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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Frog on October 26, 2003, at 9:25:26
Hello ,
In the case of important lack of vitamin C , I would like to know what is the maximum dosage we can take before having any potential problems , I also wish to know how long does it take for the body to retrieve a normal vitamin c rate after taking high dosage of vitamin C (still in the case of big lack of vitamin C).
I suffer from major depression which main symptoms are : extreme psychic fatigue, nearly impossibility to concentrate, energyless 24/7. I have tried nearly all current existing classes of antidepressant (Prozac, Seroxat, Vivalan, Effexor, Ixel, Anafranil, Desipramine, Marsilid) during a sufficient amount of time (4 weeks and even 6 weeks in some cases (Anafranil, Desipramine, Marsilid) with reaching maximum dosage allowed , but noone has ended in a success (even partial).
I did some analysis (one year ago) which has shown an abnormal cortisol secretion in my body but this abnormality was not confirmed in recent analysis I did. However , those same analysis (two weeks ago) show that my vitamin C rate is really low compared to normal rate :
My rate : under 3.0 µmol/l
Normal rate : 26.1 to 84.6 µmol/lThe problem doesn't come from food since it is well balanced .
I am currently taking 2g/day of vitamin C (1g in the morning and the other one in the evening) from the advice of my endocrinologist and I have not seen any enhancement of my state since the beginning (18 days) I am about to see my endocrinologist soon and in the mean time I wish to have information regarding maximum dosage that body can take in the case of the important lack of vitamin c is not caused by food problem .If you have any informations regarding this subject ,please feel free to express yourself, thanks
Regards,
Pierre
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 26, 2003, at 10:35:34
In reply to Vitamin C maximum dosage for important lack ???, posted by Frog on October 26, 2003, at 9:25:26
> Hello ,
>
> In the case of important lack of vitamin C , I would like to know what is the maximum dosage we can take before having any potential problems , I also wish to know how long does it take for the body to retrieve a normal vitamin c rate after taking high dosage of vitamin C (still in the case of big lack of vitamin C).There are two ways that vitamin C enters the body from the digestive tract, active transport and passive diffusion. The first, the active uptake, is readily saturated by high doses. In other words, there's a limited capacity for absorption by this route, perhaps 100 mg/day. At the dose you're taking, it's been estimated that maybe as much as 50% of the excess (when the active transporter is saturated) might simple diffuse into the blood.
The amount that stays in the digestive tract is an irritant. It's generally accepted that doses of 3 grams per day or more may cause diarrhea, but you can build up tolerance over time. I know people who take much more than that, but I don't know if that's a good idea. Your body can become very wasteful when the supply of vitamin C is overly abundant, and you can get what's called reactive scurvy if you suddenly decrease the supply.
> I suffer from major depression which main symptoms are : extreme psychic fatigue, nearly impossibility to concentrate, energyless 24/7. I have tried nearly all current existing classes of antidepressant (Prozac, Seroxat, Vivalan, Effexor, Ixel, Anafranil, Desipramine, Marsilid) during a sufficient amount of time (4 weeks and even 6 weeks in some cases (Anafranil, Desipramine, Marsilid) with reaching maximum dosage allowed , but noone has ended in a success (even partial).
That's unfortunate.
> I did some analysis (one year ago) which has shown an abnormal cortisol secretion in my body but this abnormality was not confirmed in recent analysis I did. However , those same analysis (two weeks ago) show that my vitamin C rate is really low compared to normal rate :
>
> My rate : under 3.0 µmol/l
> Normal rate : 26.1 to 84.6 µmol/lThat's a serious deficiency. Did you have your kidney function checked, too? Your kidneys might be wasting nutrients.
> The problem doesn't come from food since it is well balanced .You could have malabsorption.
> I am currently taking 2g/day of vitamin C (1g in the morning and the other one in the evening) from the advice of my endocrinologist and I have not seen any enhancement of my state since the beginning (18 days) I am about to see my endocrinologist soon and in the mean time I wish to have information regarding maximum dosage that body can take in the case of the important lack of vitamin c is not caused by food problem .
