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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tealady on September 19, 2003, at 8:03:25
In reply to Re: update (insomnia) » Boba Fat, posted by Larry Hoover on June 10, 2003, at 7:05:00
Hi Lar,
I posted this earlier,and thought I had lost it..then found it again on the wrong board.(phew)
So I've copied it here.
Hope this is Ok, DrBob?Hi Lar,
Reviewing some of the boxes of my old meds to try to see if any pattern developed re pdrugs (I sometimes scrawl comments on the boxes), I came across some temezepam and wondered why I had been prescribed it back in 99.I thought it was for insomnia. Until this week I thought "insomnia" meant you couldn't get to sleep, and I was sleeping too much...although noise prevents any restful sleep.
As I've improved the "sleep" quality has changed from something like fighting falling into an unconsiousness to approaching normal sleep, time asleep has lessened also. I think there was a noticeable improvement on adding in tyrosine (and probably magnesium/zinc too in larger doses for a couple of weeks). I'm off them now, but I'm staying awake still :)
I still need a snooze for about 3 hrs in the day..but getting there.I have just this week found out on the net that waking during sleep (which I have always done)is ALSO considered insomnia!(type 2)
During the night I also am waking up after only 2 to 4 hrs sleep, although lately I've noticed I no longer feel so wiped out when I do wake up. .. which is good. However, I never seem to get to that REM sleep stage though which is needed for growth hormone etc
I was wondering about temezepam. Do you remember if it gave you a "normal" deeper sleep, and was it prescribed for waking up during sleep a lot..or because you couldn't get to sleep?
I also suspect after the reading this week, that lack of oxygen is a problem as I've got the room closed up due to smoke from fires in winter etc. I often wake up and need fresh air.
I read
"sleep apnea or breath holding can happen when you don't get enough sleep"
..a lack of oxygen can reduce growth hormone (and estrogen in women, testosterone in men) "The Goddess Diet" p151..and this changes your energy balance and insulin sensitivity creating a change in your brain's response to serotonin"references: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12952360&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7550526&dopt=Abstract
Hugs, Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 19, 2003, at 9:54:37
In reply to Re: update (insomnia) » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 19, 2003, at 8:03:25
> Hi Lar,
> I posted this earlier,and thought I had lost it..then found it again on the wrong board.(phew)
> So I've copied it here.
> Hope this is Ok, DrBob?
>
>
>
> Hi Lar,
> Reviewing some of the boxes of my old meds to try to see if any pattern developed re pdrugs (I sometimes scrawl comments on the boxes), I came across some temezepam and wondered why I had been prescribed it back in 99.
>
> I thought it was for insomnia. Until this week I thought "insomnia" meant you couldn't get to sleep, and I was sleeping too much...although noise prevents any restful sleep.> As I've improved the "sleep" quality has changed from something like fighting falling into an unconsiousness to approaching normal sleep, time asleep has lessened also. I think there was a noticeable improvement on adding in tyrosine (and probably magnesium/zinc too in larger doses for a couple of weeks). I'm off them now, but I'm staying awake still :)
> I still need a snooze for about 3 hrs in the day..but getting there.
>
> I have just this week found out on the net that waking during sleep (which I have always done)is ALSO considered insomnia!(type 2)
>
> During the night I also am waking up after only 2 to 4 hrs sleep, although lately I've noticed I no longer feel so wiped out when I do wake up. .. which is good. However, I never seem to get to that REM sleep stage though which is needed for growth hormone etc
>
> I was wondering about temezepam. Do you remember if it gave you a "normal" deeper sleep, and was it prescribed for waking up during sleep a lot..or because you couldn't get to sleep?Both, actually. I wake feeling more restored, and I had been having trouble both with initiating and maintaining sleep. I was having what I called "skipping stone" sleep, brief periods of sleep punctuated by wakefulness.
Temazepam, when used by "normal" people, reduces REM sleep. When used by insomnics, I think it does quite the opposite, but that's an opinion I've formed from anecdotal information (myself and others). I have a friend who was hypersomnic, but totally tired all the time. When she went on temazepam, she began to sleep a more normal 8 hours (rather than her usual 16), and she was rested and clear-headed. I don't think that's unusual, that sort of response.
> I also suspect after the reading this week, that lack of oxygen is a problem as I've got the room closed up due to smoke from fires in winter etc. I often wake up and need fresh air.
There is not going to be an oxygen shortage from being in a closed room, unless it's literally hermetically sealed.
