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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 222. Go back in thread:
Posted by spoc on May 14, 2004, at 14:49:24
In reply to Re: Pardon my seeking a friendly label... I apologise » 64bowtie, posted by Larry Hoover on May 14, 2004, at 14:18:01
> ... Yet, also without a shadow of a doubt, the word you used could only be taken as an insult. >
---> > Larry,
> >
> > Good to see you back in the saddle. Try to keep your head down. The locals are restless and taking potshots indesciminately. > >----
This may be a useful point to look at the kinds of things that could be done differently; cases where if we think more about something before we post it, the potential for its words to give offense to some could be seen.To wit, is it just me, or is there something inadvisable in the words -- and their inference -- contained in the above sentence about the locals? Thought this might be helpful.
Posted by finelinebob on May 14, 2004, at 16:46:32
In reply to Re: Pardon my seeking a friendly label... I apologise » 64bowtie, posted by Larry Hoover on May 14, 2004, at 14:18:01
> > Hope you continue to bring good stuff.
>
> Sorry to disappoint. Bob won't apologize. He'll never admit he was wrong. He'll never admit his decisions were grossly unfair. I'm just trying to warn people. This is not a safe environment.
Pardon me for butting in, since I missed that episode and I've been away too long to have had a chance to get to know you. Furthermore, I'm not trying to defend Dr. Bob or his policies (he can do that quite fine without me) nor am I saying that I really know anything about his rules (outside of what's published here, I don't), but...The more people there are on a public bulletin board like Babble, the greater the variation. The greater the variation, the greater the chance that a simple set of "rules" will break or that someone will have these rules applied to them an unfair manner (from at least one perspective). The moment moderators start publicly second guessing and reversing decisions is the moment that board goes straight to hell for everybody. Immediately, everybody's exception to the rules need to be addressed with equal forgiveness and no discipline is deserved. The only way a moderator can stay on top of the chaos is to keep the simple, unavoidably flawed set of rules, make firm decisions on them, and not apologize about decisions unless there is a general outcry about a decision.
Even then, umps don't reverse their decisions when 50,000 fans, 60 ballers and 20 coaches scream about who was safe and who was out.
I'm not saying any of this to say who was right and who was wrong in what happened to you.
I **am** saying it because people here that I **do** know have jumped in, saying how valuable you are to the community. If your anger pushes you to leave Babbleland, I hope that sometime soon you can step back from it find some perspective for it, and come back ready to give us more of who you are.
cheers,
flb
Posted by shar on May 14, 2004, at 23:58:03
In reply to The ump's a bum! » Larry Hoover, posted by finelinebob on May 14, 2004, at 16:46:32
I sure do wish you'd stay. And, it won't be complete til Zen's here, too!
Sigh. I don't know how civility runs off so many good people!
Shar
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2004, at 1:35:40
In reply to Pardon my seeking a friendly label... I apologise » Larry Hoover, posted by 64bowtie on May 14, 2004, at 12:46:42
> > he has overstepped his bounds.
>
> That feels like a put down, and is more clearly not an acceptable I-statment.That one I overlooked, I apologize for that, and I'm sorry for any hurt it caused.
--
> more egregious acts of incivility
>
> You disgust me.
>
> Larry Hoover> The locals are ... taking potshots indesciminately.
>
> 64bowtieStill, please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Two wrongs don't make a right.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or post a follow-up here.
Sharing something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Brio D Chimp on May 15, 2004, at 6:22:28
In reply to Re: please be civil » Larry Hoover » 64bowtie, posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2004, at 1:35:40
Thanks Bob. I think that was the right thing to do.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 8:14:16
In reply to Re: please be civil » Larry Hoover » 64bowtie, posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2004, at 1:35:40
> > > he has overstepped his bounds.
> >
> > That feels like a put down, and is more clearly not an acceptable I-statment.