There are three possible reasons I can think of why your blood concentration of vitamin C has not come up.
1. kidney problems....your kidneys are not protecting vitamin C from excretion in urine.
2. malabsorption....as from celiac sprue, or other inflammatory intestinal disorder.
3. the timing of the bloodwork, relative to the dose of vitamin C. It's possible that your tissues are so starved for vitamin C that most of it has already been taken up from the blood before the blood test is done.I'm guessing.
If you don't get diarrhea from it, there's no reason not to try increasing your daily intake of vitamin C even further.
> If you have any informations regarding this subject ,please feel free to express yourself, thanks
>
>
> Regards,
> Pierre
>I know English is not your first language, but there is a very complete reference here:
http://books.nap.edu/books/0309069351/html/95.html#pagetop
Good luck,
Lar
Posted by Frog on October 26, 2003, at 16:53:35
In reply to Re: Vitamin C maximum dosage for important lack ??? » Frog, posted by Larry Hoover on October 26, 2003, at 10:35:34
Hello Larry,
> There are two ways that vitamin C enters the body from the digestive tract, active transport and passive diffusion. The first, the active uptake, is >readily saturated by high doses. In other words, there's a limited capacity for absorption by this route, perhaps 100 mg/day. At the dose you're >taking, it's been estimated that maybe as much as 50% of the excess (when the active transporter is saturated) might simple diffuse into the blood.
> The amount that stays in the digestive tract is an irritant. It's generally accepted that doses of 3 grams per day or more may cause diarrhea, but you >can build up tolerance over time. I know people who take much more than that, but I don't know if that's a good idea. Your body can become very >wasteful when the supply of vitamin C is overly abundant, and you can get what's called reactive scurvy if you suddenly decrease the supply.Thanks for your explanation , I understand better now how vitamin C works in the body.
> That's a serious deficiency. Did you have your kidney function checked, too? Your kidneys might be wasting nutrients.
When you speak about “kidney function checked” , do you refer to SGOT(ASAT) ,SGPT(ALAT), GGT analysis ? If so , yes it has been checked and there is nothing wrong regarding results obtained.
> There are three possible reasons I can think of why your blood concentration of vitamin C has not come up.
> 1. kidney problems....your kidneys are not protecting vitamin C from excretion in urine.
> 2. malabsorption....as from celiac sprue, or other inflammatory intestinal disorder.
> 3. the timing of the bloodwork, relative to the dose of vitamin C. It's possible that your tissues are so starved for vitamin C that most of it has >already been taken up from the blood before the blood test is done.I think that second and third choice (from what you have written) could be the cause of the problem and I guess that my endocrinologist will make me do further blood test to explore those ways.
> If you don't get diarrhea from it, there's no reason not to try increasing your daily intake of vitamin C even further.Yea you are right , and even if I would get diarrhea I would consider it as a weak side effect compared to what I have experienced with some antidepressant I have taken.
> I know English is not your first language, but there is a very complete reference here:
> http://books.nap.edu/books/0309069351/html/95.html#pagetop
>
> Good luck,
> LarThanks very much for this link(and no problem with english) , it so far the best complete one I have seen on the web. Some studies detailed in this reference mention intake of 10g/day , so it reassures me since this could become my daily dosage in the future.
I will do a blood test tomorrow morning to see how my body has reacted after taking 2g daily during 18 days.
Thanks again for your support
Regards,
Pierre
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 1, 2003, at 9:34:42
In reply to Re: Vitamin C maximum dosage for important lack ???, posted by Frog on October 26, 2003, at 16:53:35
Sorry for the delay in responding. I've been tied up.
> Hello Larry,
>
> > There are two ways that vitamin C enters the body from the digestive tract, active transport and passive diffusion. The first, the active uptake, is >readily saturated by high doses. In other words, there's a limited capacity for absorption by this route, perhaps 100 mg/day. At the dose you're >taking, it's been estimated that maybe as much as 50% of the excess (when the active transporter is saturated) might simple diffuse into the blood.