> I read
> "sleep apnea or breath holding can happen when you don't get enough sleep"
> ..a lack of oxygen can reduce growth hormone (and estrogen in women, testosterone in men) "The Goddess Diet" p151..and this changes your energy balance and insulin sensitivity creating a change in your brain's response to serotonin"Funny, I've always attributed the sleep deficit to the apnea, not the other way around. The link to sex hormones is sound, however. Again, I don't think it arises from oxygen starvation, but instead, from changes in brain wave activity associated with wakefulness. The brain just doesn't get to the right stages in the process, because it is constantly interrupted.
> references: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12952360&dopt=Abstract
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7550526&dopt=Abstract
> Hugs, Jan
>
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 19, 2003, at 10:02:27
In reply to Re: update (insomnia) » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 19, 2003, at 8:03:25
From the first one, a quote:
> references: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12952360&dopt=Abstract"A negative correlation between polysomnographic parameters (ODI, minSaO2 and MminSaO2) and testosterone levels was found."
The problem with correlation is that it tells you nothing about the true nature of the relationship between the variables.
There are four possible cases:
1. coincidence (not likely here, IMHO)
2. A leads to B
3. B leads to A
4. Both A and B (and C, here), are caused by an unmeasured variable (call it X).Frankly, my gut instinct is to go with case 4. However, I also think ODI leading to testosterone decrease is a valid hypothesis, and the oxygen parameters could then be coincidental.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7550526&dopt=Abstract
I think this one just suggests that the whole thing is exceedingly complex.
> Hugs, Jan
Hugs, sweetie.
Lar
Posted by tealady on September 19, 2003, at 19:50:30
In reply to Re: update (insomnia) » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 19, 2003, at 9:54:37
>There is not going to be an oxygen shortage from being in a closed room, unless it's literally hermetically sealed.
Hmm, I would have thought so too, but I do find it is "stuffy" sometimes lately when I awake and "feels" like I can't get enough oxygen.
In crowded offices, restaurants etc, I used to get a feeling of not enough oxygen too and had to go to stair wells or feel faint or like I couldn't breathe. Others could see it..I'd look like I was going to faint.... so just thought there MAY be something in it, at least for me.
I'd be fine on floors with not many people working on them...unless they decided to use more recirculated air some days
Always thought air conditioned buildings should have a oxygen or fresh air minimum limit per person..like windows per worker in the factory act in England yonks ago.
For some reason, I think I need more oxygen? If that is what it is?
Probably thyroid related, or lungs
Docs said it was bronchial asthma, or bronchitis or asthma..but only minimal response to asthma meds
> "sleep apnea or breath holding can happen when you don't get enough sleep"
> ..a lack of oxygen can reduce growth hormone (and estrogen in women, testosterone in men) "The Goddess Diet" p151..and this changes your energy balance and insulin sensitivity creating a change in your brain's response to serotonin"
Funny, I've always attributed the sleep deficit to the apnea, not the other way around.me too, guess it's a mistake
>The link to sex hormones is sound, however.
I added the testosterone bit..found the reference when searchingAgain, I don't think it arises from oxygen starvation, but instead, from changes in brain wave activity associated with wakefulness. The brain just doesn't get to the right stages in the process, because it is constantly interrupted.
Strongly agree on the last bit!
IN the next sentence p152, she says "In a study of the relationship between lowered sympathetic nerve activity and obesity, researchers found that we become more sensitive to essential fatty acids when our serotonin levels drop and that makes you not only fat but depressed."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9769705&dopt=Abstract
The MONA LISA hypothesisI wionder what "sensitive to EFA means"...pimples?
Hugs, Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 19, 2003, at 20:22:17
In reply to oxygen » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on September 19, 2003, at 19:50:30
> >There is not going to be an oxygen shortage from being in a closed room, unless it's literally hermetically sealed.
>
> Hmm, I would have thought so too, but I do find it is "stuffy" sometimes lately when I awake and "feels" like I can't get enough oxygen.Allergies/asthma can do that.
> In crowded offices, restaurants etc, I used to get a feeling of not enough oxygen too and had to go to stair wells or feel faint or like I couldn't breathe. Others could see it..I'd look like I was going to faint.... so just thought there MAY be something in it, at least for me.
Sounds something like a panic attack.
> I'd be fine on floors with not many people working on them...unless they decided to use more recirculated air some days
> Always thought air conditioned buildings should have a oxygen or fresh air minimum limit per person..like windows per worker in the factory act in England yonks ago.
> For some reason, I think I need more oxygen? If that is what it is?
> Probably thyroid related, or lungs
> Docs said it was bronchial asthma, or bronchitis or asthma..but only minimal response to asthma medsThere are many different asthma meds. Have you had lung function tests?
> > "sleep apnea or breath holding can happen when you don't get enough sleep"> IN the next sentence p152, she says "In a study of the relationship between lowered sympathetic nerve activity and obesity, researchers found that we become more sensitive to essential fatty acids when our serotonin levels drop and that makes you not only fat but depressed."