>
> That one I overlooked, I apologize for that, and I'm sorry for any hurt it caused.I struggle with how you could have overlooked it, Bob. I quoted the entire post in the one you triple blocked me for.
Again, I reiterate my point that inconsistent site moderation was a precipitating factor in my indignant reply.
Again, too, I reiterate my perception that you appear to focus your civility sensors on me, while ignoring egregious postings in the same thread. Heck, in the same message.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/303226.html
>
> > more egregious acts of incivilityI fail to see what is uncivil about this phrase. Are mere mortals precluded from conclusions about civility?
> > You disgust me.
Please accept my apologies if I offended you. This was another test. St. James called you a pedophile without so much as a PBC. I was trying to clarify the rules around statements made to you. Clarity eludes me still.
> > Larry Hoover
>
> > The locals are ... taking potshots indesciminately.
> >
> > 64bowtie
>
> Still, please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Two wrongs don't make a right.Are you accepting that you wronged me? If so, isn't some sort of reparation in order?
> If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>
> or post a follow-up here.
>
> Sharing something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
>
> Thanks,
>
> BobI think I covered the issues in these two posts:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/303199.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/303220.htmlLar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 8:54:34
In reply to The ump's a bum! » Larry Hoover, posted by finelinebob on May 14, 2004, at 16:46:32
> Pardon me for butting in
I don't see any butting in going on.
> I **am** saying it because people here that I **do** know have jumped in, saying how valuable you are to the community. If your anger pushes you to leave Babbleland, I hope that sometime soon you can step back from it find some perspective for it, and come back ready to give us more of who you are.
>
> cheers,
> flbAnger is my secondary emotional response. The primary response is hurt. I don't let anyone question my emotions. Even me.
I'd like to argue that it's irrelevant whether I'm a contributor to the community or not. Logically, I could make that case, but emotionally, it's clearly a factor. In fact, it was my sense of being valued that made the emotional response to being unfairly treated (I have not found a way to any other conclusion) very large indeed.
It has taken me four months, almost, to even be able to talk about what happened in a rational way. I perceive the triple block as an act of violence, excessive and inappropriate. I'm not going to reiterate my arguments for that here.
Your umpire analogy is apt, but only to a point. An umpire rules instantly, but only on things he sees. The home plate umpire goes to e.g. the third plate umpire to rule on whether a batter swung or not. There is a delegation of jurisdiction.
Our "umpire" is often missing in action. Gone for days at a time, and in his place, he has delegates with insufficient knowledge (re: block history, for example) and power. (Aside to Dinah: You do a wonderful and perhaps too thankless job, sweetheart. This is not a criticism of you.)
With respect to coming back or not, I was moving closer to doing so, but only until I saw yet another example of gross inconsistency between what He says and what He does.
I don't care if I'm right, or not. I'm telling you what it's like to be me. I feel unprotected by Bob, when people take character shots at me, and go unpunished. Maybe I'm a little biased about the me part. Whatever. I feel persecuted by Bob, as I feel that I am held to a different standard than other posters are and have been.
Lar
Posted by Brio D Chimp on May 15, 2004, at 9:17:36
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 8:14:16
You are the first person Bob ever apologized to but there are dozens that have been treated unfairly and hurt here. If he made "reparations" to you wouldn't that be unfair to all the others?
Best wishes
> > > > he has overstepped his bounds.
> > >
> > > That feels like a put down, and is more clearly not an acceptable I-statment.
> >
> > That one I overlooked, I apologize for that, and I'm sorry for any hurt it caused.
>
> I struggle with how you could have overlooked it, Bob. I quoted the entire post in the one you triple blocked me for.
>
> Again, I reiterate my point that inconsistent site moderation was a precipitating factor in my indignant reply.
>
> Again, too, I reiterate my perception that you appear to focus your civility sensors on me, while ignoring egregious postings in the same thread. Heck, in the same message.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/303226.html
>
> >
> > > more egregious acts of incivility
>
> I fail to see what is uncivil about this phrase. Are mere mortals precluded from conclusions about civility?