> > The amount that stays in the digestive tract is an irritant. It's generally accepted that doses of 3 grams per day or more may cause diarrhea, but you >can build up tolerance over time. I know people who take much more than that, but I don't know if that's a good idea. Your body can become very >wasteful when the supply of vitamin C is overly abundant, and you can get what's called reactive scurvy if you suddenly decrease the supply.
>
> Thanks for your explanation , I understand better now how vitamin C works in the body.
>
> > That's a serious deficiency. Did you have your kidney function checked, too? Your kidneys might be wasting nutrients.
>
> When you speak about “kidney function checked” , do you refer to SGOT(ASAT) ,SGPT(ALAT), GGT analysis ?Those are liver enzymes. Kidney function is urinalysis, as measured by creatine clearance, BUN, protein.
> If so , yes it has been checked and there is nothing wrong regarding results obtained.
Good.
> > There are three possible reasons I can think of why your blood concentration of vitamin C has not come up.
> > 1. kidney problems....your kidneys are not protecting vitamin C from excretion in urine.
> > 2. malabsorption....as from celiac sprue, or other inflammatory intestinal disorder.
> > 3. the timing of the bloodwork, relative to the dose of vitamin C. It's possible that your tissues are so starved for vitamin C that most of it has >already been taken up from the blood before the blood test is done.
>
> I think that second and third choice (from what you have written) could be the cause of the problem and I guess that my endocrinologist will make me do further blood test to explore those ways.Didn't occur to me at the time, but there's quite another reason why your vitamin C might be horridly low......selenium deficiency. Are you European? Severe deficiencies in selenium intake are geographically distributed, and relatively common in Europe in general, and specific regions more particularly.
Selenium is a key component of the glutathione peroxidase enzyme (four atoms per enzyme molecule). Vitamin C is normally recycled by this enzyme. Vitamin C will be used up quite quickly if you're selenium deficient. If selenium is at the heart of your problem, you'll also benefit from fish oil.
> > If you don't get diarrhea from it, there's no reason not to try increasing your daily intake of vitamin C even further.
>
> Yea you are right , and even if I would get diarrhea I would consider it as a weak side effect compared to what I have experienced with some antidepressant I have taken.Add in selenium. At least 200 micrograms per day. Selenium deficiency is a physiological cause of depression. It also is related to fatigue, as thyroid dysfunction occurs in selenium deficiency. Blood tests may or may not show normal selenium levels, even in selenium deficient individuals, as blood levels may reflect recent dietary intake rather than general levels in the body.
> > I know English is not your first language, but there is a very complete reference here:
> > http://books.nap.edu/books/0309069351/html/95.html#pagetop
> >
> > Good luck,
> > Lar
>
> Thanks very much for this link(and no problem with english) , it so far the best complete one I have seen on the web. Some studies detailed in this reference mention intake of 10g/day , so it reassures me since this could become my daily dosage in the future.At that website, you can bring up information on many other nutrients by running a search using TDI and RDI as search terms.
> I will do a blood test tomorrow morning to see how my body has reacted after taking 2g daily during 18 days.
>
> Thanks again for your support
> Regards,
> PierreKeep us informed, okay?
Lar
Posted by Frog on November 10, 2003, at 17:17:23
In reply to Re: Vitamin C maximum dosage for important lack ??? » Frog, posted by Larry Hoover on November 1, 2003, at 9:34:42
Hi Lar,
Sorry for the delay of my answer
I am only answering now because I was waiting for the results of my last "vitamin c" blood test.
In my previous message , I was telling you that my liver enzymes analysis was ok and then you told me that "Kidney function is urinalysis, as measured by creatine clearance" and I remember now that I had a "creatine clearance" analysis from last september.My results were :
8.47nmol/24h (Normal rate : 13,3 to 22,1 nmol/24h)
0.96 g/24h (Normal rate : 1.5 to 2.5 g/24h)This result comes from 1.5L urine 24h analysis , I have to precise that the bottle was filled regularly but not all my urine was in it since the bottle was not big enough (1.5L capacity) , so a small portion was not in but I think the most important was that I did it regularly during 24 hours .