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9769705&dopt=Abstract
> The MONA LISA hypothesis
>
> I wionder what "sensitive to EFA means"...pimples?
>
> Hugs, JanI don't know what to make of that quoted sentence. Serotonin receptor sensitivity is decreased in omega-3 deficiency states. So is insulin sensitivity. Is she trying to link these two ideas?
Hugs, eh?
Lar
Posted by tealady on September 20, 2003, at 23:37:23
In reply to Re: oxygen » tealady, posted by Larry Hoover on September 19, 2003, at 20:22:17
> > IN the next sentence p152, she says "In a study of the relationship between lowered sympathetic nerve activity and obesity, researchers found that we become more sensitive to essential fatty acids when our serotonin levels drop and that makes you not only fat but depressed."
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9769705&dopt=Abstract
> > The MONA LISA hypothesis
> >
> > I wonder what "sensitive to EFA means"...pimples?>
> I don't know what to make of that quoted sentence. Serotonin receptor sensitivity is decreased in omega-3 deficiency states. So is insulin sensitivity. Is she trying to link these two ideas?
>here's a part of the article she was referring to
Seems like some at least don't want a 5HT2C receptor antagonist if you want to lose weight???
.... "A number of neuropeptides and monoamines are involved with modulating of food intake and fat stores. Both serotonin, acting through 5-HT2C receptors, and norepinephrine, acting through beta 2 and/or beta 3 receptors, reduce food intake. A variety of peptides also influence food intake and body fat. Neuropeptide Y, dynorphin, galanin, and melanocyte-stimulating hormone all increase food intake. In contrast, a large number of peptides--including cholecystokinin, corticotrophin-releasing hormone/urocortin, enterostatin, insulin, leptin, alpha-MSH, and TRH--reduce food intake. Chronic administration of neuropeptide Y, acting through Y-5 receptors, can produce chronically increased food intake and obesity.
This syndrome is similar to the VMH syndrome and suggests that NPY must be acting as an inhibitor of a feeding system. The melanocortin receptor system may be particularly important because a mouse that does not express MC4 receptors is massively overweight. These central systems modulate food intake and fat stores by the controlled system. Glucocorticoids from the adrenal gland are important in obesity, since adrenalectomy will reverse or prevent the development of all forms of obesity. The sympathetic nervous system is also important because low sympathetic activity is associated with experimental and clinical obesity. The reciprocal relationship between food intake and sympathetic activity has been a robust relationship, suggesting that beta receptors in the periphery or brain may be involved in feeding control. In one model of dietary obesity resulting when animals eat a high-fat diet, the syndrome is blocked by inhibitory adrenal steroid activity. These animals show a lower level of sympathetic activity and a low level of brain serotonin. Finally, they show an enhanced sensitivity to essential fatty acids when these are applied to the tongue or given into the gut.In this chapter, the control of energy stores as fat is viewed as a feedback system. Leptin is perceived as a key afferent signal and glucocorticoids and the sympathetic nervous system through beta receptors as essential elements of this control system."
Jan
PS anyone know why some SSRI's have 5-HT2C antagonists? ..like why try to block that receptor? Is it's function known..other than to help you lose weight perhaps when stimulated by serotonin?
Just asking as this was a common thing with fluoxetine and lexapro, citalopram..if I got it right
Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 21, 2003, at 7:20:38
In reply to Re: oxygen/ 5-HT2C receptor weight gain, posted by tealady on September 20, 2003, at 23:37:23
Hey Jan.
> In this chapter, the control of energy stores as fat is viewed as a feedback system. Leptin is perceived as a key afferent signal and glucocorticoids and the sympathetic nervous system through beta receptors as essential elements of this control system."
>
>
>
> JanTwo things come to mind. The system is incredibly complex. I don't really spend a lot of time trying to understand the complexity. I try to focus on the manipulations that seem to make a difference. She generalizes to high-fat diet, whereas I know that it makes a huge difference which fat, not just total fat. I know fish oil shifts the balance. I don't need to know why, exactly.
We're not laboratory rodents. Not everything translates accurately.
> PS anyone know why some SSRI's have 5-HT2C antagonists? ..like why try to block that receptor?It's a coincidence. They're not trying to target it. They just acknowledge that it is affected, too. Because of individual differences in genes, the relative sensitivity of the different serotonin receptors will be different for each of us. Some people lose weight, some gain weight, on the same drug.
> Is it's function known..other than to help you lose weight perhaps when stimulated by serotonin?
The focus is on mood. Just like sexual side effects, these other effects are trivialized. As *if* they were trivial.
> Just asking as this was a common thing with fluoxetine and lexapro, citalopram..if I got it right
> JanYa.
Lar
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