>
> > > You disgust me.
>
> Please accept my apologies if I offended you. This was another test. St. James called you a pedophile without so much as a PBC. I was trying to clarify the rules around statements made to you. Clarity eludes me still.
>
> > > Larry Hoover
> >
> > > The locals are ... taking potshots indesciminately.
> > >
> > > 64bowtie
> >
> > Still, please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Two wrongs don't make a right.
>
> Are you accepting that you wronged me? If so, isn't some sort of reparation in order?
>
Posted by Dinah on May 15, 2004, at 10:10:42
In reply to Re: The ump's a bum! » finelinebob, posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 8:54:34
Lar, I know this isn't a criticism of me. But the fact was that it was because of my actions that you are still feeling so hurt about that incident. I feel really bad about that. I hate to see you in so much pain.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 10:28:42
In reply to Inconsistent Apologizing » Larry Hoover, posted by Brio D Chimp on May 15, 2004, at 9:17:36
> If he made "reparations" to you wouldn't that be unfair to all the others?
Is that another way of saying, "Don't ask for the right thing to be done, because then everyone else will expect the right thing?"
Maybe I should fake suicide, because that's a precendent-setting way to get a block reduced.
Posted by Brio D Chimp on May 15, 2004, at 10:43:34
In reply to Re: Inconsistent Apologizing » Brio D Chimp, posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 10:28:42
> > If he made "reparations" to you wouldn't that be unfair to all the others?
>
> Is that another way of saying, "Don't ask for the right thing to be done, because then everyone else will expect the right thing?"
No it was a way of asking for the right thing to be done for everybody.
>
> Maybe I should fake suicide, because that's a precendent-setting way to get a block reduced.Well don't expect me to ask if that is what you did since that is what got me blocked for 24 weeks! Not withstanding that Bob had left posts up saying that WAS what happened WITHOUT comment...asking if it was true was cause to be blocked for 6 months! Sorry for adding my personal tale to your Thread.
You have my sympathy.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 10:56:27
In reply to Re: Inconsistent Apologizing » Larry Hoover, posted by Brio D Chimp on May 15, 2004, at 10:43:34
> > Maybe I should fake suicide, because that's a precendent-setting way to get a block reduced.
>
> Well don't expect me to ask if that is what you did since that is what got me blocked for 24 weeks! Not withstanding that Bob had left posts up saying that WAS what happened WITHOUT comment...asking if it was true was cause to be blocked for 6 months! Sorry for adding my personal tale to your Thread.I have talked about that incident many times on the Admin board, quite literally and explicitly. If my mentioning it again leads to another block, my argument is most clearly proven.
Lar
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2004, at 11:06:36
In reply to Re: Inconsistent Apologizing » Brio D Chimp, posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 10:28:42
> Maybe I should fake suicide, because that's a precendent-setting way to get a block reduced.
Please don't be sarcastic or joke about suicide. I've asked you to be civil before, so now I'm going to block you from posting for another 6 weeks.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or email me, or redirect a follow-up here after your block is over.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 15, 2004, at 14:40:44
In reply to Re: blocked for 6 weeks » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2004, at 11:06:36
Dr Bob.. I do think this one is unfair.. In my eyes it wasn't a joke or sarcastic, but simply stating a fact that we all know to be true.
remember, you don't block for intent, and the words themselves are nothing but fact.
Nikki
Posted by shadows721 on May 15, 2004, at 16:46:43
In reply to Dr. Bob is a hypocrite, posted by Larry Hoover on May 13, 2004, at 10:23:57
I don't know you, but I have read your posts and feel like I do. That's how babble has worked for me. It's an odd thing. We don't see each other or even hear each other's voice, but we do effect one another.
