can't learn much about how things will work in people from how things work in a test tube or a petrie dish. Or extrapolate from how cells in culture (in a dish) are affected (or infected) compared to cells in the body.
3. There is some stuff on how adenovirus vector (DNA content delivered packaged in adenovirus) has been found to go to and infiltrate different kinds of cells in people. Liver cells. Dendritic cells. Blood stem cells.
4. They seem to think that the vaccine works by targeting dendritic cells. The Dendritic cell then makes the spike protein and displays it on it's membrane (not on a MHC receptor I don't think - natively). The spike protein was made in the ER? Inserted into the membrane of the cell.
5. That means the dendritic cell is targeted for destruction by the immune system. Because it's displaying foreign protein. So the cells infected by the immunisation will be targeted for destruction by the immune system.
6. I was thinking that more than just a few dendritic cells would uptake the virus. There is some evidence that different kinds of cells can uptake adenovirus. From liver cells to muscle cells to bone stem cells to gonads (in animals it has been found to be capable of inserting DNA into germ line cells in some instances.
7. All the cells have the same DNA. But different cells use different parts of the DNA. So all cells theoretically could make... Insulin. Say. But in practice only one partiuclar kind of cell in the pancreas makes mRNA of the bit of the DNA that makes the protein that folds to insulin. So the DNA is only expressed by some of the cells some of the time. It's complicated about when the cell decides (how the cell decides) to transcribe that particular bit into mRNA or how it decides to 'turn that gene on' or whether it is dormant and not making anything.
8. So even if the vaccine affects all of the cells that doesn't mean they will necessarily make mRNA or protein even if the DNA that has been inserted into the nucleus stays there... Forever. Even if it did. Rather than a few infected cells simply spamming as much adenovirus DNA spike protein as they could until they die...
9. Initially there was hope that they might be able to cure single gene deletion disorders with the technology. So, for example, some people lack a functioning copy of teh gene that codes for a partiuclar blood clotting factor. The idea would be to introduce that DNA that could make that into the cells... And I suppose the hope would be tha the cells that usually would make clotting factors (I don't remember what kind of cell does that) would then use the DNA to make teh protein appropriately. Or other disorders that are single gene deletions.
10. In practice they haven't been able to do that. They have found that cells might start producing the protein we want -- but it doesn't appear to last. Abolished 2-3 weeks after injection administration.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/adenovirus-vector
So... The way that is telling the story, anyway... It makes it seem like a really really good use of the technology would be to get a cell (e.g., a dendritic cell) to produce antigen for a short time (the response will die out in 2-3 weeks). But that burst of activity could be used to induce a long-lasting immune response. Because the B cells (plasma cells) that were induced to replicate... They persist. So they can spam antibodies when needed.
Something did seem to go wrong with a few people with the blood clotting thing. It could be that a different thing went on / went wrong with different ones of them. But it did seem that in a few very rare individuals they did have a very extreme response to the vaccine.
They are saying one reason why the vaccine may be less effective in some parts of the world is becuase people there have been exposed to the adenovirus vector. So they are immune to the vaccine delivery mechanism. So in other words, it might be not that the virus is evolving to be immune to the vaccine but it is that people are evolving to be immune to the vaccine.
One thing I saw said that they are a bit concerned that they might only be able to 'infect' people with adenovirus vector 2x in their lifetime. That could be a legitmate reason for them to want to reserve adenovirus vaccine for people later in life. Of course they will be (they are in fact) working on altering the adenovirus so that people don't become immune to the mechanism of delivery.
It's remarkable how... Simple. And then complicated.... Things are. For sure.
I hope I didn't worry you.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 8:38:15
In reply to phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 8:30:52
and i haven't seen anything at all to say that there is any reason why someone who has had 1 or 2 shots of j&j or adenovirus vaccine (sputnik, j&j, astrazenica all use different variants of adenovirus) couldn't have an mRNA vaccine (or respond well to a different adenovirus variant vaccine) the following year. or however often we turn out to need a new vaccine...
Posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 8:47:45
In reply to phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 8:30:52
I don't know if the cells that take up the vaccine exocytose the spike protein into the interstitial spaces or wherever... or whether they display them on their membrane like other proteins that are made to be inserted into the membrane.
so i don't know if the cells that make the spike protein are destined for destruction... either because they are displaying the spike protein so the immune cells destroy them. or because they have become hijacked into making spike protein until they explode from failing to make enough pumpkins (NaK atpase).
Posted by Phillipa on May 29, 2021, at 9:11:09
In reply to Re: phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on May 29, 2021, at 8:38:15
Alex, no worries. Right now they are working on seeing if it's safe or works to give a different vaccine as the booster vaccine. I'm not sure that I will get another vaccine. I did fine with the masking and social distancing and since we have no idea who is or who isn't vaccinated we still wear our masks when in a store or anywhere there are a lot of people. When home and outside with neighbors talking we don't mask. Safe in the outside air. Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on May 31, 2021, at 21:42:02
In reply to Re: phillipa » alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on May 29, 2021, at 9:11:09
cool
Posted by Phillipa on May 31, 2021, at 23:17:04
In reply to Re: phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on May 31, 2021, at 21:42:02
I saw where you have flooding from all the rain. Is it near you? Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on June 2, 2021, at 20:26:10
In reply to Re: phillipa » alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on May 31, 2021, at 23:17:04
Hi,
We have flood up north and down south. I'm in Central Auckland so no floods for me. If there's a Tsunami I'd be wiped out, but no floods.
Posted by Phillipa on June 2, 2021, at 20:47:49
In reply to Re: phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on June 2, 2021, at 20:26:10
Hi Alex glad at the moment you are safe. Hoping you do not get any Tsunamis sp? Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on June 5, 2021, at 22:01:24
In reply to Re: phillipa » alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on June 2, 2021, at 20:47:49
there was a tsunami warning a while back. they didn't know if it would make it here. it didn't. appreciably. but there was a warning for the people with boats on the harbour and the harbour side apartments etc.
I suspect it was a hoax. scam. a test of their alert system. the government was getting all excited about their newfound power to take control of people's cellphones with having them emit god awful noises in the name of national security. sending out awful noises to people on the basis of their address. quite the virus spam hoax of a thing.
I suppose.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 5, 2021, at 22:03:51
In reply to Re: phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on June 5, 2021, at 22:01:24
testing the alert system. because they developed whatever so they could send out messages to people about changes in alert levels for various stages of lockdown.
then they used it for a tsunami warning. I think it was mostly to test it. to see if they could send out targeted alerts.
the issue is where you draw the line on that. I mean... how many alerts is sort of... before people start leaving their phones behind. people won't keep them close if they are obnoxious with alerts.
there hasn't been one since. I think someone got a talking to about there not being too many alerts...
Posted by Phillipa on June 5, 2021, at 22:44:10
In reply to Re: phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on June 5, 2021, at 22:03:51
Alex like the boy who cried wolf soon people just ignored them. Cause there were too many false alarms
Posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2021, at 13:21:18
In reply to Re: phillipa » alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on June 5, 2021, at 22:44:10
> Alex like the boy who cried wolf soon people just ignored them. Cause there were too many false alarms
Yeah.
Except worse. People voluntarily choosing to carry their personal tracking mechanism (cell-phone) is important for national (and international) security. If they do something to make carrying the phone obnoxious (like too many alerts) then they undo all the work they did with CandyCrush and free music and so on and so forth to train people to *like* their devices and *choose* to carry them with them always.
I suspect someone got a talking to.
Posted by Phillipa on June 8, 2021, at 8:38:21
In reply to Re: phillipa, posted by alexandra_k on June 7, 2021, at 13:21:18
We don't even keep cell phones on us. Just take them with us in the car. Use for necessities only. Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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