Regarding vitamin c analysis , I forgot to mention something that may be interesting .The laboratory where I did the blood test told me they were not performing analysis of vitamin c themselves and they will send my blood to another laboratory(let's call it lab "B") , but the lab "B" didn't perform vitamin c analysis too , so my blood was finally send to another laboratory which performs this analysis. So , could my low rate vitamin c be explained by the fact that my blood went through several laboratories before being analysed , I mean the fact that it took some time had maybe had effects on blood content ? what do you think ?
My personnal opinion is that tubes that contains blood are supposed to be well closed normally.After two weeks with taking vitamin C supplement (2g/day) , I did another test in another laboratory (from the paper , it seems my blood was also forwarded to another laboratory) and my result were :
My rate : 75mcmol/l
Normal rate : 28 to 57 mcmol/lSo , my vitamin C went back to normal , but I have not felt any change at all , I am still experiencing extreme fatigue 24/7 , low energy........and all the bad things that depression brings with it.
I was thinking of increasing much greater my daily vitamin C intake (currently at 2g/day) but I just read your advice regarding selenium supplement so I think I should give it a try but I must be sure that my 1st result of low vitamin c was not a mistake.
I am about to see my endocrinologist next monday and will keep you informed about what I am going to do.Thanks again for your help
Regards,
Pierre
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 15, 2003, at 6:48:31
In reply to Re: Vitamin C maximum dosage for important lack ??? » Larry Hoover, posted by Frog on November 10, 2003, at 17:17:23
> Hi Lar,
>
> Sorry for the delay of my answer
> I am only answering now because I was waiting for the results of my last "vitamin c" blood test.
> In my previous message , I was telling you that my liver enzymes analysis was ok and then you told me that "Kidney function is urinalysis, as measured by creatine clearance" and I remember now that I had a "creatine clearance" analysis from last september.
>
> My results were :
>
> 8.47nmol/24h (Normal rate : 13,3 to 22,1 nmol/24h)
> 0.96 g/24h (Normal rate : 1.5 to 2.5 g/24h)Your kidneys aren't working properly. What did your doctor say about these results?
> This result comes from 1.5L urine 24h analysis , I have to precise that the bottle was filled regularly but not all my urine was in it since the bottle was not big enough (1.5L capacity) , so a small portion was not in but I think the most important was that I did it regularly during 24 hours .
What you describe would have made the results lower than they should have been, but I still think your kidney function is sub-optimal.
> Regarding vitamin c analysis , I forgot to mention something that may be interesting .The laboratory where I did the blood test told me they were not performing analysis of vitamin c themselves and they will send my blood to another laboratory(let's call it lab "B") , but the lab "B" didn't perform vitamin c analysis too , so my blood was finally send to another laboratory which performs this analysis. So , could my low rate vitamin c be explained by the fact that my blood went through several laboratories before being analysed , I mean the fact that it took some time had maybe had effects on blood content ? what do you think ?
> My personnal opinion is that tubes that contains blood are supposed to be well closed normally.I think that if the blood was handled properly, the results would be accurate.
> After two weeks with taking vitamin C supplement (2g/day) , I did another test in another laboratory (from the paper , it seems my blood was also forwarded to another laboratory) and my result were :
>
> My rate : 75mcmol/l
> Normal rate : 28 to 57 mcmol/lSo, this means you're absorbing vitamin C well, and you actually have more than the reference value in your blood.
> So , my vitamin C went back to normal , but I have not felt any change at all , I am still experiencing extreme fatigue 24/7 , low energy........and all the bad things that depression brings with it.It's generally more complex than just a vitamin C deficiency. Before you're through with figuring out what's useful for you, you may find yourself taking many different supplements together. That's my experience, anyway.
> I was thinking of increasing much greater my daily vitamin C intake (currently at 2g/day)
You don't need to do that.
> but I just read your advice regarding selenium supplement so I think I should give it a try but I must be sure that my 1st result of low vitamin c was not a mistake.
I don't think it's relevant any more. Your second test shows that your vitamin C intake is better than adequate.
> I am about to see my endocrinologist next monday and will keep you informed about what I am going to do.
>
> Thanks again for your help
>
> Regards,
> PierreYou're welcome.
Lar
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