As a fellow sufferer with PTSD, I can understand the pain that you posted about from childhood. I think of Ptsd as a shadow player in my life. The pain of childhood comes back and repeats itself over and over again in other relationships as a shadow player in my life. I think often how is this pain reminding me of a pain in my past. Often, it is not my current pain that is really the problem. It is my unresolved pain of my past that needs my attention. What's really odd about this? It is my mind that is doing it all along? It feels terrible.
I am worried about you. I hope you will come back and possible make a new friend like me. I know that I could use a friend too. I tend to isolate myself, because of my ptsd symptoms. We can discuss things like this Ptsd topic.
I hope you will be safe in your weeks ahead. I care about you, my fellow babbler, and I hope to see you again. Sharing our past painful ptsd symptoms can help lighten this heavy load we carry inside.
Posted by SLS on May 16, 2004, at 13:28:41
In reply to Dr. Bob is a hypocrite, posted by Larry Hoover on May 13, 2004, at 10:23:57
Hi Larry.
I want to post something, but I don't know what to say.
I would really like to fix things if I could, but I wouldn't know where to start.
Your emotions are very intense. I'm trying to appreciate them well enough so as not to underestimate their importance to you and everyone else. However, I'm sure I will. I still don't know what to say, though.
I'm very glad to see that you make no apology for, or feel the need to justify and validate, your feelings. That's very healthy.
I am very selfish.
I want you to let go of all of this crap and just start posting again on every board except for this one. I want you to be strong enough so as to be invulnerable to the judgments of Dr. Bob or anyone else. I want you to ignore the past and deal with any personal hurt and insecurities by yourself. I want you to be a bigger man than anyone who would have you be otherwise. I want you to look past their imperfections and move forward despite them. I want you to teach me. I want you to support me. I want you to care about me. I want you to love me.
I want you to start posting again in six weeks.
- Scott
Posted by spoc on May 16, 2004, at 13:40:49
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob is a hypocrite » Larry Hoover, posted by SLS on May 16, 2004, at 13:28:41
....now if *that* isn't a compelling and ingeniously conceived argument for why Larry should come back -- and feel good about it -- I don't know what is! Perfection, Scott! See? Everyone can (potentially) be validated by these outlooks, and be able to go on. I don't mean to minimize or underestimate anything, I just really thought that was beautifully said! :- )
Posted by karen_kay on May 16, 2004, at 21:02:07
In reply to Dr. Bob is a hypocrite, posted by Larry Hoover on May 13, 2004, at 10:23:57
i'm very sorry you are hurting right now. i do hope you find the support you need at home, as babble obviously isn't an option right now since you've been blocked. i'm sorry about that too. i hope you are well larry. and i hope that in time you do decide to return, as there are many, many people who would love to see you back again.
larry, take care of yourself.
Posted by lil' jimi on May 17, 2004, at 2:01:30
In reply to Re: blocked for 6 weeks » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2004, at 11:06:36
Hey, Hsiung!
wha up? check this out, man ... like you just blocked Hoover for six weeks, Right?
.... AND like you also blocked him last time for SIX WEEKS, right ?
see wha i'm sayin?
we thought you had a deal where you crank up the thumb screws ... heh, heh ... i meant ... increased the length of these bans as one's rap sheet gets longer ... ... ... Or has some new policy come in force ... gone out of force?now if you fix things so folks can say I got Hoover a longer ban ... ... i will scream, real loud, and then hold my breath really long ... ... and tell everyone that i think you're a ... ... some kind of bad person ... ... ... because i LIKE hoover, man! ... ... he's like, the coolest, daddy-o!
another thing ... ... since we wouldn't be doing any incivility here at pb ... how come words like "Pedophile" and "Hypocrite" in phrases (in subject line, for cripes sakes already) like "you are a ... " seem to be getting overlooked?
look i gotta a lot of other questions, you know ... but all this ca ca with banning Hoover is just too way out ...
okay listen, get back to me about these questions i'm asking here and we can get to the other ones, okay
1) so do bans increase in severity per incident/non-incident or not ... ... and was there underlying reason for this reprieve for Hoover ... ... like i Am in favor of cutting him some slack, okay? ... ... but ol' mentally challenged me wants to see the internal consistency here ...
and
2) speaking of consistency, the deal with "pedophile" and "hypocrite", huh? ... like what is it, these ain't compliments, man ... ...i'll be listening ...
caio,
~ ol' lil' jimi
Posted by mair on May 17, 2004, at 10:29:30
In reply to Re: Inconsistent Apologizing » Brio D Chimp, posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 10:56:27
...gone the next. I'm sorry I wasn't around when you stopped back in. I'm sorry you haven't been doing well. I'd like to echo everything Scott said so beautifully. Please come back.
Mair
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 18, 2004, at 1:52:59
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob is a hypocrite » Larry Hoover, posted by SLS on May 16, 2004, at 13:28:41
Posted by SLS on May 18, 2004, at 7:15:51
In reply to Re: please keep the subject line civil too thanks (nm), posted by Dr. Bob on May 18, 2004, at 1:52:59
Sorry.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by lil' jimi on May 21, 2004, at 18:12:47
In reply to Re: please keep the subject line civil too thanks (nm), posted by Dr. Bob on May 18, 2004, at 1:52:59
dear rh, md
like, huh?
question number three-o:
are we just now civiling subject lines?
and/or
are we just catching up on an oversight of missing the subject line offenses before?
and/or
something else?still searching for a consistent grasp of the shape of policies-babble here ... ...
hoover man's sentence descrepancy remains a mystery .... .... any light?
love,
~ jim
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 22, 2004, at 0:18:27
In reply to Re: please keep the subject line civil too thanks » Dr. Bob, posted by lil' jimi on May 21, 2004, at 18:12:47
> are we just now civiling subject lines?
No, that's nothing new.
> hoover man's sentence descrepancy remains a mystery .... .... any light?
I think it's good to be flexible sometimes...
Welcome back,
Bob
Posted by lil' jimi on May 25, 2004, at 1:32:09
In reply to Re: subject line, posted by Dr. Bob on May 22, 2004, at 0:18:27
hi dr, bob,
> > are we just now civiling subject lines?
>
> No, that's nothing new.("civiling"? ... ... what a goof i am ... i hadn't noticed that till now ... thanks for understanding me there ... aka 'policing')
here's where i get in trouble see ... ... ...
my (others?) expectations of fairness hinge to a large extent on consistency ... ... and a consistency which may not be humanly attainable ... ... so that perhaps simple oversights might to perceived as tolerated, if not deliberate, unfairness ...
... my case in point being:
i imagined the most immediate sanctions would be triggered by the most immediate, direct, public offense, such as subject lines ... so my expectaions were that the subject lines would be policed first and offenses there would be indicators of offenses within a post ...
(... i am sorry that this is too obvious, but i feel i have to explain myself ... )because of these considerations, i presumed, incorrectly, that offensive terms in subject lines are not being overlooked accidently when the post's content has been cited for incivilty ... ... this is especially so when words such as "pedophile" and "hypocrite" remain in subject lines and persist in threads even after the posts have lead to pbcs and bannings ... ... i get to thinking there's some special status for subject lines ... ... which serves to undermine my (others?) confidence in the consistency of the application of the standards of civility ... or the standards themselves
... ... the challenge is that mere inadvertence can create ammo for a case of there being injustice ...
or is it just me?
> > hoover man's sentence descrepancy remains a mystery .... .... any light?
>
> I think it's good to be flexible sometimes...well, that is a good thing ... ... and i for one would like to see Larry extended every possible flexibility ... ... please?
> Welcome back,
>
> Bobwell, thank you ... ... i appreciate that ...
i still have some more qusetions but they can wait for now ...take care,
~ jim
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